The band Phish has toured for over 40 years. One of the draws of their legendary live shows—which can go on for 8 hours—is finding moments of “flow,” when the band members lock into an improvised jam, finding new musical ideas in real time.

Phish fans live for these transcendent moments, but so do the musicians—to the point that Mike Gordon, the band’s bass player, is funding scientific research to better understand flow state.

In November 2025, Host Flora Lichtman sat down with Mike and his research collaborator, neuroscientist Greg Appelbaum, to unpack their research so far and how it’s helping to inform other neuroscience.

Guests:

Mike Gordon is bassist and co-founder of the seminal improvisational rock band Phish.

Dr. Greg Appelbaum is a professor in the department of psychiatry at the University of California, San Diego.

A transcript for this episode is available at sciencefriday.com.

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