← Science of Perception Box
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- [00:01]
Dr. Christoph Koch
If you have been a longtime follower of Dr. Helen Fisher's work, you may have already learned the sad news that she passed away in August of 2024.
- [00:09]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Helen was a dear colleague, friend, and mentor. She was a pioneer in anthropology and we'll miss her very much.
- [00:18]
Dr. Christoph Koch
We're grateful to have recorded this interview with her a few months before her passing.
- [00:23]
Dr. Heather Berlin
We hope that this conversation honors her legacy of foundational research on the human circuitry of love and attraction.
- [00:33]
Dr. Helen Fisher
They pine for love, they live for love, they kill for love, and they die for love.
- [00:40]
Elizabeth Koch
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Koch. We all live inside our own personal, private perception box built by our genes and the physical, social and cultural environment in which we were born and raised. In this podcast, we explore how although the walls of this mental box are always, they can expand in states like awe, wonder and curiosity, or contract in response to anxiety, fear and anger. I'd like to introduce our esteemed hosts, two incredible and distinguished minds, Dr. Heather Berlin, professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City, and Dr. Christoph Koch, chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot foundation and the current meritorious investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science. Welcome to the Science of Perception Box.
- [01:46]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Hi everyone. Welcome to Science of Perception Box. I'm your co host, Dr. Heather Berlin.
- [01:52]
Dr. Christoph Koch
And I'm your co host, Dr. Christoph Koch.
- [01:55]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Every week we feature an aspect of the Science of Perception Box, highlighting the latest research together with our experts, expert guests. And this week on Science of Perception Box, we explore the powerful forces of love and heartbreak in the brain. I cannot imagine a more groundbreaking and qualified researcher to explore this topic with on the show than Dr. Helen Fisher. Dr. Helen Fisher is a biological anthropologist. She's conducted extensive research on the evolution, biology and psychology of human sexuality, monogamy, adultery and divorce. She can also speak to the neural chemistry of romantic love and attachment, why we fall in love with one person rather than another, plus all the current trends of human relationships, hooking up friends with benefits, and online dating, to name a few. Dr. Fisher is a senior research Fellow at the Kinsey Institute at Indiana University and the Chief science advisor to the Internet dating site match.com. she's also written six books including Anatomy of Love, why We Love and why him, why Her? And and if you've ever had a heartbreak or had a hard time falling in love, or even if you're happily head over heels, you're going to want to hear this. First, we want to open it up with our connection to love. So Christophe has the experience of love or the experience of heartbreak changed your perception box?
- [03:32]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Well, it changes everything because love fundamentally changes what I perceive, which is my reality, which is the only thing I know about the world. So it changes it in untold ways. Both the beginning of love as well. If love ends and suddenly reality changes, the very same reality appears very, very different.
- [03:50]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And it changes for you. In what way?
- [03:53]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Well, early on, you know, everything is sort of. The world is in fluorescent color, everything's intoxicated. You need much less sleep, you're hyper excited. You know, you constantly think about the person you love. You're obsessed with him or her. And then when you fall out of love or when there's a breakup, the very same things that were attracted attractive, they turn into opposite. They turn like, oh, I hate this thing about her, I hate this habit. But it's still the same person and the same reality. It just appears very different. So I think it's a beautiful instance of this construction we call the perception block that our mind and our brain constructs what we perceive to be reality. Love shows how it can dramatically change more than anything else on the planet.
- [04:38]
Dr. Heather Berlin
It's almost like when you're falling in love, it's your perception box is expanding and when you're falling out of love or been heartbroken, it's.
- [04:45]
Dr. Christoph Koch
It contracts.
- [04:46]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yes, there's this great scene in this film, 500 Days of Summer, which takes you through the sort of falling in love phase and then the breakup phase. And you know, in the beginning he's like, oh, I love her little heart shaped mole on her neck and the way she eats and this and that. And then by the end they're broken up. I hate that horrible blotch on her neck and the sound she makes when she chops her food. And you know, so it's the same stimuli, but you see it in two different ways. So Helen, do you have any insight into this and why, you know, why does our perception change when we're falling in love, when we're falling out of love, when we've been rejected?
- [05:25]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Well, the brain changes and you know, you see the world differently. You know, the opposite of love is not hate. They run along most a lot of the same channels. The opposite of love is indifference. That's when you're free.
- [05:36]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Wow, that's really a really poignant point because when you break up and you have all the anger and you hate, you're equally focused.
- [05:43]
Dr. Helen Fisher
You wake up thinking about it. You go to bed thinking about it. You run through all of the day and what you used to love and why you can't stand it now. And all you go through all that, you know, I mean, when you hate somebody, you spend the same amount of energy as when you love them, perhaps even more. I mean, people, what, they pine for love, they live for love, they kill for love, and they die for love. I think it's mankind's most powerful drive. It's a drive. I found that in the brain. It comes from the lowest centers of the brain. In fact, the basic factory, the ventral tegmental area, which I'm sure you both know about. The VTA makes the dopamine that gives you that focus, the motivation, the craving, the thing. And it lies right next to the factory that orchestrates thirst and hunger. Thirst and hunger keep you alive today. Romantic love drives you to form a partnership and send your DNA into tomorrow. And so, of course, when you're rejected in love, you've lost that opportunity to send your DNA into tomorrow. I mean, people will say, you know, why don't we get over this? You know? And the bottom line is that, I mean, when. When you're dumped, you've certainly. I mean, you may have lost your children, the cat, the dog, the neighbors, the rituals of Christmas or Hanukkah or something else, but what you really lost, if you're not married to the person and you're planning to marry them, you've lost your ability to send your DNA into tomorrow.
- [07:16]
Dr. Christoph Koch
So the function of love is ultimately progeny, allowing you to send your DNA down to the next generation.
- [07:26]
Dr. Helen Fisher
I mean, you wouldn't ask anybody on the street. They wouldn't say that. They say they wouldn't. Well, the other thing is that if you're actually married to somebody and you have children, you've lost mankind's greatest prize, a mating partner.
- [07:39]
Dr. Heather Berlin
I mean, we still. People fall in love in and out of love, well past the point of. For women, when they can even have children. So is this program just. It's a remnant. It just keeps running.
- [07:50]
Dr. Helen Fisher
You know, I remember sitting down on a Saturday morning, summer, the windows were all up, and I thought, why would this brain circuitry remain? I mean, the point is lost. But then I thought, it's lost after.
- [08:03]
Dr. Christoph Koch
I've had already children.
- [08:05]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yeah. And then I've reasoned. I don't think there's any science answer, but I reasoned, well, I do know that a good relationship with somebody enables you to live five to 10 years longer. And now it would be very adaptive. I'm an anthropologist, as you know, in hunting and gathering societies to Somebody who's way past reproduction. The possibility of reproducing to have a partner who likes you, who you love, that will be supportive as you get older, help you if you get sick. And sex is very good for the body. Romance is very good for the body. Feelings of deep attachment are all, for different reasons, extremely good for your health. And so my hypothesis is that we sustain this powerful brain system throughout life. I was once with an audience and I asked, does anybody have a child who's in love? A woman raised her hand and she told me. She said, yeah, my son is. You know, every single time a particular little girl comes over, he just sort of sits next to her and strokes her hair. And he seems depressed for an hour and a half afterwards. So I asked her, I said, well, how old is your child? And the mother said, two and a half. It's not the sex drive. It's a different brain system. And I certainly know somebody today who's in his 90s. So it's a powerful brain system that is good for your health as well as reproduction.
- [09:34]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Now, what about compassion? Is it also possible that we can. That once it's had its function to procreate and generate the next generation, you can then channel it into compassion? Not just for a single individual, but. But maybe for all of humanity, all of creation?
- [09:51]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yeah, I think so. Well, first of all, we're talking about three things. Sex drive being one system, feelings of romantic love being the second, and feelings of deep attachment being the third. And I think they all evolve basically for reproduction. Well, this sex drive, you can have sex with a lot of people you're not in love with. You're just trying things out, learning things. Romantic love is focused on only one person and can drive you to attachment. And with the attachment, a third brain system within, you know, so they're all.
- [10:23]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Why do you need romantic love? Why can't you just go directly to the attachment?
- [10:28]
Dr. Helen Fisher
I think a lot of people do. Kids in college all the time, where it's people at work, they are deeply attached to people, but they're both married to somebody else. And da, da, da, da. And then things change.
- [10:41]
Dr. Christoph Koch
And you can't have one without the other.
- [10:43]
Dr. Helen Fisher
You know, it's amazing. And you can have sex without the other two. And you can have romantic love without feelings of attachment. You can be madly in love with somebody and have no plan to marry them. They're not the right kind of person. Could never introduce them to my friends. There's some basic things about them that I couldn't live with. Forever, et cetera, et cetera. You know, people make this mistake all the time. They assume, well, first you still have the sex, then you get the romantic love, and then you move into attachment. They're not phases, they're brain systems. And you can start being madly in love with somebody in the office long before you have sex with them. You know, you can have sex with somebody and never fall in love with them. And you can have a deep attachment for somebody, and then times change, so their brain changes.
- [11:30]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Would that be like a friendship, though, would it? Just attachment without romantic love or sex. It's like friendship, right?
- [11:35]
Dr. Helen Fisher
It's friendship. And I think you can be madly in love with your children.
- [11:40]
Dr. Christoph Koch
That helps you overcome the teenager years.
- [11:44]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And the toddler years and all the years.
- [11:47]
Dr. Helen Fisher
For example, you've got small children. You're madly in love with them. You can't see that the kid has three heads, is a bully, is a whole lot of things you're in love with, but you don't want to have sex with them.
- [11:57]
Dr. Heather Berlin
The Greeks talked about all these different types of love. You know, there's love of child, there's love of your partner, and there's different types of love. But what you're saying is that there's similar brain systems that are involved.
- [12:08]
Dr. Helen Fisher
There's three brain systems that are involved in all six of them. It's very interesting because, as you know, I work with match.com I ask all the time, what are you looking for? That's one of the questions. Every year, I and a couple colleagues cook up about 200 questions. And some are trend questions that I ask every time, and some are new questions. The newest ones I can't wait to tell you about is AI and also polyamory and even Roe v. Wade. But I always ask the question, we always ask the question, what are you looking for?
- [12:46]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Do people know? Is that part of the problem that people don't know what they're looking for?
- [12:50]
Dr. Helen Fisher
They do know. I give them about 30 boxes to check. And every year we would look at the boxes every single year, except after the pandemic, every single year. We got this in 19. We started in 2010. So we got data on 75,000Americans. We don't poll the match population. It's a national representative sample based on the U.S. census. And so it's age 18 to 71 plus rural, suburban, urban, every part of the country, gay, straight, and everything in the middle.
- [13:25]
Dr. Christoph Koch
So what's the most consistent finding since 2010?
- [13:29]
Dr. Helen Fisher
The top 1 that singles have wanted all over America is Respect, that's number one. Number two is somebody who I can trust and confide in. Number three is somebody who makes me laugh, which drives up the dopamine system, makes you feel good, also can get you over rough spots. Four is somebody who makes enough time for me. And five is somebody I find physically attractive. So those are the babies.
- [13:58]
Dr. Christoph Koch
That's only number five.
- [14:00]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Those are the.
- [14:01]
Dr. Christoph Koch
In the physical attacker. And it gone down, not number one or two?
- [14:04]
Dr. Helen Fisher
No, it's gone down from five to about seven or eight. And the next two are somebody who's emotionally mature and somebody who is a good person. Convert.
- [14:19]
Dr. Heather Berlin
I was like, what about being emotionally available, being a good person, being kind, you know, Those would be my top ones.
- [14:26]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Oh, they're in there.
- [14:27]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah. They're just not.
- [14:29]
Dr. Helen Fisher
No, they want respect. They want somebody who can trust and confide in. They want to make somebody who makes them laugh. Somebody who makes enough time for them, particularly in this modern world, is something.
- [14:41]
Dr. Christoph Koch
So are they looking for a single person to fulfill all of those needs or are they looking for multiple independent people?
- [14:46]
Dr. Helen Fisher
I think sometimes they don't get any of them. The system for romantic love takes off. And when you're madly in love with somebody, whole brain regions linked with decision making go down.
- [15:01]
Dr. Heather Berlin
So you become irrational. Because I want to talk just a little bit about how our perception changes in these different phases of love. So there's the first, the phase of the falling in love, the, you know, like infatuation.
- [15:12]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Infatuation is not always the first phase. It could start with attachment, go to sex, go to friends with benefits, and then boom, the brain circuitry. It's like a sleeping cat can be awakened at any time.
- [15:24]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And we call that. We call that. You're calling that the romantic love.
- [15:26]
Dr. Helen Fisher
I call that romantic love.
- [15:28]
Dr. Heather Berlin
So when, when, when that hits, it.
- [15:29]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Can also happen on the first.
- [15:30]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah, it could be love at first sight. When people are.
- [15:32]
Dr. Helen Fisher
It can be. And by the way, when I asked that question, over 50, about 55% of men have experienced love on first sight. Love at first sight. And about 49 or so women. Women are the picky sex. Men fall in love faster. They fall in love more often. When they meet somebody that they are in love with, they want to introduce them to friends and family sooner, which from an ethological perspective is mate guarding. They want to move in sooner. And men are two and a half times more likely to kill themselves when a relationship is over. Men are the fragile sex. I have been trying to say that to the women I love that for 40 years. They're dedicated on the fragile sex.
- [16:16]
Dr. Christoph Koch
No, wait. Men are two and a half times more likely to commit suicide.
- [16:21]
Dr. Heather Berlin
We do the job of pretending it. Men are the fragile sex. Kristoff got a little disturbed by that. But yes, this is true.
- [16:27]
Dr. Helen Fisher
And I try to tell people one of the most astounding thing that pieces that have data that I collected once again this a year ago for Match Not Match members was I put in a question which is about one night stands. Have you had them? And then the next question is, why do you have them? And men are two times more wanting to get going into a one night stand, hoping to trigger a longer relationship with the person.
- [17:01]
Dr. Heather Berlin
See, we never would have thought that, right? No.
- [17:03]
Dr. Helen Fisher
And I say this to people and they look at me and say, I'm not sure. And I said, I'm telling you, I don't think we understand men and I don't think we understand women.
- [17:14]
Dr. Heather Berlin
We don't. Yeah. Well, we're trying. Yes, we're trying sometimes.
- [17:17]
Dr. Christoph Koch
So the idea is that somehow if I have sex with this person, then in myself I hope that this is gonna trigger this feeling of being in love. Is that the idea?
- [17:26]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yes.
- [17:27]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And sometimes it happens by accident. You go into something thinking it's going to be a one night stand.
- [17:31]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Exactly.
- [17:32]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And then suddenly you're like, oh, what, I'm attached? Or I'm feeling feelings for this person.
- [17:36]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Right. Quick sex is dangerous.
- [17:39]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yes. It's a risky preparation. Not just because of STDs.
- [17:43]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yeah. But because you can fall in love with this person who you had no intention of liking. You know, when my husband, we were just beginning to, you know, get serious and he said to me at the.
- [17:58]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Time, he wasn't your husband.
- [18:00]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Oh no. We went out for five years before we married. We went out for just a year. He was getting over a horrible, horrible divorce. And so he said, I can't handle it, Helen. We'll have to be just friends. And I said, I'm happy. I'll do that. I mean, we'll see what happens. She's like, so anyway, so he kissed me. And I had made a deal with him. Actually that night I was tired of this all giving me a hug on the way home. Let's take it there been a year I wanted to either move on or get off the. You know. So anyway, so I made a deal with him. I don't know what came over me. We were having dinner and then we were gonna walk the high line in New York and then play pool. And I pulled my little cocktail napkin Out. And I said, what. What do you want to get secretly if you win at pool? And I wrote down on my little card a real kiss. And I didn't know anything. So anyway, we get to play pool. He creams me. I played pool like five times in my life. He grew up with a pool table in his basement. What he said in his thing was sex and clarity.
- [19:14]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Wow.
- [19:14]
Dr. Christoph Koch
But that was unbeknownst to you.
- [19:16]
Dr. Helen Fisher
I had no idea. So after playing Pu'u, I pull this, his napkin out, and it says sex and clarity. And I said, well, I get the sex part, but what do you have in mind for clarity? And he wanted friends with benefits. And I said to him, you know, I study love, and when you start having sex with somebody, you can trigger the brain circuitry for romantic love. Are you willing to take that chance? And.
- [19:44]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And was he clear? He was clear about that.
- [19:48]
Dr. Helen Fisher
So I married him at age 75. And I love that.
- [19:51]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Congratulations. Congratulations. So since you're in that relationship, do you think sort of your. We would say, has your perception box expanded? Are you more curious, more compassionate? Are you more open with him? Does the world look different fundamentally to.
- [20:06]
Dr. Heather Berlin
You when you're in love and you're in a committed.
- [20:08]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Well, in this particular case, no. I always felt the compassion. I always felt the energy. I was always in love with him. I never was gonna leave that boy.
- [20:18]
Dr. Heather Berlin
There is something about, I think, making that commitment public or whatever, you know, putting that stamp on it, that can change your perception of this person. Cause now it's sort of known to the world as well.
- [20:29]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Right.
- [20:29]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Cause you're establishing that. You're saying to your community, we are committed. It does change your perception and it does. You know, just calling someone your.
- [20:37]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Just a realer.
- [20:38]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah. It's like calling someone your wife or your husband. There's just some other. There's a weight to that. There's something that we've.
- [20:46]
Dr. Helen Fisher
There's weight to it.
- [20:47]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah. And that changes your perception of their relationship. I want to make sure we touch on these two things, one of which is what happens in the. When. When there's rejection or when you're broken up with, or you break up and you're falling out of love and how that changes your perception. And then I also want to talk about your concept of slow love and how the Internet is changing things and AI and what that means for love. But let's start with the rejection, because, I mean, I'm both a neuroscientist and a clinical psychologist, and I work with patients and a lot of the time, they're dealing with heartbreak. And they come to me because they're just broken, in so much pain. I mean, they can't get out of bed, they can't go to work. You know, so what is this? What's happening in the brain? And, you know, they. They can't seem to get out of it.
- [21:35]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Right?
- [21:36]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah.
- [21:36]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Okay. For me, it's my largest contribution to humanity. It's very nice to be madly in love and have somebody happily in love with you. You're not a pest. You're not talking about it to everybody. And, you know, you're not killing yourself, you're not killing somebody else. You're in good shape. But when you're rejected, in love, that very thing. So anyway, I decided I would put people who have just been dumped into the machine when they're still. They have not overcome it yet. They have not gotten to indifference.
- [22:08]
Dr. Christoph Koch
How do you find these people? Internet.
- [22:10]
Dr. Helen Fisher
It is so easy. You go to colleges or you talk to people, and they want to figure out how they get out of this. So they come to me. I leave my number. I have never used the Internet, actually. It's a. On college campuses. And then through people that you know. And I said, do you know anybody who's madly. I mean, is horribly rejected? Oh, yes, my sister hasn't been out of bed for three days. That kind of thing. And then I said, well, would you be willing to help science? And instantly they want to talk to me. And that's very hard. I cry when other people cry, you know, And I'm not a psychologist like you. We talk a good deal on the phone. These machines are very hard to get and takes a lot of time. You've got to get people who are really, really suffering. And they are really suffering. So anyway, we put them in the machine, and this is what happens in the brain. The ventral tegmental area still cooking along. You're still madly in love with the person you've just been dumped.
- [23:11]
Dr. Heather Berlin
So it's the producing dopamine and the.
- [23:14]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Producing dopamine for the focus, the motivation. Losing weight.
- [23:19]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Before we come to that, what's the actual experiment? Do you show them pictures?
- [23:23]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Okay, I show them two pictures. I asked, bring a picture of the man that you're in love with. Not sex. We're not studying the sex drive. Not a sexy picture, but a picture that instantly makes you feel that intense romance. And I also say to them, bring in another picture of somebody basically the same age group and a control. A control. And people bring in somebody they knew in college who bored them silly or some girlfriend's boyfriend who you just. But the person has to. You have to have no positive feelings about the person and no negative feelings.
- [24:06]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Like a neutral person. You have a neutral person and then the person you were just broken up with.
- [24:11]
Dr. Helen Fisher
And the problem with going at this and this is that when you're madly in love, you can't stop thinking about a person.
- [24:18]
Dr. Heather Berlin
So bleed over it.
- [24:19]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Bleed over it and do other. So we did a distraction task and I would put a number on the screen, like 8224. And they would have to look at that picture of the number, number and think backwards in threes. Seven sevens.
- [24:39]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah.
- [24:39]
Dr. Christoph Koch
That's odd. It's definitely.
- [24:41]
Dr. Helen Fisher
And I say, I don't care if you get it right or wrong, just do it right, because it'll drive all the blood away from these very emotional areas.
- [24:49]
Dr. Heather Berlin
So what do you see, though? So you see when they're pining. And so the VTA is still active.
- [24:54]
Dr. Helen Fisher
The VTA is going on. So they're pumping out the dopamine and they can't eat and they can't sleep and they can't stop thinking about it and this and that. And also part of the pallidum, the nihilos.
- [25:03]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Ventral pallidum.
- [25:04]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yes.
- [25:04]
Dr. Heather Berlin
In the basal ganglia.
- [25:05]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's all in the basal ganglia. And. And it's associated with attachment. And that list lit up three areas linked with addiction.
- [25:18]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Right.
- [25:19]
Dr. Helen Fisher
And the largest one is the nucleus accumbens. And for other people listening, the nucleus accumbens becomes active for all of the addictions.
- [25:31]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Sometimes they call it the pleasure center.
- [25:33]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Of the brain, the opioid addiction, alcohol.
- [25:35]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Addiction, cigarettes, alcohol, gambling, the behavioral addictions, and also the, you know, the others.
- [25:44]
Dr. Christoph Koch
So you're equating certain aspect of being in love with addiction.
- [25:50]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And then with.
- [25:51]
Dr. Helen Fisher
I have said that in many academic papers, it is an addiction. I think it's actually the most powerful addiction of the addictions.
- [25:59]
Dr. Christoph Koch
But it's an adaptive addiction. Right. It's useful for evolution.
- [26:02]
Dr. Helen Fisher
It's very useful until you've been dumped.
- [26:08]
Dr. Heather Berlin
So then it's literally like withdrawal you're going through.
- [26:11]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Oh, absolutely. Well, also, there's an area for pain, physical pain. It's exactly the same area in the brain that you get the pain of a toothache. And what's most interesting.
- [26:25]
Dr. Heather Berlin
So it's a physical pain, that.
- [26:26]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Physical pain.
- [26:27]
Dr. Christoph Koch
It feels like pain.
- [26:28]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:29]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Subjectively, it's still pain whether it's physical or.
- [26:32]
Dr. Heather Berlin
But you're also seeing. Yeah.
- [26:34]
Dr. Helen Fisher
And most Interesting to me, one of these three areas linked with craving and addiction. The particular area also is associated with what the scientists who study this, their gains and their losses. The brain is trying to work out, what did I gain and what did I lose? Who will get the children? Who will invite me for Christmas or something? Who will. How much money will I lose? What will I gain? I got rid of a drunk. I got rid of a wife beater. I got rid of somebody hurting my children. And so you go over this and.
- [27:17]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Over this and over this also, you reevaluate your entire history of relationship, right? You spool it backwards.
- [27:23]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Why did I see this the night that he or she did? I. You know, and so you've got a whole different prescription. I mean, perception of it. Like. Like you say, there's several phases of it. The first thing that happens when somebody tells you they're on their way out is. Is shock. That often lasts a couple of weeks. And then comes hope. You're just hoping. And then comes protest. You fight back. You try to seduce and you try to compromise. You try to go out with other people and make them jealous. You know, it's like a puppy that you put into the kitchen without its mother, and it starts banging at the door and going in circles. You're just protesting for this. And you might go into their office with a whole pile of flowers, and then he says something, and you're throwing them at them, you know, and then comes resignation, where you give up. You finally know this can't happen. And that's associated with despair. But I actually think this was done by a group of good psychiatrists. But the book is a little old, and I think that you can feel the despair all the way through and after. So we got shock, hope, protest, resignation, and finally indifference.
- [28:43]
Dr. Heather Berlin
You know, my definition of indifference is that they go out, let's say. And normally if you're still pining and you're thinking, who are they going out with? Are they with somebody else? What if they're with somebody else right now and you're going on a. But if you get to the point where they're out and you don't, it's fine. You don't care what they're doing?
- [29:03]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Well, yeah. What about acceptance? Because you still spend so many months or years of your life with it. But I can still feel compassion for them much more than for another person that I've never met. So why does it have to be indifferent? I mean, similar to when people talk about the very Kubler Ross, the various phases of bereavement, of greed. And finally you accept this is how the world is.
- [29:27]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yeah. And I think it's different personality styles that can still hope for them and other people who will hate them forever. I think that's it.
- [29:36]
Dr. Heather Berlin
I think it depends on the nature of the relationship and what the breakup.
- [29:39]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Was and maybe the indifference. Well, we should add one more. Well, the last one that I added, I only added the beginning was other psychiatrists. But indifference, I added. And I gotta think on that. But I think it's post traumatic growth.
- [29:55]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yes.
- [29:56]
Dr. Helen Fisher
You realize, oh, what mistakes you made, how you could have done differently. And then you have your story. And so when people come to me, I say, you have to build your story. Now, for me, one time a guy broke up with me and I had no idea. Right.
- [30:15]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Why?
- [30:15]
Dr. Helen Fisher
And I figure this out and I finally said, helen, you will never figure it out. Make something up so that you can bury it.
- [30:24]
Dr. Heather Berlin
For closure, you need to have a.
- [30:26]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Narrative, perfect illustration of the perception box, because it's all about narrative. You need one particular narrative, and maybe you need a friend or psychologist or therapist to help you construct that. Yeah, it probably happened because this, that and the other, and then you buy into it and that forms.
- [30:42]
Dr. Helen Fisher
But then you have different perception bugs that you can. That you now can handle.
- [30:46]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Yes, you can handle.
- [30:47]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Your brain needs a narrative. It needs a story. It's looking for meaning. I had a relationship a long time. We broke up and never spoke again. And 15 years later, he came back to me and said, can we meet? I just need some closure.
- [31:03]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Oh, wow.
- [31:04]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah. And we did. And we met, we talked for hours. And it was really therapeutic, I think, for both of us. But it's like it doesn't go away. It's almost like you have to revise the theory, I guess.
- [31:16]
Dr. Helen Fisher
But that's fine. That's what theories are for.
- [31:19]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Right?
- [31:19]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Right.
- [31:20]
Dr. Heather Berlin
New evidence and revision. So I want to get to this concept of slow love and how that intersect with how we're dating in modern society with these dating sites. And our evolution of the brain is slow. So we're still running on these older programs.
- [31:35]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Right.
- [31:35]
Dr. Heather Berlin
But with modern. It's intersecting with modern technology. And you've kind of talked a bit about that and this concept of slow love. So can you talk a little bit about that?
- [31:44]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Absolutely. Thank you for reading that article.
- [31:47]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah, that's a great article.
- [31:47]
Dr. Helen Fisher
It was very meaningful to me. I call it slow love because 50 years ago, a woman generally married around age 21, now she marries around age 29. Same with men. They Married in the past at around 22 or 23 and now they marry at around average at around 30. So they've got about 10 years of what I call pre commitment time. Time to get to know themselves, time to have their one night stands and then get rid of them. Time to live with somebody for a couple years, get rid of it, learn a lot more about how to handle grief, anger, joy, sadness, whatever, and romantic love and feelings of attachment, et cetera, et cetera. And I looked, this is not Match. I looked at the demographic yearbooks of the United nations from 1947 to 2011 because I haven't written about it since. And as it turns out, the longer you court and the later you went, the more likely you are to remain together in 80 cultures. And the other thing that's part of that is we are now meeting on the Internet more than through a friend. The last time I looked about where did you meet your last first date? 40% of singles said on the Internet and 25% said to a friend. And less than 10% said at work, in school, et cetera. And I read an article from the University of Chicago that said if you mate on the Internet, not just match, but anywhere on the Internet as opposed to off the Internet, you're less likely to divorce. And I thought to myself what the use is to make. You can meet somebody in a hotel lobby, you can meet them at a concert, you can meet him at the airport. Why would meeting somebody on the Internet as opposed to off the Internet be less inclined to divorce? So I did my own study through Match and I looked at people who are doing their dating on the Internet as opposed to off the Internet. And as it turns out, people who date, I don't even like the word date. These are not dating sites. They are introducing sites. That's all they are. But anyway, people who met on the Internet as opposed to off the Internet were more likely to be fully employed, more likely to have higher education, and more likely to be looking for a committed relationship on the Internet, on the Internet and then off the Internet. And when you think about it, you know, okay, off the Internet you walk and meet somebody in a bar. You don't know what they're looking for or what's going on. I mean, we have this assumption that if it's off the Internet, it's sort of more natural. All these sites are Internet sites are, is introducing sites. The only real algorithm is your own brain. Nobody, I mean, we can give you somebody who's the right size and shape and you Know, background and interest, et cetera.
- [35:07]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Do you think technology really hasn't fundamentally affected love? Because ultimately it's a brain system.
- [35:14]
Dr. Helen Fisher
You can meet more people, you can meet people faster, you can meet people who live farther away that you never run into.
- [35:24]
Dr. Christoph Koch
So it's actually better for meeting a possible right match.
- [35:28]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yes, because they are more likely to be better educated, fully employed and looking for a.
- [35:37]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And they're there for this explicit purpose, you know.
- [35:41]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Exactly.
- [35:41]
Dr. Heather Berlin
They're looking for somebody.
- [35:43]
Dr. Helen Fisher
But the real. I mean, what really happens is you go out and meet somebody, and when you go out and meet somebody, your old brain clicks in. Oh. You watch the way they. You assess them, you parade the way you always did. You laugh the way you always did. You talk about what you always did. It's the only real algorithm. But what these Internet sites do, included maps, definitely, is just give you people to meet more choices. And one of the problems is they give too many choices.
- [36:15]
Dr. Heather Berlin
That is a problem because it's this illusion that there's so many more people and people.
- [36:19]
Dr. Christoph Koch
And decision paralysis.
- [36:20]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yeah, and decision. You know, you know, this study that the brain can only cope with five to nine choices.
- [36:27]
Dr. Heather Berlin
But the other thing is.
- [36:28]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Can I quote something from.
- [36:32]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yes.
- [36:33]
Dr. Christoph Koch
So it's just your last paragraph, which is very inspirational, I find. Very unusual. Love is not dead, Courtship is not ruined, and sex has not replaced emotional intimacy. Our romantic and sexual lives are simply adopting to our new environments. In fact, with the current marriage revolution towards slow love, we may see more happy and enduring partnerships in the digital age. And I find it remarkable because everyone commiserates about social media and AI and how everything is going from bad to worse.
- [37:01]
Dr. Helen Fisher
They don't understand the brain. They don't understand the brain. When you go out and you meet the person, you're doing it the way they did a million years ago.
- [37:09]
Dr. Heather Berlin
It's just another way to get there.
- [37:11]
Dr. Helen Fisher
I mean, people complain about these dating sites. I was doing something with this guy and he said, helen, I went out on 30 dates recently, one a night for a month. And he said, I can't find anybody. And I said, that's your problem. You know, once you've met. And I mean met in person, you mean in person or video chatting, which is really risen, and this is the way to go so that you actually see them. I mean, that's the way brain has worked for millions of years. And so you've got to meet them. And I say, after you've met nine people, stop, get off the dating site and get to know at least one of These people. But there's one question that I ask all the time on this Singleton America study, and that is, have you ever fallen madly in love with somebody who you initially did not find attractive? And every year that I've asked it, the first year was, I don't know how many years ago, maybe 2012, it went up from something like 22% to 34%. And this past year, it was 49%. Giving people a chance.
- [38:31]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah, exactly. I always say that to my patients. I understand you're not physically attracted at first, but give them a chance, and you might just get there. And that speaks to this point of, like, love. Is this something even deeper? It's deeper than that initial attraction. There's these different kinds of love, and we have to be open to letting these other brain systems come online. So we end every episode by asking a few of the perception box questions. And I don't know which question Kristof chose, and he doesn't know which one I'll be asking. So here we go.
- [39:10]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Heather, who are you still trying to please?
- [39:13]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Who am I still trying to please?
- [39:14]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Oh, that's a good question for me too.
- [39:17]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah, you're gonna answer it too.
- [39:18]
Dr. Helen Fisher
That was a smart one.
- [39:19]
Dr. Heather Berlin
It's both of us are gonna an. Who am I still trying to please?
- [39:23]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yes.
- [39:24]
Dr. Christoph Koch
In 2024.
- [39:26]
Dr. Heather Berlin
That's a really good question. You know, my stock answer used to be my father. I was always trying to please my father because nothing was ever good enough. And, you know, if you get a 99 on a test, why don't you get 100? You know, what did you get wrong? So I was always sort of trying to please him, I think. But now I think I've transitioned so that I'm still just trying to please myself. That sounds interesting. Weird. Maybe it's narcissistic. I don't know. But I want to. Yeah, I think it's healthy. I think I'm trying to find what makes me happy and, you know, move in that direction and not trying to please others so much anymore. So, yeah, I don't answer it in one word.
- [40:09]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Okay, everyone. It's a very bad trait. A very bad trait. How about you? What's your answer?
- [40:18]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah. Oh, yeah. We're turning it on to you now.
- [40:22]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Well, it used to be my mom.
- [40:24]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Aw.
- [40:25]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Just like your dad. But now it's more abstract. I'm trying to live by some rules, some ethical rules, and I try to follow those ethical precepts, and if I violate those, then I feel very bad and guilty about it.
- [40:38]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Okay. So you're trying to please the greater ethical.
- [40:42]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Yeah, I have a system that I've tried since many years to follow because I think it's the right way to live and to act. And if you fall short of that, then, you know, you get a bad feeling, which is as it should be.
- [40:52]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Got it. Okay, here is my question for both of you. What have you not forgiven yourself for and why? And what are you afraid of what will happen if you do?
- [41:05]
Dr. Helen Fisher
I know my answer. I think mine goes back to the people pleasing. It's just ridiculous. And.
- [41:13]
Dr. Heather Berlin
But you don't forgive yourself for it. You don't forgive yourself for.
- [41:17]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Maybe it's anger. I'm not an angry person. And occasionally now I've gotten angry and angry at somebody for saying something that was cruel. But I was angry with myself for expressing anger. I don't. I don't like. I feel as if it's not me. Most of the time in life, I just slide out of the way, get it over with. I don't like it to. I don't like feeling anger. I want to accept the situation for what it is and move on, which is what I generally do. And I am not forgiving myself.
- [42:04]
Dr. Heather Berlin
What you have to do is accept and forgive yourself. Accept and yourself as you are. And for feeling the anger, control the anger.
- [42:12]
Dr. Christoph Koch
I think is useful. It's adaptive.
- [42:14]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Yeah.
- [42:14]
Dr. Christoph Koch
And if somebody does see something cool, I think it's important to signal them that this was uncalled for. This is not good.
- [42:22]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah, yeah, it's adaptive. So it's okay to feel anger. Don't be angry at yourself for feeling anger.
- [42:28]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Now I feel angry at myself for feeling anger.
- [42:31]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yes, I am.
- [42:32]
Dr. Christoph Koch
If you feel angry and it's out of control, then obviously it's not good.
- [42:35]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Yeah, right, Right.
- [42:36]
Dr. Christoph Koch
So you have to be still in control.
- [42:39]
Dr. Helen Fisher
I wrote to her and told her what I. Oh, this is a specific individual, this person that happened this week. But I let her know that. I didn't let her know I was furious at her. I just told her why I felt this was incorrect behavior on her part. But I didn't, you know. But I still don't like out of control anger. I'm not an angry person. If that was not me. It annoys me that I couldn't be myself.
- [43:09]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Guess what I've not forgiven myself for, particularly as I get older. That I'm an egoist. I do things because I like them. I love to write books. I like to be with my family. I help my family out, et cetera. But that's all my close family either. I feel what other people are doing are trying to go out in the world and actually change the world or certain aspects of the world for better. And I just don't feel called upon doing that. So it's more about me and my reality.
- [43:37]
Dr. Heather Berlin
You feel you haven't forgiven yourself for that fact?
- [43:41]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Yeah, I feel I should do better. I should do more because there's so many people that need help, that need our compassion actively to help them lead better lives. And rather than doing that by going out and, you know, somehow starting an NGO and directly helping people, I do it in different ways that are more conducive to what I like doing. This is something my mom said when I was 8 years old, and it stuck with me ever since. Christoph, you are too much of an egoist. And here it resurfaces.
- [44:15]
Dr. Heather Berlin
So you haven't forgiven yourself for your egocentricity?
- [44:20]
Dr. Christoph Koch
I haven't forgiven myself. You feel guilty about it, obviously. I do.
- [44:23]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Fine.
- [44:24]
Dr. Christoph Koch
But I feel somewhat. Yes. There's always a residue of guilt. Yes.
- [44:28]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And you were raised Catholic, right?
- [44:29]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Yes.
- [44:30]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And it does not speak about guilt.
- [44:32]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Well, probably it doesn't help because guilt, you know, is one of the. One of the gluing blocks of Catholicism. You're supposed to feel guilty.
- [44:40]
Dr. Heather Berlin
And are you afraid of something if you forgive yourself, what are you afraid of? Why not forgive yourself?
- [44:44]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Well, the realization that I'm not this person I may have aspired to, not quite the person I may have aspired to earlier in my life.
- [44:55]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Well, I forgive you.
- [44:56]
Dr. Christoph Koch
Thank you.
- [44:57]
Dr. Heather Berlin
Thank you for joining us today. Oh, thanks. This was amazing.
- [45:01]
Dr. Christoph Koch
I mean, this was wonderful.
- [45:02]
Dr. Helen Fisher
Thank you.
- [45:03]
Dr. Heather Berlin
A real highlight. I mean, as always. And you're wonderful. So if you'd like to learn more about your own perception box, spend some time this week answering the same Perception box questions that we asked our guest. And check out other questions on the website@ unlikelycollaborators.com you can also subscribe to our YouTube channel and watch the show or listen wherever you get your podcasts.