Science Vs – "Vaccines: Does Europe Do Them Better?"

Host: Meryl Horne (in for Wendy Zuckerman)
Date: January 15, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of Science Vs tackles the seismic shift in U.S. childhood vaccine recommendations and the political and scientific debate around reducing the vaccine schedule to mirror policies in countries like Denmark. The hosts dissect whether Europe, and specifically Denmark, truly "does vaccines better," explore the rationale behind fewer recommended vaccines, and critically appraise the consequences (intended or not) of the U.S. following suit. Featuring infectious disease experts and pediatricians, the episode emphasizes that health policy cannot simply be copy-pasted between countries and scrutinizes who stands to benefit or lose from these changes.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Vaccine Policy Shift in the U.S. (00:00–02:58)

• The Department of Health and Human Services, now guided by vaccine skeptics, rolled back the CDC childhood vaccine recommendations from 17 to 11 universally recommended vaccines.
  • Notably, the move was justified by pointing to European countries—especially Denmark—with simpler vaccine schedules (01:35).
• Several vaccines are now only recommended for "high risk" groups or after consultation with a doctor:
  • Hepatitis A & B, meningitis, RSV, rotavirus, and flu (04:49).
• The COVID-19 vaccine had already been dropped from routine childhood recommendations (04:57).

2. Are the "72 Shots" Claims True? (03:03–04:23)

• Viral social media infographics suggest U.S. babies get "72 shots," fueling fear.
  • Meryl Horne: "It is true that babies get more shots today than in the past. But they're not getting, like, 772 shots. ... If you add up all the individual shots ... including ... flu shot and Covid shot every year, then you get 72." (04:13)
• The number overstates the actual diseases covered, as boosters and annual shots are included.

3. Denmark as a Model — Is It Valid? (06:24–19:21)

• Denmark often mentioned as the gold standard, with President Trump lauding its simpler schedule as a reason for change in the U.S. (07:35).
• Jens Lundgren (infectious diseases professor, University of Copenhagen, Danish Health Authority adviser) voices skepticism:
  • Jens: "I felt that was very surprising to make that analogy and then just critically adopt it." (07:17)
• Why does Denmark vaccinate less?
  • Decisions are multi-factorial: vaccine effectiveness, cost, disease prevalence (08:07).
  • Rare diseases (e.g., meningococcal disease) are handled by "ring vaccination" (targeted contact tracing) rather than universal vaccination:
    • Jens: "It is scary... but it's also rare. ... We have chosen [targeted vaccination]." (10:07)
• Drawback: Targeted approaches require robust health infrastructure, which the fragmented U.S. system lacks (10:56).
  • David Higgins (pediatrician): "You have to catch these diseases really fast... That requires a health system ... really well resourced. We don’t have those things in the U.S." (11:09)
• Even Denmark struggles: only half of identified contacts actually get the vaccine (11:29).
• Preventive vaccination has saved ~500 meningitis cases and 54 deaths over 15 years in the U.S. alone (12:07).
• Herd immunity paradox: Low disease prevalence is because of vaccination, not reason to discontinue (12:18–12:34).

4. Trade-offs: Rotavirus and Chickenpox (13:19–16:13)

• Rotavirus (causes severe diarrhea in infants): Common but usually not fatal in Denmark, and treatable due to universal healthcare access.
• In the U.S., the vaccine prevents ~62,000 ER visits and 45,000 hospitalizations annually (14:14).
  • Parents appreciate sparing children the misery and household disruption of these illnesses.
• Chickenpox, now a routine vaccine in the U.S., is seen as a "nuisance but nonfatal," but in hindsight, hosts recall how miserable it was to endure (15:19–15:56).

5. Why Vaccine Schedules Don’t Translate Across Borders (17:06–19:43)

• David Higgins: "You can't copy and paste the vaccine schedule from another country and expect it to work in the same way..." (17:06)
• The U.S. isn't alone in broad vaccine coverage—peer countries (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) have similar or even more comprehensive programs (17:34–18:16).
  • Selecting Denmark, while ignoring these, is arbitrary.
  • Other countries continue adding vaccines, making the "catch up with Europe" argument a moving target (18:54–19:23).
• International experts view the U.S. changes as alarming:
  • Quote from European peer: "It is like watching a train wreck in slow motion." (19:43)
• U.S. Health and Human Services defends the move, emphasizing parental choice and continued insurance coverage (19:50).

6. Consequences of the Policy Change—Parental Confusion and Health Risks (21:23–29:41)

• Just How Bad Is This?
  • David Higgins: "I would say that this is an 8. An 8 or 9 [out of 10]." (21:57)
    • Not a full 10 only because parents can still, theoretically, access vaccines.
    • He predicts confusion and reduced uptake, making vaccination more difficult, especially for non-routine vaccines.
• Access vs. Recommendation:
  • Example: RSV protections are now listed under "high risk" instead of routine. Many parents won't realize their baby qualifies if their pregnancy missed the narrow vaccine window or if they miss a crucial footnote (25:54):
    • David: "They're not going to read the footnote... They're going to see the schedule, the nice colors, and say, oh, my child's not high risk." (25:54)
  • Personal anecdote: Meryl, herself a parent, was told her toddler didn't need hepatitis A—then second-guessed the advice given relatively recent outbreaks (26:23–27:26).
    • David: "Vaccines are victims of their own success... we use it, it works, and then people start questioning why it's necessary." (27:09)
• Risk of Resurgence:
  • With global travel, infectious diseases are only ever a plane ride away—decreased coverage risks outbreaks, as seen with U.S. measles flare-ups (28:32–28:59).
  • David: "I think of it like a dry forest and sparks being thrown... eventually that spark’s going to land in the wrong place and it’s going to start a wildfire." (28:59)
• Official Guidance Diverges:
  • The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) maintains the broader old schedule, which David and other pediatricians still recommend (29:41–30:01).

7. Erosion of Trust and Vaccine Access – Looking Forward (30:01–31:14)

• David Higgins: "This is one step among more steps to come that are going to continue to erode trust or availability of vaccines. ... I think ... we’re going to see more things happen... to make parents question, not because the science changes." (30:19)
• Predicts further barriers, reduced routine, and increased parental hesitation not rooted in science but system-driven confusion.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jens Lundgren (on U.S. copying Denmark):
  “I felt that was very surprising to make that analogy and then just critically adopt it.” (07:17)
• David Higgins (on targeted vs. blanket vaccination):
  “You have to catch these diseases really fast... That requires a health system... really well-resourced. We don’t have those things in the U.S.” (11:09)
• Rose Rimler (on vaccine infographics):
  “The graphic was just so ridiculous... I don’t really know what’s true, what’s not true.” (03:33)
• European expert (on U.S. vaccine decision):
  “It is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.” (19:43)
• David Higgins (on risk of declining coverage):
  “Vaccines are victims of their own success... unfortunately, these diseases will come back when we stop vaccinating. They're being held at bay with vaccines. They're not eradicated.” (27:09)
• Meryl Horne (parent’s perspective):
  “I'm glad we opened this [universe] where they got some stuff like... oral vaccine ... [instead of] a bad alternate universe.” (16:19)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–01:41: U.S. vaccine schedule overhaul, citing Denmark as inspiration
• 03:03–04:23: Dissecting social media "72 shots" claims
• 07:17–08:07: Jens Lundgren's reaction to comparisons with Denmark
• 10:07: Denmark’s targeted approach to meningitis
• 11:09: David Higgins on why U.S. cannot copy Denmark’s strategy
• 12:07–12:34: How preventive vaccines averted deaths in the U.S.; herd immunity problem
• 14:14: Rotavirus vaccine prevents massive healthcare burden
• 17:06: Why vaccine schedules aren’t one-size-fits-all
• 21:57: David Higgins ranks this policy shift as an “8 or 9” emergency
• 25:54: Real confusion for parents under new guidelines
• 27:09: Vaccines as "victims of their own success"
• 28:59: Infectious disease as a "wildfire" metaphor
• 29:41–31:14: Warning of continued confusion and declining vaccine trust/access

Conclusion

This episode unpacks the complexity and risks of the U.S. policy shift toward fewer vaccine recommendations by examining science, logistics, and international examples. Denmark's context—small, centralized, with universal healthcare—is fundamentally different, making their selective approach risky in a fragmented U.S. landscape. Experts warn of confusion, disease resurgence, and a slow erosion of public health achievement if access and trust erode further.

Bottom line:
Vaccine science hasn’t changed—only the political tides have. Experts, especially U.S. pediatricians, urge sticking to the more comprehensive, pre-2026 schedule to maintain current public health successes.

To learn more and see cited sources, check the episode’s transcript and show notes.