Aphantasia: Missing the Mind's Eye

Summary

Science Vs: Aphantasia – Missing the Mind's Eye

Science Vs, hosted by Wendy Zuckerman from Spotify Studios, delves deep into the scientific truths behind popular myths and phenomena. In the November 7, 2024 episode titled "Aphantasia: Missing the Mind's Eye," the show explores the fascinating spectrum of human mental imagery—from those who cannot visualize at all to those with extraordinarily vivid imaginations. This detailed summary captures the key discussions, insights, and conclusions gleaned from the episode.

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Understanding Aphantasia and Hyperphantasia

The episode opens with producer Sindhu Nyanasambandan sharing her personal experience with aphantasia—a condition where individuals lack the ability to form mental images. Sindhu recounts an early interview with neuroscientist Mark Whitman, where she struggled to visualize a simple object like an apple. Instead of seeing the fruit, she perceived "a leaf on it. It was two-dimensional" (03:01) and confessed, “I felt like I had to say something about an apple” (03:30). This revelation led her to investigate further, discovering that approximately 1% of people experience aphantasia, unable to conjure mental images despite understanding concepts intellectually.

Conversely, the episode introduces Derek, a participant with hyperphantasia—an extreme form of mental imagery. Unlike Sindhu, Derek describes his mind as a vivid, immersive cinematic experience. He shares, “I can see it right now. It's like a shiny red apple” (05:01) and elaborates on creating entire worlds within his mind, such as flying Pegasus or intricate scenes from books (10:02). This stark contrast between aphantasia and hyperphantasia sets the stage for exploring the broader implications of mental imagery variations.

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Scientific Insights: Joel Pearson’s Research

Central to the episode is the work of neuroscientist Joel Pearson from the University of New South Wales. Pearson's accidental discovery using binocular rivalry—a technique where different images are presented to each eye—revealed that individuals can influence their visual perception through imagination. In an experiment, Pearson imagined a green square before activating the binocular rivalry setup and found that he consistently saw the imagined image (07:44). This suggested a direct link between mental imagery and visual perception.

Pearson further developed objective methods to measure visual imagination. One such method involved observing pupil responses: when individuals with vivid imagery imagined looking at the sun, their pupils constricted similarly to when they actually viewed bright light. In contrast, those with aphantasia showed no such response (09:04). These findings provided tangible evidence distinguishing individuals' mental imagery capabilities.

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Impacts on Mental Health and Daily Life

The episode delves into how varying degrees of mental imagery affect mental health. Clinical psychologist and neuroscientist Emily Holmes discusses the correlation between strong mental imagery and conditions like schizophrenia, anxiety disorders, and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Holmes explains, “If you were afraid of spiders, you might experience bits of imagery of spiders with terribly big teeth and fangs” (27:19). For individuals like those with hyperphantasia, vivid mental images can exacerbate anxiety and PTSD by making traumatic memories more intrusive and emotionally intense.

Derek shares his personal struggles with mental health, recounting a severe psychotic episode rooted in his hyperphantasia. He describes how his vivid mental projections blurred the lines between imagination and reality, leading to disorientation and life-altering consequences (25:47). This underscores the double-edged sword of having an exceptionally vivid mindscape—while it offers creative and immersive experiences, it can also intensify psychological distress.

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Potential Treatments and Future Directions

Exploring potential treatments, the episode highlights Pearson’s hypothesis that brain stimulation could potentially enhance mental imagery in those with aphantasia. He experimented with applying low electrical currents to the visual cortex, which showed promise in strengthening mental imagery capabilities (15:50). However, Sindhu expresses reservations, noting the complexity and potential dangers of artificially inducing mental imagery: “I have no practice with it. I feel like it could be kind of a bad trip that I can't get out of” (30:33).

Emily Holmes discusses therapeutic techniques to help individuals manage intrusive imagery, such as cognitive-behavioral strategies to control and alter mental images. For example, someone with PTSD might learn to “shrink or turn it green and push it away” when imagining a feared object (29:56). These methods aim to give individuals greater control over their mental landscapes, mitigating the emotional impact of vivid images.

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Social and Psychological Implications

Beyond individual experiences, the episode touches on the broader social implications of diverse mental imagery abilities. Sindhu reflects on the challenges of communication and understanding between individuals with differing mental imagery capacities. Latif Nasser points out, “We remember it in a totally different way... there is something sad about that,” highlighting how varied mental perceptions can lead to miscommunication and misunderstanding (32:20).

Sindhu emphasizes the importance of recognizing and appreciating this cognitive diversity: “I really do think it's a good thing for the world that there's a spectrum” (31:05). Understanding that minds work differently can foster empathy and reduce conflicts arising from differing recollections and interpretations of events.

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Conclusion: Embracing Cognitive Diversity

The episode concludes by acknowledging the spectrum of mental imagery abilities as a natural aspect of human diversity. Sindhu chooses to embrace her aphantasia, appreciating the clarity and emptiness it affords her, free from the overwhelming images that others like Derek experience. She states, “I have a meditation practice... there's so much more to quiet if you're dealing not just with words and ideas, but actually, like, images” (31:06). This acceptance underscores a central theme: whether one possesses a vivid mind or none at all, each mental landscape contributes uniquely to the human experience.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sindhu on her aphantasia experience: “I felt like I had to say something about an apple.” (03:30)
• Derek describing his vivid imagination: “I can see it right now. It's like a shiny red apple.” (05:01)
• Joel Pearson on mental imagery and perception: “What we imagine does change our visual perception.” (08:24)
• Emily Holmes on imagery and anxiety: “If you were afraid of spiders, you might experience bits of imagery of spiders with terribly big teeth and fangs.” (27:19)
• Sindhu on embracing aphantasia: “I have a meditation practice... there's so much more to quiet if you're dealing not just with words and ideas, but actually, like, images.” (31:06)

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Final Thoughts:

"Aphantasia: Missing the Mind's Eye" offers a compelling exploration of the human mind's diverse capabilities. By juxtaposing personal narratives with cutting-edge scientific research, Science Vs illuminates how mental imagery shapes our perception, creativity, and mental health. The episode invites listeners to reflect on their own cognitive processes and fosters a deeper appreciation for the intricate tapestry of human thought.

Transcript

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Verses. So we all know that everyone's different, right? We're all special snowflakes. But every now and then you'll hear a story. Or maybe if you're a nerd like me, you'll read a scientific paper that makes you realise that we're different in these ways that you didn't expect, that you never thought about. Turns out it's not just who loves Tayte and who thinks she's just fine. And today's episode is all about this, not Taylor Swift, the idea that we're different in these unexpected ways. It comes to us from Radiolab and it's a story that we heard and we just really loved it and wanted to share it with you. So we're going to jump in just after the break. This episode of Science Versus is brought to you by Ford. There are few pickups more iconic than the F150. And the 2024 F150 Lightning truck is no exception. With an EPA estimated range of 320 miles with the available extended range battery, it's the only EV that's an F150. Visit Ford.com to learn more. Excludes Platinum models. EPA Estimated Driving Range based on full charge. Actual driving range varies with conditions such as external environment, vehicle use, vehicle maintenance, high voltage battery age and state of health.

[Latif Nasser]

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[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

All right, all right.

[Lulu Miller]

I'm Lulu.

[Latif]

I'm Latif.

[Latif Nasser]

This is Radiolab. And today's story comes to us from producer Sindhu Nyanasambandan.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Okay, so this story, it sort of found me.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Derek]

Okay.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Derek]

Okay. Yeah.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Last year I was working on this episode about memory and I was talking to this neuroscientist, Mark Whitman. That's too bad. And as a sort of a side.

[Lulu Miller]

You can some sort of cut this out.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Anyway, he asked me this question.

[Lulu Miller]

If you close your eyes and you think about, let's say, a red apple.

[Derek]

Now open it again. Your eyes.

[Lulu Miller]

Can you tell me what you saw?

[Derek]

What did you see?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

There was a leaf on it. It was two dimensional.

[Derek]

I didn't think in 3D, did you see a color?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

No. I don't know what it would mean to see a color with your mind.

[Latif]

Mm.

[Lulu Miller]

So who knows?

[Latif]

Wait, so even though he told you.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Read apple, I saw nothing, but you saw leaf, right? I know. I just. I felt like I had to say something about an apple.

[Latif Nasser]

So you were lying? You were cheating on the test?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

I mean, I wasn't lying. Like, this has come up a lot in my life. Okay. People are like, visualize something. And so, I don't know, I just always thought it was a metaphor. Like, I just did my version of that.

[Latif]

Which is what, like a word cloud kind of thing?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

No, it's not a word cloud. It's like an abstract knowing. Like, I know I love someone. Like, I just know that an apple has a leaf. There's a part of me that knows that that is true, but it's not seeing it. Like, if I close my eyes and think about it, it's really just black.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

But, of course, the thing that was surprising for me was not what's going on in my head. Like, I know I've lived in that my whole. The thing that blew my mind open.

[Latif]

I'm picturing a red Delicious apple, was.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

What'S been going on in everybody else's head.

[Latif]

Got a little yellow shine on the bottom left.

[Latif Nasser]

Like the ones that are so shiny that they look kind of waxy.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

After that interview, I started obsessively asking everybody I came across, is there a red apple to describe their apple? Not perfectly red, but it's a red.

[Latif]

With little streaks of yellow and green.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And do you actually see the color?

[Unnamed Speaker]

I think so, yeah.

[Latif]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And every time. What do you mean? The image is in my head. How could I not see the colors? I don't know. Your eyes are closed. People would say they could actually see it. No, I'm definitely seeing the colors. Wow. Do you see it?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, yeah.

[Latif]

It's like a shiny red apple.

[Latif Nasser]

Like, I am seeing it right now.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

In the way that you see things in real life. Like, how vivid is it?

[Latif Nasser]

I mean, it's decently vivid. Like, it's on a white plate on a kind of cafeteria style table. Like, I went. I went middle school. I know the grade I went. Cause it was when I had Ms. Pacioli, so it was sixth grade. I threw it into that particular cafeteria sauce touch.

[Latif]

You got that from apple?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

When she said picture an apple.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

How about yours, Latif?

[Latif]

Okay, mine is actually. Mine's not that vivid, but mine's like it's kind of a cartoon of an apple, I think. Um. Like, I don't know. The more I think about it, I'm like, am I seeing it?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Like, what does seeing in the mind even mean?

[Latif]

Right.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah. I guess it is just words, like, how do we know? Maybe I see the same blur as you, but I get all excited and poetic about it, and you're just like, meh, there's not much there, you know? How can we be sure?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

I mean. Well, for a long time, we couldn't be sure.

[Lulu Miller]

We had to sort of take someone's word for it, that that's what they were imagining, that's what their experience was like.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

But then I found this guy, Joel.

[Lulu Miller]

Pearson, I'm a professor of cognitive neuroscience at the University of New South Wales.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Who sort of like, stumbles into this way of showing that there really is a difference here.

[Lulu Miller]

It was almost an accidental discovery.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

So one day, he's in his lab.

[Lulu Miller]

Was programming an experiment.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Actually, he was playing around with this thing called binocular rivalry.

[Lulu Miller]

And it's an amazing illusion where you present very different pictures, one to each eye. And you can do that.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Basically, you put on these sort of like, VR goggles that give each eye a different image. So let's say your left eye gets a green square and your right eye gets a red circle.

[Latif Nasser]

Wait, okay, so each eye only gets one of those?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah, exactly. Each eye can't see what's going on in the other eye.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay, got it.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And, you know, typically, when you're just looking around at things, like, your eyes are getting slightly different images, right?

[Lulu Miller]

Your brain's fusing those two different images together. But, like, when those images are very different, like this experiment, your brain can't do that.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

So instead, you get these beautiful oscillations. Your brain just sort of, like, randomly switches between the two. It's like, green square, red circle, green square, red circle.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh.

[Lulu Miller]

So literally, your consciousness is changing back and forward in this sort of really random manner. So I was programming an experiment to look at that, and for some reason, and today I don't remember why, I thought, huh, I'm going to imagine one of these two pictures.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Before he turns on, like, the images and the goggles, he's like, okay, let me just imagine a green square. And then he turns it on, and.

[Lulu Miller]

I was like, huh? I saw the thing that I imagined.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Joel only sees the green square. What?

[Lulu Miller]

No, this can't be. Let me try that again. Now I imagine the red one. Huh. And now I saw the red picture in the binocular ivory.

[Latif Nasser]

Whoa.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

It's like Just imagining the red circle made his brain actually choose to show him that one. Like what he thought actually changed what he saw.

[Lulu Miller]

Turns out that what we imagine does change our visual perception. It literally changes how we see the world. With a caveat. You know, if you have mental imagery.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

If someone like me does it, we.

[Lulu Miller]

Don'T see that same response.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

My mind doesn't linger on the imagined object. It just kind of switches between the two.

[Latif]

Wow.

[Lulu Miller]

It was actually the first sort of objective method to measure visual imagination. Since then, we've developed a few other.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Ways, and Joel's continued to find these, like, objective ways to see a difference. Like, he did this one experiment looking at people's eyes.

[Lulu Miller]

If you look up at the light, our pupils contract Right. When you're in the dark, of course, your pupil opens right up.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

People who have imagery, if you ask them to imagine, say, looking at the.

[Lulu Miller]

Sun, your pupil actually constricts as if.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

They were actually looking at the sun.

[Latif Nasser]

No.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

But if someone with no images in their head does this, you don't get these effects. Not at all.

[Lulu Miller]

Not at all. Yeah. Yeah.

[Latif]

Wow.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And there's even a name for this, for not being able to see in your head. Aphantasia.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hmm.

[Latif]

Aphantasia.

[Latif Nasser]

What does that word mean? Just so we really.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Fantasia means imagination.

[Latif Nasser]

Okay.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And aphantasia means no fagination.

[Latif]

Wow.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

I know. So there's, like, about 1% of us who don't see anything. Most people see something, like, maybe vague lines or cartoons, like Yuletif, or even more vividly, like you, Lulu. But then there are these other people.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I would fabricate these stories and I would see them.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

I would see them like they were movies who say their imagery is as vivid as real seeing.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Create this entire world where I'm like, flying on a Pegasus back, you know, and it's as real to me.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Wow. It's called hyperphantasia. About 2 to 3% of people have it. And when you ask these people to imagine staring at the sun, their pupils super constrict.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I can go into the backyard. I can walk to my friend's house. I can walk to the Catholic school where we used to play on the tree.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

One guy described being able to, like, walk through his childhood world.

[Unnamed Speaker]

I can run into old friends. I can just keep walking.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Wow.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It keeps me company. So, like, I never actually feel lonely.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Usually. This woman described reading books being like.

[Unnamed Speaker]

As if I was watching a film, except that I'm standing in the film.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Being in a movie. And when this other person reads the visuals are so strong that he'll sometimes just leave the page.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Like, yes, I'm just over here in the saloon and going upstairs. And the story doesn't even take place up there.

Oh.

[Latif]

So it's like it's in the world of the book, leaves the page of what the author is saying and just. Is like, he's gonna go explore this fictional world.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, I just wanted to know what it looked like.

Like, I cannot hear music without having a complete. I guess you could say music video. I've had the experience of, like, trying to find a music video that then I find out doesn't exist. It was just in my mind.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

This woman described having these, like, images that just constantly play in the background of her mind. Like, in the middle of the interview, I asked her, I was like, are you seeing something right now?

[Unnamed Speaker]

It's like a really touching, like, love moment between two characters. She passes away and visits him before she dies. And he thinks it's a dream.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, my God.

[Unnamed Speaker]

And she climbs up onto, like, a unicorn. She's wearing a most beautiful dress. And then he wakes up to watch her ride the unicorn into the wall and disappear.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

So you are experiencing that in your head while you're answering my questions?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah, yeah, that's just happening. It's like. It's like I have a TV on in the background.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Latif]

And when you were talking to this woman, like, what is the. Are you feeling jealousy? Are you feeling like they're getting something you aren't?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Oh, my God. Are you kidding? I am so jealous. Just to know that there is this whole part of being a human that I will just never get to experience.

[Latif]

Yeah.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Like, I was listening to this old Radiolab episode.

[Latif]

Never heard of it. What show is that?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Anyway, it's like some old episode called who Am I? With Robert. And he goes on this little. Actually, you know what? Do you guys want to hear it?

[Latif]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Okay.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Any human being.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Can you hear that?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Can take a white car and make it in their imagination.

[Latif Nasser]

He can paste red on it in his imagination.

[Unnamed Speaker]

But a monkey, you don't think can do it, cannot. And this is so simple for a human being to do. And let's run through a quick exercise. Imagine for me a bird in your head. Got a bird in there.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

I'm just going to cut forward a little bit.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Only a human being could do this, because only humans can take images from the real world, pull them into their heads, divide them into parts, and then start turning those parts into abstractions. Monkeys, says Ramachandran. Can't do that.

[Latif Nasser]

And you're sitting there like, ah, he.

[Latif]

Basically just called you a monkey.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

No, like, monkeys can visualize. Like, most of them just can't change the image. Robert says I'm worse than a monkey. And like, I know it's funny, but like, it's just. It also makes me sad. I want to disappear into books. When a book is like really descriptive. I'll just read the same paragraph again like five times and nothing will enter my brain.

[Latif Nasser]

Dense wall of words, huh?

[Latif]

Yeah.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And also. Yeah. Just thinking about. Oh, I don't get to. I just don't get to hold memories the way that all of you get to. Like, my memories aren't places I go. Like, I don't get to see or feel or touch them. I don't know. I almost want to make you guys, like, picture someone you love right now.

[Latif Nasser]

Got it.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And just like share what you see and how it feels.

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, it's weirdly like intimate, but just. Yeah, because you're just picturing. I mean, I'm thinking of Grace, my wife. And I'm thinking of like the little peach fuzz on her high part of her cheek and like a little crinkle, like the crinkles around her eyes. And yeah. I'm just kind of imagining her softening after a long day. Like I could picture the bathroom door light on behind her and she's turning back. Like that moment where the stress of the day melts and it's just like a little like, huh. Like a laugh, a little face shifting. Duties are done. Quick moment of connection and. Yeah, but it's very vivid. It's just like her face at a three quarter profile.

[Latif]

Okay. I had this flash to my great grandmother. Like she has bright red hair. Cause she would like henna dye her hair. And I can picture her sitting on a chair. She's sort of sitting there and like kind of laughing.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Like that. Like, I want that.

[Latif]

Yeah.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

You know, and it's like, ah.

[Latif Nasser]

Hmm.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And at one point in that conversation with that scientist, Joel, can you give.

[Lulu Miller]

Someone who has Aphantasia imagery?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah.

[Lulu Miller]

With the right approach, I think that would be possible. Yeah.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

He said he thinks he can give it to me.

[Latif Nasser]

Whoa, wait, how would he even do that?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah. So Joel found that when he ran this like very low electrical current through people's visual cortex, their imagery actually got stronger.

[Latif]

Whoa.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Now, he does think it would be more complicated for people who are starting out with no imagery.

[Lulu Miller]

I can't stimulate your brain and you can start speaking a new language. You have to learn that content first you have to learn how to connect your frontal cortex with your visual cortex to drive visual cortex. But I think there are ways we can do this with practice training with brain stimulation over some time could probably do it.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Have you tried?

[Lulu Miller]

We haven't done that yet. If you took someone who'd never had imagery and you gave them imagery, let's say in a week, I think that could be quite a dangerous thing.

[Latif]

What?

[Latif Nasser]

Why?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

I'll tell you why after the break.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This episode is brought to you by Ford. I'm here with our editor and electric vehicle owner, Blythe.

[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Wendy Zuckerman]

What's that?

[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Wendy Zuckerman]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Wendy Zuckerman]

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[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

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[Unnamed Speaker]

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[Derek]

If I want to experience flying, I can imagine it. And it's kind of like really flying. There were stars coming from the center of my vision to the outer edge of my vision or even planets. It depends on what I'm passing by. Large clouds that are like pink and yellow and maybe a little bit of blue mixed in there. I can feel the coolness of the air as it hits my skin. Kind of like a sound.

[Latif]

Lulu Latif, Radio Lab. We've been talking to our producer Sindhu, who cannot make images in her mind.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

That's right. Yeah. And the person you just heard, his name is Derek. And he is the opposite of me. Like, when I asked him to describe his apple, his description was wild.

[Derek]

I could make it red, or I can make it green or golden. I can make light radiate off of it. Like right now, I think it's interesting to make a cloud of thunderbolts coming off of the top of the apple. And now there's a village with people and they're running away from the storm because there's a tornado dropping down from the cloud. And there's one guy that jumped off of the apple, and now he's falling into this ocean down below the apple.

[Latif Nasser]

W. Wow. What?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And earlier we learned that there's a scientist who, like, maybe could give me that ability to be a little more like Derek.

[Latif]

Right. But he said it could be dangerous.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah, exactly. And the reason I'm telling you about Derek is because he's actually the one that helped me understand why.

[Latif Nasser]

Huh. Okay, so Derek, let's see.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

He's about my age.

[Derek]

I'm about to B30.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

He was born in New England, Massachusetts. Moved to Texas when he was 8. And he says as a kid he loved having this supercharged imagination.

[Derek]

I could just live in my head and imagine whatever I wanted. It was like living in virtual reality or whatever you want to call it.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Which was nice for him because real reality was pretty hard.

[Derek]

My mom and I, we were pretty poor. We stayed in a homeless shelter for a short while. We didn't really stay in one place for very long, so I never Got to know people and it was very, you know, here and there.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

But whenever Derek got sad or scared or like even just bored, he would close his eyes and just go into his imagination. Or sometimes he'd even do this thing where he would take something from his mind and plop it out into, like physical space. Like out into the physical world, huh?

[Derek]

Yeah. So I would be in a car and I'd be looking out the window. I would imagine this man. He would look like a superhero or something. And he would just be running really fast along all of these cars and then jumping and flying and doing flips. And by focusing really intensely, it's almost like I can switch to primarily the visualization and it can start to replace what I'm seeing more fully.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah. And you can always tell that it's a projection and not reality.

[Derek]

Yeah, I can tell it's a projection.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

But at a certain point he said that started to slip.

[Derek]

I graduated high school a year early and I didn't really want to go off into university, so I ended up moving to Seattle. I was really wanting to be somewhere more open minded where the tech industry was prominent because I am into computer programming.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

But the first job he got was at the Dollar Tree.

[Derek]

Couch. Surfed for a while and a few.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Months in, it wasn't going great.

[Derek]

Yeah, I was sleeping in a bed in someone's laundry room in their basement. So it was very much just like being on the sidelines of life really badly, wanting to find some kind of escape.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

One day he's sitting in his room and he has this idea.

[Derek]

I remember I had these coins.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

He picks up two dimes he has lying around, and he decides he's going to play a little game with himself. Flipping both coins, trying to get them to land the same way. He flips them in the air, looks down at the coins, and they're both the same. They're both heads or tails. He doesn't remember which. And then he flips them again. They land the same. He does it again the same.

[Derek]

I was flipping over and over again.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And he starts to believe that he.

[Derek]

Can control them, that I could make them land on whatever I wanted them.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

To, like using his mind.

[Derek]

If I wanted them to both land heads up, then they would land heads up. If I wanted them to land heads down, they would land heads down.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

So he'd flip the coins and think to himself, heads up. And you'd see they were both heads up.

[Derek]

Do it again, heads down. And they'd both be heads down, heads up. I remember feeling like Heads down. It was some superpower. Heads up. Heads down. Heads up.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Derek says what happened next gets kind of foggy.

[Derek]

Unfortunately, I don't remember much from the night. I don't remember much from the psychosis.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

But he now knows that as he was flipping those coins, whenever they would.

[Derek]

Land, I would project onto them whatever I wanted them to look, so I would see them heads up if I wanted them to be heads up. But whether or not they were really heads up, I don't really know.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

I see. So you stop being able to tell the difference between an imagination and reality.

[Derek]

Yeah, basically.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And at some point later that night.

[Derek]

I couldn't tell you what time it was, but it was dark.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Derek's roommates kicked him out.

[Derek]

You know, I wasn't hurting anyone. I wasn't harmful or anything like that. They just didn't know what to do with me and they didn't want to. They didn't want it to be their responsibility because they couldn't get me to go to the hospital or anything.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Derek wandered around all night and actually ended up living on the street for several years.

[Latif]

Wow.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

He does eventually get a diagnosis, schizophrenia, and he gets on medication for that. And he says that things are better, but he still sometimes experiences psychotic episodes.

[Latif Nasser]

Is the hyperphantasia a common symptom of.

[Latif]

Schizophrenia or like common co occurrence?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

So according to neuroscientist Joel Pearson, you.

[Lulu Miller]

See this link between very strong imagery and schizophrenia.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

They do seem to be correlated. And it's not just schizophrenia.

[Unnamed Speaker]

It broadens beyond that.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

This is clinical psychologist and neuroscientist Emily Holmes.

[Unnamed Speaker]

People who are highly disposed to thinking images may be slightly more anxious.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

She brought up certain anxiety disorders, things like phobias.

[Unnamed Speaker]

For example, if you were afraid of spiders, you might experience bits of imagery of spiders with terribly big teeth and fangs. And also perhaps the hallmark disorder is post traumatic stress disorder, in which people relive vivid mental images of events that have been traumatic in the past.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Now, of course, having strong imagery doesn't mean you're going to have any of these disorders or not having it doesn't protect you from them.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Right.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

But it does seem that being able to make really vivid pictures in your mind makes them more likely laying in.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Bed and remembering stupid stuff you said when you were, like, in third grade or eighth grade or, you know, times you were bullied.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

The people with hyperphantasia that I spoke to, they also told me about these other ways that mental imagery actually makes their life harder.

[Unnamed Speaker]

Very difficult to listen to news where, you know, there's a war going on, you know, when there's a mass shooting. When the boys were trapped in the mine in Thailand. Like, I am, like, in the mine, you know, it's just like sound of the water dripping off and falling into water below and, like, the boys being stressed and their breathing and the humidity, like anybody suffering at all, I cannot not see it.

I can visualize, you know, being yelled at. I can see the looks on everyone's faces. My muscles will tense up. I think when I was a child, I think I was a little bit more in the moment before. Before I had stacked up layers and layers of trauma.

[Latif Nasser]

So whether it's looking back in sort of like PTSD or looking forward in anxiety, like a potential worry, like a. It's just so visual that it. It kind of, like, drums up the body's emotional.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah, exactly. Like, imagery can really turn up emotions.

[Latif Nasser]

It is. I mean, it's like. It's the whole blessing and a curse, or like a gift, but not without a cost. Like, you get an escape hatch. Like, Derek can just fly off into space.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

And that can be a gift. But then it sounds like you get this sometimes, these hauntings that then you can't escape.

[Latif]

Well, and that it's kind of about control. Like, if you can control this, this is an amazing superpower. But if it controls you.

[Latif Nasser]

Right, right, right.

[Latif]

That's. This is terrifying.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And actually, like, part of what Emily does is teach people how to gain some of this control.

[Unnamed Speaker]

So if we take the spider example, you could shrink or turn it green and push it away. Like, it's more distant, like, literally, visually. And it's a way of showing I'm controlling you. You're not controlling me, and you're not real.

[Latif Nasser]

Wow.

[Latif]

Wow. It's like she's like the real life, you know, Professor Xavier teaching the X Men how to control their powers. That's so cool. But what about you? Do you still want imagery?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

I mean, after all my reporting? Honestly, no.

[Latif]

Really?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah. I mean, I have no practice with it. I feel like it could be kind of a bad trip that I can't get out of.

[Latif]

Well, what if you could just get, like, a little bit?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah. Yeah. Although, you know, the more I've been thinking about it, the more I'm like, I just have such a clean, empty space inside of me.

[Latif]

Oh. So it's like, it's not the fear of having the pictures. It's like appreciating not having them.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Huh.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Yeah. Like, I am not gonna see poetry the way you see poetry or experience my memories in some sort of, like, rich sensory way. But, like, I do have a meditation practice. And I was like, whoa. Like, there's so much more to quiet if you're dealing not just with words and ideas, but actually, like, images.

[Latif Nasser]

More stuff to sweep out of there. Yeah.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

So I think I'm good.

[Latif Nasser]

You're good with where you are. You reported your way out of lust. You were like, actually, I don't want it.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

But also just beyond myself. I really do think it's a good thing for the world that there's a spectrum. And, you know, there's all these different brains thinking in all these different ways.

[Latif]

You know, but there's also a kind of like. Like, the diversity means we're more, like, marooned in our own heads a little bit. Like, where there's a novel that you'll love, and I'll, like, look at it and be like, I have. Like, I just. I can't even. Like, I don't even.

[Latif Nasser]

I can't read this description of a rhododendron bush.

[Latif]

Yeah, yeah.

[Latif Nasser]

Or.

[Latif]

Or even a memory. Like, it's like we were both in the same place at the same time, experienced the same thing, and then a year later, we're talking about it and it. Like, we remember it in a totally different way. Yeah. I don't know. Like, which is. There is something sad about that.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

And that probably leads to, like, so much miscommunication and misunderstanding and conflict. Conflict. You know, it's like being like, why are you so obsessive about this thing that happened?

[Latif]

It's like, why can't you see this?

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Exactly.

[Latif]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

But I think for that problem, it's like, we all just need to understand better, I think, just how differently our brains work.

[Latif]

Right.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Wait, can I play you guys one last thing?

[Latif Nasser]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Go for it.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Okay. So, you know, I was just talking about meditating. It's something I love to do. Well, when I was talking to Derek, the guy with that super intense imagery, I asked him what he likes to do, like, what he does for fun, and I just need to share it with you.

[Derek]

I also practice harsh metal vocals just for fun. People have told me I should try and get into a band, but I don't think that's really my goal or anything.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

What is harsh metal vocals?

[Derek]

Do you want an example?

[Unnamed Speaker]

Yeah.

[Derek]

Okay. Prepare your eardrums.

[Sindhu Nyanasambandan]

Okay. Whoa.

[Derek]

Or. Wow.

[Lulu Miller]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That was an episode from Radiolab. Full credits are in the show notes. And the team at Radiolab actually have a new family friendly show which is called Terrestrials. There's episodes about stumps and sharks and arctic squirrels and loads more. So go check it out. Science Verses will be back next week. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you, then.