Manifesting: How Powerful Are Our Thoughts?

Summary

Science Vs – "Manifesting: How Powerful Are Our Thoughts?"

Host: Wendy Zuckerman (Spotify Studios)
Date: December 11, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Science Vs tackles the pervasive cultural phenomenon of manifesting—the belief that by thinking positively about your desires, you can make them reality. Host Wendy Zuckerman and senior producer Rose Rimler examine what evidence underpins or debunks these popular claims. Through interviews with psychologists and a review of key scientific studies, they separate fact from feel-good fiction, and explore whether you really can think your dream life into existence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Is Manifesting? (00:15–03:29)

• Manifesting has become mainstream, with influencers swearing it works—from jobs to relationships and even material goods:
  • “I manifested my green card, a nespresso machine.” (01:34)
  • About a third of surveyed people believe in manifestation’s power.
• Influencers’ advice typically: focus on what you want, imagine you have it, and act as if already fulfilled.

2. Personal Manifesting Experiments (03:29–05:37)

• Wendy and Rose attempt their own manifestations:
  • Rose aims for a successful open-water swim race.
  • Wendy tries to banish rain every time she needs to ride her bike, drawing on her childhood belief she could "make clouds disappear."
• Acknowledgement that focusing on what you want could subtly influence your actions, raising the question of whether there's something to this approach.

3. The “Best Possible Self” Exercise (05:53–09:37)

• Interview with Dr. Laura King (University of Missouri):
  • Dr. King’s early 2000s study: Participants wrote about their “best possible self” for 20 minutes, four days in a row:
    • “Imagine that you have succeeded at attaining all your life goals… your happily ever after…” (07:20)
  • Result: Immediate mood boost and increased optimism, with effects lasting weeks.
    • “People walked out of that lab feeling fantastic.” (07:38)
    • “A review paper called this exercise ‘a viable intervention for increasing optimism, positive affect, health and well-being.’” (08:17)
  • Limitation: No data on whether these positive imaginings led to real-world success. No long-term follow-up.
    • “Did you make it come true? I have no idea.” – Dr. King (09:48)

4. Manifesting vs. Reality: What Does the Data Say? (15:04–18:46)

• Interview with Dr. Gabriela Oettingen (NYU):

  • Longitudinal study of grad students: Those frequently fantasizing about career success were less successful years later.
    • “The more positively these university graduates fantasized about their success in work life, the less successful they were two years later.” – Oettingen (16:21)
    • They submitted fewer job applications and earned lower salaries than less frequent fantasizers.
  • Another survey: Believers in manifesting more likely to take risky financial investments (e.g., crypto), and more likely to declare bankruptcy.

• Key Insight:

  • Fantasizing feels good, but can backfire if it replaces actual effort.
    • “If you already feel accomplished, what do you do? You relax.” – Oettingen (18:58)
  • Physiological evidence: Blood pressure drops during fantasy (relaxed), perhaps reducing motivation.

• Important Distinction:

  • General optimism (believing things, in general, will work out) correlates with better outcomes; fantasizing about specific desired results does not.

5. Science-Backed Goal Setting: What Actually Works? (20:16–23:32)

• To achieve goals, science suggests a method called “mental contrasting”:

  • Hack #1: Imagine your desired goal and realistically consider potential obstacles.
    • Works better than just positive thinking or focusing only on hurdles.
    • “This technique has gotten people to do more exercise, to deal with issues at work, and even gotten children to do their homework…” (21:40)
  • Hack #2: Use “If-Then” planning statements:
    • Example: “If I forget my pill, then I will use a condom next time.” (22:03)
    • Results: Teen girls using this method halved the rate of pregnancy compared to control.
    • A meta-analysis showed a small-to-medium positive effect on goal achievement.

  “People using these two hacks…achieving their goals using these methods.” (23:12)

6. The Role of Coincidence & Confirmation Bias (23:41–25:09)

• Wendy’s bike rides stayed dry, but she and Rose chalk it up to increased awareness and confirmation bias.

• If you want something badly, you look for evidence it’s come true and ignore counter-examples.

  “Classic confirmation bias for sure.” – Rose Rimler (25:09)

7. Human Nature: Making Meaning from Coincidence (25:24–28:16)

• Dr. King shares a personal anecdote (“I caused an earthquake by singing a high note!”) to illustrate how humans naturally link random events to themselves.
  • “That’s how human cognitive processes are…something big happens, and we’re like, whoa, what did I do?” – King (28:07)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On societal beliefs:
  “Manifesting is real.” (00:32)
• On mood benefits:
  “People walked out of that lab feeling fantastic. Dr. King, I love your research. I love this study.” (07:38)
• On manifesting’s downside:
  “The more positively these university graduates fantasized about their success in work life, the less successful they were two years later.” – Dr. Oettingen (16:21)
• On confirmation bias:
  “You would just notice moving forward every time that it did supposedly work, and you might not notice every time it didn’t really work.” – Rose Rimler (24:49)
• Eureka moment:
  “I caused an earthquake, right?” – Dr. King (26:48)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:15 — Introduction to manifesting and its popularity
• 03:29 — Wendy and Rose set personal manifestation challenges
• 06:27 — Dr. Laura King introduces “best possible self” research
• 09:48 — Admissions: no evidence manifesting brings real change
• 15:04 — Dr. Gabriela Oettingen explains manifesting backfiring
• 21:00 — “Hacks”: mental contrasting and “if-then” plans
• 23:47 — Wendy’s bike experiment outcome and discussion of bias
• 25:24 — “I caused an earthquake!” story, meaning-making in coincidence
• 29:12 — Rose’s swim race “manifestation” results

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Conclusion

Science Vs reveals that while manifesting and vivid fantasizing about your goals can give you a temporary happiness boost, there is no good evidence that positive thinking alone brings dreams to life. In fact, too much fantasizing can backfire, reducing real-world success. The most effective, science-based approach to achieving goals is to combine optimism with realistic planning—anticipate obstacles and make concrete “if-then” plans. In the end, while imagining success feels good, it’s action and preparation—and a dose of realism—that help dreams come true.

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For further reading, the episode references 32 citations available in the transcript’s show notes.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science versus.

Today. On the show, we are pitting facts against finessing your future.

We are looking into manifesting. Can you really use the power of your mind to create the future that you want? Because according to folks online, the answer is yes. It's real, man. Manifesting is real.

[B]

This.

[C]

It works.

[A]

What I'm about to tell you is going to change your life. And here's what you need to do to change your life. You focus on what you want and then act as if you already have it.

[C]

While you're writing this or typing this.

[D]

I want you to genuinely feel the emotions as if that thing has already happened to you.

[A]

So what would it feel like if you received what it is that you desired? How happy would you would that moment look like? We're method acting.

[D]

We're cosplaying our future self.

[A]

And before you know it, whatever you wished for will appear. And this idea that just by thinking about what you want, you can get it, it's become almost mainstream. One survey of over 300 people found that about a third of them believed manifestation could be real. And people say they've manifested all sorts of things. I manifested my crush. I also manifested some spe opportunities, some partnerships. This is how I lost weight. A size 16 to a size 4.

[D]

Literally.

[A]

I manifested my green card, a nespresso machine.

[B]

I actually manifested a full man.

[A]

And maybe it sounds strange that you could think your way to an espresso machine or a green card or a full man, but scientists have actually been studying the best way to achieve your goals for years. And that's what we're telling you about today. So get ready for your dreams to come true. Because when it comes to manifesting, there's a lot of what I'm about to tell you is going to change your life. But then there's science.

Science versus manifesting is coming up just after the break. As long as you believe it to be true.

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[A]

Welcome back. Today we are manifesting our futures. We're making dreams come true. And look, already one of your dreams is going to come true. Cause senior producer Rose Ribbler's in the room.

[D]

Sounds like you manifested some coffee not too long ago.

[A]

Hi. Hello.

[D]

Hi, Wendy. So a few weeks ago, just so the audience knows, we each decided we were gonna manifest something. Try. Try to do this.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And you were gonna try to manifest doing well in a swimming race?

[D]

Yeah. So I am going. I signed up to swim an open water race and swimming a mile at the beach and I've never done that before.

So that's what I decided to manifest. Like, just like a good race, safe race, finishing the race and not coming in last because there's also ego involved.

[A]

Have you done this yet? Have you done the race yet?

[D]

It's in a few days.

[A]

Okay. So as we were chatting, we thought your manifestation goal, you know, it's kind of in your control, but we thought maybe write up the ante a little for what I'm trying to manifest. Uh huh. And so I. Here's what I'm doing. I'm trying to manifest every time I need to write my bike, it will not rain.

[D]

I feel like that's a good one. Cause it's very like, universe, do me a solid.

[A]

Yeah, that's right. And what I didn't tell you at the time, Rose, is that as a.

[E]

Kid.

[A]

I believed, convinced myself that I could indeed make clouds disappear.

[D]

Oh, so you were drawing on an ancient power.

[A]

So when we would go on family trips, I have very distinct memories of mum saying, you know, we're gonna go on a hike today, Wendy, so no clouds please. And me being like, I've got it. And I would stare at the clouds and think, dissipate, dissipate. You know, sometimes it work.

[D]

So you kind of believe this. It sounds like.

[A]

Away from rain clouds. I do get part of this. You know, if you focus on what you want subconsciously, you'll make steps to achieve it. Or consciously, I don't know, is there something to this?

[D]

Well, let's dive in. So believe it or not, there is a scientist who has studied something that's an awful lot like a manifestation meditation. The kind of thing you might hear from These influencers. Her name is Laura King. She is a professor of psychology at the University of Missouri in Columbia. When I got on the horn with her, I chatted with her a bit about all the tiktoks that I've been watching lately. And, you know, interesting though, the comments section is full of people saying that it worked. They manifested their ex boyfriend texting them, wanting them back. How do we explain that?

[B]

Because life is super fun. I mean, I'm a fan of magic. When it happens, I think it feels super meaningful to people.

But it's not. It's magic with a little M, not a big one.

[D]

So I got in touch with Laura because of the study she did back in the early 2000s. She had about 80 college students come into the lab and do 20 minutes of journaling. And they did this for four days in a row.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

And they were given different topics to write about. Like, one group was told to write about their plans for the day. That was like the control group, just this neutral, kind of boring topic. Another group was told to write about a traumatic event that they'd gone through. And there was a third group, and this is where the manifestation part comes in. They were told to write about their best possible self, which went like this.

[B]

Think for a moment about their life in the future. Their best possible life in the future. Imagine that you have succeeded at attaining all of your life goals, and think of this as the kind of happily ever after for your life.

[D]

And the people given this prompt loved it.

[B]

People walked out of that lab feeling fantastic, right? Like, oh, Dr. King, I love your research. I love this study. Anytime.

[D]

Just by imagining their best possible self. This had a real effect on people's moods, something that Laura could actually measure.

[A]

Oh, that's cool.

[D]

But what's really intriguing and what intrigued Laura and other scientists who ended up doing their own versions of this study later on, is that the effects seem to actually last a while.

[A]

Wait, just feeling good. That lasted longer. How much longer?

[D]

Well, Laura checked in on them three weeks later and found that they were better off than the people who had.

[A]

Done the other prompts three weeks later. Yeah, three weeks later.

[D]

And other studies since then have had people do this best possible self exercise and found similar things. In fact, a few years ago, a review paper called this exercise, quote, a viable intervention for increasing optimism. Positive affects health and well being.

[A]

Wow. So why does it work?

[D]

We don't really know. Laura doesn't know. But her best guess is that it has to do with putting sort of smaller everyday things into context. Like Sort of adding some perspective about why we do the little things that we do every day. Sort of like, what is the ultimate purpose of all this stuff, which is.

[B]

Something that we often forget right. In the everyday kind of mundane hassles and the stuff that we're trying to accomplish. Right. At the end of the day, you checked off all your boxes, you feel good. But when you've placed that to do list in a larger, grander context, it also gives you meaning.

[D]

So, Wendy, the bottom line is that thinking about a bright future for yourself feels good.

[A]

Yes. Yes. But then the question becomes, does it end up being true? Cause manifesting, the mythology of manifesting it.

[D]

Goes a step further.

[A]

It's not just, you know what's a really nice thing to do? Just picture your goals and dreams. You'll feel great. They say those dreams will happen.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So will they happen.

[D]

So I asked Laura about that. So do people, after they do the best possible selves intervention actually make their best possible self come true?

[B]

I have no idea. I don't know. But I don't know. I don't know, Laura.

[A]

Why don't you know?

[D]

They didn't test for it. They didn't follow them, you know, 10, 20 years later or whatever. And as far as I can tell of all these, all these studies that like, had people do the best possible self thing, none of them actually, like, that wasn't their goal. They didn't, they didn't find, they didn't follow up and see, like, did you make it come true?

[A]

So who do we need for this? For our big M magic?

[D]

I don't know if I could offer you big M magic, but I can offer you big S science.

[A]

I'll take it.

[D]

I do have some answers for you about that. And it's gonna come up after the break.

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[A]

Welcome back. Today we are manifesting. We are trying to make our dreams come true with our minds. Senior producer Rose Rimler is telling us all about it.

[D]

Hello, Wendy. So, yeah, I wanted to check in about your manifesting experience. You said that you were manifesting sunny days while bike riding, or at least no rain.

[A]

Mm.

[D]

And you sent me some evidence that you were doing your homework.

[A]

That's right. I'm a good student. There is this gray cloud looming.

It will not rain. It will not rain.

The great cloud that I see before me will dissipate. It will not rain.

[D]

And I, too, have been trying to manifest something. A good swim.

[J]

So I'm imagining that I'm in the water. I'm towards the end of the race.

I'm watching everyone on shore cheering. And as I'm swimming, the water is getting shallower and shallower. I'm getting up to the shore and I get out of the water and I cross the finish line, and I'm just celebrating with everyone and eating a hot dog, maybe. And then I check the results later, and I'm fifth place.

[D]

I love it.

[A]

You're like, you can manifest whatever you want you could have in first place.

[D]

Oh, yeah, you're right. You're right.

[G]

Right?

[D]

Oh, I'm ruining it. I'm sending out my negative vibes. Of course.

[A]

And you're thinking, no, no, no, no manifesting dreams.

[B]

I want to be fifth.

[A]

I don't even need a medal.

It's all Rose. And you call yourself American.

[D]

Remember how? Remember my score on the Narciss?

So the idea here behind this whole thing is that you're supposed to be putting out positive vibrations into the universe, and then the universe will match your positive vibrations. I've heard it described as like turning yourself into an antenna that you tune to what frequency you want the universe to be on. So you send the.

[A]

This is how manifestation is supposed to work.

[D]

Yeah. Basically, I'm summarizing a bunch of different schools of thoughts, because this whole concept has been around at least a century. And, you know, there was this big book that came out about it a while back, the Secret, if you remember that.

[A]

Yes. Wow.

[D]

But moving away from vibes, the big science question here is, does the act of, like, thinking about manifesting something up, your chances that you'll actually get what you want? And for this, we need Gabriela Etienne. She's a professor of psychology at New York University. And her research is all about how people turn their wishes and fantasies into things that they can actually achieve. So she had this one big experiment where one of the things that they did was they recruited students who were in their last year of grad school and asked them, do you ever have, you know, positive fantasies about your future job once you get out of grad school? And she found that some people just naturally do this a lot. They do this more than other people. And so what's cool about the study is she followed up a couple years later and asked them, basically, like, how is it going with your career? Are you getting a lot of job offers? Are you making a good salary?

[G]

And what we find is that the more positively these university graduates fantasize about their success in work life, the less successful they were two years later.

[A]

The more positively that they fantasized, the less successful they were.

[D]

It basically backfired.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

The more they dreamed about, like, getting a job and having a job that they liked that paid them well, the less likely they were to have a job to. They had less. They reported having, like, fewer job offers, and they made less money than people who didn't really fantasize about that stuff.

[A]

Wow. Wow. So less job offers, less money. Totally different to those folks on socials we were hearing from before.

[D]

And I found other examples of manifesting, backfiring. There was a survey of almost 400 people that found the ones who believed in manifesting the most were more likely to have made risky financial investments. They did stuff like they bought crypto. They believed in some, like, get rich quick stuff. And they were more likely to have declared bankruptcy than other people.

[E]

Ooh.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[D]

Which made me think of all the advice from manifesting people about how you need to spend so much time, you know, daydreaming and like, just thinking about all these good things that are gonna come to you. So that sounds actually like, pretty. Given your results, maybe that's really bad advice.

[G]

It's good advice if you want to just feel good. It makes you feel good. We found that too. But if you really want to go and get your fantasies in reality, then it's bad advice.

[A]

And does Gabrielle know why it backfired?

[D]

Well, what might be going on is that the people who were fantasizing more were putting in less work to actually get what they wanted. Like, Gabriela found that those graduate students that she followed up with two years later, the ones who fantasized a lot, they weren't putting in as many job applications as their peers. And there was a similar study she did about college students fantasizing about getting good grades. And the ones who fantasize the most about their good grades spent less time studying. So Gabriela thinks that this backfiring effect is all about where you put your energy.

[G]

Maybe people don't put so much effort into, in their realization of the positive fantasies.

[D]

They spend too much time off in la la land. They forget to actually fill out their.

[G]

Job too much time. And what we later found in the experiments is that they feel already arrived. They feel already in the positive future. Our mind is very strong. So they feel in the positive future. And if you already feel accomplished, what do you do? You relax.

[D]

Yeah. It's not just that people were less motivated. She's also seen a physiological reaction in people's bodies. So in a study where they had people fantasize while they measured their blood pressure, she found that their blood pressure actually went down while they were fantasizing.

[A]

So her idea is that as you're fantasizing and feeling good and relaxed, you just have less fire in your ass to actually go out and then accomplish these goals. That's how Gabrielle thinks about it.

[D]

Yeah, that's right. And I will say this is different from sort of generally having a positive or optimistic outlook on life. You know, being a person who kind of generally believes that things will go okay for you, things will work out. That's actually associated with good outcomes, even being good for your health, but fantasizing, not so much.

[A]

So then I guess for folks who do have goals and want to achieve them, has science learned a better way to do this? Do we have a science backed way to manifest?

[D]

Yeah, I mean, there's actually a whole branch of psychology that's dedicated to figuring out how to Help people set and achieve goals, and we can draw from that.

[A]

Great.

[D]

It turns out a critical thing is not being too Pollyanna about what you want. You actually have to consider the hard stuff or bad stuff that might come up and might get in your way.

[A]

Which is the exact opposite to TikTok. Right. Which is say. It's just saying, you know, just focus on.

[D]

Just think about what you want. Yeah. And scientists like Gabriella have come up with some, I guess, you know, to compete with our TikTok colleagues out there. We should probably call them hacks.

[A]

Right? Okay. So hack number one, think about your obstacles.

[D]

Yeah. And Gabrielle has tested this by having people pick a goal. Imagine why that goal would be so great, you know, but then also imagine what the obstacles might be to getting there. So, like, add in a splash of realism.

And she's found that this approach works better than just focusing on the goal or just focusing on the obstacles. You need both together.

[G]

Great.

[D]

And she's done experiments where this technique has gotten people to do more exercise, to deal with issues at work, and has even gotten children to do their homework. So that's really something.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[D]

But if you really want to take it up a notch, you got to go a little further. Which brings us to hack 2 use if then statements.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

I remember these.

[D]

Yeah. From our ADHD episode. So these come up in ADHD coping strategies as well. So the idea is to think up specific obstacles that could come up in, you know, stopping you from getting your goal. And think about what you're gonna do if that obstacle comes up and put it in the statement if blank, then why? So if this happens, then I'll do why. For example, there was a study of tea girls who wanted to avoid getting pregnant. And the researchers had half the girls do this exercise where they made if then statements about what could go wrong with their birth control. They said stuff like, if I forget to take my pill one day, then I will, you know, use a condom the next time I have sex. Or.

[A]

Right.

[D]

If my partner doesn't want to use a condom, then I will, I don't.

[A]

Know, tell them to off.

[D]

Yeah. And researchers followed up with these people a couple years later and found that in the group that made these if then planning statements, there were half as many pregnancies among them.

[B]

Whoa.

[D]

Compared to a control group.

[A]

Uh huh. Wow. Wow.

[D]

A review paper found that overall, people using these two hacks, imagining an obstacle to their goal and then coming up with an if then statement for what to do generally works pretty well. The paper found a Small to medium effect size for people achieving their goals using these methods.

[A]

A small to medium effect, which in.

[D]

Psychology is not bad.

[A]

I mean, that's true. That's the world. That's. The entire field of psychology is based on small to medium effect sizes.

[D]

And actually, Wendy, now I guess I can finally ask you, did you get rained on?

[A]

Nope.

[D]

Oh, forget it. Throw the whole episode out. Manifestation works. Oh my God.

[A]

Sometimes it was. Yeah, it was really quite surprising. I would arrive at my destination and rain would start.

[D]

Well, Wendy, you may very well be a weather witch and I wish that for you, right? But actually, like, seriously, what do you think explains that?

[A]

Um, coincidence, of course.

[D]

Uh huh.

[A]

But you know what? Maybe because I was really wanted it to happen, I was probably just way more aware of the weather than I normally would. So leading up to the time I would have to go, I wouldn't cheat, I wouldn't look at the radar. But maybe if I'm being really honest with myself, I would think, you know what, I could see some clouds off in the distance, but it's looking pretty good now.

[D]

I'll go now instead of.

[B]

I'll just leave a little earlier.

[A]

I'll leave.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just became hyper aware of the weather.

[A]

Yeah, I think so.

[D]

Plus, I mean, I think if you were to keep doing this, there might be times when you get like a little drizzled on and you're like, oh, it doesn't count. Or I don't know, you would just notice moving forward every time that it did supposedly work and you might not notice every time it didn't really work. Classic confirmation bias for sure.

[A]

Of course.

[D]

And also, I think a lot of us have a certain amount of main character syndrome. I'm not accusing you, Wendy, but definitely, definitely not.

[A]

Fifth place, Rose.

[D]

It reminds me actually of a story that Laura King told me. She's the psychologist that we heard from earlier. It was about something that happened to her when she was in college. And at the time she was training to be a singer and she was at a voice lesson one day and.

[B]

I was trying to hit this high note and trying to hit this high note and I could not do it. So at the end of my lesson, like the last few minutes of my lesson, my teacher said, let's try this one more time. And so he's running up the scale, and he's running up the scale and I'm trying to hit that note. And when you're trying to hit that really high note, right, you're almost whooping as if you're making a siren sound, right? Like a child. And so I'm making this noise, and suddenly this, you know, I opened my mouth as wide as I could, and I hit the note, and I sustained that note. And I stood there on this stage, and this amazing sound is coming out of me. And then the building started to shake, and the floor of the stage is shivering under my feet. And this old building's like.

Snow is falling off the roof in these groom bloom. And I'm saying, standing there, sustaining this note, right? I caused an earthquake, right? In rural Ohio in the middle of January. I'm standing there.

And I'm thinking, oh, my God, right? Like, I caused an earthquake.

[A]

This is incredible.

[B]

I felt like I had discovered my superpower, right? And I'm thinking. I'm standing there thinking, I will only use these powers for good. My. My voice teacher, who was a very, you know, religious slash spiritual man, like, I am not kidding you got down on his knees and started praying at the piano bench.

[D]

Wow. Okay.

[B]

So this became a kind of super meaningful personal touchstone, right? Like, I'll never forget that time I caused an earthquake.

[D]

Of course not.

[B]

And I just shared the story. Story so many times. And then a few years ago, I thought, did that happen?

[D]

Yeah. You're like, wait, what?

[B]

And so I started looking it up, and it turns out there was an earthquake on this day in January in Ohio at exactly that time. And that's when I started thinking about, oh, my God, like, all over Ohio. So many people caused that earthquake, right? So many. Like, someone slammed a door and it started. Someone sneezed really hard. Someone turned on their hair dryer, right?

[J]

Yeah.

[B]

All of us caused that earthquake because that's how human cognitive processes are, right? Something big happens, and we're like, whoa, what did I do?

[E]

Mm.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So, Rose, your swim. Your big swim is in a couple of days, right?

[D]

Yes. So, yeah, I'll call you afterwards. I'll let you know how it went.

[A]

Great. Good luck.

[E]

Hello?

[D]

Hello, Wendy? It is. I. I have. I have completed my race. I don't know why I said it like that.

[A]

Did you have a good swim?

[D]

Yes, the weather was perfect.

[A]

Well, you're welcome.

[D]

Crowd cheering on the other actually, yeah, it did kind of end the way I had envisioned it in my goal that I, you know, I was swimming, the water was getting shallower and shallower, and people were cheering and, like, waving me in. And.

That part came true.

[A]

But the big question, fifth place.

[D]

I got 71st place.

[A]

But you said for your age category.

[D]

Did that change it in my age category.

[A]

How do you feel? That's your first open water swim.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, I feel good. And I have one more thing to tell you, Wendy.

[A]

Oh yeah.

[D]

This week there were 32 citations in this episode.

[A]

Oh great.

[D]

If people want to see them, they should click on the link in our show notes for our transcript. And that's where all the citations are.

[A]

Great. Thanks, Rez.

[D]

Thanks, Wendy.

[A]

This episode was produced by Rose Rimler with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman, Kedi Foster, Keys, Michelle Dang and Meryl Horne. We're edited by Blythe Terrell, fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord. Music written by Emma Munger. So Wiley, Peter Leonard, Bumi Hidaka and Bobby Lord. Thanks to all of the researchers we reached out to for this episode, including Dr. Lucas Dixon. A special thanks to Mark Johnson. Science Versus is a Spotify Studios original. Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We are everywhere and if you like what we're doing, give us a five star review. It helps others find the show. If you are listening on Spotify, follow us and tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come out. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.