Microplastics: How Worried Should You Be?

Summary

Science Vs: Microplastics – How Worried Should You Be?

Release Date: October 3, 2024 | Host: Wendy Zuckerman | Producer: Rose Rimler

---

Introduction to the Microplastics Issue

In the episode titled "Microplastics: How Worried Should You Be?", hosts Wendy Zuckerman and senior producer Rose Rimler delve into the pervasive world of microplastics and their potential impact on human health. The conversation is anchored by a captivating story from Professor Patricia Hunt, who recounts an unexpected discovery in her lab involving disorganized chromosomes in mouse egg cells—a finding that inadvertently shed light on the insidious presence of microplastics.

The Prevalence of Microplastics

The discussion begins with an exploration of the sheer volume of plastic produced since the 1950s. Rose Rimler points out, "[07:42] There are 8 billion tons of plastic on earth today," highlighting the planet's inundation with this resilient material. Unlike organic matter, plastics do not decompose easily due to the absence of microorganisms capable of breaking them down, leading to persistent microplastics and nanoplastics that fragment into ever-smaller particles.

Health Impacts of Microplastics

Association with Heart Disease

A pivotal study from Italy is examined, where scientists discovered microplastics in the arterial plaque of over half the 257 patients studied. Rose explains, "[09:35] People who had the most microplastics in their plaque had the highest chance of having a heart attack, a stroke, or dying in those three years." While this association does not establish causation, it raises significant concerns about the potential role of microplastics in cardiovascular health.

Endocrine Disruptors and Hormonal Effects

The conversation shifts to the role of endocrine-disrupting chemicals (EDCs) found in plastics. Rose describes EDCs as "tricksters" that interfere with hormone receptors, leading to disrupted hormonal signals essential for growth, metabolism, and reproduction. Patricia Hunt emphasizes the severity of this disruption: "[14:23] I think of it kind of as radio static... And here's the static in the system."

Obesity Epidemic Connection

One of the most intriguing discussions centers on the potential link between EDCs and the rising obesity rates. Fred Vamsal, a professor emeritus at the University of Missouri, suggests that these chemicals may be contributing to the obesity epidemic. Rose notes, "[16:43] Plastic production started ramping up in the 50s, 60s. In 1962, 13% of American adults were considered obese. These days, it's over 40%."

Effects on Reproductive Health

Early Puberty

The episode explores the trend of earlier puberty onset in girls, with Rose citing a study showing a shift from an average age of 11 to around 10 years old. Patricia Hunt connects this to EDCs that mimic estrogen, potentially triggering premature hormonal changes: "[27:00] Estrogen plays a pretty big role in that."

Fertility Issues

Fertility is another area of concern, with studies indicating that higher levels of EDCs correlate with lower sperm counts and reduced egg quality. Rose explains, "[28:20] Couples who have issues having kids tend to have more of these chemicals in their bodies compared to couples who get pregnant easily."

The Myth vs Reality of Microplastic Consumption

While the dangers of microplastics are substantiated, the episode addresses sensationalist claims about the extent of exposure. Rose debunks the widely circulated myth that individuals consume a "credit card's worth of plastic a week," clarifying that newer, more reliable studies estimate consumption to be significantly lower. She states, "[34:08] It would take 23,497 years to get a credit card's worth of microplastics," underscoring the hyperbolic nature of some headlines.

Practical Steps to Reduce Exposure

Despite some exaggerated claims, minimizing exposure to microplastics and EDCs remains prudent. Rose offers practical advice based on consultations with researchers:

• Reduce Plastic Use Around Food: Avoid heating plastic containers in microwaves or dishwashers to prevent chemical leaching.
• Choose Alternatives: Opt for glass or stainless-steel containers and consider products with minimal plastic packaging.
• Personal Care Products: Switch to solid shampoo bars or products packaged in non-plastic containers to reduce exposure from lotions and shampoos.
• Avoid Canned Foods: Whenever possible, choose fresh or frozen foods over canned alternatives to limit ingestion of chemicals from can linings.

Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode concludes with a balanced perspective: while some concerns about microplastics and their health impacts are valid and backed by scientific evidence, others may be overstated. Rose summarizes, "[40:51] We’re not eating a credit card worth of plastic a week. It is worth your time and energy trying to avoid this stuff without making yourself crazy."

Notable Quotes

• Patricia Hunt on Chromosome Disorganization: “[00:25] ... something that was huge.”
• Endocrine Disruptors as 'Radio Static': “[14:23] ... it's all by these finely tuned signals. And, you know, they're involved in so much.”
• Obesity and Plastic Connection: “[16:43] ... Obesity has tripled in the past 50 years.”
• Debunking Microplastic Myths: “[34:08] ... it would take 23,497 years to get a credit card's worth of microplastics.”

Final Thoughts

"Microplastics: How Worried Should You Be?" offers a comprehensive examination of the current understanding of microplastics and their potential health implications. While urging caution, the hosts emphasize the importance of evidence-based approaches to navigating the complex landscape of plastic consumption and its effects on human health.

---

For a detailed list of the 84 citations referenced in this episode, listeners can access the transcript via the link provided in the show notes.

Transcript

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science Versus. I'm here with senior producer Rose Rimler. Hello.

[Rose Rimler]

Hi, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

You have a story to tell me.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes. We're going to start off with a bit of a mystery story today. I heard it from Professor Patricia Hunt.

[Patricia Hunt]

So it's like we were on the trail of something we thought was going to be really big, and then we tripped and fell into something that was huge.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Ooh, I'm in.

[Rose Rimler]

It all started back in the late 90s. Pat was running a lab where she was researching egg cells, which. One thing you gotta know about Pat is that she loves egg cells. Loves them. You know how some people are into, like, very niche things?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

To other people, they seem niche. To you, they seem extremely important. So for me, it would be gelatinous marine invertebrates.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes. You do love jellyfish.

[Rose Rimler]

It's the egg cell, the moment it's released, and it's, like, ready to meet a sperm.

[Patricia Hunt]

Well, it's beautiful, for one thing. And it's absolutely fascinating because the more we study it, the more complex we realize the whole process is.

[Rose Rimler]

So to help her understand this complex process, she had mice in her lab. She had healthy mice. But one day she took some of their eggs and looked at them under a microscope, and she saw that something weird was going on with their chromosomes.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hmm.

[Patricia Hunt]

They should just line up like, you know, horses ready to start a horse race. And what we saw was they were splattered all over the place like they were completely disorganized Horses.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

You don't want disorganized horses.

[Rose Rimler]

No.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hanging around in your eggs.

[Rose Rimler]

You don't. And it was especially weird because these mice had had totally normal eggs before.

[Patricia Hunt]

Literally one week we ran the experiment, it was fine. The next week, glamo. Okay, something's going on. This has got to be something that's crept into my animal facility. So we started looking. There was a bunch of construction going on in the hospital. You know, maybe somebody's spraying for insects or something. Maybe somebody switched something.

[Rose Rimler]

She checked the air coming into the animal facility. That was fine. Nobody had changed the food the mice were eating. It was just like this total head scratcher.

[Patricia Hunt]

Yeah. And so I talked to the woman who was running the place a lot about this. She knew what was going on. She knew why we were upset. And one day I walked in and I said, cheryl, you know, what's going on with these cages? They look horrible now. She goes, I know. I don't know.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

The cages.

[Rose Rimler]

The cages the mice were in. They were basically these plastic tubs, kind of like where you might keep your hamster, you know, and they also were drinking out of plastic water bottles. And all of that stuff was looking really weird. The plastic was getting cloudy and starting to crack.

[Patricia Hunt]

Almost like they were melting. Kind of bubbly and kind of really nasty. And, you know, yipes. Then we knew we really had a problem and then we traced it back and figured out what had happened.

[Rose Rimler]

So what had happened was that someone had used the wrong detergent on the plastic and it had started degrading, which meant that there was something leaching out of the plast and getting into the mice's bodies that was messing with their hormones and that was causing their eggs to get all screwed up.

[Patricia Hunt]

And that's when I went, oh, my gosh. You know, we were in uncharted territory back then.

[Rose Rimler]

This was a pretty groundbreaking discovery because hardly anyone was at that time worrying about plastics or the stuff in plastics. They seemed totally safe, like inert.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

But then you fast forward to today, right, where we're talking like 30 years later and oh, my God, every. Everyone is worried about plastics.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. Now we're hearing stuff like we're like Pat's mice.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Exactly.

[Rose Rimler]

And that's what this episode is gonna be about, this idea that we're exposed to all this stuff.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

And specifically tiny plastics called microplastics that are screwing with us, screwing with our hormones, affecting all kinds of stuff about our health, our fertility. There's just so many headlines about this.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Doctors say these plastics are omnipotent and potentially harmful. The tiny plastic partic were found deep.

[Rose Rimler]

In the lungs of some surgical patients.

[Patricia Hunt]

And in the blood of anonymous donors.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And for any blokes watching, you might want to put down that plastic drink bottle.

[Rose Rimler]

Microplastics have now been discovered in human testicles as well. You heard that, right?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes, I remember the testicles. I mean, I don't know what. I guess I just. You know how I love a headline with balls in it.

[Rose Rimler]

He paid close attention and these types of headlines have spurred this cottage industry, or like the cottage advice industry online of how to avoid microplastics and how to be more afraid of everything in your home. So, like, all this stuff that seems totally innocuous, we're told that we should probably give it up. Like plastic toothbrushes, plastic contact lenses, our tea bags. And in particular, there seems to be an all out war against plastic cutting boards. When you cut like this on a plastic cutting board, small pieces of plastic from the cutting board are going to end up in Your food, your plastic.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Cutting board is definitely messing with your hormones.

[Patricia Hunt]

We ingest up to 50 grams of.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Microplastics every year from our cutting boards alone.

[Rose Rimler]

It's like eating two AA batteries worth.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Of plastics every year. Rose, I am very ready for this episode. You just hear all these headlines. It feels like we are part human, part plastic.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I want to know what are these plastics doing in our body? I want to know if it's really that scary. Do I need to throw out my cutting board and half the stuff in my house? How bad is this?

[Rose Rimler]

Wendy, I looked into those questions. We're going to get into it after the break. Yes.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This episode of Science Versus is brought to you by Ford. There are few pickups more iconic than the F150. And the 2024 F150 light truck is no exception. With an EPA estimated range of 320 miles with the available extended range battery, it's the only EV that's an F150. Visit Ford.com to learn more. Excludes Platinum models. EPA Estimated Driving Range based on full charge. Actual driving range varies with conditions such as external environment, vehicle use, vehicle maintenance, high voltage, battery age, and state of health.

[Rose Rimler]

There's no better feeling than a personal win. And the state farm personal price plan can help you do just that. Talk to a state Farm agent today to learn how you can bundle and save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Coverage options are selected by the customer.

[Rose Rimler]

Availability, amount of discounts, and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Welcome back. Today on the show, microplastics Rose. Hey, Wendy, we got a lot of questions about them. Let's jump in.

[Rose Rimler]

Okay. So, Wendy, there are 8 billion tons of plastic on earth today.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Sounds like a lot.

[Rose Rimler]

I mean, that's a lot. We've only been mass producing it since basically the 1950s. So to think like, wow, we've already got 8 billion tons is like, we just love this stuff so much. And we keep making more and more of it.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right. And it doesn't really break down. Right?

[Rose Rimler]

Right. Yeah. I mean, which, like, plastic doesn't decompose, which, like, I think everybody knows, but, you know, intuitively. But it's interesting to think about for a second why that is. Because you think about, you know, a tree or a person dying and then their body rots. The reason that that stuff decomposes is because there are bacteria, fungi and other microorganisms that are around to eat it, essentially turn it into soil yes. For plastics, they're so new to the planet. Like, bacteria hadn't really evolved to do that.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Right.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So it's just. It's just staying around, just persisting or.

[Rose Rimler]

Breaking into smaller and smaller pieces of itself, which are what we call microplastics or nanoplastics, which are really, really small pieces of plastic, even tinier. And these little bits of plastic have been found everywhere in our food, in our bodies, the water that we drink, and even in the air.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So then the question becomes, it doesn't sound great, but what do we know about what are these microplastics actually doing to us?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. So, well, there's a study that just came out, which is kind of a big deal because it's pretty much the only one or the first one to really give us some concrete answers. So scientists in Italy, they recruited 257 people who had to go to the hospital to get a procedure done to clear out some of the plaque in their arteries. And plaque is mostly immune cells that have died. And that stuff can gather in our blood vessels, and that can cause, like, blockages.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah. It looks like thick custard kind of when you look at it. Kind of like snotty custard.

[Rose Rimler]

Ugh.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Anyway, okay, so there's all these patients. What are they doing at the hospital?

[Rose Rimler]

So people were there to get some of it scraped out.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, they got the plaque removed.

[Rose Rimler]

So after they got the plaque scraped out, the scientists took it and looked for microplastics in there, and they reported that they found that more than half of the people in the study had evidence of microplastics in their plaques. Yeah, but that's not all.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

So this is what makes this study special, because the scientists, they follow these people after they had this procedure done for almost three years, actually, and looked to see what happened to them, and it turned out that the people who had the most microplastics in their plaque had the highest chance of having a heart attack, a stroke, or dying in those three years.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, wow. Even though they. They scraped out the plaque, they did the surgery.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And they still were more likely to have heart attacks or stroke.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Do we know how the bits of plastic might cause a heart attack?

[Rose Rimler]

So we don't know for sure that it was. They were causing the heart attack. Right. It's an association, so we can't say it was causal.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Rose Rimler]

But the researchers do think it's plausible that they were. And they point out that, you know, back when they first took the plaque, they also took some of it. And looked at it under a microscope. And what they saw when they did that was what they believed to be little pieces of microplastics inside immune cells. Oh, that, like the immune cells had been going around, like, slurping them up. The microplastics.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I mean, that. That doesn't make sense because the. The whole funct of sub immune cells is to take foreign objects inside your body. Bacteria, viruses.

[Rose Rimler]

Right.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And to gobble them up and get rid of them. And so they're seeing microplastics as a foreign object, which they are, and trying to get rid of them.

[Rose Rimler]

Right. So what might be happening is that the microplastics were triggering people's immune cells to come out. And in other words, like, that's inflammation, essentially. And we know from other studies done in animals and in cells that exposure to microplastics or nanoplastics can really kick up inflammation. So that kind of makes sense.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Mm. Okay. So here's what we know so far. These tiny microplastics that are getting into our body.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

You know, our immune system is trying to get rid of them and maybe does successfully in some cases, but as a result of that process, it can increase inflammation in our body, which can then possibly increase our risk of heart disease.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. Just this heart attack association. This has only been shown in one study. Not even 300 people. You know, time will tell if other studies agree find the same thing.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

But that's kind of what we know right now in terms of the dangers of the little physical pieces of plastic getting into human bodies.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

But the thing you also hear about is the chemicals on the plastic. There's this idea that plastics are ferrying in nasty chemicals into our body. So please tell me we have more research on this.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of chemicals put into plastics to make them behave a certain way, like bendier or shinier or water resistant. And a lot of those chemicals are what's known as endocrine disruptors.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes. Okay, so this is something you see a lot of people worrying about.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This idea that these chemicals on. In plastics are messing with our hormones. Take me through the science. Firstly, what would these. How would they mess with our hormones?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, they're like. They're tricksters. So they bust in and they take over this important role from our actual hormones. So hormones are all about binding to receptors on cells in order to send messages throughout the body. And, you know, they're involved in so much. They do a lot day to day, but also they help these, like, key developmental things happen. Over the course of our whole lives. So if these chemicals are messing with that, that could be pretty bad. So here's what Pat Hunt told me. She's the scientist we heard from at the top of the show.

[Patricia Hunt]

I think of it kind of as radio static. You know, your hormones control everything. Your growth, your metabolism, your sleep, your reproduction, and it's all by these finely tuned signals. And here's the static in the system.

[Rose Rimler]

So these endocrine disruptors are the static. They're interfering with the hormones by binding to the receptors that hormones are supposed to bind to. And that can mess up these signals.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And we know that these chemicals are in our environment. Like, we know for sure they're in my body right now.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, probably. I mean, we know that just about everybody is exposed to them.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, so then how bad is this?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, that's what I want to know.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right? What does it mean?

[Rose Rimler]

So I talked about this with aunt Simone Parand. She's a pediatric endocrinologist and a researcher who's at the University of Liege in Belgium. I mean, if we're all exposed to endocrine disruptors, does that mean we're all a little bit endocrine disrupted? Oh, we are, Yeah, I think we are. That's a fair statement. That's a fair statement. Yes, absolutely. Some people are more sensitive than others.

[Patricia Hunt]

But we are all a little bit disrupted.

[Rose Rimler]

So how do. What do I make. Like, what does that mean for, like, me or for you? Like, if you're a little bit endocrine disrupted? How would you be different if you weren't endocrine disrupted?

[Patricia Hunt]

I would be so much smarter, I'm sure.

[Rose Rimler]

Would I be able to pull off bangs if I wasn't endocrine disrupted? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would keep trying to wear bangs, and it never. It never works.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, but, Rose, what the hell are they doing to us? What are they doing?

[Rose Rimler]

Okay, so they have been linked to a bunch of potential health problems. So the first one I want to tell you about is something I find very intriguing and very interesting. I talked about it with Fred Vamsal. He's a professor emeritus at the University of Missouri. Hi, Fred.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

How you doing, Rose?

[Rose Rimler]

And he is one of many scientists who think the obesity epidemic that we've heard so much about our whole lives might be caused, at least in part, by these chemicals.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow.

[Rose Rimler]

Which sounds totally weird, but the evidence is. The evidence is kind of compelling. So just to put it in perspective, like, plastic production started ramping up in the 50s, 60s.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

In 1962 in the U.S. 13% of American adults were considered obese. These days, it's over 40%. That's a big jump, right? Obesity has tripled in the past 50 years.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes, but I'm not necessarily jumping to blaming plastics for this. I feel like every week on Instagram, you see a new correlation. Look, the number of Marvel movies has also jumped along with the rise in obesity.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, yeah. This is just the beginning. I'm just getting you set up.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

This is not the extent of the evidence. Okay. So, like, to go on. So to many of our listeners, they might think, like, the reason this is happening is just obvious, you know, that obesity is happening more often because people are not moving as much and that they're eating more. But lots of scientific and medical societies have come out and said that it's not that simple and something more mysterious is happening. So, for one thing, animals, too, are getting fatter right alongside people. Scientists have showed that primates and rodents in research labs, like lab animals, they're fatter today than they were decades ago.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Even though they're eating the exact same chow or whatever.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, they should be. And, like, living the same lifestyle.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, that is weird.

[Rose Rimler]

So, yeah, that suggests that there's something going on other than people's behavior changing en masse. It isn't just that people are stuffing themselves and sitting on the couch. Something's going on in the environment doing this.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And so why does Fred suspect these endocrine disrupting chemicals?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, a number of studies have found that fatter people have a higher chemical burden in their bodies than thinner people. So, like, this one big meta analysis of these kinds of studies found that in people who had the most exposure to this stuff, their likelihood of obesity was 50% higher than people with the lowest exposure.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Huh. So they took. They took a bunch of people. Obese, not obese.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Measured.

[Rose Rimler]

Measured these chemicals, and ultimately that's. And then put a bunch of those studies together, and ultimately that's what they found. Which, of course, doesn't prove that these chemicals cause the obesity, because it could.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Be that people are eating more processed food, which is often wrapped in plastic, and maybe it's the food that's causing the obesity and not the plastics around it.

[Rose Rimler]

It's observing observation. Right, that's definitely been argued as a possibility.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

But Fred told me, and this is true, that there's a lot of evidence in the lab that this could be causal. Like, we have a pretty good idea of what the mechanism could be. They've shown that when you put stem cells, which could turn into muscle or bone or fat in a dish and then spike the dish with these kinds of chemicals. What you do is you activate the fat pathway at the expense of muscle and bone. And what does that tell the body to do as it develops? Get fat. So those stem cells in the dish make more fat cells, and the fat cells that they make are bigger.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, wow. Right.

[Rose Rimler]

And we do see that animals exposed to these chemicals while in the womb are still developing are fatter than control animals. And the best evidence is from other endocrine disruptors. But scientists think that the plastic endocrine disruptors are probably doing the same thing.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So what do you make of this, Rose? Do you really think plastic and these endocrine disruptors might be like a big piece in the obesity puzzle?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I think it makes sense that this could be one thing that explains some of what we're seeing.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Daddy, it is wild. It's just wild from the perspective of this. I mean, if it does pan out with further research, it's just this has been. It really has been this huge medical mystery. What is causing this rise in obesity for so long? And if it's the plastics, if that ends up being the culprit. Wow. So what. What's next?

[Rose Rimler]

We're gonna talk about Spermageddon. You know, sperm numbers have been on the decline.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes. Are these chemicals in plastic to blame?

[Rose Rimler]

And we're also gonna break down this idea of whether or not we really eat a credit card's worth of plastic a week.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This episode is brought to you by Ford. I'm here with our editor and electric vehicle owner, Blythe.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes, I'm recording inside my Ford F150 Lightning truck to chat about the Ford Power Promise.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

What's that?

[Rose Rimler]

It is Ford's commitment to getting electric vehicle drivers started with confidence. When you buy or lease one of their electric vehicles, you get a complimentary home charger and standard installation.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow, that's pretty impressive. Which models are included?

[Rose Rimler]

The Ford Mustang Mach E F150 Lightning, and E Transit Cargo Van. You can visit FordPowerpromise.com to learn more.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Must purchase or lease a new Ford F150 Lightning Mustang Mach E or E Transit cargo van vehicle from a participating ford dealer between October 1, 2024 and January 2, 2025, to be eligible to receive a one complimentary Ford charge Station Pro Ford charger model may vary based on availability with complimentary home installation or B2000 bonus cash. No trade in required offer not available to fleet or commercial customers. Complimentary home installation must be performed through Q Merit Electrification LLC at a residential location with a dedicated electrical meter. Restrictions may apply based on structural and electrical limitations. Installation must be completed by June 30, 2025. For all offers. Must take retail delivery from an authorised Ford dealer's stock by January 2, 2025. See your Ford dealer for details and terms.

[Rose Rimler]

This episode is brought to you by United Airlines. When you want to make the most.

[Patricia Hunt]

Of your vacation, book with United.

[Rose Rimler]

They're an airline that cares about your travels as much as you do. United is transforming the flying experience with.

[Patricia Hunt]

Bluetooth connectivity, screens, power at every seat.

[Rose Rimler]

And bigger overhead bins to help fit everyone's bag. And with their app, you can skip.

[Patricia Hunt]

The bag check line, get live updates and more.

[Rose Rimler]

Change the way you fly. Book your next trip [e-mail] I've got.

[Patricia Hunt]

A lot of grandbabies.

[Rose Rimler]

Like, a lot, a lot. And when it comes to finding a gift for each of them, you know, it could add up. But this year, while I was making my way through Walmart, I realized I.

[Patricia Hunt]

Don'T have to spend a lot to get the gifts.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

They'll love an OPI mini mani set. I'm gonna do so much nail art.

[Rose Rimler]

Oh, yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

A Lego set.

[Rose Rimler]

My own Awala water bottle.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Ooh.

[Rose Rimler]

And that's just half of them. Shop great gifts they're sure to love for $25 and under at Walmart. This episode is brought to you by FedEx. FedEx knows running a small business is hard enough without the hassle of shipping. That's why there's FedEx Onerate. With FedEx Onerate, you can ship your holiday packages cheaper than the post office for as low as 1450. For small boxes, visit fedex.comenerate for details. Exclusions apply. Valid through January 19, 2025. FedEx one rate. Two day retail shipping one flat rate.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Welcome back. We've just learned that endocrine disrupting chemicals, including the kinds that are found in our plastics, may be partly to blame for the rise in obesity, which I'm still. My mind is still grappling with this. Reeling, reeling in a way. Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. Well, get ready because there's a couple other very interesting potential effects from these chemicals. So one of the major areas where scientists are looking for the effects potentially of endocrine disrupting chemicals is in stuff that has to do with our reproductive health. This is like a big field, right? And so I looked into that and a couple of things stood out to me as being interesting and having some really intriguing evidence, in particular infertility and early puberty. So Just quickly, let's talk about early puberty. So we know that girls really are starting puberty earlier than they used to. And I asked Aunt Simone about this. She's the scientist I talked to before about how I can't pull off bangs. Well, more importantly, she is a pediatric endocrinologist. You see this in patients that come come to you? I do, I do. And they come to my consultation because they start puberty too early. So a study that came out pretty recently looked at dozens of papers from around the world that included tens of thousands of kids the age at which they started puberty. And they found that in 2013, girls, on average, were starting to grow breasts almost a year earlier than they had in 1977. So the average age for that went from almost 11 to around 10.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow. I just remember when I grew. When I started growing breasts, it was so traumatic for me. I actually taped them. Oh, I couldn't imagine if it had. Actually, I would tape them down with duct tape.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. It can be hard on girls psychologically, but also earlier puberty is associated with an increased risk of breast cancer later in life.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh.

[Rose Rimler]

And so the reason that some scientists blame these chemicals is that we know that a lot of them mimic estrogen. And so that makes a lot of sense that they could screw with puberty.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right, right.

[Rose Rimler]

Estrogen plays a pretty big role in that.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

And then they also. Sometimes, not always, but they have found more of these chemicals in the bodies of girls that start puberty earlier compared with girls that haven't started puberty as early. You know, and there are other explanations out there about what might be happening with puberty, like why we might be.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Saying girls going through puberty earlier, but.

[Rose Rimler]

It doesn't quite cover everything. Like, a lot of people blame obesity in children, and that does make sense, but we've also seen this happening in thin kids, too. So it's not just obesity. And from her work, Ansimone thinks that there's a link here. Yes, it's been related to endocrine disruptors. Same for fertility.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right. So what's happening with fertility?

[Rose Rimler]

Yes. So we definitely have evidence that there's something then going on with fertility. Like, we definitely see that sperm counts are going down. And so some studies have found that people with more plastic chemicals than their pee, just usually how they measure it, they see things like worse sperm quality and having a lower sperm count. And so it's not just sperm when it comes to eggs. We think that there's some potential for these chemicals to be kind of wreaking some havoc. So, for example, you can compare couples.

[Patricia Hunt]

Who had issues having kids, for instance.

[Rose Rimler]

Compared to couples who have normal fertility. And you can show that the ones.

[Patricia Hunt]

Who had fertility problems had more of.

[Rose Rimler]

Some types of endocrine disruptors.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wait, so couples who are finding it harder to conceive. When scientists measure how many of these chemicals, these endocrine disruptors they have in their system, they tend to have more of these chemicals compared to couples who got pregnant easily.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. Some studies have shown that people doing ivf, if they have more of these chemicals in their bodies, they tend to get a lower egg yield and are less likely to get pregnant successfully than people with less of these chemicals.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow.

[Rose Rimler]

So it seems like endocrine disruptors might be messing with some people's eggs, which we've shown in animal studies, too.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, like in Pat's mice.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, that's. You got. You got me that. After exposing. I was going to say, we know that when you expose rats or mice to these chemicals, they often have reproductive issues, like their eggs getting messed up.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Horses. Their horses were all.

[Rose Rimler]

Were all disorganized. Yeah. And they have. And other kinds of issues with their eggs. And so going back to Pat's mice and their disorganized horse chromosomes, she did figure out exactly what it was in the plastic that was causing this issue. Oh, it was bpa. Oh. So you've probably heard of bpa. It's the stuff that people freaked out about being in baby bottles and water bottles a while back.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Of course. Of course.

[Rose Rimler]

And it's also been used in the lining of canned food. And it's another of these chemicals that acts like estrogen in the body. And so there might be listeners that are like, why are you talking about bpa? That is old news, and it's not around anymore.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes, my cans, my can. I ate a lot of chickpeas. The can say no BPA.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, well, I asked Pat about that. BPA's out of our water bottles and all of our baby bottles and our plastics. Right. So problem solved.

[Patricia Hunt]

We're completely safe now. No, we're not completely safe now.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I don't like sarcasm in my scientists. I find it confusing.

[Rose Rimler]

Well, you really want that to be true? Like, yes, problem solved. Hands washed.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

No, the problem is. Well, for one, we're still producing and using lots of BPA in the world, but also, even the products that are BPA free, like your can of chickpeas, it's likely that the manufacturer just, like, put in a very similar, slightly different chemical that's probably has the same effect or very similar effects. It's another endocrine disruptor.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I'm not. That one I'm not surprised about. You know, when you say these my chickpea cats, or you see all these lotions with, like, no BPA that I've. I'm never thinking this product is safer. This is a company that cares about my health. Yeah, of course. They've just slotted in something similar.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. I'm sorry to say I think you were right. I mean, there was a review paper recently. It said BPA replacement compounds exhibit various toxicity effects that are comparable to bpa.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Fabulous. Great. To summarize, the evidence that we have that these chemicals found in plastics can affect our fertility and maybe even be causing early puberty, is that we sometimes find that people who are going through early puberty and those who are having trouble with their sperm or with getting pregnant, they tend to have more of these chemicals in their body versus people who aren't having those issues. Right.

[Rose Rimler]

Some studies have found that. Not every single study that has looked for that has found it.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

The signal isn't always there.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay. Okay. But we find it sometimes. And then we also know from animal studies that there's, like, a mechanism at play. Yeah. We know these chemicals can affect how hormones like estrogen work in our body. And so you put two and two together and it makes sense they could be having some role here.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, that's right. So even though the evidence isn't crystal clear, it's compelling enough that a lot of scientists are pretty nervous about this stuff. And actually, there was a big review put out by the Endocrine Society earlier this year, and they concluded that there is mounting evidence that endocrine disrupting chemicals pose, quote, global health threats. So that's threats, plural. Here's Pat.

[Patricia Hunt]

You know, I think that we need to be very worried. It's not a nice message to send. I mean, a lot of us are very, very concerned about global warming. And you think, okay, well, like, this is less important than global warming. Right. But really, when you think about it, our reproduction, our health, if it's affecting our metabolism and causing obesity and, you know, all of these kinds of things, that's very serious.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I mean, it's funny because on this show, what tends to happen, Rose, is we have some scary headlines at the start of the show.

[Rose Rimler]

Right.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I don't know if you've been listening. And then we say, no, you don't need to worry about this. It's been overblown. But in this case, Rose. This is all very. This is very scary. I am more freaked out about microplastics than I was, you know, before we started chatting. Are you more freaked out about microplastics?

[Rose Rimler]

I'm fairly worried about endocrine disrupting chemicals, which can be in plastics, but I'm less worried about how many of these microplastics are getting into our bodies. And I think that a lot of the headlines we're hearing about how much we're eating are totally overblown. So, yeah, I'm fulfilling your expectation of the show that, like, the headlines are.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Like, tell me why they're overblown. Yeah. Okay, so these are the headlines that are like, you eat a credit card's worth of plastics every day.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, that stuff. I think a lot of that is hype. I think a lot of that is hype and panic for a few reasons.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, walk me through that.

[Rose Rimler]

So, like, okay, the credit card a week. I think a lot of us have heard that. And if you haven't, it's like this idea that went around, like, you're eating so much microplastics are in food that you are eating without knowing it, the equivalent of a credit card of plastic a week.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Rose Rimler]

That did come from an actual study, but that study has been criticized for its methods. And there's a newer study that is a lot more trustworthy and people in the field respected a lot more that came out and did this. A similar estimate. How much microplastics are we eating? And they got a much smaller, Much, much smaller number. And so, like, using their numbers, it would take 23,497 years to get a credit card's worth of microplastics.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow. Okay. All right.

[Rose Rimler]

And then when it comes to our cutting boards.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, the war on plastic cutting boards. Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

I mean, I guess I'm biased. I have a plastic cutting board and I'm like, I don't want to buy a new cutting board. But I'm also like, I think we should all take a minute to be skeptical of this claim of how much plastic might be coming off these cutting boards. So, like, we played some audio from a person on TikTok who claimed that we eat two double A batteries worth of plastic from our cutting boards a year. So she probably got that from this paper, it's a real paper that estimated how many bits of plastic came off a cutting board from chopping stuff, like one or two chopping sessions. And then extrapolated from there. And so the author said, like, at max we might be getting 50 grams of plastics off our cutting boards a year, which could be about two double A batteries like the TikToker said. But like 50 grams of plastic a year from our cutting boards, that is a lot that is noticeable. So like my cutting board, I probably have for five years. If I was whittling off and eating 50 grams of plastic a year, that means the cutting board would be half a pound lighter than when I first bought it. I just feel like I would notice that. Like, just.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I think you would.

[Rose Rimler]

Without like going deep into these authors methodology, like, I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of that. Yes.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes. Okay, good points, Good news all round. We're not eating a credit card worth of plastic a week. And I mean the question is still, do you need to get rid of your plastic cutting board? Or more more broadly, what should we be doing here? Because even though we're still learning so much about these microplastics and the chemicals of them, it seems prudent that you would want to. That less would be better. Having less of them in your system would be better. So yeah, how do we do that? Because obviously I'm not eating plastic in my food, but yet anything.

[Rose Rimler]

You should really remove the Saran Wrap before you bite into the sandwich. I've been meaning to tell you this for years. No, but seriously, studies have found that if you stop using products that are known to contain certain disruptors, the levels of those disruptors in your body will probably go down.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, so. Okay. Yeah. So that's good news.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And I asked a bunch of researchers in this space, like, what they do personally, and they all said that they do try to use less plastic, especially around their food and their personal care products like lotion and shampoo, because stuff can migrate in from the plastic bottle.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

But all lotions and shampoos come in plastic bottles.

[Rose Rimler]

You could get like shampoo bars or this is a couple products to get around this. But essentially what people told me is they just try to keep it to a minimum.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

No one I spoke to has a 10 step skincare routine.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right, that makes sense.

[Rose Rimler]

And they don't put plastic Tupperware in the dishwasher or the microwave because the heat could cause some of those chemicals to pop off and then get in your food.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Mm, mm.

[Rose Rimler]

And then one thing that they told me over and over again, they try to avoid canned food. That's because of the plastic in the cans lining.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, man.

[Rose Rimler]

Oh.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Do you know how many cans of chickpeas I have downstairs right now? Is A box full of canned chickpeas. And you tell me now.

[Rose Rimler]

But here's the thing, like, what am.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I supposed to soak them? I'm supposed to. I'm gonna become a soaker now.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. But like, I don't know. The thing is, like, the thing is with this topic that's so frustrating, I still, even though I've been working on this for a couple months and I've had these conversations with scientists who are like, I don't buy cand canned food is if I can help it. Every time I go to the grocery store, I stock up on my canned beans. I can't quit it. And it's like, I think the problem is, like, without more specific information about how bad is it, what is my risk? I'm not able to weigh the risks of the plastics getting into my canned beans against the benefits of canned beans. I know the benefits. They're cheap, healthy, easy. I like them.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes, yes.

[Rose Rimler]

So for right now, I'm assuming the benefits outweigh the risk for me.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Uh huh.

[Rose Rimler]

I guess I would say, like, if I was pregnant or trying to get pregnant, I would probably be more careful. Not just because of the fertility stuff, but because a lot of our research on this suggests that the most vulnerable time to be exposed to these kinds of chemicals is when you're in utero. I know that's kind of annoying, but like, because, you know, pregnant women are told so many things that they can't do or whatever. But they're gonna hate you, Rose.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

They're gonna hate you.

[Rose Rimler]

I know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's just like, I just think that's where the science is at right now. So that's kind of where I gotta land.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right. Okay. So science versus microplastics, it looks like. I don't know. While some of the claims are overblown, you are not half human, half plastic.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

It is worth your time and energy trying to avoid this stuff.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Without making yourself crazy.

[Rose Rimler]

Right.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This world, Rose, it's exhausting. This world. Exhausting to be alive 100%. Oh my God. Thanks, Rose.

[Rose Rimler]

All right, thanks, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And Rose, how many citations are in this week's episode?

[Rose Rimler]

This week there are 84.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

84 citations. And if people want to see them in all their glory, where should they go?

[Rose Rimler]

They're all in the transcript for the episode, which they can access by clicking on the link in our show notes.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And if people want to let us know what you thought of this episode, what are you going to do to change your plastic consuming habits. If anything, we'd love to hear it. You can find us on Instagram. We're VS and I'm on TikTok. Wendy Zuckerman thanks so much Rose.

[Rose Rimler]

Thanks Wendy. This happened. This episode was produced by me, Rose Rimler with help from Wendy Zuckerman along with Meryl Horn, Eketi Foster, Keys and Michelle Deng. We're edited by Blythe Terrell, fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard mix and sound design by Sam Baer Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka and Peter Leonard. Thanks to all the researchers we spoke with for this episode, including Dr. Mehru Wong, Dr. Roger Kuhlman, Dr. Christian, Christopher Tubbs, Dr. Giuseppe Pauliso, Professor Jerry Heindl, Dr. Laura Gere, Dr. Mohan Chin, Dr. Haoran Way, Dr. Thaddeus Shug, Dr. Thaba Palanisamy, and Dr. Zhang Yu. And special thanks to Mia Foster and Diana Kenney. Science Versus is a Spotify Studios original listen from.