The Carnivore Diet: Can We Live On Meat Alone?

Summary

Summary of "Science Vs" Episode: The Carnivore Diet: Can We Live On Meat Alone?

Release Date: June 12, 2025
Host: Wendy Zuckerman
Producer: Rose Rimler
Podcast: Science Vs by Spotify Studios

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Introduction to the Carnivore Diet

The episode opens with Wendy Zuckerman introducing the topic: the carnivore diet—a regimen consisting exclusively of meat, eggs, and seafood. This diet has garnered attention for its bold claim of promoting optimal health by eliminating all plant-based foods.

Notable Quotes:

• Wendy Zuckerman [00:00]: "Today on the show, the carnivore diet. Fancy eating meat. A lot of meat."

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Proponents' Claims and Personal Experiences

Prominent advocates like Mikayla Peterson, daughter of Jordan Peterson, and her father have publicly endorsed the carnivore diet, attributing significant health improvements to it. They report increased vitality, mental clarity, and alleviation of chronic conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis and anxiety.

Notable Quotes:

• Mikayla Peterson [00:22]: "This is day 312, eating nothing but meat, eggs and seafood."
• Jordan Peterson [01:04]: "Five months after that, the anxiety lifted and I was back in what I felt was heaven compared to how I'd been living."

Additionally, a survey discussed in the episode highlights that many individuals on the carnivore diet report enhanced mood, reduced hunger, weight loss, and overall health improvements.

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Nutritional Deficiencies and Health Risks

Despite anecdotal success stories, experts express concerns about potential nutritional deficiencies inherent to the carnivore diet. Rose Rimler interviews Karen Zinn, a registered dietitian, who points out the absence of essential nutrients typically obtained from plant-based foods, such as vitamin C, folate, and potassium.

Notable Quotes:

• Karen Zinn [06:22]: "Vitamin C, that would be the natural one. Where's the vitamin C? It's not there."
• Wendy Zuckerman [00:26]: "One big influencer here is Mikayla Peterson... she feels more vital..."

Rose highlights these concerns, questioning the long-term viability and safety of an all-meat diet.

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Historical Case Study: Arctic Explorers

The episode delves into a historical study from the late 1920s involving two Arctic explorers, Stefansson and Anderson, who tested the effects of an all-meat diet—a precursor to today's carnivore trend. Initially, the diet led to significant health issues due to low fat intake, a condition known as protein poisoning or rabbit starvation.

Notable Quotes:

• Rose Rimler [08:07]: "Stefansson claimed that he had lived in the Arctic for months eating nothing but meat."
• Karen Zinn [10:08]: "They were healthy. Two healthy individuals who had good vitality."

After adjusting their diets to include more fat, both individuals maintained good health over a year, challenging the notion that an all-meat diet is inherently deficient.

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Heart Disease and Cancer Risks

The discussion transitions to the potential long-term risks of the carnivore diet, particularly concerning heart disease and cancer. While the diet is high in saturated fats and cholesterol—a traditional risk factor for heart disease—current research suggests a more nuanced relationship. Low-carb diets, similar in some respects to the carnivore diet, have shown improvements in insulin sensitivity and diabetes risk, which are linked to heart health.

However, Rose points out that studies indicate individuals on low-carb diets who consume more plant-based foods tend to have better heart health outcomes compared to those who consume predominantly meat.

Notable Quotes:

• Rose Rimler [17:01]: "They say that this diet is really good for your blood sugar, and so you're not going to end up getting diabetes..."
• Wendy Zuckerman [19:28]: "Meat eating is bad for the environment, full stop."

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Benefits for Specific Conditions: Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD)

One of the significant aspects covered is the diet's impact on individuals suffering from inflammatory bowel disease (IBD). Rose interviews Dr. Adrian Sotomota, who has observed remarkable improvements in IBD patients adhering to the carnivore diet. Patients reported reduced inflammation, pain, and other debilitating symptoms, leading some to describe the diet as life-changing or even miraculous.

Notable Quotes:

• Adrian Sotomota [22:22]: "It's among the most, you know, debilitating diseases."
• Rose Rimler [23:03]: "People whose IBD had been stubbornly persistent... called it a miracle."

The proposed mechanism is that by eliminating plant-based toxins and anti-nutrients, the diet reduces gut inflammation. Additionally, entering ketosis—a metabolic state induced by low-carb diets—may contribute to reduced inflammation.

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Environmental Impact

Rose confronts the environmental criticisms of the carnivore diet, debunking claims that it can be sustainable or environmentally friendly. She cites studies indicating that meat and dairy production account for a significant portion of global greenhouse gas emissions, regardless of farming practices like grass-fed or regenerative agriculture.

Notable Quotes:

• Rose Rimler [31:08]: "Grass fed beef. This surprised me. It might actually be worse for emissions than feedlot raised beef."
• Wendy Zuckerman [32:13]: "Meat eating is bad for the environment, full stop."

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Expert Opinions and Conclusion

Experts interviewed in the episode remain skeptical about the carnivore diet's overall safety and efficacy for the general population. While some specific populations with chronic health conditions may experience benefits, the lack of extensive scientific studies and the potential for nutrient deficiencies make it a risky choice for most people.

Rose emphasizes the importance of plant-based foods for long-term health, citing large-scale studies like those involving Seventh Day Adventists, which demonstrate better health outcomes and longevity among vegetarians and vegans compared to meat-eaters.

Notable Quotes:

• Rose Rimler [30:34]: "No, I think it is a very stupid idea."
• Wendy Zuckerman [31:16]: "And environmental issues around eating a lot of meat, right?"

In conclusion, while the carnivore diet may offer short-term benefits for specific health conditions, the consensus among experts is that a balanced diet rich in plant-based foods remains the most evidence-based approach for optimal health and environmental sustainability.

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Key Takeaways

• Anecdotal Benefits: Some individuals and specific patient groups report significant health improvements on the carnivore diet.
• Nutritional Concerns: Potential deficiencies in essential vitamins and minerals, particularly vitamin C, folate, and potassium.
• Historical Insights: Early 20th-century studies show mixed results, with adjustments needed to avoid protein poisoning.
• Heart and Cancer Risks: Long-term risks remain uncertain, with current evidence favoring diets that include a balance of plant-based foods for heart health.
• Environmental Impact: High meat consumption is linked to increased greenhouse gas emissions, challenging claims of environmental sustainability.
• Expert Consensus: A balanced, plant-inclusive diet is recommended for the general population due to its proven health benefits and sustainability.

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For detailed references and further reading, listeners are directed to the episode's show notes, which include a comprehensive list of citations supporting the discussed points.

Transcript

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science verses. This is the show that pits facts against flesh. Today on the show, the carnivore diet. Fancy eating meat. A lot of meat.

[Mikayla Peterson]

This is day 312, eating nothing but meat, eggs and seafood.

[Rose Rimler]

18 ounces of the chuck eye, portion.

[Mikayla Peterson]

Of the chuck, roast beef, chicken, lamb.

[Rose Rimler]

Por burgers and beef tallow.

[Mikayla Peterson]

So good.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Some say this diet is so good because it's travel. Others say it's the best thing they've ever done for their health. They feel more vital, their brain seems to work better, and their chronic illnesses seem to have disappeared. One big influencer here is Mikayla Peterson. She's the daughter of the controversial author Jordan Peterson. And Michaela says that the carnivore diet cured her rheumatoid arthritis. Here she is giving a talk about it.

[Jordan Peterson]

And I cut everything out except for beef. And two weeks after doing that, thinking I'm nuts, hopefully I don't get vitamin deficiencies, the itch went away and my joints started to feel better. Four weeks after that, I stopped crying in the morning. And five months after that, the anxiety lifted and I was back in what I felt was heaven compared to how I'd been living. All beef, all lamb, salt and water.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Her dad went on the diet, too. Here he is telling Joe Rogan about it a couple of months ago.

[Rose Rimler]

I eat steak, and when I deviate from that, things start to fall apart.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Around me pretty quick. This diet is blowing up right now. People cannot get enough, y' all.

[Rose Rimler]

I have never felt better. My energy has been amazing. I have been sleeping so much better than I normally do. I don't get any bloating gas. Like my stomach issues are completely gone.

[Mikayla Peterson]

I was able to lose 90 pounds. My knee pain of over a decade went away. My mental health is the best it's ever been.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

In fact, researchers did a big survey of people who have been on the carnivore diet for at least six months, asking them about their mood, hunger levels, weight, and health. And tons of people reported that they loved this diet and it improved their health. But to a lot of us listening to this right now, the carnivore diet feels plain wrong. There's the environment to think about. Plus, we've been told our whole lives that eating vegetables is good. And eating loads of meat puts us on a fast track to crappy health stuff like heart disease and cancer. The carnivore diet is going to kill you. What is so terrible about this diet is the insanely high amount of saturated fats people are consuming. Do not embark on the carnivore diet unless you would like to get scurvy. Scurvy. So who's right here? Can a carnivore diet really make you mean and lean? Or is this diet a big mistake? Because when it comes to the carnivore diet, it makes a lot of people feel primal. But then there's science. Science versus the carnivore diet is covered up just after the break.

[Rose Rimler]

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[Meghan Trainor]

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[Wendy Zuckerman]

Welcome back. Today on the show, meat, meat, meat, meat. I'm here with senior producer Meathead Rose Rimler.

[Rose Rimler]

Hi, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So on this diet, people just eat meat, right? You can't eat any vegetables.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. Some people eat eggs and dairy, too, but definitely no vegetables. Certainly no carbs or bread or anything. But also like no broccoli, no spinach, no oranges.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah. And. Cause when it comes to this diet, I have seen people proudly taking photos of a plate of food that's like two steaks, two eggs, a sausage on the side.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And then just for garnish, three blueberries. And they're like, carnivore diet. And all the comments will say, get that blueberry off your plate. Blueberries. No.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. No, if you're. I guess if you're a true carnivore, you're not eating any blueberries. According to the diehards, for some reason, they always showcase their food on cutting boards. Have you noticed that?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

It's like a cutting board because that's how T. Rex ate.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Ate her food. Right?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. I mean, your instinct would be this would wreak havoc on your body. Right. Because it seems like you'd be missing out some very important vitamins, minerals, stuff like fiber. If you get rid of all that from your diet, my question is, like, will you be okay? You know, just Basically. Are these people okay? That's my question.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Are these people okay? Yes, yes.

[Rose Rimler]

Well, I talked to Karen Zinn about that. She's a professor at Auckland University of Technology in New Zealand and I'm also a registered dietitian.

[Karen Zinn]

So nutrition is my game, if you like.

[Rose Rimler]

Karen, like us, has been hearing more and more about people going on the carnivore diet. And she wanted to know, if you go full meat, what are you potentially missing? So she and some colleagues analyzed the nutritional value of an all meat diet. Was there any glaring deficiency that could pop up?

[Karen Zinn]

Well, yes, vitamin C, that would be the natural one. Where's the vitamin C? It's not there.

[Rose Rimler]

We need vitamin C to make collagen. And so without it, your skin and mucous membranes and blood vessels start to break down.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That's why your gums can bleed. That's all I know about scurvy.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, so we're talking about scurvy here, right? And your gums can bleed and it can get really serious. People can die. And that wasn't the only nutritional deficiency that Karen was worried about. Like some other nutrients might be kind of low in this diet.

[Karen Zinn]

Folate, potassium. We're these things, folate you get from green leafy vegetables. Fruit and veg give you lots of potassium. So you ordinarily go, well, those things potentially do jump out.

[Rose Rimler]

We need folate to make red blood cells and to keep our brains running smoothly. And we need potassium and other electrolytes for all our cells to make them, you know, just work. So not having enough of those things is a big deal.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Rose Rimler]

But this idea that you will not get them and will be deficient in these things on the carnivore diet, like from what we've just talked about, that's all theoretical. Just like written down on paper, it feels pretty non.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Theoretical. I'll say.

[Rose Rimler]

Well, I mean. Well, here's why I say it's theoretical. We don't have many studies on the carnivore diet. It's pretty new, it's very specific. It's not like the Atkins diet or the Paleo diet where you're restricted, but you're not that restricted. Like you can still eat lots of fruits and vegetables. So I kind of had to go digging and I did find this amazing study that I am delighted to tell you about.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

It's a study of two Arctic explorers. Their names were Stefansson and Anderson. Stefansson claimed that he had lived in the Arctic for months eating nothing but meat. And he said that it had gone just fine. Back then, people were as skeptical as today about this. And they were saying, like, you can't do that. You're gonna have some kind of nutritional deficit or something terrible will happen to you. And so he and this other guy, they offered to be guinea pigs. So in the late 1920s, while they were in New York City, they started eating an all meat diet. It was a lot like what you see people on TikTok showing us that.

[Karen Zinn]

They'Re eating just literally just meat, fish, chicken. And I think was it one of them didn't eat eggs either for the year. So it's literally literally just meat.

[Rose Rimler]

And at first it didn't actually go so well. And that was because the researchers wanted to know what would happen if these guys ate only very lean meat, so very little fat. And one of them, Stevenson, he agreed to do that. And when he ate that diet, he.

[Karen Zinn]

Developed a lot of diarrhea.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I was reading about this. He felt awful.

[Karen Zinn]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Mm. Interesting. What was going on?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, it's interesting cause Stefanson actually knew in advance. He was pretty sure this was gonna happen to him. He told the researchers about it, but he was like, all right, I'll try it anyway. Because he knew about something that's sometimes called rabbit starvation. It's also called protein poisoning. And that's basically when your diet is made up primarily of lean meat like rabbit, you can actually get really sick. And we think that's because when someone is eating mostly protein, their body may not be able to convert that much protein into urine fast enough. So you get ammonia built up in your body, which is toxic. So, yeah. So after a few days of this, the researchers eased up on Stefanson.

[Karen Zinn]

So what they did was they added fat to the meat. So they changed the type of the meat and they added more fat to it. He came right within a few days.

[Rose Rimler]

So adding more fat to the diet brought down the protein, you know, just because the percentage of protein got lower, because the percentage of something else got higher. And so he got a lot better. And then in the end, both of these guys stayed on the diet for a full year.

[Karen Zinn]

If these guys were going to get scurvy, they would have got it. I mean, they had 12 months of, of doing this. They would would have got neurolog from not having the folate. They would have got all sorts of deficiency states, rickets that you get from not having some of these nutrients.

[Rose Rimler]

But at the end of the year.

[Karen Zinn]

Everything was just normal. There was nothing there that was a little bit untoward. For all intents, they were healthy. Two healthy individuals who had good vitality. All their organs, all their systems, all their everything was in good working order and, you know, totally good as gold.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And no. Yeah. So no deficiencies? No vitamin deficiencies?

[Rose Rimler]

Not as far as anyone could tell. Which is interesting.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Mm, it is interesting. So why not?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, for scurvy. So one hypothesis is that if you eat a lot of meat, you get a lot of this nutrient called carnitine. And maybe carnitine does some of the same stuff in our bodies that vitamin C does. And so that would mean we would need less vitamin C. That's a hypothesis. It has not been tested as far as I can tell. And we also know that fresh meat actually does have a bit of vitamin C in it. In fact, studies have found that some of the traditional meat foods that are eaten up north by people native to that region, like whale skin, they're surprisingly good sources of vitamin C. But most.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

People on the carnivore diet, I mean, including this Stefanson and Anderson, right, they weren't eating whale skin, were they?

[Rose Rimler]

No. They were probably eating organ meats though, like liver, which does have a little vitamin C in it and it has other micronutrients like folate. But another explanation for why these people were okay is that maybe if you don't eat any carbs at all, your body can adjust in these really interesting ways.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Like how so?

[Rose Rimler]

For example, with folate, even if you are carnivore dieter who's like, ew, I don't want to eat liver. What we have seen is that people on really low carb diets, their gut bugs start pumping out more folate. So in some ways the body can kind of adjust in certain circumstances.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, that's cool. So you think people on the carnivore diet, maybe they won't get these deficiencies?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, I mean, I realize the evidence I presented is maybe not the most convincing. It's a hundred year old study of two people. It does tell us something. Another thing to consider is that we know for thousands of years there have been people living in high latitude places where not much grows, eating an animal based diet without glaring deficiencies.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Uh huh.

[Rose Rimler]

On the other hand, people eating these traditional diets would also have eaten non meat stuff when they could. They would eat berries, other plants. They would eat kelp.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right. No one was on them on Instagram for eating some berries?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I think so. I think if everyone who went on the carnivore diet got scurvy, it would not be getting more and more popular. We wouldn't be hearing about it as much. So I think it's possible to live on a meat only diet with and avoid glaring deficiencies. But Karen says, like, look, we don't really know what's going on here. If you want to do this, please take a multivitamin.

[Karen Zinn]

I really don't want to say, well, let's see if you manifest a deficiency and then we can patch it up with some, you know, vitamin C. You.

[Rose Rimler]

Don'T want to be like, well, if your gums start to bleed in a few weeks, come back.

[Karen Zinn]

Give me a call if you're gu. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Rose Rimler]

The other thing that seems obviously missing here is fiber. And you'd expect people eating no fiber would be constipated. But Stefanson and Anderson said that their bowel movements were fine. In fact, the scientists actually collected their stool and said not only were they fine, they were great.

[Karen Zinn]

It was like, it had no odor.

[Rose Rimler]

And it's kind of funny because, like, there's that expression like, oh, he thinks his don't stink. And like, wow, really don't stink.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Totally.

[Rose Rimler]

The paper does say that their poops were actually smaller than average. Which does make sense. If there's no fiber to bulk it up.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes, that's right. You start veering towards the little kangaroo poos. But it's not just about poo, because fiber is very important for a bunch of other things. It can lower your risk of heart disease, lower your risk of colorectal cancer. I mean, what?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, that. This all brings me to my next question, which is, okay, maybe these people are okay, surprisingly okay in the short term, a year, whatever. Yeah, but what about long term? What are the long term risks?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

So let's start with heart disease.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, Right.

[Rose Rimler]

I think this is like a really visceral fear people have of this kind of diet of eating so much meat. Because when you're eating a lot of meat, you're probably eating a lot of saturated fat and cholesterol. And a lot of us just have this like, bleh feeling about that. Like, ooh, so much grease building up in your body. I think that's why this particular case report went viral recently. Man on a carnivore diet starts oozing.

[Adrian Sotomota]

Cholesterol from his skin.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Can we please just talk about how unhinged it is that people on the carnivore diet are eating so much fat and cholesterol that it is leading to a visible buildup of fatty deposits under the skin?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. This guy had been on the carnivore diet for Eight months. He showed up to the doctor because he noticed something interesting. I'll show you some pictures. Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Was he turning yellow like an egg yolk? Cause an egg yolk's full of cholesterol, right?

[Rose Rimler]

Pretty much, yeah. Scroll down at the pictures of his hands.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh. Oh, yeah. It's like if you imagine the sort of creases on your palm, and all those creases are basically the color of an egg yolk. Ooh.

[Rose Rimler]

It wasn't actually oozing out of his skin. It was just built up under it.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, that's fine then.

[Rose Rimler]

Well, this got reported as, like, look at what the carnivore diet will do to you. But I think that's unfair. In addition to the not oozing, it was also probably a genetic condition this guy had where his body couldn't clear out cholesterol very efficiently. So this is kind of. We expect this to be rare. This is not going to happen to most people on the carnivore diet.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay. So, all right, well, that's good news. But will they eventually get heart disease? Right.

[Rose Rimler]

That's a more reasonable thing to worry about. And the reason that the idea is out there is because a lot of us have heard that when you eat a lot of saturated fat, cholesterol, it'll clog your arteries, and that will kill you. Now, these days, we know that that old story is not quite true. It's actually a lot more nuanced than that. But some people on the carnivore diet will take this a step further, and they'll say not only will it not increase your risk of heart disease, but it should actually protect you from getting heart disease.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, how? How?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, they say that this diet is really good for your blood sugar, and so you're not going to end up getting diabetes, type 2 diabetes, and therefore you're not going to get heart disease, which comes with type 2 diabetes.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Is that true? Does the carnivore diet protect you from diabetes and getting heart attacks?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, okay, it's true that diabetes increases your risk of heart disease. It actually doubles that risk, according to the cdc. But as far as does the carnivore diet have a protective effect on your diabetes risk? The thinking here comes from the fact that this is a low carb diet, Right? I mean, it's actually a zero carb diet. So as I mentioned, we don't have much in terms of studies on the carnivore diet specifically, but we can look at studies of other low carb diets to get some clues here. And those studies do find that cutting out carbs can improve people's insulin sensitivity and have even been shown to reverse diabetes in people who already have it.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Mmm, that's cool. But that's just part of what this diet is about, right? You cut out the carbs, but what about eating all that meat? I mean, what happens to your heart disease risk when you eat all that meat?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, that's the thing. When researchers have compared people on a low carb diet who eat a lot of meat versus people on a low carb diet who eat a lot of plants, guess who does better?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Plant eaters.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, the plant eaters. They do better. So that led a group of heart health nerds who looked at that study and they put a lot of other evidence together. They concluded that it's okay for people to follow low carb diets for their hearts, but if they do, their doctors should encourage the consumption of vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds, legumes, and whole grains.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Verb Odin verboten.

[Rose Rimler]

Do you know how much they're gonna.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

On you on that carnivore diet subreddit? If you start increasing your consumption of vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds, legum and hold.

[Rose Rimler]

Grains, maybe they'll ease off. I have some good news here for the carnivores. It's about cancer. So when I looked at the link between red meat and cancer, that's squishier than I expected it to be. The best evidence that meat is linked to cancer is for processed meats. To these influencers credit, they seem to be promoting eating freshly prepared meat, and that is probably less risky when it comes to cancer.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, so here's where we're at. These risks that people are concerned about. With the diet around vitamin deficiency and heart disease and cancer, it's not as if these risks are total garbage and this diet is 100% safe. There still could be risks here. We're just not entirely sure. Which means that the benefits. It's all about how good the benefits are.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, to outweigh these unknowns.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Exactly. So after the break, the benefits.

[Susan Ettlinger]

The PC gave us computing power at home, the Internet connected us, and mobile let us do it pretty much anywhere. Now, generative AI lets us communicate with technology in our own language, using our own senses. But figuring it all out when you're living through it is a totally different story. Welcome to Leading the Shift, a new podcast for Microsoft Azure. I'm your host, Susan Ettlinger. In each episode, leaders will share what they're learning to help you navigate all this change with confidence. Please join us Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Welcome back. Rose Rim Light. People say they feel amazing on this diet. Tell me about it. I want to hear the good stuff.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I want to start with people who say this diet has healed their guts, because some people who decide to do this diet are doing it because they're in really bad shape, like, in terms of their GI stuff. I talked about this with Adrian Sotomota. He is a doctor and a researcher at Technologico de Monterrey in Mexico City. He sees a lot of patients with inflammatory bowel disease, and that is a group of conditions that includes Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis. And it's just. It's just awful.

[Adrian Sotomota]

It's among the most, you know, disapacitating diseases. Makes everything harder. It makes going to work harder, makes, of course, eating harder. Even mild forms of IBD are still.

[Rose Rimler]

You know, really suck.

[Adrian Sotomota]

No joke, not a walk in the park.

[Rose Rimler]

People's guts are inflamed in this. These conditions, or they get ulcers on their intestinal walls, and it can cause a lot of pain, cramping, bloating, diarrhea. Adrian's heard about people who get diarrhea 12 times a day, often with blood in it. And sometimes people get anemic and they need blood transfusions.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, gosh.

[Rose Rimler]

I know. And while there are medicines for it, they don't always work for everybody. Adrian says IBD is stubbornly resistant. But then Adrian started hearing about people going on the carnivore diet for their ibd.

[Adrian Sotomota]

The first thing I felt was curiosity. The second thing I thought was, I mean, of course, big work.

[Rose Rimler]

So he and a colleague started collecting stories from these people, and they ended up with 10 case reports from people whose IBD had been stubbornly persistent.

[Adrian Sotomota]

And many of them used civil use, the term life changing, which is something people don't throw away, you know, easily.

[Rose Rimler]

Besides life changing, another patient called it a miracle.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Miracle. Wow. So how. How is this diet helping them?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, one explanation that I heard again and again online about why this diet might be so good for you is basically because plants are toxic. Plants are loaded with things that are.

[Karen Zinn]

Designed to hurt us.

[Rose Rimler]

Plants do not want to be eaten. They're going to defend their leaves, their stems, their roots, and their seeds.

[Adrian Sotomota]

Lectins, phytic acid, oxalates.

[Susan Ettlinger]

When you put that oxalate, those vegetables into your body, your body then recognizes it as something that needs to fight against.

[Rose Rimler]

The thinking here is that plants make chemicals to defend themselves against diseases or getting eaten. By bugs. They'll use stuff like tannins, oxalates, et cetera, and that those chemicals are bad for us. And frankly, Wendy, this is the most irritating part of the whole carnivore diet spiel that I see online, because I think it irritates me because it's like plants are being framed for a crime that they didn't commit.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, so that. So what is. What's happening here?

[Rose Rimler]

I mean, as always, these influencers are taking little grains of truth and blowing them up. So, like, yes, there is some stuff that can be toxic in plant foods, including some stuff that some might call anti nutrients in plants that they can interfere with us absorbing certain nutrients. But most of these things either break down when they're cooked, or they're there in very small doses, or they just don't matter that much as long as we're eating a generally healthy, varied diet.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That.

[Rose Rimler]

I mean, that makes sense, right?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Like spinach, carrots. Then they're not toxic. They're not toxic, right?

[Rose Rimler]

No, they're not toxic. Yeah. I mean, to throw the carnivores a bone, maybe some people are uniquely sensitive to these chemicals. And like, going back to our IBD people we just heard about, maybe their guts were really reactive to stuff that's in plant foods, but that doesn't mean that everybody should throw out our vegetables.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

And like, call them the enemy, because, I mean, I also found a case series where people with IBD switched to a vegan diet. Literally the opposite. All plants and their IBD cleared up, too.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, okay. Despite all the tannins and oxalates and less. Less that they were eating. Right. What's. What's the thinking here? That these bowel conditions are caused by an array of different things potentially. And if. If you personally, maybe you are a little sensitive to some of the stuff in vegetables, and then cutting them out of your diet actually might help. But on the other hand, you might be someone who's sensitive to the stuff in meat, and then a vegan diet is gonna help you out. Is that the idea? So there's no miracle IBD diet?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, there's probably no one IBD diet to heal them all. Although the typical western diet full of ultra processed foods is best avoided. But beyond that, we really don't know. Actually, one review paper I found said that it basically comes down to, if it hurts, don't eat it.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay. All right. But I guess if you are really suffering and have tried a bunch of things, heck, maybe give it a go. I guess with the risks that we talked about at the beginning of the show if I.

[Rose Rimler]

If I was blood every day. Yes. I would try this if. And everything else hadn't worked. Sure.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

All right. So from not blood to other benefits.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. People talk about stuff like the carnivore diet, curing arthritis, psoriasis, a lot of autoimmune stuff actually. And people will also say it helps them with brain fog. And that could also be an autoimmune issue.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Uh huh.

[Rose Rimler]

And maybe, like I said, some people are uniquely sensitive to something in various plants and this diet functions basically as an elimination diet for these issues. But there may be another explanation. The carnivore diet is also a ketogenic diet. You know, on a ketogenic diet you might have a steak and a side of broccoli. On this diet you're just having the steak. Either way, you're going to wind up in ketosis.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Which is where your brain and your body starts using this chemical called ketones for energy rather than using sugars, which is what it mostly runs on.

[Rose Rimler]

And there is some evidence that for some people going into ketosis tamps down their inflammation. It might have to do with one of the ketones that your body makes, bhb. It's thought to be an anti inflammatory agent. So I don't think there's anything special about the bucket loads of meat. For people who are seeing a benefit with this diet. I think it could be that they're just in ketosis, which for some people they feel really good in ketosis.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right. And so that's very helpful news that if you are going all the way on the carnivore diet, you can have some vegetables and probably still stay in ketosis.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. Experts told me that if ketosis is the thing that's making you feel good, you don't have to go on such a restrictive diet to get there. Bottom line, you don't have to be.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This hardcore the whole hog.

[Rose Rimler]

Right. You don't have to go whole hog. Also, Wendy, a lot of people lose weight on this diet and that could be why they feel better. Because, you know, weight loss can sometimes help with chronic diseases.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That makes sense. And then as far as why you might lose weight on this diet, you know what, let me guess, Rose. If you are restricting what you eat in such an extreme way that not only are you not eating muffins and cakes, but you've cut so many things out of your diet, chances are you will lose weight because you're eating less calories. Is that right?

[Rose Rimler]

That's what I would expect. That's what experts told me. There's no studies of weight loss on people on the carnivore diet. We could look at studies of people on the keto diet if we want. That's probably the closest we can get. And there's a meta analysis that found that on the keto diet, people lost on average about 11 pounds over at least a year. But yeah, Wendy, I think it's as simple as that.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So we've talked about people with specific conditions giving this a go. But I guess for the rest of us who are just trying to live our best, healthiest lives, do you think the carnivore diet is a good idea?

[Rose Rimler]

No, I think it is a very stupid idea.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

That's because studies have shown over and over again, thousands and thousands of people, that eating plants is good for you. My favorite of these studies is the Seventh Day Adventist studies. They followed people who were either vegan or vegetarian, or vegetarian, except they ate a little fish or they were meat eaters. And it turned out that everyone who avoided meat, even if they ate a little fish or a little dairy, they had better health and they lived longer than the meat eaters. So the more veg the better, essentially.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah. And those studies are huge, right?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. This one, this one in particular was like 70,000 people.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And compare that to two Arctic explorers who just didn't get scurvy, you know?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

All right. Not to mention the environmental issues around eating a lot of meat, right?

[Rose Rimler]

Yes. And some people in this space, they argue against this. They say eating meat isn't actually that bad for the environment. That's a myth. Or they'll say, like, it's okay as long as you eat grass fed meat or you get meat that's farmed via regenerative agriculture. We looked into this and you know, Wendy, I just want to pull something out of the science versus storage closet that we haven't used in a while. It's a little dusty. Hopefully it still works. No, that's not true. Meat eating is bad for the environment, full stop. Meat and dairy account for at least 12% of the world's greenhouse gas emissions.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow.

[Rose Rimler]

Grass fed beef. This surprised me. It might actually be worse for emissions than feedlot raised beef. And that's basically because grass is a less efficient feed. And then when it comes to regenerative agriculture, it's not anywhere near ready to offset the emissions caused by feeding and raising livestock.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

All right, there you go. The risks to the environment are known. And for that alone, for me anyway, you got that sound effect again. I'm gonna give the Carnivore diet a thanks, Rose.

[Rose Rimler]

Thanks, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

How many citations are in this week's episode?

[Rose Rimler]

This week there are 100 citations.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And if people want to see these citations, read more about meat, meat, meat, meat. Where should they go?

[Rose Rimler]

They can check the link to the transcript and they'll find that in our show notes.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Excellent. All right, I'm hungry.

[Karen Zinn]

Let's eat. Rose.

[Rose Rimler]

Bye. Okay, bye.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This episode was produced by Rose Rimler with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman, Aketti Foster, Keys, Michelle Dang and Meryl Horne. We're edited by Blythe Terrell, Fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard mix and sound design by Bobby Lord. Music written by Emma Munger so Wiley, Peter Leonard, Bhumi Hidaka and Bobby Lord. A special thanks to the researchers we reached out to, including Dr. Lawrence David, Dr. Andrea Korachik and others. Science Versus is a Spotify Studios original. Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And wherever you do listen to us, give us a five star review. If you like what we're doing, it helps others find the show. But if you are listening on Spotify then to follow us, tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come out. I am Wendy Zuckerman and I'll fact you next time.

[Rose Rimler]

Sam.