The Pill: Is It Messing Up Our Brain and Body?

Summary

Science Vs: The Pill – Is It Messing Up Our Brain and Body?

Released on November 21, 2024, by Spotify Studios

Introduction

In this episode of Science Vs, hosts Wendy Zuckerman and Rose Rimler delve into the contentious topic of hormonal birth control pills. From their revolutionary impact in the 1960s to the modern-day debates surrounding their safety and side effects, the episode meticulously examines whether the pill is indeed altering our brains and bodies in detrimental ways.

The Pill's Historical Impact

Wendy opens the discussion by highlighting the pill's pivotal role in women's liberation during the 1960s. Citing Loretta Lynn's song, she notes how the pill empowered women to control their reproductive choices, leading to significant societal shifts: increased college attendance among women, more women entering professional fields, and a 30% reduction in the gender wage gap. "Since the pill came out, women are more likely to go to college, become lawyers, judges, and doctors," Wendy states [00:01].

Modern-Day Concerns and Claims

Fast forward to the present, and the pill faces criticism for its potential side effects. Rose Rimler brings up alarming statements about the pill altering personalities and romantic preferences. "Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your bodies and that it can even change parts of our personality, like who you're attracted to and also who is attracted to you," Rose asserts [01:30].

Mate Choice and Evolutionary Psychology

The hosts explore the theory that hormonal birth control might influence women's mate preferences. The idea is that women naturally gravitate towards more masculine partners during their fertile phases. Rose discusses studies suggesting that women on the pill might not experience this shift, potentially affecting long-term relationships and even increasing divorce rates. "People who use hormonal birth control had 50% higher odds of getting divorced," Rose mentions [10:07].

However, Julia Stern, a psychologist, challenges these findings by pointing out methodological flaws. Many studies estimated ovulation based on cycle dates without hormone verification, leading to unreliable results. "These studies were trying to figure out if women had a different preference when they were ovulating, but they didn't actually double check the women were actually ovulating," Rose explains [11:34].

Body Odor and Ovulation

Another claim examined is the notion that ovulating women emit distinct body odors that signal fertility to men. Rose references a study by Madita Setcha from the University of Leipzig, which found no significant changes in armpit odor across menstrual cycles. "Ovulation is not a thing... So based on this idea that people blame the pill for covertly changing how you smell over your menstrual cycle... the pill doesn't change your scent and therefore wouldn't make men more or less attracted to you because of that," Rose concludes [17:58].

Mental Health Implications

The conversation shifts to the pill's impact on mental health. Studies indicate a slight increase in depression rates among pill users, with 4-10% developing depressive symptoms during clinical trials. However, the exact mechanisms remain unclear. Caitlin Taylor, a neuroscientist, emphasizes that brain changes observed in pill users aren't inherently negative. "We know there's tons of receptors for these hormones in the brain that they interact with neurotransmitters like serotonin," Wendy notes [24:26].

Weight Gain Myths Debunked

Addressing the common fear of weight gain, Rose presents research involving monkeys that showed an increase in metabolism and subsequent weight loss when administered the pill. Human studies corroborate these findings, indicating no significant weight changes attributable to hormonal birth control. "Another pill myth busted. The pill does not cause weight gain," Rose states [30:22].

Fertility Awareness Methods

The episode also explores alternative contraceptive methods, particularly fertility awareness. While touted by some as a natural and effective option, the hosts caution about its reliability. Rose explains that methods like tracking cervical mucus and basal body temperature can achieve up to 99.6% effectiveness when used perfectly, but they require meticulous daily monitoring. "Fertility awareness methods, they are an option and they're not a bad option. But be aware that just like condoms, they can have holes in them," Wendy advises [34:49].

The Pull-Out Method and Pre Ejaculate

Finally, the discussion addresses the age-old question: Can you get pregnant from pre cum? Rose cites a recent study by Jasmine Patel, which found that while the majority of pre-ejaculate samples contained no sperm, approximately 21% had sperm counts high enough to cause pregnancy. "Ultimately, out of 24 people in Jasmine's study, five sometimes had enough sperm in their pre cum to get someone pregnant," Rose reveals [40:25].

Conclusion

Wendy and Rose conclude that while the pill is not without its risks, many of the alarming claims lack robust scientific backing. They emphasize the importance of informed decision-making based on reliable research rather than sensationalist portrayals. "The pill is not totally innocent. So let's look at some of the stuff that does seem to happen," Rose acknowledges [20:12]. However, they advocate for balanced discussions and responsible communication about reproductive health.

Notable Quotes

• Rose Rimler [01:30]: "Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your bodies and that it can even change parts of our personality, like who you're attracted to and also who is attracted to you."
• Rose Rimler [10:07]: "People who use hormonal birth control had 50% higher odds of getting divorced."
• Rose Rimler [17:58]: "Ovulation is not a thing... the pill doesn't change your scent and therefore wouldn't make men more or less attracted to you because of that."
• Rose Rimler [30:22]: "Another pill myth busted. The pill does not cause weight gain."
• Rose Rimler [40:25]: "Ultimately, out of 24 people in Jasmine's study, five sometimes had enough sperm in their pre cum to get someone pregnant."

Further Information

For listeners seeking more detailed insights, the episode includes 75 citations available in the transcript and show notes. Engage with Science Vs on Instagram (@science_vs) and TikTok (@WendyZuckerman) for additional content and discussions.

Credits

Produced by Rose Rimler and Wendy Zuckerman, with contributions from Michelle Dang, Akedi Foster Keys, Meryl Horne, and others. Special thanks to researchers like Dr. Adrian Beltz and Professor Alison Edelman for their expertise.

Listen to the Episode

Tune in to Science Vs on Spotify or your preferred podcast platform to explore the full conversation and uncover the science behind hormonal birth control.

Transcript

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science versus. This is the show that pits facts against fallopian tubes. Today, we are tackling the pill. The pill burst onto the scene in the 1960s, and for tons of folks, it was seen as this wonderful thing. Country singer Loretta Lynn even wrote a song about how the pill was going to open up all of these possibilities for women. But all I've seen of this old world is a bed and a doctor Bill, I'm tearing down your bruder house cause now I've got the pill this song was a hit. And the freedom that she's singing about about choosing when to get pregnant and how many babies you're gonna have, it just resonated with loads of women. In fact, since the pill came out, women are more likely to go to college, become lawyers, judges, and doctors. Plus, the wage g between men and women has narrowed by 30%. And some economists say that this is a direct result of the pill. But you fast forward to today, and for many, the pill has gone from hero to zero. People say that pumping ourselves with these hormones can be harmful.

[Rose Rimler]

Birth control is one of the most damaging things you can put in your.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Bodies and that it can even change parts of our personality, like who you're attracted to and also who is attracted to you.

[Rose Rimler]

Birth control can actually affect a woman's taste in men.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

We actually choose mates that are less compatible when we're on hormonal birth control.

[Rose Rimler]

Is birth control ruining relationships and people don't even realize it?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

We're hearing the pill can tank your mental health.

[Rose Rimler]

I was the most depressed I've ever been. I didn't feel like me. I had no energy. Every morning I wake up, and I.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Just, like, struggle to get out of bed.

[Rose Rimler]

And I couldn't get myself to not be mad. I was, like, not even in control of my own emotions.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

You know, folks are even worried that the pill will mess with your brain. We're talking significant structural changes in the brain in regions involving memory and emotional processing. And these ideas are huge right now. Even Elon Musk is worried about this.

[Rose Rimler]

I think hormonal birth control is making. It's making a lot of women sad and depressed. Yes. And they don't realize it.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Here he is talking to feminist icon Tucker Carlson in a video that's been watched millions of times, saying that women just don't understand how dangerous the pill is.

[Rose Rimler]

Significant risk of depression, significant increase in suicide, and will make you want to go out with people that you don't actually like. That's actually true, by the way.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And with all these concerns, some people are saying bye bye to the pill for good.

[Rose Rimler]

It's time for me to come off the pill.

[Julia Stern]

A lot of my friends have gotten off of it.

[Rose Rimler]

My sister's gotten off of it. I really don't know many people on it anymore. Now that I'm off it, literally it is like night and day difference. Best decision I've ever made in my life.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Today on the show, could the pill be changing us in these weird and even dangerous ways? And if you don't want to get knocked up, should you switch to something better? There's a lot of buzz about this exciting hormone free natural method that's out there. We're also going to get to the bottom of a question that we at Science Versus have had for half a decade, which is can you really get pregnant from pre cum? When it comes to the pill, there's at least one billionaire saying it all.

[Rose Rimler]

Make you want to go out with people that you don't actually like.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

But then there's science. Science Versus the Pill is coming up just after the break. This episode of Science Versus is brought to you by Ford. There are few pickups more iconic than the F150, and the 2024 F150 Lightning truck is no exception. With an EPA estimated range of 320 miles with the available extended range battery, it's the only EV that's an F150. Visit Ford.com to learn more. Excludes Platinum models. EPA Estimated Driving Range based on full charge. Actual driving range varies with conditions such as external environment, vehicle use, vehicle maintenance, high voltage battery age and state of health.

[Rose Rimler]

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[Wendy Zuckerman]

Welcome back. Today we're here to talk about the pill and we are going to do it with a real pill. Senior producer Rose Rimmler.

[Rose Rimler]

Hi, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hello. What made you want to do this episode?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, I've just been seeing a lot of stuff online about how the pill isn't as safe as we thought it was and how it might be changing us. And those are very interesting claims to dig into and they're also very relevant right now with all this uncertainty about access to Contraception and abortion in the US and, you know, that's not the only reason people take the pill, but it still just seems like a really good time to dive into this.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, for sure. I do think for a long time, there's just been this assumption that women are gonna go on the pill. You'll go on the pill. Right. And so I think really questioning what is it doing to us, I think is really important.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, let's start with something that I've been seeing a lot of recently, but it's sort of been rolling around for years now. And it's this idea that the pill will change who you're attracted to, which is all part of this sort of larger idea that the pill, because of the way it affects hormones, it, like, fundamentally changes who you are. So what do we know about this?

[Rose Rimler]

I really enjoyed looking into this. So let's dive in. It's very interesting. So great. So this all comes from the fact that the combined pill, which is the typical birth control pill, stops you from obvious. And that's how it works. That's how it keeps you from getting pregnant.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

But ovulating is thought to be important for things like sexual attraction. So there's this theory out there that when you're ovulating, as in you're ready to make a baby, you're attracted to a different kind of guy than you are the rest of the month. This theory predicts that if you're into guys, you would go for a more masculine kind of guy around that time.

[Julia Stern]

That's basically the idea.

[Rose Rimler]

So I talked about this with Julia Stern. She's a psychologist at the University of Bremen in Germany.

[Julia Stern]

If you're fertile, you might be interested in a very masculine guy. And when you're not fertile anymore, you might be more interested in the good Guy.

[Rose Rimler]

So when you're in your fertile window, you are attracted to someone like Dwayne the Rock Johnson. But then when you're outside the fertile window, you're more like a Timothee Chalamet kind of girl. Is that what's going on here?

[Julia Stern]

More or less, yes. So, of course, Dwayne the Rock Johnson is, like, extremely muscular and has a very deep voice.

[Rose Rimler]

Do you think those are appropriate celebrities depict?

[Julia Stern]

I mean, Dwayne the Rock Johnson is pretty accurate. Maybe. But what about Kevin James, for example, for the Good Guy? Wasn't he the King of Queens actor?

[Rose Rimler]

There's a meme that went around of him shrugging, like, shyly shrugging.

[Julia Stern]

Oh, yeah, But I know that meme.

[Rose Rimler]

What are you seeing in this picture that makes you say, oh yeah, that's it.

[Julia Stern]

Well, it's, it's a smile. Maybe like this rather shy smile. He doesn't look dominant at all. It's more like come home, I give you a hug.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Uh huh.

[Rose Rimler]

It's like, I'm not here to vanquish your enemies. I'm here to like give you a nice hug and hand you a cup of tea at the end of the day.

[Julia Stern]

Yes. And then play with the children after coming home from work.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. So I know that sounds like something totally made up on like a dumb podcast.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Not this one, not this one.

[Rose Rimler]

Like a dumb podcast. But scientists are like into this idea.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This idea that when you are ovulating you're attracted to different kinds of men.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. This is a real concept in the scientific literature. And the concern is that if you never ovulate, you never have that natural shift towards the rock. You're always, you're gonna be permanently stuck in the Kevin James portion of your cyc.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I do have a bugbear with these evolutionary psychology theories though.

[Rose Rimler]

I know you hate this stuff.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I just, I mean, we know that these theories are based on these biases around what men and women are supposed to do. And these theorists could just say whatever they want. Has anyone actually tested this?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, they show women pictures of men and they've altered the men's faces to be either more masculine or more feminine. That's pretty subtle. I can show you some of these.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

You wanna show me manipulated faces? So this is two different people. The image on the right has been masculinized. The image on the left has been feminized.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I'm very good at playing, you know that kids game, Spot the difference.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So this is really harnessing some of that power. The nose looks a little more pinched in the quote unquote feminized version. The brow looks a little lower. The eyes look a little bigger in the feminized version.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay. So they give people and they say, who are you more attracted to?

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And a number of studies have actually found that women prefer a more masculine face around the time they ovulate and a less masculine face the rest of the month.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Really?

[Rose Rimler]

And women who are on the pill, studies have found that they always prefer the less masculine face. No, so these studies are all done in presumably straight CIS women, by the way. And that's true for like all this research. So yeah, that's what a lot of studies have reported. And actually a review paper that came out in 2014 said that the effect of birth control on mate choice is, quote, relatively robust.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Relatively robust.

[Rose Rimler]

That's what they said. And when I read that, I was like, oh, like, okay. And, you know, the stakes are kind of big here, because what this suggests is that if you're on birth control, when you meet someone and. And then you go off it after you're married or vice versa, maybe you end up with someone who is not the partner you would have otherwise chosen. And that is freaky. In fact, some data suggests that people who use hormonal birth control had 50% higher odds of getting divorced.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Do you feel like who you're attracted to changes depending on where you are.

[Rose Rimler]

In your cycle on the day? No. Julia doesn't either, actually. And that's one reason she wanted to get into this.

[Julia Stern]

I never experienced that. None of my friends has ever told me about that. But at the same time, sometimes in science, effects are really small and we are not really able to perceive them. But that kind of still happens unconsciously.

[Rose Rimler]

So Julia looked at these studies more closely, and she realized something kind of odd in these studies, and that is that in a lot of them, we really can't be sure that the women were definitely ovulating when they were tested.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

What?

[Rose Rimler]

So most of these studies just estimated where people were in their cycle based on the date of their last period. So they just assumed, like, okay, if you're on day 14, you're probably in your fertile window.

[Julia Stern]

But the reality is cycles vary a lot in length between women and also within women.

[Rose Rimler]

It sounds like you're saying these studies were trying to figure out if women had a different preference when they were ovulating, but they didn't actually double check the women were actually ovulating. Is that true?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Julia Stern]

That's basically the point. Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

Sounds pretty bad.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That is bad also. Cause it's so easy to check. I mean, now you can pee on a stick. Probably when these studies were done, you do a blood test.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I know. And so over the past decade or so, there have been all these studies that do actually check people's hormones and find out, okay, are you for sure ovulating? And then they get them to look at faces. And guess what, Wendy, These studies, they don't see this effect, right?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

No, no, they don't. Of course they don't. I mean, you think. You think about how many bull studies came out that didn't actually test if women were ovulating. How many think pieces have been written about this evolutionary theory around masculine, virile men and who's Attracted to them. Oh, my God. But then what about the research that shows that people on the pill are always in the Kevin James portion of their cycle?

[Rose Rimler]

That doesn't hold up either in newer studies, bigger studies. So there's this one big study that came out pretty recently. It was almost 6,500 people. They showed these faces to women on the pill versus not on the pill. No difference.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

No difference. Okay. So if you are on the pill and you are worried about this, you do not need to be worried about this. Based on all of your research, Rose, there is not good evidence that the pill changes who you're attracted to.

[Rose Rimler]

That's what I would say, yeah. And can we just talk about the smell thing?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

The smell thing, Wendy, There is this.

[Rose Rimler]

Idea that men can sniff out ovulating women and that they find them more attractive, and so therefore, men won't find you as attractive while you're on the pill.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay. Had not heard this theory, but from an evolutionary perspective, I would actually buy it more than that masculine, feminine garbage we just talked about.

[Rose Rimler]

Why is that?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Because it makes sense that for animals like humans, who ovulate on a cycle every month, that there is some evolutionary pressure that has allowed males to sense when they might be fertile.

[Rose Rimler]

Because.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, because it does take energy to blow your load. So you want to make sure you're putting it in the right place to. So smell. Sure, yeah, sure.

[Rose Rimler]

I mean, that's interesting you bring that up because, like, the. A lot of the idea here is that a lot of animals display when they're ovulating, including other primates. So some of them have this, like, huge swelling of their anus and vulva when they're ovulating to be like, I am ovulating. Come and get me.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I just clenched. I just clenched.

[Rose Rimler]

But then humans, we don't seem to. So we have what researchers call concealed ovulation. But then other researchers have been like, wait, maybe it's not really concealed. Maybe it's just very subtle. And so they have actually done these studies to try to figure out, are there subtle little cues that men can pick up on that women, like, don't even know they're giving off and that.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

The pill is interfering with ultimately. And.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes. And if that's so, then the pill could interfere with it.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

And there's some very modern research on this. I spoke to someone who wanted to get to the bottom of that. Yes. So I'm Madita and I work at the University of Leipzig. I wanted to assess whether there is something in women's Body odor that changes during the menstrual cycle. Madita Setcha, she wanted to actually do a chemical analysis of armpit odor over the course of the cycle. Yes. The idea here is to find out if the smell changes, and if so, can men tell? And then do they like it?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This is great. This is great.

[Rose Rimler]

So they recruited about 30 young women to come into the lab a bunch of times over the course of their menstrual cycle. And every time they came in, Medita's team sucked up a little bit of their BO with this special equipment. We have little metal tubes, basically like a straw. What did that look like when you said straw? I'm imagining, like, you're on the other end, like, sucking it up. I'm sure that wasn't what it was. No, that was not the case. It would have been exceptionally funny.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

No, but no. We used a little pump. A little pump. So they're pumping out the sweat. It's not the sweat. It's the odor emitting from the armpits.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes. This little machine would suck out the odor. And they knew where the women were in their cycle. They gave him a pee test and a saliva test. This is a good study.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, so are we emitting some different odor when we're ovulating?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, here's how Medita put it. There was no compound or a combination of compound which was indicative of, let's say, ovulation or the fertile window. That's a nerdy way of saying she couldn't find a smell. No, there's no ovulation scent. O De. Ovulation is not a thing. No. Oh, I don't think that there is.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

An ovulation scent in women so far.

[Rose Rimler]

On top of that, Medita got guys to come into the lab as well and sniff BO samples from the armpits of the women throughout their cycle to.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

See if the men's noses were more sensitive than her very sensitive chemical analysis.

[Rose Rimler]

I guess so. Yeah. And they couldn't tell. They didn't find the ovulation sweat any more attractive.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So based on this idea that, you know, people blame the pill for covertly changing how you smell over your menstrual cycle, and therefore men will find you less attractive. The fact that our scent does not change over our menstrual cycle suggests to me it's garbage. Like, the pill doesn't change your scent and therefore wouldn't make men more or less attracted to you because of that.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I think that's right. I agree with that. And so just to take it Back to something we heard at the start of the show. I asked Julia about that Elon Musk line saying, like, this is true. If you take the pill, you end up with the wrong person.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Rose Rimler]

And he said it will, quote, make you go out with people you don't actually like. So what is your response to that?

[Julia Stern]

No one has ever provided any compelling evidence that this really happens.

[Rose Rimler]

Even going back to that study that found that people who used hormonal birth control had 50% higher odds of getting divorced. Well, the same study found that you had 60% higher odds of getting divorced if you'd ever used condoms.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, so just using contraception makes it more likely you'll get a divorce? I mean, when you first said that statistics, I didn't find it entirely convincing to be blaming the divorces on the pill. Something else is going on there.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. I think what we could say from that study is like, whatever's driving people to divorce, it's not hormones, you know, in their contraception.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

So, Wendy, we've had ourselves a real nice little debunk fest.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

We have.

[Rose Rimler]

But the pill is not totally innocent. So let's look at some of the stuff that does seem to happen.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

And let's start with libido. Cause another potential consequence of not ovulating is that you could be less horny.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes. Right. And we know, based on science, real, actual science, that when you're ovulating, on average, you do get a little more horny. Right. Which makes sense.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And so, you know, if you take that away, maybe that could tank your sex drive. And so to figure this out, there were researchers in Sweden that enrolled almost 350 women into a study and gave them either birth control pills or a placebo.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That sounds dangerous.

[Rose Rimler]

They were told to use condoms or some other backup.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

So they didn't know if they were on the pill or not. And they got this survey about their sexual function essentially before they went on the pill and after they went on the pill or placebo. And it turned out that on average, people's sexual desire, arousal and pleasure went down over the course of the study. So over three months. And this is a weird way to think about something like desire, but the amount of the decrease was like 7 or 8% of a decrease.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So it's not necessarily going to tank your sex drive. But still, I mean, that is something to think about because this was an average ride. So it would have affected some folks more than others.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, of course. Yeah, for sure. And we don't know exactly why this happens. It could be the ovulating thing, but also bigger picture. There is this sort of package of mental health effects that a lot of people say they experience when they take the pill. They say that the pill has actually been harmful to their mental health. And the same research actually gives us some clues about that because these women were also given surveys about their mood.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So what did they find?

[Rose Rimler]

So these women also scored worse on stuff like feelings of well being, vitality, and self control. Interestingly, and other studies that track people who take the pill do find an increase in depression. And in clinical trials, 4 to 10% of people who went on the pill develop symptoms of depression.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And what do we know about the mechanism here? Because on TikTok videos, you see people sort of combining this fact that the pill can increase your risk of depression with these headlines. You also see that the pill changes your brain.

[Rose Rimler]

So there are studies that have found structural changes in the brain and people who are on hormonal birth control. And these are studies where they put someone in an mri, they'll see sometimes that on the pill, areas of the brain are smaller or thinner. One study actually found that a person's cerebral cortex shrank after being on the pill. So you could see why people link this kind of stuff to what's causing depression. Yeah, but Caitlin Taylor, who's a neuroscientist at the University of California, Santa Barbara, she says that this is not the right interpretation here. And she pointed out that changes to the brain are not necessarily bad. You learn a new skill, it affects your brain. You live in an urban versus a rural environment. It affects your brain, like everything. That's why we're so successful. Our brain is malleable. Even studies that find a shrinking of the brain are not necessarily a concern because we know that the brain often shrinks in order to resculpt itself, especially when we're younger. So, for example, kids, studies have found that they actually lose gray matter as they learn. And in fact, more gray matter loss is associated with better test scores and even higher IQs. Even putting that aside, not every study finds brain shrinkage happens on the pill. Like, there are some studies that have showed the opposite, that women had increased gray matter on the pill compared with women not on the pill. So I think we have enough compelling evidence that it is having an effect on your body and your brain. But the nature of that effect, I think we're still wrapping our heads around. We're kind of the scientists in the dark trying to feel the elephant, where it's like, it's a trunk. No, it's a snake. Like, we're kind of coming together to try and be like, what is it that we're figuring out here?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So it sounds like pinning the depression mechanism on changes in the brain is not a good idea because we're still working out what these changes mean at all.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And what's maybe surprising is that some people's mental health gets better on the pill. So it's a mixed bag. And we think the mechanism probably has more to do with. Well, we know there's tons of receptors for these hormones in the brain that they interact with neurotransmitters like serotonin.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So when you take these hormones in the pill, estrogen, progestin, it can interact with these neurotransmitters in our brain.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And it's more likely that's to blame for increasing our risk of depression than the pill changing your brain.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

After the break, does the pill make you put on weight? Plus, get excited, because we are gonna go on a magical journey into the world of pre cum. That's pre coming up. This episode is brought to you by Ford. I'm here with our editor and electric vehicle owner, Blyth.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes, I'm recording inside my Ford F150 Lightning truck to chat about the Ford Power Promise.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

What's that?

[Rose Rimler]

It is Ford's commitment to getting electric vehicle drivers started with confidence. When you buy or lease one of their electric vehicles, you get a complimentary home charger and standard installation.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow. That's pretty impressive. Which models are included?

[Rose Rimler]

The Ford Mustang Mach E F150 Lightning and E transit cargo van. You can visit FordPowerpromise.com to learn more.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Must purchase or lease a new Ford F150 Lightning Mustang Mach E or E Transit cargo van vehicle from a participating ford dealer between October 1, 2024 and January 2, 2025. To be eligible to receive a one complimentary Ford charge Station Pro Ford Charger model may vary based on availability, with complementary home installation or B2000 bonus cash. No trade in required. Often not available to fleet or commercial customers. Complementary home installation must be performed through Qmerit Electrification LLC at a residential location with a dedicated electrical meter. Restrictions may apply based on structural and electrical limitations. Installation must be completed by June 30, 2025, for all offers. Must take retail delivery from an authorised Ford dealer's stock by January 2, 2025. See your Ford dealer for details and terms.

[Rose Rimler]

This episode is brought to you by.

[Madita Setcha]

Netflix from the co director of Shrek.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And The visionary behind Toy Story comes.

[Rose Rimler]

Spellbound, a magical new animated adventure. Starring Rachel Zegler, John Lithgow, Jennifer Lewis, Nathan Lane and Titus Burgess.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

With Javier Bardem and Nicole Kidman. When a powerful spell turns her parents.

[Madita Setcha]

Into monsters, Princess Elian must journey into.

[Rose Rimler]

The wild to reverse the curse before it's too late.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Watch Spellbound Only on Netflix November 22nd. This episode is brought to you by Etsy. Oh, hear that?

[Rose Rimler]

Okay, thank you.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Etsy knows these aren't the sounds of holiday gifting. Well, not the ones you're hoping for. You want squeals of delight, Happy tears?

[Rose Rimler]

How did you.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And spontaneously written songs of joy?

[Rose Rimler]

I am so happy. Oh, yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Um, okay, the song needs a bit.

[Rose Rimler]

Of work, but anyway, to get those.

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[Rose Rimler]

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[Wendy Zuckerman]

Welcome back. Today on the show the Pill. So far we've learned that you should not trust Elon Mus when he tells you that birth control is going to make you attracted to people that you otherwise would not be attracted to. And now let's talk about weight gain.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. And belief that the pill makes you gain weight is this is important to talk about because it's a very common reason that people avoid taking the pill or stop taking it. And there are, you know, potential mechanisms here, like why this might be happening. So one idea here is that maybe the pill, something about the hormones in the pill cause your metabolism to slow down. And so researchers have actually tested this in monkeys. They gave monkeys in a lab a birth control pill every day for eight months. They also measured their metabolism before going on the pill and after. And because these were monkeys in a lab, they were able to keep their food the same. So if there was any weight gain, they could be confident it Was because of a change in their metabolism.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So what did they find?

[Rose Rimler]

They actually lost weight.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

The monkeys lost weight.

[Rose Rimler]

They didn't gain weight. They lost weight, which suggests that their metabolism increased slightly.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

And we know that they lost fat, not muscle. And then from the studies that we have in people, well, they don't find that people lose weight on the pill. They also don't find that they gain weight either, in comparison to, you know, like some kind of control group.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Interesting. So another pill myth busted. The pill does not cause weight gain.

[Rose Rimler]

That's right. And let me just bring up another thing that drives me kind of crazy, which is all this chatter about how dangerous the pill is and how many side effects it has. You know, a lot of what people point to is stuff that's either really rare or it's not even confirmed to be linked to the pill. And in reality, most researchers in this space agree that there's basically two major risks from the pill the average person should know about.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

And again, we're talking about the combined pill.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

So one is blood clots. Your risk will go from maybe 3 in 10,000 to maybe 6 in 10,000 once you're on the pill. And the other is breast cancer. And the risk for that goes from like 5 or 6 in 10,000 to about 7 in 10,000.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So small increases, we're talking. Yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

And also, you know, the pill will actually reduce your risk of some other cancers, so namely endometrial cancer and ovarian cancer.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So, Rose, we've gone deep on some myths and not so myths around the pill, but the pill is not the only game in town here. If you are a vagina and you're looking to have sex with a penis and you don't want to get pregnant.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, of course there are other options, but there's one in particular that I want to zoom in on because it's gotten a lot of attention online, and people are saying it's this great alternative, this revolutionary new way to. To manage your fertility.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh.

[Rose Rimler]

This is called the fertility awareness method. And all it requires of you is to take time to listen to your body zero hormones. That is also 99, over 99% effective when used perfectly.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Fertility awareness. Listen to your body. This isn't new.

[Rose Rimler]

It's kind of the oldest game in town, actually.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So for those unfamiliar, break it down for us.

[Rose Rimler]

So in a nutshell, this idea is that if you have a 28 day cycle, day one being your period, then day 14 is roughly when you ovulate. And so you would avoid having Unprotected sex in the days just right around that time. And if you're just looking at a calendar to do this, studies have shown that the failure rate here can be as high as 25%.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh. If you don't want to get pregnant, that is not a success. No, but that's not good at all.

[Rose Rimler]

Not great. And this could be because it's just not a great way to pick up ovulation. Like we talked about with the study on masculine and feminine faces, there's too much variation and the average person's cycle.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, that's why those studies were so bad, right? Exactly.

[Rose Rimler]

But to be fair to the tiktokers, they're often talking about adding other observations to make this method more successful. Things like looking at your cervical mucus, as I like to call it, the gunk in your underwear. I talked about this with Jasmine Patel. She's an ob GYN at the University of California, Irvine.

[Madita Setcha]

The day before and the day of ovulation, your cervical mucus becomes very slippery, kind of acting as additional lubricant. Your body's trying to have you have sex so that you get pregnant.

[Rose Rimler]

So if you're, like, looking down and you're producing your own lube, that's an indication that you might be ovulating.

[Madita Setcha]

Exactly.

[Rose Rimler]

It's a little bit more involved than just looking at your dirty panties. A lot of experts recommend putting a couple fingers in your vagina and then checking the texture of what comes out when you're ovulating. It's kind of like egg whites.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

You could also use those pee strips that we mentioned earlier that check hormones to see if you're ovulating. And there's another method where you track your temperature by taking it first thing in the morning with a very sensitive thermometer.

[Madita Setcha]

And so when you ovulate, it goes about 4/10 of a degree up compared to baseline. Very specific.

[Rose Rimler]

So there are all these different formulas and apps for putting this data together in order to guess when you're about to ovulate.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Rose Rimler]

Which means, like, this is the time when you can get pregnant.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rose Rimler]

And so if you do this perfectly, these methods can be up to 99.6% effective.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow. 99.6. That puts it up with the pill. Right?

[Rose Rimler]

That's about the same as perfect use of the pill. Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Huh. So would you use this?

[Rose Rimler]

Uh, you know, I was really surprised that this could be so effective and that the tiktokers are kind of right here. Like, oh, there is a fertility awareness method. That can be 99% effective. Yeah, that's really cool. But I'm still kind of, like, uncomfortable with how this gets tossed around on TikTok because, you know, we only have a few studies, really, on these methods, while for the pill, we have tons of studies and many thousands of people and all these different circumstances. So we can just be much more confident about the effectiveness there. And then also, you know, these methods take a lot of work and a lot of careful planning. You got to think about this, track it every day. And Jasmine says it's not always smooth sailing.

[Madita Setcha]

It also entails, like, knowing your body really well and having your body not change because of stress or because of a fever or because of a vaginal infection.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So fertility awareness methods, they are an option and they're not a bad option. But be aware that just like condoms, they can have holes in them.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, so while we're talking about condoms, let's talk about the penis in this equation here.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes, we don't have hormonal birth control for them yet, but there are non hormonal options. Obviously. They could wear condoms.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Rose Rimler]

Could get vasectomies. They could also not ejaculate in the vagina. Right. They could pull out.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Pull out method. But I guess there has always been this question of can you get pregnant from pre cum?

[Rose Rimler]

Right. A classic.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Which we have been tantalizing the audience with the answer of this question for probably half an hour now. All right. If it's not obvious, the scientific question around the pullout method, which has been circling around the science versus office for some time, is that you're having sex, you're the penis, and a little bit of pre cum is coming out into the vagina. But yet then when you're about to truly blow your load, you pull out, out it goes.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, that's how it works.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And you know, you watch American Pie and movies of that vintage, they'll talk about this, like, fear of. But scientifically, we didn't know if there was enough sperm, good sperm in pre cum to make someone pregnant.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So what do we know now?

[Rose Rimler]

Rose, we have new research on this. It just came out.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow. Hot off the pre cum press.

[Rose Rimler]

Yes. And it's from Jasmine. So she did this great study about looking for swimmers in pre cum. She got men to come to a clinic.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I thought she just got men to come, that.

[Rose Rimler]

They came into the clinic. I'm like leaving no pods at all. And to masturbate, kind of to give a sperm sample, but doing it a little differently than how you Might otherwise give a sperm sample. So to collect the pre cum, she basically had the guys masturbate into a petri dish. So the guys had to press the tip of their penis onto the petri dish as they jerked off.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

They'd have to be experienced jerkers for that.

[Rose Rimler]

I think we can assume they were experienced jerkers. That's a fair assumption. So then the dribble or whatever was coming off the penis before ejaculation could kind of just spread across the dish without losing a drop.

[Julia Stern]

Yeah.

[Madita Setcha]

And so it just depends on how much that person was producing.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right.

[Madita Setcha]

So some people will produce a larger volume and so it'll come out in a larger quantity and therefore have more propulsion and you know, actually get onto the dish.

[Rose Rimler]

Okay.

[Madita Setcha]

And for others that only produce a few drops in order to transfer it, like you need to kind of push it onto container. And so that's when they had to push their penis against the dish to be able to transfer it. So we're not losing any specimen.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So what happened next?

[Rose Rimler]

Well, what happens next is the men come, but they pull their penis off the dish and into a cup. So what she was looking for was do the men have at least a million healthy swimmers per milliliter? That's what scientists think that you need to get someone pregnant.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Madita Setcha]

What we found was that there were very, very few samples that had motile sperm greater than 1 million sperm per milliliter.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Mm.

[Madita Setcha]

The majority of people had no sperm in their pre ejaculate whatsoever.

[Rose Rimler]

Interesting, right?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Very.

[Rose Rimler]

But here's the catch.

[Madita Setcha]

It wasn't consistent. So the same person could sometimes have sperm of high quantities in their pre ejaculate and sometimes not have it. Meaning that sometimes they're at higher risk of pregnancy and sometimes they're not.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, that's annoying. Cause if you're having sex with a penis or if you are the penis, you don't know if you're a sperm filled pre cum haver or not.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah. Ultimately, out of 24 people in Jasmine's study, five sometimes had enough sperm in their pre cum to get someone pregnant.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Uh huh. 5 out of 24. I mean that's enough to make me a little worried, I've got to say.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I don't know. It depends. Like I think some people see the pre come as half full and some people see the pre come as half empty. I mean you can look at it the thing with birth control, and here's something that has really been driven home to me as I've been working on this episode is like, everybody's risk tolerance is different.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, that's. Of course, of course. And I think, I mean, what I do really like, I guess, about this new conversation around the pill is because for so long, there really has been this just assumption that women and folks with vaginas are gonna be taking it. And for some people, as you've talked about, there are side effects. It does affect their mental health. It may lower their libido. And there are those, you know, very rare risks around breast cancer and blood clots. And so it is right to ask yourself, you know, if you're starting to have P and V sex, is this right for you? And if not, what else is out there? And can we start putting a little pressure and responsibility on the penis in the equation? So for that reason, it's great.

[Rose Rimler]

Yeah, I agree. But I do think that they can go overboard with that messaging, because what online creators are trying to do is to get your attention. And so saying that the pill is dangerous, there's a marvelous new method that's perfect. Saying all that stuff gets eyeballs. It's not about responsible communication about reproductive.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Health, but that's what you come to. Science versus full responsible communication about reproductive health and the real science.

[Rose Rimler]

On Precom, we always find the important and meaningful stories to bring to you our beloved audience.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And that is science versus Rose. How many citations are in this week's episode?

[Rose Rimler]

This week we have 75 citations.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

75. And if people want to see more, learn more about the pill, where do they find these citations?

[Rose Rimler]

They can check the transcript and there is a link to the transcript in our show notes and on social media this week, anything fun, we're gonna put some pictures of the masculine or feminized male faces so the listeners can play Spot the difference too. And we could throw in a picture of a chimpanzee in heat, please. Yeah, okay. All right, I'll make that happen.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Our Instagram is science underscore Vs. And my TikTok is WendyZuckerman. So come say hello. All right, thanks so much, Rose.

[Rose Rimler]

Thanks, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This episode was produced by Rose Rimler with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman, along with Michelle Dang, Akedi Foster Keys and Meryl Horne. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Fact checking by E. Dasher. Recording assistance from Emile B. Klein. Mix and sound design by Sam Baer. Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka, Peter Leonard and Emma Munger. Thanks to all of the researchers that we spoke to for this episode, including Dr. Adrian Beltz, Professor Alison Edelman Dr. Emily Fender, Professor Jaishree Kulkarni, Dr. Jill Kraft, Dr. Rachel Urutia, and Dr. Therese Johansson. Special thanks to Maya Foster. Science Fiction Verses is a Spotify Studios original. Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We are everywhere but if you are listening on Spotify then tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come up. And also if you like the show, please rate us. Give us a five star review that helps people find the show. Thank you so much for listening. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Fact you Next time.