The Real Anti-inflammatory Diet

Summary

Science Vs: The Real Anti-inflammatory Diet Hosted by Spotify Studios Release Date: December 12, 2024

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Introduction

In the latest episode of Science Vs, host Wendy Zuckerman delves deep into the pervasive topic of inflammation, the number one health trend of 2024. Titled "The Real Anti-inflammatory Diet", the episode explores the science behind inflammation, its impact on both physical and mental health, and examines popular claims about anti-inflammatory diets and lifestyle choices.

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1. Understanding Inflammation and Its Impact on Health

Wendy Zuckerman opens the discussion by highlighting how inflammation is frequently blamed for a myriad of health issues. As she notes, "If you're not feeling well, you most likely have inflammation." ([00:20]). Symptoms associated with inflammation include bloating, headaches, sleep disturbances, and day-time fatigue.

Verol Hord emphasizes the dangerous nature of chronic inflammation, stating, "Inflammation is really dangerous in a lot of ways because it just triggers bad things in your body." ([00:45]). Beyond physical ailments, inflammation is also linked to mental health struggles such as anxiety, depression, and chronic fatigue, as it disrupts the communication between brain neurons.

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2. Inflammation and Mental Health

The conversation shifts to the profound effects of inflammation on mental health. Verol explains the immune system's role in fighting pathogens but points out the toll it takes on overall well-being, "If you have a flu or a cold, your immune system is fighting against this virus... that's inflammation." ([05:31]).

Caroline Menard, an associate professor at Laval University, elaborates on research indicating that chronic inflammation can lead to mental health issues. She shares her groundbreaking discovery of how inflammation affects the blood-brain barrier, the protective shield surrounding the brain's blood vessels. Visual representations from Caroline's studies depict significant damage to this barrier in both mice and humans suffering from depression and those who have experienced severe COVID-19 cases, leading to conditions like brain fog ([08:21] - [13:22]).

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3. Chronic Inflammation: Causes and Statistics

Chronic inflammation is attributed to various factors, including stress, aging, excess body fat, and air pollution. Verol cites alarming statistics: "About 35% of US adults have chronic inflammation," and "70% of all deaths worldwide are caused by chronic inflammatory diseases." ([15:49]).

Wendy expresses surprise at the widespread impact of chronic inflammation, to which Verol responds, "There's a lot of evidence backing that this is the puppet master of health inside of our bodies." ([16:34]). This revelation underscores the critical need to address chronic inflammation as a central component of overall health.

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4. Diet's Role in Reducing Inflammation

4a. Misconceptions About Nightshades

The discussion moves to dietary approaches to managing inflammation. A common trend is the avoidance of nightshades—vegetables like tomatoes, eggplants, and potatoes—believed by some to exacerbate inflammation. Wendy humorously remarks on the skepticism surrounding this, mentioning celebrity influences: "Gwyneth Paltrow was crapping on about how much she hated nightshades." ([17:40]).

Verol references a University of California, San Francisco report stating, "No research has shown that solanine has a direct effect on inflammation." ([19:05]), debunking the notion that avoiding nightshades significantly lowers inflammation. Instead, these vegetables are praised for their anti-inflammatory properties due to their rich content of polyphenols and fiber, which support gut health and reduce inflammation ([19:28] - [19:40]).

4b. The Mediterranean Diet

A highlight of the episode is the exploration of the Mediterranean diet through the extensive Predimed study led by Rosa Casas, an associate professor at the University of Barcelona. This long-term, randomized controlled trial involved over 7,000 participants aged 55 and above at risk for heart disease. Participants in the Mediterranean diet group received guidance from dietitians and were supplied with key ingredients like olive oil and nuts to ensure adherence ([25:30] - [27:38]).

After one year, significant reductions in inflammation markers, such as C-reactive protein (CRP), were observed—down by more than 40% ([28:24]). Additionally, the diet was associated with a 30% reduction in cardiovascular disease and a lower incidence of breast cancer among women ([31:02] - [31:52]).

Verol explains that the Mediterranean diet's effectiveness stems from its combination of diverse anti-inflammatory foods working synergistically, rather than relying on a single "superfood" ([29:04]). Components like omega-3 fatty acids from fish, fiber from vegetables and legumes, and the reduction of processed foods collectively contribute to lowered inflammation ([30:01] - [30:33]).

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5. Exercise and Inflammation

There is a widespread debate about whether exercise reduces or exacerbates inflammation. Some online claims suggest that high-intensity workouts can increase chronic inflammation, but Verol clarifies the science behind it.

Grace Rose, a lecturer at the University of the Sunshine Coast in Australia, explains that while intense exercise like marathon running does cause a temporary spike in inflammatory markers due to muscle stress and tissue damage ([33:03] - [34:07]), meta-analyses reveal that long-term, regular exercise does not increase chronic inflammation. In fact, it is more likely to reduce the risk of chronic inflammation over time ([34:58] - [35:36]).

Wendy humorously adds to the conversation, acknowledging the benefits of exercise and resolving not to participate in marathons, "I never want to do a marathon..." ([34:20]).

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6. Practical Tips to Reduce Inflammation

Towards the end of the episode, practical strategies to mitigate chronic inflammation are discussed:

• Adopt a Mediterranean Diet: Emphasizing vegetables, fruits, whole grains, nuts, and healthy fats like olive oil.

• Increase Fiber Intake: Supports gut health and reduces inflammatory markers.

• Manage Stress: Techniques such as taking baths, walking, engaging in hobbies like heavy metal concerts or video games can help lower stress levels ([37:08] - [38:05]).

• Ensure Adequate Sleep: Essential for reducing inflammation and promoting overall health.

Caroline Menard shares personal strategies, highlighting the importance of finding individual relaxation methods that work best for each person ([37:43]).

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Wendy summarizing the critical insights:

• Chronic inflammation is a significant contributor to numerous health issues, both physical and mental.

• Diet plays a pivotal role in managing inflammation, with the Mediterranean diet standing out as scientifically supported.

• Exercise, contrary to some beliefs, is beneficial and unlikely to increase chronic inflammation when performed regularly.

Wendy encourages listeners to embrace holistic dietary changes and lifestyle adjustments rather than seeking quick fixes. The episode underscores the importance of comprehensive approaches to health, backed by robust scientific research.

As Wendy aptly puts it, "Take that tomato, put it in a pan with some olive oil, simmer it, and enjoy." ([32:22])

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Notable Quotes

• Wendy Zuckerman: "If you're not feeling well, you most likely have inflammation." ([00:20])

• Verol Hord: "Inflammation is really dangerous in a lot of ways because it just triggers bad things in your body." ([00:45])

• Caroline Menard: "We were able to see the same phenomenon in the human brain as well, of individuals who die by suicide compared to healthy control." ([11:21])

• Verol Hord: "A lot of people say that the key to lowering your inflammation is through diet, right?" ([17:15])

• Caroline Menard: "I think it's really everybody can find their own recipe, find something to do that you like, like taking a long bath, going for a walk with your dog..." ([37:43])

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Further Information

For those interested in exploring the topics discussed, Science Vs provides extensive show notes with links to relevant studies and additional resources. Engaging visuals, like the blood-brain barrier images, are available on their Instagram page, ScienceVS, where listeners can see the fascinating illustrations discussed in the episode.

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This summary is intended to provide an overview of the podcast episode and does not constitute medical advice. Always consult with healthcare professionals for medical concerns.

Transcript

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Verses. This is the show that pits facts against the fire inside your body. Today on the show, inflammation. Everyone is talking about it.

[Verol Hord]

If you're not feeling well, you most likely have inflammation.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

The number one health trend of 2024 is reducing inflammation. Reducing inflammation that we so much about these days. If you're feeling crappy in basically any way, people say that it is inflammation that's to blame.

[Verol Hord]

You're typically bloated and maybe you have.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Headaches and you're having problems sleeping at.

[Verol Hord]

Night or you're fatigued during the day.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Inflammation is really dangerous in a lot of ways because it just triggers bad things in your body. Not only is it triggering bad things in your body, but people say that inflammation can ravage your mind. Yeah. Struggling with your mental health. Apparently it's inflammation. Inflammation in our brains can cause all kinds of problems, including anxiety, depression, chronic fatigue. Inflammation gets in the way of your brain neurons talking to each other.

[Caroline Menard]

You're feeling a little more anxious, have.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

A bit of depression. This is a huge sign of chronic inflammation. Never fear though. The Internet also has solutions. There are all these tips online about what you have to do to rid your body of inflammation. Like you need to avoid certain kinds of exercise.

[Verol Hord]

Over exercising can cause a lot of inflammation, especially in the gut.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And the biggie is to change your diet. You can read countless books about anti inflammatory diets and it feels like everyone's got advice about what to eat or not to eat to lower your inflammation. Question, what are some good anti inflammatory foods? Blackberries, cranberries, blueberries, strawberries, anti inflammation juice, celery, ginger. And if you can get turmeric, absolutely.

[Verol Hord]

Add the turmeric.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Turmeric is the one when it comes to fighting inflammation.

[Verol Hord]

Let's talk about nightshades. Tomatoes and nightshades are going to kill you.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Did you catch that? Tomatoes and nightshades are going to kill you. If you missed it, catch up. But curiously, it's not just health fluencers that are obsessed with inflammation these days. Scientists are too. In fact, there has been this explosion of research in this space in the past year. There were over 60,000 new scientific papers written about inflammation. 60,000. And we read some of them to find out what is the groundbreaking research on inflammation? What is it doing to our bodies and our brains? And if this is a problem for you, how can you tamp down that inflammation? When it comes to our health, a lot of us have been wondering if we most likely have inflammation but then there's science. Science versus Inflammation is coming up just after the break. This episode is presented by bank of America. Money decisions. Do they really have to be either or with bank of America? Turns out they can be yes. And as in, yes to getting your own telescope and saving for a trip to the space observatory in Hawaii. Their digital tools help you create the future you want and help you keep enjoying today, too. Do more with the bank that asks, what would you like the power to do? Explore, tips and more at bank of America. Member fdic. Hey, it's Emma Chamberlain. I designed these new glasses for Warby Parker, and I basically can't take them off. Like, I'm showering in them and sleeping in them. They're just that good.

[Verol Hord]

Go see them [e-mail] and you know what?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Have a good day, too. Okay? All right, bye. Welcome back. Today we are looking at inflammation. How big of a problem is this? What can we do to tamp it down? Verol Hord, senior producer at Science Versus.

[Verol Hord]

Hi, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Are you worried about your inflammation?

[Verol Hord]

Um, I kind of am now. I wasn't before doing this episode, but now I'm like, this might be real. So, yeah, it's been a journey.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Well, let's start that journey at mental health, because I'm hearing a lot about how chronic inflammation is affecting our brain and our mental health. So what do we know here?

[Verol Hord]

Yeah, it's interesting because, like, one of the first clues that we got that maybe inflammation can actually affect our mental health. It kind of goes back to the, like, classic role that the immune system can play in our bodies. So, like, it fights viruses and bacteria and that's a good thing, right?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Verol Hord]

But we know that that fight can take a toll on us and make us feel pretty crappy. I talked about this with Caroline Menard. She's an associate professor at Laval University in Quebec City.

[Caroline Menard]

If you have a flu or a cold, your immune system is fighting against this virus.

[Verol Hord]

You feel it with that kind of Blair feeling when you have a cold. Like, that's inflammation.

[Caroline Menard]

Yeah. And generally you're not going to feel like going running or doing a lot of, like, super hard activities. You're just going to be, I'm gonna stay in bed, I'm gonna rest.

[Verol Hord]

So, yeah, being sick can actually give people symptoms of depression, like feeling sad and unmotivated. And we also have these cases where doctors have used drugs that really ramp up people's inflammation because it can help them fight diseases. And the doctors noticed that this treatment was making a lot of their patients really depressed.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, wow.

[Verol Hord]

So, like, there's evidence that inflammation itself can, like, make people's men health worse.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And so how does all of this work? How exactly does inflammation affect our mental health?

[Verol Hord]

Well, scientists are finding that out right now, and one of the big discoveries in the field was made by Caroline.

[Caroline Menard]

Not only I see it, but I know I'm the first person in the world ever to see it. And so the first time I saw it, I was very happy. I went to get a couple of IPAs because I thought it was really cool.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So what did she say?

[Verol Hord]

Okay, so to explain what she saw, let me first explain how her lab researches this. Okay, so they use mice, and they have this kind of terrible way of sparking inflammation in the mice. So with people, we know that if you experience social stress, like, if you get bullied a lot, you are more likely to have chronic inflammation. And so to mimic this in mice, here's what they do. First, they get a little, like, black mouse, and then they put it in a cage for, like, five or ten minutes every day with a larger, meaner white mouse. And every day, they basically get bullied by this more aggressive mouse.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

What does a bullying mouse look like?

[Verol Hord]

I mean, sometimes it actually kind of beats up the tinier one. Other times, it will just stare it down, looming over the mouse, and it will sometimes rattle his tail at it. But that's not the end of it.

[Caroline Menard]

What we do after that is we house them in the same cage, and they have a plastic transparent divider so they can see each other and smell there's holes so they don't physically interact. See the big bully on the other side? I say it's a bit like in the schoolyard. You know, when you see the bully on the other side of the schoolyard, you don't know if it's gonna come for you.

[Verol Hord]

Oh, no.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, that poor little mouse.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. I mean, so funnily enough, some of the mice are actually okay with all of this, but other mice seem like it messes them up a little bit. And so Caroline kind of looks at those mice that are really affected by this, and she does see that they have higher inflammation.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Verol Hord]

So this is basically chronic inflammation in the mice. And then the question is, well, what is this all doing to their brains?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Exactly.

[Verol Hord]

So to find that out, Caroline's team killed the mice, sliced up their brains, Right. And what she saw was that there are a bunch of immune cells right near the brain congregating in this area called the blood brain barrier.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Verol Hord]

And so this is this barrier that sort of surrounds all the blood vessels near your brain, and it's meant to keep our brain safe from all the dangerous stuff that's floating around in our blood.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right. It's meant to keep our brain safe. So what did she see here? I mean, was the blood brain barrier doing its job?

[Verol Hord]

Well, that's what Caroline wanted to look at. Since we know that these immune cells are pumping out inflammatory chemicals, and she saw that they were lining up near the barrier, she wanted to know whether this was actually affecting the blood brain barrier. So she uses this very fancy microscope that has lasers, and she takes these amazing IM of the mice. Okay, so let me show you one of the pictures. Ooh.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, great. Wait, what is this? It looks like two eels kissing on a thermal camera. What am I looking at?

[Verol Hord]

I mean, I guess I could see that. So the picture. That picture is of a control mouse, and that's the blood brain barrier lit up in fluorescent green. I guess it kind of looks like eels. Okay, but now let me show you the second picture of the mouse that has chronic inflammation.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Ooh.

[Verol Hord]

And you can see that the eels are kind of ripped to shreds.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That is a messed up blood brain barrier there. I mean, the green lines are. You can actually barely see them in some places.

[Caroline Menard]

You have these tiny holes. So instead of having a long line, you have these tiny gaps here and there. So this is where the barrier is broken.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. I mean, it almost looks like it's been ripped apart.

[Caroline Menard]

Yeah, exactly. And this is where the inflammation is sneaking.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

The inflammation is sneaking in. Is that what she said?

[Verol Hord]

Yeah, that's where the cytokines can get into the brain. And we know that once they're there, they can really do some damage. So they can cause oxidative stress in our neurons, and the cytokines can actually mess up the production of neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin, which we know can play a role in depression.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And so how much of this evidence is in humans?

[Verol Hord]

Now we are getting more and more that's in humans. Caroline has done most of her work in mice, but she also got some human brain samples from people with depression who actually died by suicide. And she could check, like, did they have the same little holes in their blood brain barrier that the mice did?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Caroline Menard]

And so we were able to see the same phenomenon in the human brain as well, of individuals who die by.

[Verol Hord]

Suicide compared to healthy control.

[Caroline Menard]

So healthy control would die from other reasons. For example, a car accident or something that was not related to depression.

[Verol Hord]

Wow. So you think this is happening in people too? Yes. And so now researchers are like trying to figure out if we can use this to help people with depression.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow. So, I mean, of all the people who are struggling with their mental health right now, do we have any idea how, how many might be able to blame inflammation for this?

[Verol Hord]

That's still a little unclear. So like, for depression, there is one small clinical trial that found roughly a third of the people in that study with depression had high inflammation and they were the ones that felt better after they got treated with an anti inflammatory drug. So it's not gonna be everyone, but it could be a pretty big chunk.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

It's funny cause as you were explaining the mechanism of how it all works, I have to say it really does feel like that is what is happening in my brain. I don't suffer from depression, but when I am very stressed, I do feel as if my brain gets a bit cotton bally or brain foggy. Yeah, I can almost feel those cytokines flooding in through my crappy blood brain barrier. And this, this only happened since I got Covid a couple of years ago. I never used to have this effect and I got a pretty nasty case.

[Verol Hord]

Of COVID Yeah, I asked Caroline about COVID actually, since I think a lot of people might have that experience now. And like, yeah, of course we've known for a long time that Covid causes a ton of inflammation. But then Caroline told me about this study that came out recently that was looking at the blood brain barrier of like 75 people who had Covid.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh gosh, I'm so nervous. It's not going to be good.

[Verol Hord]

Are you ready?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, I'm ready.

[Caroline Menard]

The barrier of the brain became way more leaky in those individual who had very strong case of COVID And then even with the brain fog, the long term Covid, they see this weakness of the barrier. So maybe the inflammation was so intense that the barrier became a bit more fragile.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And so she thinks that part of the reason people are getting brain fog is because this blood brain barrier is leaky. It's allowing more inflammation in, which is then causing damage to the brain.

[Verol Hord]

Basically. Yeah. And they could see this leakiness in people's brains who had brain fog even a year after they had Covid. Maybe this can help explain why people with long Covid have brain fog. And so, yeah, scientists definitely think now that like chronic inflammation can play a huge role in cognition and mental health, but it also messes with stuff besides our brains.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Do you know, like, I can almost Feel brain fog right now from the stress of what you have just told me there.

[Verol Hord]

Oh, no. Continue.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Continue with your laundry list of the terrible things caused by chronic inflammation.

[Verol Hord]

I'm sorry, Wendy's brain.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I know.

[Verol Hord]

All right, so yeah, we know that chronic inflammation is also linked to heart disease. One reason is that if your blood vessels are a little bit inflamed, a lot of the time, that can make plaque build up. Chronic inflammation is also linked to type 2 diabetes, cancer, asthma, and then of course, there's a ton of autoimmune diseases. So it's a long list.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This is. You're almost like the big mouse just bullying me with facts about how terrible inflammation is right now. Just staring at me.

[Verol Hord]

I am not the bully mouse.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Bullying me with facts, I guess. So why is it that some of us. Where does this chronic inflammation come from? Stress, as you've talked about.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. Chronic stress is one. People who are older are more likely to have chronic inflammation. It goes up with age. Also, our fat tissue sends out like pro inflammatory signals. So people who are fatter might have more inflammation. And air pollution can cause inflammation too, so.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, man.

[Verol Hord]

One paper estimated, based on this, like, common marker for inflammation called CRP, that about 35% of US adults have chronic inflammation. Wow. And then another study said that 70% of all deaths worldwide are caused by chronic inflammatory diseases. Wow. So it's coming for a lot of us.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, gosh. Wow, wow, Wow. I mean, I wasn't sure. Just cause there's so much talk about chronic inflammation. I really. I am a bit surprised by this, that scientists really do believe that this rumbling of chronic inflammation is truly the cause of quite a lot of our illnesses.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. Yeah. Or at least it's playing a role. For sure. I was surprised too.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Why were you surprised?

[Verol Hord]

I think it's just when people say that there is like one thing that can explain so much, I'm always just suspicious. There's no way that this like, one process is like responsible for all these different things.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right, Exactly.

[Verol Hord]

But it seems like there's actually a lot of evidence backing. Backing it up that this is this puppet master of health inside of our bodies.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay. Okay. So then the question becomes, how do we fix this? Can we fix it?

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. And a lot of people say that the key to lowering your inflammation is through diet, right?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Verol Hord]

And when I first started looking into this, one claim that I kept coming across was this idea that if you want to reduce your inflammation, you got to cut out stuff from your diet.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Verol Hord]

Like, one thing that surprised me was nightshades, which includes vegetables like eggplants, potatoes, also tomatoes. This surprised you?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This has been around for ages. Like, Gwyneth Paltrow was crapping on about how much she hated nightshades, but I guess I shouldn't say crapping on about it. Is there any science here? Why do people hate nightshades?

[Verol Hord]

I mean, there's always been this, like, lore around nightshades. Maybe one reason they're even called nightshades is that they're kind of dark, like they might have some kind of toxin in them that makes them bad for us. Yeah, Right. And, well, I mean, there are these chemicals in them that people think might be bad. So one of the big ones is called solanine. And researchers have tried, like, giving this to mice and have found that it did make their gut kind of messed up. And there's even a case study from the 70s of almost 80 school boys in England who had a bad batch of potatoes. And then a lot of them got really sick. And some researchers blamed that on the.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Solanine that's such a thing that would happen to schoolboys in England.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah, poor lads do.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

We ate the old potatoes. This was like a Charles Dickens story.

[Verol Hord]

So, like, yeah, there was those studies, but I felt like none of that was that convincing.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right. Yeah. I mean, the bad batch of potatoes, that could have been anything that caused those illnesses. And then you've got some studies advice, right?

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. No. 1 report from the University of California, San Francisco said that in People, quote, no research has shown that solanine has a direct effect on inflammation, unquote. So, yeah, there really does not seem to be any convincing evidence that cutting out nightshades can lower inflammation.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

You're not cutting eggplants out of your diet anytime soon.

[Verol Hord]

No, and actually, it's kind of the opposite because we know that eggplants and other vegetables have stuff that can actually lower inflammation, like nutrients called polyphenols.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Verol Hord]

And they also have fiber in them. And, you know, we covered this a few weeks ago. Fiber can lower your inflammation by keeping your microbes happy. So if you want to try cutting something out to lower inflammation, you probably don't want to cut out vegetables, but you could look at cutting out junk food. So, like, processed food, processed meat, that stuff does seem to be linked to higher inflammation. And then maybe also stuff like sugar and saturated fat, though the science there is a little more mixed.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, so nightshades back on the menu. Junk foods is still bad for us.

[Verol Hord]

What's up next after the break, an anti inflammatory diet that scientists are actually excited about. Whoa.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That's big. That's big.

[Verol Hord]

Plus, could exercise be causing chronic inflammation?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

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[Verol Hord]

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[Wendy Zuckerman]

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[Verol Hord]

And of course, I blast my favorite.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

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[Verol Hord]

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[Wendy Zuckerman]

Welcome back. Today we're talking about inflammation. Meryl has scared the S out of us, out of me, at least about our leaky brain barrier. How do you, how do you fix it? How do you lower your chronic inflammation? Avoiding processed foods might help. What else you got for us?

[Verol Hord]

Well, there are lots of foods that people say can help with inflammation, but the one that seems to be like really having a moment right now is turmeric.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Verol Hord]

And that's been used for thousands of years in South Asia as part of ayurvedic medicine. And it's thought to help with inflammation.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Seeing a lot on turmeric shots. Turmeric and this. Turmeric and that.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. It's a huge market now.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Verol Hord]

And researchers have been doing clinical trials like giving people a pill that has the stuff that's in turmeric and they'll check to see does it lower inflammatory markers in the blood.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Great.

[Verol Hord]

And a lot of these studies find that, yeah, it can actually do this.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Uh huh.

[Verol Hord]

But a lot of these are pretty small studies and it's inconsistent. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and we're not really sure why. Huh.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So what do you make of that? I mean, are you adding more turmeric to things now?

[Verol Hord]

I haven't been, no. I just feel like the science isn't solid enough yet.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Verol Hord]

But then like away from turmeric, as I've been talking to scientists, this one study just kept coming up again and again and again as like the study to look at when it comes to lowering inflammation.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Great.

[Verol Hord]

It's just clinical trial. So I talked to one of the researchers who's been running it.

[Caroline Menard]

My name is Rosa Casas. I'm an associate professor at the University of Barcelona.

[Verol Hord]

And so her study has been going on for like 20 years. It's actually one of the biggest randomized controlled trials on diet ever.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow.

[Verol Hord]

It's called the predimed study and it's on the Mediterranean diet.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So for years now, the Mediterranean diet has been in and out of headlines as this sort of magic diet in a way. Let's dive into it. What does it actually involve?

[Verol Hord]

All right, so here's like, a classic meal that you might eat if you're on this diet. Pasta with some nice sauce.

[Caroline Menard]

It's a sauce that is made with tomato, garlic, and onion, and you slowly simmer it with olive oil.

[Verol Hord]

Ooh, that sounds tasty.

[Caroline Menard]

It's very good and very healthy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Sofrito sounds delicious.

[Verol Hord]

Exactly. This actually got me kind of excited because I was like, oh, I would eat that.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Verol Hord]

Okay. So besides pasta and veggies, people were also encouraged to have stuff like fru. Beans, nuts, fish, and seafood. And one thing that's pretty great here is that people could eat as much of this stuff as they wanted. Like, they didn't have to count calories.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So that is the Mediterranean diet, then. Tell me about this amazing study.

[Verol Hord]

Okay, so they got over 7,000 people who are at least 55 years old, and they had a higher risk for heart disease. And if you were in the Mediterranean diet group, then you'd meet with a dietitian who would give you advice about how to incorporate all these foods into your diet. But then, just to make sure people really change their diets, the researchers also shipped food to them. So some people got nuts or olive oil, and the people who got olive oil were getting a liter of it a week.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

One liter a week?

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. Yeah. That was for the whole family.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

For the Von Trapp family. What?

[Verol Hord]

Yeah, you guys. I mean, I guess they wanted people to just go wild with this stuff, right? Like, drizzle a little on everything.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Okay, all right. It's expensive, but okay. And then if you were not in this group, what was the control?

[Verol Hord]

They were actually told to go on a low fat diet, but you weren't given any olive oil or push to eat these other Mediterranean diet specific, friendly foods by the dietitian.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

And so what did she find?

[Verol Hord]

Okay, so after all of this mailing of olive oil, you know, meal planning with the dietitian, here's what happened with their inflammation. So in this part of the study, Rosa looked at 164 people.

[Caroline Menard]

After one year, we observed reductions in inflammation because of the Mediterranean diet.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Mm.

[Verol Hord]

So, yeah, they saw less inflammation. That marker that a lot of researchers look at, CRP, was down by more than 40%.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow.

[Verol Hord]

Do you remember the moment you saw that this diet basically worked?

[Caroline Menard]

Yes, I remember the moment. And it was, wow, this very incredible.

[Verol Hord]

And this work has been replicated by other studies. So according to one meta analysis, going on, the Mediterranean diet really does work to reduce inflammation.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That's awesome. So what's it doing? Why? Why is it helping?

[Verol Hord]

Well, it seems like it is about the fact that it's a bunch of different foods kind of working together. Rosa says, forget this idea that there's like this one superfood that's the anti inflammatory one that everyone just needs to eat. It's the fact that, like, there's all these different foods that are kind of dialing down inflammation in our cells in all these different ways. So for example, if you're eating a lot of fish stuff like salmon, you'd be eating omega 3 fatty acids, and they might be reducing inflammation in a few different ways. So, for example, you have like a layer of fat surrounding all of your cells. And when you eat more omega 3s, they can literally get inserted into this fatty layer that's surrounding all your cells. And that will make it harder for your cells, for your immune cells to like, become inflammatory.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, that's cool.

[Verol Hord]

And then, of course, there's other things going on. Like a lot of the foods in this diet have fiber, which we talked about.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Verol Hord]

And then you're eating less junk food. And just by the way, I noticed that, you know how you see all these lists of top 5 anti inflammatory foods?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Of course, of course.

[Verol Hord]

Well, the stuff on the lists is like berries, chia seeds, fish, and it's basically all just either stuff that's on the Mediterranean diet or stuff that has a lot of fiber in it, or both.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Right. It's not the food on this. These lists, they don't have some magical anti inflammatory power.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah, basically. I mean, if anything, fiber is the magic. But then Rosa and her team wanted to find out, like, okay, we know that the Mediterranean diet lowers inflammation, but does this all actually lower your risk of getting diseases, like if you're on this diet for years?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, of course, of course. Inflammation is one thing, but you really want to just not be sick.

[Verol Hord]

One of the things they looked at that was to see whether this can help for heart disease, which is the number one killer of people in the U.S. right. And like we've said, that is linked to inflammation.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Verol Hord]

And they found that it helped to.

[Caroline Menard]

Follow a Mediterranean diet, reduce the cardiovascular disease by 30% in comparison with a low fat diet.

[Verol Hord]

Whoa.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

She said 30% lower.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. And other studies find this kind of thing too.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Nice.

[Verol Hord]

And then one more disease I want to tell you about, they looked at breast cancer. And in this case, the women in the Mediterranean diet group were a lot less likely to get breast cancer than the people in the control group. What's.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

What's that, that is, is that an inflammation story as well? Is it because it's lowering inflammation?

[Verol Hord]

Yeah, I mean, we, we do think that inflammation can help tumors grow. So, yeah, it just, it seemed like this diet was really helping people with a lot of stuff.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Well, this is very exciting. So there are, there is a thing you can do to lower your inflammation and it's to go on this diet that allows you to eat pasta and fry it with beautiful tomatoes.

[Verol Hord]

The frying part, it was like, you know, simmer it slowly with olive oil. I'm not a cook.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I don't know. You shove it on a pan. I don't understand the rest. So this is amazing. And I guess, I guess what is slightly annoying is for anyone who's really looking for a quick fix, as in, I'll just cut out eggplants from my diet or I'll just add this one thing and all of a sudden, boom, no more inflammation. That's really not how we should be thinking about it. It's really your whole diet, which is a bit annoying.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So then, speaking of other things that are annoying, exercise. So, so what's the story here? Because online, man, people have so many opinions about exercise and inflammation.

[Verol Hord]

Do it.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

It lowers your inflammation. Don't do it. It actually ramps up your inflammation.

[Verol Hord]

The thing that I kind of came across a lot was this idea that if you do a really high intensity workout, it's going to increase your inflammation. So you really have to kind of be careful not to go too hard.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yes. What's the science here?

[Verol Hord]

So you often do see this short term rise in inflammatory markers in the blood after people work out. I talked about this with Grace Rose. She's a lecturer at the University of the Sunshine coast in Australia. When you're exercising in general, you will always have. Because exercise is a stressor, you have.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

A sharp increase in inflammation.

[Verol Hord]

And we know that if you work out a ton, like if you work out excessively, it can kind of keep you in that high inflammatory state for longer.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Verol Hord]

If you do a triathlon, inflammation in your blood will still be really high, even 24 hours later. It seems like this is because really intense exercise can damage or just put a lot of stress on your muscles.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This is excellent, Meryl, because I never want to do a marathon. And so any extra reason as to why I don't do that? This episode is just getting better and better for me personally.

[Verol Hord]

So I found this one study where they got 10 marathon runners to agree to getting their calf muscles biopsied, like right after running A marathon.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Wow. Thank you.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. And they saw that their tissue was damaged. So, yeah, the idea is that that can spark this immune reaction. You know, you get muscle damage, your immune system is gonna, like, spring into action like it does whenever you have tissue damage.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

So when you do exercise, you do get this sort of sharp increase in inflammation. But then does that go down or does that. Does that actually lead to chronic inflammation?

[Verol Hord]

Well, we can find this out. Researchers have done a ton of experiments. Well, they'll have people do two different workouts. Some will do a more intense version of the thing, and other people will do an easier version of the workout. And then they'll look at their inflammation in their blood after they've kind of rested. And Grace has collected over 20 of these for a meta analysis where she could then see whether doing high intensity workouts is actually bad for you. What we've shown is that it does not matter if you're doing any intervention.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That'S lower or higher intensity exercise overall did not make a difference.

[Verol Hord]

And so for the people online who are saying you shouldn't exercise, especially don't do, like, HIIT workouts if you're worried about your chronic inflammation. Is that right?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

No, that's not right.

[Verol Hord]

So engaging in higher intensity exercise, like.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

HIIT workouts is really unlikely to increase your risk of, you know, chronic inflammation. In fact, it's more likely to reduce your risk of chronic inflammation than anything. Reduce your risk of chronic inflammation.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. We do actually have evidence that doing exercise either doesn't do anything to your chronic inflammation, or it might actually lower it. Even for the marathon runners.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I mean, that makes so much more sense. I mean, we know exercise is so good for us.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

For so many different things. Okay, so, Meryl, Wendy, what I have learned from this episode is that chronic inflammation is a problem that a lot of us have to think about, unfortunately. One more thing. Add it to the pile. And don't listen to people try to sell you quick fixes, whether it's a turmeric shot or someone telling you not to eat that tomato instead. You know what? Take that tomato, put it in a pan with some olive oil, simmer it. Whatever that is. No, simmer it and enjoy. Meryl, what are you gonna do differently as a result of this episode? You gonna cook up a sofrito?

[Verol Hord]

Yeah, no, I actually do just want to eat more veget. Like, while I was working on this episode, we were also working on the fiber episode. And so I feel like it's just like the universe is telling me to eat more Vegetables. Researchers also told me some other tips that I liked. Try to get enough sleep because sleep is linked to lower inflammation and also stress. You know, like those poor mice getting bullied. Like, you know, stress can cause inflammation. So lowering stress has also found to decrease inflammation in some cases. I talked about this with Caroline Menard.

[Caroline Menard]

I think it's really everybody can find their own recipe, find something to do that you like, like taking a long bath, going for a walk with your dog, something that's for you is very relaxing. Personally, I love to go to see heavy metal concert. I find it very relaxing and a good way to release anger. And I play video game because I get out of my head and I really focus on one task.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Oh, this is great. A prescription for Mario Kart from a scientist. Absolutely right. Thanks, Meryl.

[Verol Hord]

Thanks, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

That's science verses. So, Meryl, how many citations in this week's episode?

[Verol Hord]

We have 119 citations.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

119. And if people want to find these citations, learn more about anything that we talked about on the show, where should they go?

[Verol Hord]

Well, you can go to our show notes and then just follow the links to the transcript.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Excellent. And on Instagram this week, which is ScienceVS, what do we have for people?

[Verol Hord]

We will have, you know those photos of the blood brain barrier that Caroline took photos of and the mice, the.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

Eels kissing the eels. I mean, I would love it. If you guys, as you look at these photos, tell me what you see in this. Do you see the eels?

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. Are they eels?

[Wendy Zuckerman]

What are they? It's like it kind of looks like stars. You know, where you kind of find the pot and the whatever else is up in the stars. Anyway, tell us what you think.

[Verol Hord]

Yeah. Thanks so much, Meryl. Thanks, Wendy.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

This episode was produced by Meryl Horn with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman, along with Michelle Dang, Rose Rimler and Akedi Foster. Keys we're edited by Blythe Terrell Mix and sound design by Sam Baer. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Music written by Bobby Lord, Emma Munger. So Wiley, Bumi Hidaka and Peter Leonard. Thanks to all of the researchers that we spoke to for this episode, including Professor Susan Segerstrom, Professor Andre Nell, Dr. Hannah Mayer, Professor Xiaoping Li, Dr. Jennifer Felga, Professor Andreas Mikkelsen, Professor Charles Cerhan, Professor Heather Zwicky, Dr. Jian Tan and Professor Philip Calder. Science Versus is a Spotify Studio's original. Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you are listening on Spotify, then follow us and tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come out. And if you like the show, you like what you've heard, whatever app you are listening on, give us a five star review.

[Verol Hord]

Makes us feel happy. Thanks.

[Wendy Zuckerman]

I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.