Could Drake Maye's shoulder issue throw off New England's Super Bowl prep?

Summary

Scoop City: Inside The NFL

Episode: Could Drake Maye's shoulder issue throw off New England's Super Bowl prep?

Date: January 29, 2026
Host: The Athletic (James Palmer, Dianna Russini, Chase Daniel, et al.)

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the Super Bowl matchup between the Seattle Seahawks and the New England Patriots, examining the teams' improbable paths, key figures driving their success, and the latest concerns about Patriots QB Drake Maye's shoulder. Featuring on-the-ground reports and expert discussion, the hosts explore roster construction, offense vs. defensive trends in coaching, and critical game-planning details. They also reflect on NFL coaching hires, the impact of culture and leadership, and address Bill Belichick’s surprising Hall of Fame snub. Later, the show covers Mike McCarthy’s emotional return as Pittsburgh Steelers’ head coach and discusses shifting hiring philosophies around the league.

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Key Guests & Contributors

• James Palmer (Host)
• Dianna Russini (Host)
• Michael Shawn Dugar (Seahawks Reporter)
• Chad Graff (Patriots Reporter)
• Zach Kiefer (NFL Insider)
• Mike DeFebo (Steelers Reporter)

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Main Segments & Discussion Points

1. Seattle's Super Bowl Run: The John Schneider & Mike Macdonald Blueprint

[03:25–07:32]

• Building the Roster:

  • Michael Shawn Dugar attributes the Seahawks’ Super Bowl run mostly to GM John Schneider, who “set the vision” and was aggressive in his moves, with Mike Macdonald as his targeted head coach.
  • “John would get the biggest slice of that pie.” — Michael Shawn Dugar [03:25]

• Identifying Turning Points:

  • Dugar describes a gradual confidence in the team as Sam Darnold and the run game gained cohesion late in the season. Jaxon Smith-Njigba’s emergence as a star WR was pivotal.
  • “I knew the Seahawks had that when I saw it in week 18… they’re playing championship ball.” — Dugar [06:58]

• Importance of Physicality:

  • Both Super Bowl teams got here by “holding the ball” and outlasting their opponents with game-sealing drives.
  • Notably, the Seahawks and Patriots each had critical, long fourth-quarter drives preventing comebacks.

2. Patriots Vulnerabilities & Maye’s Health

[07:32–14:44, 20:14–23:35]

• Pass Protection Issues:

  • The Patriots’ left-side O-line struggles are ripe for Seattle’s creative pass rush, which mixes up stunts and pressures. Dugar draws parallels to the Chargers’ and Baltimore’s schematic attacks.
  • “This is going to be just as hard a test as Drake has had in the postseason. And he struggled to get to this point.” — Dugar [09:59]

• Deep Ball Matchup:

  • Both teams excel at deep shots; Sam Darnold and Jaxon Smith-Njigba have a slight edge due to their elite chemistry this year.
  • “For my money, Jaxon and Sam was just nails… no one can cover Jaxon Smith-Njigba.” — Dugar [11:15]

• Maye’s Playoff Struggles & Shoulder Worries:

  • Chad Graff highlights Maye’s “pedestrian” playoff stats but contextualizes them with the quality of opposing defenses and adverse weather.
  • Maye is “limited” in practice with a sore throwing shoulder. Graff tempers major concern unless it persists into Super Bowl week but notes prep could be affected.
  • “I think alarm bells start to go off… if he’s limited next week.” — Graff [22:09]

• Need for Explosives:

  • The Patriots’ offense “lives and dies on explosive plays,” not methodical drives. Hitting the deep ball is paramount, especially with Maye’s possible limitations.

3. Matchups to Watch: Defense & Gameplanning

[14:44–18:35, 25:11–28:26]

• Seahawks Run Defense:

  • Seattle’s interior “spine” (Witherspoon, Jones, Williams) is a strength. They’ve stopped top RBs all year and haven’t allowed a 100-yard rusher since 2024.
  • “That spine is how you get your toughness… that’s what the Seahawks have.” — Dugar [16:24]

• Patriots Defensive Adjustments:

  • Discussion on whether Christian Gonzalez will shadow Seattle’s JSN, noting Vrabel hasn’t used shadow coverage as often as Belichick did. The possibility of changing up looks for the Super Bowl is raised.

• Where Patriots Have the Edge:

  • Graff favors their interior pass rush (Milton Williams, Christian Barmore) against a “slightly weak” Seahawks O-line inside, citing Darnold’s struggles with pressure.
  • “If we’re looking for a recipe for the Patriots to win, we’re going to need to see a lot of interior pressure…” — Graff [29:24]

4. Coaching Trends, Team Building, and Defensive Resurgence

[38:11–52:08]

• Front Office Lessons & Counterculture Hires:

  • Zach Kiefer explores how Seattle “bucked the trend” by hiring a defensive disruptor (Macdonald) instead of chasing offensive brilliance.
  • “He found someone that was better or as good as them on the other side of the ball…” — Kiefer [38:58]

• Macro Team Building:

  • Emphasis on teams targeting their specific “number one guy” in hiring coaches (Giants with Harbaugh, Patriots with Vrabel, Seahawks with Macdonald).
  • Discussion of Ravens’ seamless move to Jesse Minter as a possible “next McDonald.”

• The Head Coach as the Modern Franchise Pillar:

  • “I’m tempted to go head coach here…” — Kiefer [50:04]
  • Head coach seen as the central cog, able to bind owners, GMs, quarterbacks; importance of the CEO-type leader.

5. Bill Belichick’s Hall of Fame Snub & Foxborough Sentiment

[31:17–33:29]

• Local Reaction:
  • Chad Graff calls Belichick’s omission “laughable,” while noting the awkward optics if Kraft is inducted first.
  • “This has a chance to be like a really bad stretch for Belichick… if the Patriots win the Super Bowl, Tom Brady left without him, won a Super Bowl, [and Kraft replaces him and] gets into the Super Bowl…” — Graff [32:41]

6. Steelers’ New Era: Mike McCarthy’s Homecoming & Quarterback Questions

[56:12–64:45]

• Emotional Return:

  • Mike McCarthy is “already emotional” about coming home, with a hometown crowd and deep neighborhood roots.
  • “To put on the colors you’ve been wearing since you were taken home from the hospital… it hits different.” — Mike DeFebo [56:46]

• Steelers’ Shift in Hiring Philosophy:

  • Breaking tradition: older, offense-minded coach selected to develop the next QB, a direct response to years of instability post-Roethlisberger.
  • “They went with experience and a guy who’s developed quarterbacks. They felt like that outweighed every other factor.” — DeFebo [61:52]

• Staff and Roster Outlook:

  • McCarthy’s key priority is hiring a strong DC (Patrick Graham gets an in-depth mention), mirroring successful head coach–DC combos elsewhere in the league.
  • There’s lingering excitement for QB Will Howard (pronounced “Hired” in local dialect), but the team is angling for a long-term franchise solution—possibly even targeting Aaron Rodgers or a big move in 2027.

7. Super Bowl Coaching Narrative: Defensive-Minded Leadership

[44:33–52:08]

• Vrabel & Macdonald as Team CEOs:
  • Both imprint their message throughout their buildings, connect strongly with players, and oversee the “entire program” beyond just the Xs and Os.
  • Vrabel praised for his ability to get players to “not want to let him down.”
• Defensive Coaching Renaissance:
  • First defensive HC vs. defensive HC matchup since Falcons–Patriots in 2017.
  • Panel discusses how the pendulum might be swinging back toward defensive “disruptors” rather than automatically chasing the next “young offensive genius.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Seahawks’ Roster Build:

  • “He [Schneider] set the vision for what this team wanted to be...” — Michael Shawn Dugar [03:25]

• On Drake Maye’s Limitations:

  • “There was a really vulnerable moment…he’s on the sideline…frustrated, it’s snowing, his shoulder hurts…‘good God, this is hard.’” — Chad Graff [21:16]

• On Macdonald’s Disruption:

  • “Instead of finding Shanahan Jr. or Sean McVay Jr...they found someone that’s better or as good as them on the other side of the ball...” — Zach Kiefer [38:58]

• On Bill Belichick’s HOF Snub:

  • “So two things. One is the total laughable nature of Bill Belichick not being a Hall of Famer.” — Chad Graff [31:17]

• On Vrabel’s Leadership:

  • “The secret sauce to what Mike Vrabel does is that throwback ability to connect with his big guys.” — Kiefer [46:09]

• On Coach as Central Pillar:

  • “I’m almost tempted to go away from quarterback here and go head coach…Coaching in football matters like never before.” — Zach Kiefer [50:04]

• On McCarthy’s Steelers Introduction:

  • “To put on the colors you’ve been wearing since you were taken home…you feel comfortable in it. It hits different.” — Mike DeFebo quoting McCarthy [56:46]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Seattle’s Super Bowl Path: [03:25–07:32]
• How Patriots got here & Maye’s playoff journey: [18:53–23:35]
• Maye’s shoulder concern detail: [20:14–23:35]
• Seahawks run defense & Patriots RB matchup: [14:44–18:35]
• Scheme discussion: Patriots D vs. JSN: [25:52–28:26]
• Coaching Cycle & Defensive Renaissance: [38:11–52:08]
• Belichick HOF snub & Foxborough mood: [31:17–33:29]
• Mike McCarthy’s Steelers intro & QB plan: [56:12–64:45]

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Takeaways for NFL Fans

• The Super Bowl narrative centers on two teams built unconventionally: Seahawks by doubling down on defensive disruption, Patriots thriving through culture and a coach-QB tandem.
• Both teams face questions in the trenches: Seattle’s O-line vs. Patriots’ interior rush, and New England’s pass protection vs. Macdonald’s complex schemes.
• Drake Maye’s health and ability to hit deep plays loom large for New England.
• The NFL coaching cycle may be shifting back to valuing defensive innovators and true program CEOs over the next upstart offensive mind.
• Pittsburgh’s coaching hire represents both emotional homecoming and a conscious organizational shift to solve long-term QB issues with experience over youth.

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If you missed the episode, this summary gives you all the critical insights, trends, and insider views—prepping you for the Super Bowl and beyond.

Transcript

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[Mike DeFebo]

My caffeine intake is unhealthy. Yeah, I wish it wasn't, but it really is. Like it's usually double espresso in the morning, like latte. Then I have at Steelers. I usually get there and immediately have a coffee. Then we have lunch and I have a coffee. Then I come home at 3 o' clock and have another single shot of espresso.

[James Palmer]

So man, Daddy, let's go. Oh. Welcome to another Thursday edition of Scoop City. You know what that means. It's our Thursday road trip. There's only two teams remaining, but we'll make multiple stops. Don't forget to like and subscribe because the information right here has been outstanding of late and it continues to come your way. We're going to break down both sides of the Super Bowl. We're going to talk to Michael Shawn Dugar in Seattle. We're going to talk to Chad Graff with the New England Patriots. We're also going to talk about both of these head coaches, defensive head coaches. What trend did that show? Our own Zach Kiefer. He wrote a brilliant article in the Athletic about it. Him and I will discuss a bunch of what's going on with the coaching cycle and what trends we're seeing from some of these teams hiring new coaches and the ones that will be hiring ones possibly next year, as well as Mike McCarthy, who was hired this year back in his hometown of Pittsburgh. Mike defebo is going to break that down brilliantly. He was there for the press conference. He tells us how many family members were actually even there for Mike McCarthy. It's more than you think. But it is a Thursday road trip, so let's hit the road and let's get to both of these super bowl teams. All right, once again on our Thursday road trip around the NFL. He's been a regular on here, Michael. Shawn Dugard joins us. And Mike, this was proposed to me by some other people around the league and I was kind of curious what your take is. Who is most responsible for the Seattle Seahawks being in this Super Bowl 60 game?

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

Ooh, that's a fun one, right? I guess if I had to make a pie chart, you know, go back to elementary school or whenever we learned to do pie charts, John Schneider would probably have the biggest slice of pie. You know, he hired Mike McDonald. You know, he was really set on hiring Mike. Like he. That was his number one. So he wanted to hire Mike. He gave him the roster to get this done. You know, he got the ball rolling on a lot of the big moves that got the roster the way it is, you know, with some missteps along the way, as GMs tend to have. But I mean, as soon as we're done recording this, I'm going to finish an article on how this roster was built. And a lot of them are risks that Jon was able to take, moves that Jon was willing to make in collaboration with his guys and collaboration with the coaching staff. But he set the vision for what this wanted to what they wanted this team to be, what they wanted the team to look like, what they wanted the environment to feel like. And yeah, a lot of that's to John. Now he doesn't. It's not like 80% John, 20% everyone else very much Mike McDonald. And it's a player driven league. So you got to give credit to the players and Jody Allen writes the checks. But yeah, I think Jon would get the biggest slice of that pie for whether Seahawks were in Super Bowl 60.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, he's done an outstanding job with that said and all the pieces. And as you're putting this piece together and make sure everybody goes the athletic and checks it out. When did you start getting the sense in all of the levers that maybe John was pulling and then Mike was doing as well, putting this together, that you were kind of steadfast going, okay, this is a Super bowl team. When did that happen for you, Mike?

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

It was very. It was gradual. Right. So the first thing I was looking at was Sam. Okay, how does Sam look? But the problem is no one doubts that Sam can play well in September, October, November, and maybe the first couple weeks of December. So it was only so much I was going to glean from him, lighting it up in camp or even playing well the first couple months of the season. So I was like, okay, what else can I look at? Well, let's start with Jax. Can he be the wide receiver? One guy that I've seen DKB for so long, and then I saw Tyler and Doug Baldwin kind of assume that role. Can. Can that be Jax? Well, by the time I flew home from Green Bay and joint practice in August, I was like, yeah, okay, no one can cover that guy. Like, I felt very confident that they could. Jax is the guy. No one can cover him. I felt very good about that. So then, all right, now I need to evaluate Sam and Clint Kubiak. Those are the new pieces around here, you know, because I was not one to believe. All right, you just run wide zone. All of a sudden you're a physical team. A bunch of people run wide zone. It's not the magical elixir that gives you a physical, dominant run game. And that took some time for that to build. So in the defense, I was always confident and I was never worried about that. So by the time we get to, I want to say December ish, and the run game starting to click, you know, I think they can ran for 100 yards in week 16. Sam Darnold started to calm down a little bit late, late, late in the year into January. So that's probably, probably when they had that overtime win against the Rams. When I was like, okay, Sam can do this. He's not seeing ghosts. He's just a normal quarterb may make mistakes. Then the next like four weeks, they ran the ball. Well said. Okay, now I see why people want to hire this Kubiak guy. Now I see why everyone wants the wide zone principal thing. And then I think in week 18, it was. They had like an eight minute drive or something like that to basically salt the game away down at Levi's Stadium. I said, okay, these guys are playing championship ball because I'm one of those people that believes Those are the grown man drives in the NFL. Like, yes, the, the great highlight reel. I threw a game winning catch or whatever play. Those are great. Those are, those are fantast. But what the Seahawks did in the NFC championship is what I knew they would have to do at some point, which is why I was so critical of the run game. Can you just hold the ball sometimes? That's it. Look how the two teams who got here, James, look how they got here, the Patriots and the Seahawks, they both held the ball from the other team and got first downs and the game was over. Sometimes it's not a game winning kick or a game winning touchdown pass or whatever. Sometimes you just gotta be able to hold the ball and that's, that's the level of physicality and clutchness required. And I knew the Seahawks had that when I saw it in week 18 and so it's no surprise that they were able to deliver that to get here.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, great point that, that 9 minute 31 second drive by the Patriots in the second half, that only goes 65 yards. But with that drive, they wear out a very, very good defense. The weather turns during that drive and the whole game essentially turns because they held the ball at the start of the second half. You're exactly right with, with that offense I just mentioned with, with New England. The left side of that offensive line has certainly had some of their struggles this season at guard and at tackle with Will Campbell. So my question to you, Mike, is the pressure rate has been very good, consistent, one of the best in football for Seattle and they haven't had to bring a whole lot of extra guys for it. Is this a spot that you see them prodding at the way that you saw Houston do it in the way that you saw Denver do it, to where there's a focus there up front?

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

Yeah, absolutely. I would even add the Chargers to that as well because Jesse minter and Mike McDonald are friends and they run a very similar scheme. If there's any postseason performance that is most applicable to analyzing this game, it would be that Chargers defense, which comes from this fruit from the same tree. Jesse's a Michigan guy, Baltimore guy. Like they, they're all running the same thing. So in the way those guys got after him. Chargers, they didn't lose that game because their defense couldn't get to Drake Mays because Justin couldn't move the ball. So yeah, that's the weak spot of this Patriots team. You know, I think Drake's really good. I'm actually higher than the receivers more than some People would be just because I see the plays that they make. And if you need any evidence, go look at the three touchdown catch from the Houston game in the playoffs. Those are big boy catches on an island with elite defensive backs. And Booty and Douglas and Diggs all just delivered in the red zone. Very clutch plays, but you got to be able to have time to get the ball to those guys. And Drake has not had that. Taken a bunch of sacks in the postseason. He took a bunch of sacks in the regular season. So it's not as if these are outlier statistics that we've seen in the three game sample. And like you mentioned, the Seahawks front is just as good as every front Drake has played. Just as good as that Chargers front, just as good as that Houston front, just as good as that Denver front. But why bring up the Chargers more? As I think they and the Seahawks get at the quarterback a different way. Whereas d' Ameco Ryes can just say, hey, Will Anderson, hey, Daniel Hunter, just go beat your guy.

[James Palmer]

Speed, power, bro. Go.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

Yeah, yeah, we'll get it. You do the spin move, you do the power move. You guys meet at the quarterback. Ready, break. Whereas the Chargers, you know, mix it up a little bit more, Denver can do the same thing as Houston. Hey, Nick. Hey, Coop.

[Zach Kiefer]

Go.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

Just go meet at the quarterback. You know, Seahawks mix it up and it makes it harder to prepare for as well, who's looping, who's coming, who's stunting, who's just getting a straight bull rush. So, yeah, this is going to be just as hard a test as Drake has had in the postseason. And he struggled to get to this point as well. So I expect more of the same, even with a couple of weeks to prepare.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, 15 sacks in these three games. I think the only one that's been sacked more is Joe Burrow during his super bowl run. I think he was at 19, so who knows? You know, Seattle could, could, could help Drake past that Joe Burrow record. You mentioned the deep ball with, with Booty and Pop and these guys. I want to mention that from both sides and I want your are the two best really deep ball throwers statistically in football this season with, with the way Sam has thrown the football. And I think what completing 52% of his deep ball passes. May's right behind him at, you know, 52.1 and he's at 52.3. Who do you think has the advantage in maybe taking some of these shots? We know May has a, a great touch and a great chemistry with Some of those guys, and they've relied on it a lot. And we know what Sam and. And Jax, as you mentioned, have done. Who do you think has the advantage and maybe taking advantage of a couple of explosive plays, which could be key considering both these defenses are playing really, really, really well right now.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

Yeah, this is on. This is dang near a push, but I'll give this slight nod to Sam because he's. Of the weapons being thrown to Jax, is by far and away the best pass catcher in this game. Like, no knock to booty, who for some reason is the only guy who can catch a deep ball on Derek Stingley, which is crazy. He just does it to him every year when no one else can. Yeah. So. But.

[James Palmer]

And they'll go corners like they didn't avoid. Certain they didn't voice Sting like they will go after your corners.

[Mike DeFebo]

Yeah.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

And they're really, like I said, they're a really good unit. I'm really high on on them. Matt Collins makes, like, clutch catches every time I watch their tape. Diggs is real clutch. You know, I loved his response from. I think after the Houston game, he got asked, how'd you make that catch, the touchdown catch? And he looked at the reporters and said, with my hands. Great, great, great. Come on, man. Love, love that very Kawhi Leonard, Greg Popovichy type of answer. But what Jax and Sam have had this year is just special. It was the best connection in the league. You know, Stafford and Puka was good as well. If someone wants to make that case, that's fine. But for me, for my money, Jackson, Sam was just nails. Whether they're going deep, whether they're going to the middle of the field, whether they're going underneath. Jax is a great yak guy. I just think that what Sam and Jackson have done this year in combination with how Clint has been dialing it up, it's just special. And then we saw in the conference championship that if you get caught sleeping or worry too much about Jax, well, they have another guy on the outside who runs like 4:3 who can take it to the house from anywhere as well. And Rashid Shahid. So it's a very close. It's a great question. I would give the slight nod because we've seen this year no one can cover Jackson Smith in Jigba.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, very true. I just want to point out, was it an outlier what happened in the championship game with the way Stafford was able to go downfield, or what did you see when you broke that game down about how they were Able to be successful. It was like 223 yards in terms of the defense. Deep, deep stuff. What happened in, in the, in the, the NFC Championship game.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

Like, you know what, James, let me pull up a stat here that I looked this up the other day. So against, against the rams this year, three game sample, the Seahawks are allowing 28 points per game. 28 and some change against everyone else. They're allowing 15 points per game. So yes, it's very clear that the Rams games are an aberration or outliers, whatever words you want to use, that there's something about the combination of Matthew Stafford, Shaman Gaway, Puka Nukua and that offensive line that allows Stafford to just operate. I'm sure the Rams are just kicking themselves that they got the performances they did out of Stafford against the number one defense on the road twice and lost by one possession both times in part because they lost the special teams battle in each of those games. So yeah, I think the NFC Championship game is not very instructive. I'm sure Patriots fans will probably like it to be over the next couple weeks. I don't think it is. There's only been two teams to score more than 22 points against the Seahawks. The Bucks in Week 5 and then the Rams twice. And I think if the Bucks were to play the Seahawks tomorrow, they would not score 22. I gotta feel very confident about that. So, yeah, it's a complete outlier. I believe the data says it. The tape says it. Stafford is just a different beast because they've played other teams that have quarterbacks who can sling it down the field and they just haven't. Puka is the only number one receiver that they played who actually operated at his normal average or higher against the Seahawks. Go look at every other number one receiver. When they played the Seahawks, they didn't do what they normally do. Puka did that and beyond. So I think that what they did against the Seahawks is an outlier and cannot really be applied to analyzing what's going to happen in the Super Bowl.

[James Palmer]

Got him. Okay. That makes the off season probably even more difficult for Matthew Stafford to incompetent right now that they're not in this game.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

You can't play much better than Stafford did in those two.

[James Palmer]

He was so good.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

No turnovers, one sack.

[Zach Kiefer]

It's.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

He had one sack in three games against the number one defense. No turnovers, a bunch of touchdowns on the road twice. I mean, you can't ask for much more than a guy age 37 and probably one of the toughest road environments in the league. Two night games in Seattle. I mean, I almost feel bad for him, you know, I still want to go to the super bowl, but I almost feel bad for a guy playing that well. And you can't win because your team gives up a punt return on one game and then your guy just bobbles one, you know, until you lose special teams twice.

[James Palmer]

Hey, all three phases, man. That's what Seattle's done all year. You know, that's a big part. All right, before we go, this was an interesting one that I had been in that Broncos locker room this past week leading into that game, and the respect that that group kind of had for Ramondre Stevenson, not just in terms of running the football between the tackles. They think he's a better back than maybe a lot of other people, maybe around the league think. And he's been on a bit of a run here the last several, several weeks, as opposed to the earlier part of the season. But was pointed out to me was how good him and Travion Henderson are at noticing what you're doing defensively, where the pressure is coming from, where you're dropping your linebackers and getting into the progression very quickly and filling that middle, intermediate kind of area in a little bit of the pass game. I see that being a spot that wouldn't bother Seattle. I'm not entirely sure what you think, but in terms of where they are in the middle of the field, the running back kind of match up there, not just running the ball, but catching the ball, how do you see that in terms of how Seattle defends that much? Like.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

Yeah, I mean, that plays into Seattle's strength, though. I think their front seven has multiple all pro players on it. Like if you count Devin Witherspoon basically is playing a nickel. You got him. Second team all Pro. Ernest Jones, inside linebacker, second team all Pro. Leonard Williams, second team all pro. So you talk about the spine of the team, which kind of gets lost in roster construction. We focus on edge, corner, that spine, the safeties, nickels, interior, defensive linemen. That spine is how you get your toughness. Like those guys on the edges will get paid on the perimeter as well. They make the splash plays, but the guys in the spine make the tough plays. And that's what the Seahawks have. You know, they have Nicki Minwori as well, playing nickel. He can guard. He had back to back plays in the conference championship. Ronnie Rivers out route pbu. Puka, Nakua out route pbu. You know, like he can guard whoever. If you put them near the line. And I think the Seahawks will probably say this week and next week as well. When you talk about whether in the run game or in the past game, stopping running backs and then go look at their numbers against Bajan Robinson, Jonathan Taylor, Christian McCaffrey, like they have. They, they played some very good running backs this year and held them to some pretty pedestrian outings relative to what we've seen those guys be able to do this year. Very similar to what I said about number one receivers and their numbers being lower against Seattle. Go look at Christian. Go look at Bajan. Go look at jt. Their numbers were not all pro caliber when they had good games, but they were not all pro caliber when they played the Seahawks. And there's other backs on that list as well. So I'm high on Ramandre. I thought Trevion Henderson was a great pick. He's very explosive. But the Seahawks have played a bunch of explosive backs and the reason they're here is because they were able to hold those guys in check.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, I haven't allowed 100 yard rusher this season. Right. One of two teams that can say that. I think them in Jacksonville, I want to say is maybe the other one.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

They haven't allowed 100 yard rusher since last year against Buffalo. I believe like week eight.

[James Palmer]

Step further. Okay. Season.

[Zach Kiefer]

It's been a while.

[James Palmer]

That's been a while. Awesome, man, Mike. Awesome stuff as always. Appreciate it. Make sure everybody goes to the athletic reads everything that Mike is putting up between now and Super Bowl Sunday because it's going to be a lot and it's going to be outstanding. Appreciate it, man. I know you're on dad duty as well, so thank you for taking the time and joining Scoop City brother.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

Oh, yeah. Anytime for you guys. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, appreciate it. All right, moving on. On our Thursday Scoop City road trip, it has been Chad Graff has joined us a million times on this show and it's been because the Patriots have been red hot. They've been worth talking about, Chad. And now they're in the Super Bowl.

[Michael Shawn Dugar]

Bowl.

[James Palmer]

I want to start with how we got here. Michael. Shawn Dugar on the show today asking him how who is essentially the centerpiece of how the Seahawks got here. He had an answer. I will ask you who is the centerpiece of why the Patriots are in the Super Bowl.

[Chad Graff]

I'm going to duck your question and say that you can't pick one. It is Two people have driven this off the way, which is Mike Vrabel and Drake May, like this has been a tandem in terms of the Patriots have gone into a lot of games where they did not have the better roster. And including in this Super Bowl, I think you would take two through 53 of the other team. But with Drake May playing like an MVP with Mike Vrabel totally flipping the culture, it has been those two guys elevating a roster that I don't think you would look at and say, oh, these guys should be in the Super Bowl.

[Mark Bittman]

This.

[Zach Kiefer]

Yeah.

[Chad Graff]

How are we going to get around this O line and this. This edge rusher? How are we going to scheme around that? They don't have that. What they have is a culture of belief with Mike Rabel and a quarterback who is playing better than any other quarterback in the NFL. At least in the regular season. We can discuss what has happened in the postseason, but it has been those two throughout.

[James Palmer]

Okay. Okay. I believe he's going to go with John Schneider as put all of it together for.

[Chad Graff]

He's going to follow the instructions and pick one person.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, he did. Some people follow the rules. You mentioned Drake May in the postseason. We have to start there. One health. Everybody was like the shoulder. Tell me how that is. Because they're going through practices in Foxborough now and then two. Obviously the defenses play a part and who he's gone against with with the Chargers and with the Texans and with the Broncos, a couple of the best in football and then Seattle is right there with them. Are we going to see. Are we worried we're going to see the same or what has happened in the playoffs that maybe makes Patriots fans nervous that this isn't what we saw at an MVP level like you mentioned during the regular season. How do we get that MVP Drake May to play in the Super Bowl? Yeah.

[Chad Graff]

Drake May's statistics in the playoffs, totally pedestrian. Not what we saw from his MVP level regular season, but also worth noting. This run of defenses he's fade is insane. If he wins the super bowl, if the Patriots go on to win next weekend, he will be the first quarterback ever to beat four top 10 defenses based on scoring defense on the road to a Super Bowl.

[Zach Kiefer]

So.

[Chad Graff]

So started with the Chargers, really good defense with Jesse Minter onto the Texans who are either one or two with the Seahawks, depending on how you look at it. That Broncos defense, unbelievable. There was a really vulnerable moment captured by the team and the mic'd up videos when he's on the sideline with Josh McDaniels and he's frustrated and snowing and his shoulder hurts and all this is going on and the defense has given him nothing and he's like good God, this is hard just admitting that. Which is so I loved it open. It was refreshing. It kind of revealed this is a 23 year old at heart. Like yes, he has been mature and he has done all of these things. He's a 23 year old who's never played 21 games in a season before as he will this year, who has never like gone on a run like this. This is different for him. And so this Stevens is going to be so, so, so hard against the Seahawks. And that's why injury is part of the discussion. Drake May was limited on the Wednesday injury report with this right throwing shoulder injury. And so I don't think this is something that's going to affect him next week even and certainly not in the game. But I wouldn't be surprising if he's limited all this week leading into the trip out to San Francisco. So I don't think that really impacts his preparation too much. But if he's limited next week, all of a sudden I think alarm bells start to go off and you start to have some concern.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, we know next week there's only one person that gets to watch the practice and that's the pool reporter and so fewer eyes and we'll all be read reading that report. And it is interesting though the limited of this week though, right Chad, Because a lot of teams, vast majority over the years and all the Super Bowls I've covered is install everything you can while you're still at your home stadium at your home facility. Fine tune it tinker when you're in that week of the Super Bowl. So I know there's a lot that teams want to accomplish and if your quarterback's limited in some capacity could impact some things. Some teams like to go full pads during that week for a day. We'll see a way Mike Vrabel approaches it. You mentioned the shoulder and we're looking at it and we know that Drake has one of the best deep balls in all of football. It's, it's the touch that I've always told and the chemistry that he has with these guys. How important are explosive plays for the, for the Patriots to be able to come away with with a win in this one? It almost seems paramount that they, they have to get a couple to be against this defense to, to have a shot.

[Chad Graff]

It's totally how the Patriots are built. They have to be able to hit the deep ball and have to have explosives like this is not the kind of offense that, you know, we kind of saw from the Rams and against the Seahawks where they were going on those longer drives and hitting Nukua for seven yards and like slowly, more methodically moving the ball down the field. The Patriots live with explosives. They will try trick plays. They would. They hit the flea flicker to Mack Holland that we saw in the AFC championship game, which was one of the only kind of like touch passes that Drake May threw deep downfield. And so rewatching that game, thinking about his injury and some of this may have been the snow, the weather, the wind, whatever, but the place where he had to like drive the ball on a seven yard, you know, hitch route or something, those are the ones that he kind of struggled in when he needed a little bit of touch going over the top on the flea flicker to Matt Collins. That was a perfectly thrown ball. And so I wonder, maybe it was the snow, maybe it was other things, but I wonder if that's where the shoulder injury may have showed up is on like really fighting through the wind on a line drive pass. We will see. But. But that would be a good thing, I think, for the Patriots because they have to, have to, have to have Drake being able to throw and hit that deep ball. Kshaan Booty's been their deep threat wide receiver. They've ranked top five in explosives all throughout the season. Even their running game has been a little bit boom or bust. We've seen Travion Henderson. He's like the epitome of a boomer bust running back. It seems like it's either 55 yards and a touchdown or zero yards. Part of why he hasn't played as much in the playoffs. So the Patriots offense lives and dies on explosive plays. They have to hit them against the Seahawks.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, I think we should make a bigger point. In all honesty. I know it sounds weird, a bigger point of the weather, but two of these playoff games were played in very difficult conditions for Drake. May and throwing the football. That game against Houston, in that game against Denver, Christian Gonzalez. I was talking to somebody the other day and they were just like, this is really good, man. Like, this is a really good corner. Do you think, think there's a. There's a manner in which they. They follow jsn. I mean, he has a larger share of what they do in the passing offense than anybody else in football. I mean, he is the guy. And Clay Kubiak will move him around even into the running back spot. He'll go everywhere to try to find matchups how do you think they slow him down and how does Christian Gonzales play into that?

[Chad Graff]

Yeah, this is an interesting matchup because this is a little bit different than the Belichick Patriots where the Belichick Patriots would take their best corner. We think of Gilmore at the end and just we are going to travel and we are going to shut this guy down. We're going to take away your best receiver and make you beat us left handed. I kind of thought the Patriots would do that. If you think back to when they signed Carlton Davis, kind of another good man to man corner, Mike Vrabel stood up and said, hey, we're going to play cat defense. As in, you got that cat, you got that cat. Let's go play defense. They haven't really done that a ton this season. It's been sort of league average, man to man rate. They've played a lot more zone and they've been hesitant to take Christian Gonzalez and just have him travel around. Mike Vrabel talked about it in terms of, you know, we don't want him necessarily getting into the slot because that can change up a bunch of other things. So they've been hesitant to do it, but if there's a team you do it against, it's probably the Seahawks. And so that is going to be like one of those interesting first quarter tells that. I think as Kubiak is trying to figure out what's going on on the other sideline. I think we'll probably see JSN move around so that they can get a tell in those first two drives. Like, hey, is Christian Gonzalez following him around everywhere or are you they playing more as they've done all regular season? Of course, you know, these Patriots are different, but what made the Patriots such a good super bowl team under Belichick was they were willing to throw out everything that they did in the regular season. Think back to that rams Super Bowl, McVeigh's first one. They were a man team. All they did was play man defense all year long. They get to that super bowl and they're like, oh, Sean McVeigh will carve us if we play man defense. Switch to his own defense in two weeks, flip everything that they do. That's what made them successful. And now I'm curious what Mike Vrabel's staff does with that.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, I think that's a great point and the thing that everybody needs to remember and I've always talked to defensive coordinators and so few guys are actually shadow guys in the NFL these days. I think Pat Surtan kind of does it, but very few guys do it. It's not just the guy that's shadowing needs to know everything. Everybody else in the secondary then has to move. If you move into the slot with somebody or you move here, everybody else now has to play a different thing. So it's not just your top corner having to play those different areas of the field. It's everybody else adjusting on their secondary as well. But we'll see how Mike Froebel and company kind of handle it. I think it's going to be fascinating. That cat and mouse game, I think to me is the one to watch. That's going to be a lot of fun. Where do you think the Patriots have the edge? Because a lot of people say that Seattle is the most complete team in football. So which part are you looking at going, that's an advantage for New England.

[Chad Graff]

I agree that the Seahawks are the most complete team in football. And again, like so many other Patriots matchups, if you're looking at the roster and ranking one through 53, I think you take two through 52 from the Seahawks. But I think Drake May is probably number one in this now. If there's a spot that I'm really intrigued because I think that the Patriots can have an advantage, it is surprisingly on a spot on the defensive side of the ball. Their defense has played so, so well the last five weeks and yes, there are some caveats. That includes the jets, the Dolphins as they were halfway to Cancun, the Texans with CJ Stroud playing terribly, Jarrett Stidham in the snow. Yes, normal caveats. But the defense has had their best five game stretch since 2019 with Belichick and that defense was humming. So that puts into perspective just how good they've been and where they can, I think, take advantage of the Seahawks is the Seahawks have done a lot to improve their offensive line. You think back to like three, four years ago, it was, oh, this offensive line is going to hold them back. Now. They're solid. It's similar to the progress that the Patriots have made, but I think they're a little bit weak in the interior. And if there's a spot that the Patriots are good, it is in their interior pass rush. They don't have Max Crosby, Myles Garrett on the edge, but they have Milton Williams playing really well at defensive tackle, Christian Barmore playing really well next to him. They've developed some depth with Durden and Tonga behind them. And so it would not surprise me if we're looking at a recipe for the Patriots to win, I think we're going to need to see a lot of interior pressure from Milton Williams, who obviously who played very well in the super bowl last year, and Christian Bar more kind of getting that interior disruption from Sam Darnold. And to take it one step further, we've seen Darnold struggle with that. Like, think about what the Vikings did last offseason, last March, they spent so much money to improve the interior of their offensive line because they just watched that fall apart with Darnold at the end of their regular season. We've seen Darnold struggle with that, and I think that's a spot where the Patriots can have some success.

[James Palmer]

Milton Williams has been outstanding. I mean, he really has. And I love that he admitted it. I took the bag, I went to do it. But at the same time, if you asked everybody on that defense or Vic Fangio or any of them, when I covered the Eagles during that run, a lot of people, we don't win a Super bowl in Philadelphia two years ago if we didn't have Milton Williams and it wasn't the name on the defense. Right. That wasn't the name in Philadelphia. That's how good he actually and truly is. All right, before we go, I'd be remiss, Chad, if I just didn't mention Bill Belichick to you. And what is the vibe in Foxborough with the biggest story in the NFL as we're leading into the super bowl, that Bill, with his six titles and add two more as a DC In New York, has not gotten in as a first ballot hall of Famer. What is the buzz in Foxborough? What is the conversations you've had? And I'd just like to know what the environment is there around that building.

[Chad Graff]

So two things. One is the total laughable nature of Bill Belichick not being a Hall of Famer. I get that there's nuance this and the change in the voting process and the removal of the waiting period, which I think impacts a guy like Belichick a lot. If you remove the emotion of the UNC stint this year, of the girlfriend, of whatever else, and have a five year waiting period, I would venture a guess that you would have gotten in even with the same people who voted no this year that maybe four years from now would vote yes. So there's the laughable nature of it all. But this is where I think it gets a little bit tricky for here in Foxborough and for the Patriots, kind of the unfortunate nature of this. And we'll see how it plays out is we know that at least one of the other four finalists is going to get in. One of them is Robert Kraft. We know about the relationship with Kraft and Belichick and how things ended. We know that Kraft has been a candidate many times to get into the hall of Fame and has so far not gotten in. I think it's a little bit unfortunate if it plays out this way, that maybe Kraft gets in on Thursday and then perhaps is overshadowed by the Belichick of it all. Even if Kraft had nothing to do with that, that would be an unfortunate part of. But is a dynamic that's at play as we go forward of who's actually going to get in. Like, one of these guys is going to get in. It might be Kraft. It might be somebody else. So Kraft put out a statement kind of blasting, you know, where things stood with that whole voting process and calling it ludicrous that Belichick didn't get in, which I think was the right thing to do. But also, their relationship didn't end well, that's fair to say. And it would be a little bit weird if. If Kraft now gets in, as Belichick does not. And frankly, this has a chance to be, like, a really bad stretch for Belichick to not get in. Maybe Kraft gets in, and then, you know, if the Patriots win the Super Bowl, Tom Brady left without him, won a Super Bowl. Robert Kraft replaces a coach, gets into the super bowl, and if he's sitting in Chapel Hill, like, man, things have not gone great for me in the last 10 days. That's a different dynamic that's at play. Even if we can all safely say, yeah, of course the guy is a Hall of Famer.

[James Palmer]

Yeah. Unbelievable. Just unreal. Everybody go check. We did a deep dive on this topic with Seth Wickersham, who broke the news that's on the YouTube channel. Make sure you check that out. And Chad, Seth had an interesting comment. I thought this was really poignant. And the way you mentioned Kraft, I'm hoping it's not Robert Kraft and that it's somebody else, because the way Seth said it was, it's actually might be good that the news is out now and that it has died down over the period of time and say another one of the contributors gets in outside of Robert Kraft, it's almost run its course. And that person, when they get in at NFL honors, is not just fully overshadowed that it's not Bill Belichick. And I thought that was an interesting kind of look at it as well. But if it is Robert Kraft, then it all gets spun back up again into an entire thing. And it is. Oh man, this has been, hey, nothing short of storylines in Foxborough. Nothing short of why we talk so frequently. Chad, Enjoy super bowl week. Enjoy San Francisco. We'll be talking to you and appreciate it as always, my friend.

[Chad Graff]

Perfect. Thanks for having me.

[James Palmer]

All right, we heard from both reporters with these respective teams, but let's continue to talk about the two super bowl teams. That's the Seahawks, that's the Patriots. They both have defensive head coaches. What did that mean to Zach Kiefer? He wrote about it. We're going to talk about it. And what trend now is starting starting in the NFL. Next on Scoop City. Hi, I'm Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman. I am not a sentimental person, but I am a romantic and my plan is to cook my beloved a beautiful meal on Valentine's Day.

[Mike DeFebo]

If you're doing the same, let me.

[James Palmer]

Recommend Whole Foods Market as the place to plan the perfectly indulgent and romantic evening at home.

[Chad Graff]

And don't forget flowers.

[James Palmer]

Taste the love all month at Whole Foods Market.

[Mark Bittman]

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[Michael Shawn Dugar]

All.

[James Palmer]

Right, our Thursday road trip here on Scoop City continues around the NFL with our good buddy Zach Kiefer joins us and he has a brilliant article on the athletic. You have to go check this out. It is really focusing on the two coaches that are going to be in the Super Bowl, Mike for and Mike McDonald and what we learned from the NFL playoffs, Seahawks and Patriots, but coaching trends in rapid rebuilds. And this is why I wanted to have this conversation with you, Zach. Honestly, because of the way that these two teams have built their organizations with these respective head coaches and how they've gone about it. I kind of want to get the crux of the entire article from you as we start about why this kind of piqued your interest in what you said saw when you kind of broke it down from both organizations.

[Zach Kiefer]

I think it's great, James, when you take a 30,000 foot view and look at the macro moves that led us here. Right. So as our colleague Mike Sando wrote on Sunday night, this is might be the most unlikely super bowl matchup we've had in 50 years. Who had the Patriots and the Seahawks in this game back in August, back 18 months ago? Right. Not a lot of people, if anyone. So I wanted to figure out how they got here and I came back to two pieces people. And I think these people are most, most responsible for these hires that went against the grain. Right. We'll start with the obvious one. The Seahawks were hiring a coach for the first time in almost 15 years. Right. And the interesting thing that their GM, John Schneider did and admitted to afterward was he listened to this podcast and the podcast was about hiring.

[James Palmer]

Oh, I thought you meant this one. Okay, go ahead.

[Zach Kiefer]

But but imagine that an NFL GM is listening to a random podcast in late January about hiring and the question that stuck with him was who is going to reshape the market. Now, remember, he's in this division with Sean McVay and the Rams, Kyle Shanahan and the 49ers, two of the very best at what they do. That offensive minded, which is really, you know, tilted the way every NFL team thinks about the hiring process for the last 10 years. So he did the opposite. He found his McVeigh of defense, his Shawn, his Kyle Shanahan of defense. And the word that stuck with me most was when he hired Mike McDonald, he said he's a disruptor. So he found a guy that can go toe to toe with them. And instead of chasing them, instead of finding Shanahan Jr. Or Sean McVeigh Jr. Which so many teams in the league have done, they found offensive minds that aren't quite as good. I think those are. They're the best two. Right. He found someone that was better or as good as them on the other side of the ball that really got in there with way. And it's very poetic that in their way to the super bowl, the Seahawks have beat the 49ers and have beat the Rams. And I think this is a really good lesson for all these teams right now that are hiring coaches right now. Now, eight of the jobs have been filled. Two of them are still open, but we'll have more next year. And if they're just going to chase the next great young offensive mind, that's not as good as Shanahan or McVay. Are they really doing the right thing? And the other thing he deserves credit for is identifying the quickest way to get to the Super Bowl. You have to win your division. You have to be able to host playoff games, which is such an advantage. And he really found a counter punch, and I give him a lot of credit for that.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, that's a great point. Let's stick there in Seattle. First with. With what Mike has done and the messaging that he's brought, I think he obviously is, in terms of acumen, like just one of the best defensive minds in football. We've seen that at every stop that he's had. And then you look at the way they've built it around him, and it's like, hey, remember when you played with Kyle Hamilton and what you did on that Baltimore Ravens defense? Here's Nikki More. Let's do that and let's. Let's figure out how we can have these chess pieces on our side of the ball to go against your chess pieces. And so much offensive, driven football. And I think what John Schneider has done is just been outstanding as an executive. I think you would probably agree with me there. And every move that he's probably made in recent memory has been taking the risk on Jackson, Smith and Jigba and taking the chance on Sam Darnold and all of these things have really paid off and Mike McDonald's at the top of it. I am curious what your thought is then. So many people I talk to around the league are going Jesse Minter was kind of the next Mike McDonald and you look at what the Ravens have done and going and bringing him in. Somebody that yes they're familiar with. But as I asked around the league about Jesse Zach it was like he, he is kind of that counter punch. He is that guy that makes offenses kind of play to how he dictates a game with coverage and how he attacks protection and stuff like that. And and I've been told he's a star in the making. Do you think this is kind of you mentioned the next cycle coming up like Jesse might be the next move after teams see the success of a Mike McDonald and so Seattle I've heard.

[Zach Kiefer]

The same things about Jesse Minter from those who known him and for those who faced him. So we're on par with that. And I think the lesson here is let's look at the 10 hirings that are going to happen by the end of this coaching cycle. I think three of them stand out. To me the lesson from the Seahawks is identify what you want and be willing to take the risk. I think the Giants deserve a lot of credit for all the screw ups they've had over the past. They knew what they wanted, it was one guy and they went and got him. And that runs parallel to what Robert Kraft did two years ago when he realized that the guy he hired to replace Bill Belichick wasn't it. And it takes him guts to admit that 1 and to 2 to move off of him in 12 months. Right. But he knew what he wanted. It was Mike Frable or nothing. And Mike Vrabel had a lot of interest and he went out and got him. So the Giants did the same thing with John Harbaugh. It was Harbaugh and then it was everybody else and they got him. I think the Falcons deserve a lot of credit too for getting Kevin Stefancy because the longer this goes, you know, the Browns are going to have to settle for maybe their second or third choice. Who knows what the Raiders are going to have to do. You can throw the Cardinals in there as well, but I think the teams that have identified the guy that they want. And doesn't it feel like to you that the Baltimore Ravens, when they moved on from John Harbaugh, Jesse Minter was number one on their list, not number two, not number three. And they got it done in a very Ravens way. It was very direct, it was very quick. It was very seamless. You just see how good operations work in these types of crisis situations and how the bad ones don't. And I got to give the Giants credit and I got to give the Falcons credit. But I think the Ravens are the perfect example. I think Jensey Minter could be the next Mike McDonald. And I think the Ravens are really smart for the way they handled this.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, I think it's a great point. And let's kind of look at both of these guys. And you mentioned defensive side of the ball for Mike and defensive side of the ball for Mike in this Super Bowl. How much have you seen their qualities, though, as the CEO of these billion dollar organizations? Right. And what they bring on top of knowing football. I don't know if anybody knows the NFL rule book better than Mike Vrabel that's a head coach in the NFL and, you know, and playing those things to his advantage in situational football. But the overarching aspect of both of them in their buildings. If you talk to anybody in Seattle and it's like you can't walk five feet without another saying that Mike has that he wants all of you to see. And Vrabel has a very distinct message that is portrayed through the rest of the building. It feels like we got away from. From the CEO overarching both sides of the ball part for a little while. Do you think these guys represent how you can kind of do that on the defensive side of the ball but still achieve that CEO aspect?

[Zach Kiefer]

Yeah. That's interesting because it's the first time two defensive coaches, if you want to call them that, though they're coaches of the whole team, have faced off since Dan Quinn and Belichick in that Falcons Patriots Super Bowl. That was a long time ago. The league has changed a lot. I want to start with Vrabel because I lived the other side of Vrabel. I covered the Colts for. For a long time. And the Colts had an owner who was very, very jealous of Mike Vrabel's ability to get the best out of his team. And the Colts felt like they had more talent and they could not beat the Titans when it mattered. And Jim Irsay was enamored with Mike Vrabel in a lot of ways. And he would bring it up. He would bring it up that our team isn't tough enough. They're not tough enough like Mike Vrabel's team. And James, you know this from being in locker rooms. And the great thing about locker rooms is, is they don't lock. You can tell when a player has connected with his coach, and that is an overwhelming sentiment you get from Patriots players now and Titans players back in the day. And you think about this, I mean, that. That translates like, that translates whether it's an offensive coach or defensive coach, that stuff you can't fabricate. The Titans have won six games since Mike Vrabel was fired. That's been two years. The Patriots have won six games since Dec. 21, and they're getting knocked on their schedule and all that. But this guy wins because he connects with his players, and that's a really hard thing to do. A lot of people think it's easy, but these are grown men making millions of dollars, and he is one of the best I've seen, certainly in the contemporary game at doing that. So I give the Patriots a lot of credit. But there is a secret sauce to what Mike Frable does, and it's kind of in that throwback ability to connect with his big guys.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, it is. And he's one of those guys, if you talk to, and I think you've done the same as you talk to guys who play for him. It's like, I don't want to let him down. That's kind of like the way that they play. And when you get the compliments from Mike Vrabel, I've gotten them, and they feel better than compliments from other people because he doesn't hand them out there. He doesn't throw them out there at all. And so you're like, oh, man, this. Wow, my gun feels really good. There's a part of what Vrabel has that I'm kind of curious. Mike McDonald probably is going to have to deal with more so than Mike Vull is, and that's the opposite coordinator. And when you look at Josh McDaniels and you look at Steve Spagnolo or you look at Vic Fangio, these guys are at, like, the top of their game, game on their side of the ball. And it just doesn't seem like they are head coaching candidates moving forward. And to me, it was always a cheat code in Kansas City for Andy Reed going, I never have to worry about, A, that side of the ball or B, that man leaving. I don't Know why, but that's the way it's always been with Spags. It seems like Mike Vrabel has that with Josh McDaniels in the way he's developed. Drake may, but with Clint Kubiak and being a hot head coaching hire as an offensive minded guy, like teams still want to make sure they don't get away from how is he, you know, have to go through an adaptation probably of fixing maybe one side of the ball more than once during his tenure in Seattle as opposed to what Mike Vrabel has. I think they are a little bit different in that sense. And I'm always feeling like somebody when you pick on the defensive side of the ball, are now searching for that Josh McDaniels type of recipe because that's what Bill Jack heads for so long.

[Zach Kiefer]

I think you use the phrase cheat code, I'm right there with you. I think that was Andy Reid's secret sauce, right. Is the fact that he had a defensive coordinator that was head coaching quality by any metric. And you know how much those guys play for Spags in Kansas City. That was not going to leave or that interviewed but still was not going to leave. And that's how I think success is sustained in this league. That's how you don't just win one championship, that's how you win a couple. And you're seeing it. I mean, look at Baker Mayfield in Tampa. Right now he's on his, I want to say, eighth offensive coordinator in nine seasons.

[James Palmer]

I think so.

[Zach Kiefer]

I mean, that is, that is just. They're just churning through the them. And that's going to be a problem because Clint Kubiak is going to be a head coach. Now, he's not the most outwardly charismatic guy at a podium, but if you go back to what he did last year, those first couple games in New Orleans, they were on fire before Derek Carr got hurt. And then this year he's done a wondrous job. So I think of it in two different ways, right? So for a long time it was let's chase the young, hot offensive coach, right? He's going to be the next Sean McVay. The other thing is we're going to chase the young, young quarterback and get him on the rookie deal and do what so many have done. Seattle did it backwards, right? They went defensive coach who they thought was the best, and then they also found a quarterback who another team discarded who's been just absolutely wonderful for two years. I mean, Sam Donald's got like 60 touchdowns and is like 30 and 10 or something like that. So I give the Seahawks a lot of credit for bucking convention in so many different ways. And you see it on Sundays. They have the most complete team in football. They have since September.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, they do. All right, last question I have for you, because this was posed to me by somebody in the league the other day, and this kind of ties into your article. And I kind of pieced the two things together. They were like when you look at the Denver Broncos and they have a new ownership regime that has been outstanding so far since the Walton Penner group took over. I think George Payton has actually done a very, very good job as a person, personnel and talent evaluator as the general manager. And then you have Sean Payton, obviously, as the man who came in, has changed the culture and has done so, so much for what they've done and picked the quarterback in Bo Nix. I'll use both of these organizations and that one as an example of those are the four, to me, pillars of success in an NFL organization, right? The ownership, the general manager, the head coach, and the quarterback. Where are we seeing, you think right now in today's NFL, being the one out of those four being the most important.

[Zach Kiefer]

I almost am tempted to go away from quarterback here and go head coach. I feel like I am, too.

[James Palmer]

That was my answer.

[Zach Kiefer]

Okay, I, I'm, look, I'm sitting there watching the games on Sunday and I'm watching every snap and I'm thinking about, how are the Patriots here? The Patriots are here before Josh Allen ever makes one Super Bowl. I looked up these stats and they're. These are going to be so depressing. Like, they've made it to 10 Super Bowls since the Dolphins last won a play playoff game. They've made it to six Super Bowls since the jets last made the playoffs. They've made it to 11 since the bills last made it. And I think collectively, America is rooting for the Bills to make it finally. And they have this superman at quarterback and they still haven't made it. And to put a bow on what I'm talking about, this is because Mike McDonald imprinted his fingerprints all over that Seattle team. And it's because Mike Vrabel did the same thing in New England. They won four games each of the last two years. They were a disaster in America and the rest of the non New England area loved the fact that the Patriots were down and here we are again. They're back in the title game. They just deserve a lot of credit because Mike VRA was able to do it. I'M going head coach in a lot of sports. I don't think coaching matters that much, but I am an Indiana grad, so I will give credit to Kurt Signetti and the national champs and I'm going to give a lot of credit to Mike vrabel and Mike McDonald as well. Coaching and football matters like never before.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, you were there, man.

[Zach Kiefer]

Right.

[James Palmer]

You're.

[Chad Graff]

I.

[Mark Bittman]

The game.

[James Palmer]

How was it there?

[Zach Kiefer]

It was. It was a night we will never forget. Let's put it that way.

[Mark Bittman]

We.

[Zach Kiefer]

We did not expect to be there our entire lives and to have it happen like that in a really tough game for them to come out. It felt like a dream and we still haven't woken up from it.

[James Palmer]

Oh, I love it. That's awesome. But I'm with you on the head coach.

[Mark Bittman]

I am.

[James Palmer]

I mean, which. I think it's the, it's the, the, the cog in the middle that touches all of them. We need this from ownership. The head coach will get it done. In a lot of these instances, the relationship with the general manager and the, the head coach's relationship with the quarterback. Even if you're on the defensive side of the ball, Vrabel has done wonders for Drake May. If you ask anybody, it's not just Josh McDaniel. So I do think, I think that's why these hires are so important and that you shouldn't be skewed to just one side of the ball. Zach, appreciate it. I could talk to you forever about ball and we'll just write another brilliant article, please. And then we'll be back doing this on Scooter.

[Zach Kiefer]

I'm heading to Italy to cover the Olympics. So no football for a while. I'll have you on to talk about Italy.

[James Palmer]

We'll have you on to talk about Italy.

[Zach Kiefer]

Let's go skiing and snowboarding. I'm going to learn a lot. It's going to be blast.

[James Palmer]

I love it, man. Appreciate it.

[Zach Kiefer]

Thanks, guys.

[James Palmer]

Teams bucking some of the trends. Well, the Pittsburgh Steelers, they did go offense, but they did buck the trend in which they've hired usually younger, defensive minded head coaches. Well, Mike McCarthy's now in his hometown as the head coach. Mike Defebo was there for the press conference. What does this mean for the Steelers? What does this mean for Aaron Rodgers? He has it all. Next on Scoopson.

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[James Palmer]

Hey guys, it's James Palmer. You listen to us now. We want to hear from you. We're asking you to fill out a quick survey about you and your podcast habits by going to theathletic.com survey26. Now three lucky entries. Entries will win $100 worth of Amazon vouchers too. So whether you're a longtime listener or a new one, we want your feedback. Go to theathletic.com survey26. That's theathletic.com survey 26. The link is also in our episode Description all right, joining us on Our Thursday road trip we do here at the Athletic on Scoop City. Mike DeFebo joins us as he was at a very big press conference this week. Mike, you're no longer my favorite favorite Mike in Pittsburgh. It's now Mike McCarthy. No, I'm just kidding. He's number two. You're number one. What was the first takeaway you gleaned from that press conference about him coming home and maybe him being maybe kind of emotional or open about coaching this team in this city, perhaps?

[Zach Kiefer]

Yeah.

[Mike DeFebo]

So even before he started his opening statement, he reached down and grabbed a piece of paper and even before he could get the first words out, he started to get emotional. And it just stuck out to me so much that this was a guy who grew up in green in the Greenfield neighborhood, which is a very blue collar part of a very blue collar city. And his father was a firefighter, police officer and bar owner, which in a city like Pittsburgh, that's like the Pittsburgh Triple Crown. They call it a shot in a beer town here. And for the guy to literally own a bar really takes it to the next level. And so, you know, he talked about his quote was pretty great. It was kind of a bar. He said for a lot of coaches and players, when you put on different colors for the first time, it takes time to feel comfortable in them. But to put on the colors that you've been wearing since you were taken home from the hospital, you know, it hits different. Like you feel comfortable in it. And I thought that was just such a very cool moment. And it felt like a family reunion. Like I was telling other people, I felt like I was. Was in someone's grandma's basement in Greenfield because, like there were like 20 McCarthy's rolling in, packing the front two rows. So very much an emotional day for Mike McCarthy where he feels like he's back at home coaching the team he grew up rooting for.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, this is huge for Mike, obviously, and huge for his family. Like you mentioned, rolling deep and I love it. But you would have to say this doesn't play a major factor in the reason Mike won this job. It might play some factor that, you know, oftentimes when guys understand the area, understand, understand the climate, understand everything about it, also plays a little bit of a factor. But the other aspects of why Mike won the job from the Steelers side of things, when you did the digging, Mike was specifically what really, I think.

[Mike DeFebo]

A lot of it has to do with the quarterback situation. We've talked in the past that the Steelers were in this situation where they were looking for a head coach because they failed repeatedly to find the successor to Ben Roethlisberger. So history and tradition would tell tell you the Pittsburgh Steelers are going to go out, they're going to hire some 30 or 40 year old coach who's a defensive coordinator most likely, and he's going to provide stability and continuity for decades. But the Steelers very much flipped the script and went the opposite direction. They hired a coach who's much older. They also hired a coach who was on the other side of the ball. And that was intentional because they recognized that quarterback's the most important position in the game. And it's also also one of the biggest shortcomings of the Steelers of the last five to seven years is finding that successor to Ben Roethlisberger. So, you know, in the short term it seems like they might have to put another veteran band aid on this season. But in the longer term, maybe 2027, that's when you're going to be counting on Mike McCarthy to use his experience working with quarterbacks to develop that next future franchise quarterback.

[James Palmer]

Do you see Will Howard playing any factor in this? I had heard that Mike liked him. I mean, obviously he's a, is a lower round draft pick, but at the same time many guys have succeeded from there. Is there any element of Will Howard in this development possibly?

[Mike DeFebo]

Well, first of all, let me correct your pronunciation. In Pittsburgh they say Will Howard. It's just one syllable and that was pretty great. Mike McCarthy has very much the Pittsburgh accent. It was Will Hired and Omar Khan.

[James Palmer]

Perfect.

[Mike DeFebo]

So he very much played to his base with his accident accent, you know. But he said that he does have some excitement for Will Howard and I don't know that he's going to be, you know, really the second question that, that Mike McCarthy was asked was very pointedly, do you want Aaron Rodgers here? And he said definitely. And he acknowledged that he's already spoken with Aaron. So it sure seems to me like the Steelers would like Aaron Rodgers to come back next year. And really the ball is in Aaron Rodgers court, but they still like Will Howard. And I think that they're going to continue to evaluate this year's draft class and potentially take a swing somewhere in the middle rounds. And then it still seems like eventually maybe 2027, when the quarterback class is stronger, they're going to make that aggressive swing and try to find that legitimate high end talent that's worth trading up for.

[James Palmer]

Do you feel where were the other candidates in terms of how close they were to Mike McCarthy or did he start to run away with this because you've mentioned he breaks the mold. And obviously this. This is one that doesn't happen very often. But what we've seen in the past about what Pittsburgh's been interested in in head coaching hires, we were looking in one direction. Would any of those guys come close to Mike, or did he start to just kind of win this once he started having those interactions with omar Khan Co. And people he knows in that building?

[Mike DeFebo]

Well, I think one of the criticisms that people here in Pittsburgh have had of this search process is it was quick and it didn't appear to be very extensive. You know, I know that they interviewed virtual, you know, about eight candidates, but they only hosted three in person. They brought in Brian Flores, Anthony Weaver, and then the guy they ultimately hired in, Mike McCarthy. And so it sure seemed like Mike McCarthy was a front runner from the very beginning. And it seemed like very quickly they identified him as the next coach and they decided, look, let's not wait any further. This is the guy that we want. Let's move forward.

[James Palmer]

And.

[Mike DeFebo]

And I guess there really has been a lot of negative public reaction here in Pittsburgh where people wanted a more exhaustive search process. They at least wanted the Steelers to bring in Chris Shula and see what he had to say in person. They wanted Nathan Shieldhouse to be given the opportunity to impress him in an interview. But you look at it, and they just went with experience and they went with a guy who's developed quarterbacks, and ultimately they felt like that outweighed every other factor.

[Zach Kiefer]

Factor.

[James Palmer]

Okay, makes sense. Makes sense. It's actually the direction that honestly we've seen from this. This hiring cycle. Right. A lot of cycles in past have been, you know, guys coming in, and it's the young mind. It's the first time head coach, and this cycle has been a lot of guys that have had previous head coaching experience. So it does kind of line up. And we know the way the league works and it's cyclical. I'd like that. How else do we go approach, look at this staff moving forward and this roster. Do you. Did you get the sense from. From Mike coming in, anything that. That you can. You can tell us in terms of maybe the. Where they look to improve immediately in terms of staff, in terms of roster.

[Mike DeFebo]

Well, you know, I think one thing that's really critical for the Pittsburgh Steelers and for Mike McCarthy is hiring a really good defensive coordinator. A lot of people have compared Mike McCarthy to Sean Payton because they're very similar age. Sean Payton is offensive minded. He found that future franchise quarterback in Bonix that he can develop and elevate the team at the same time. The Denver Broncos are in the position that they were and they were competitive in a game with their backup quarterback because they have Vance Joseph and because Vance Joseph is an elite defensive play caller and excellent defensive mind. And in a similar way, I think it's very important for Mike McCarthy McCarthy to find who is going to be the man leading his defense. And one name to, to at least know and I know that he's coming to Pittsburgh, flying in on Thursday and I'm not sure exactly whether his interviews Thursday or Friday. Thursday is Patrick Graham, you know, former or current defensive coordinator of the Las Vegas Raiders. He's an interesting guy just because he's worked with so many established and well respected defensive minds dating back to his early days with Bill Belichick where he learned how to beat defenses or make the opponent beat you with their offhand. He's worked with Steve Spagnolo where he's learned those pressure packages. He's worked with Brian Flores where more pressure but then also learning some of the quarters things that are so popular right now in today's world. So he's worked with a lot of different, very well respected defensive minds and in his own right is very well respected. He even had, I believe, a couple head coaching interviews during this cycle in addition to some interest from the coach commanders that I, he. I'm not saying he's going to get the job. I'm not reporting that quite yet. But that is definitely a name to circle and someone that. I wonder if those dots, you know, could be connected sooner than later.

[James Palmer]

No, I mean that's, that's always the ying to your yang. And when I always think about this Mike, it's always going. When you look at Mike McCarthy's resume, you go, it's pretty damn good. Like it's, there's a lot of winning that's gone on there with Mike McCarthy, but it seems like Pittsburgh is going to need to be won over just a little bit by the, by the homegrown man. I don't know. We'll see. Appreciate it, man. We'll stay, we'll stay abreast with you as we go through the rest of this, this staff as it comes together for Mike McCarthy.

[Mike DeFebo]

Yeah, absolutely. Steelers are always a story. So I'm sure we'll be talking before too long about the staff, Aaron Rodgers.

[James Palmer]

Quarterbacks, something like that, your car, all these things. We'll cover it all.

[Mike DeFebo]

We'll do the full what's it called? A 50 point inspection. Yeah, we'll do the same thing with the Steelers that we do with my car.

[James Palmer]

Got it. All right, that'll do it for our Thursday trip around the NFL on Scoop City. Our road trip is complete. Thank you to Michael Shawn Dugar, to Chad Graf, to Mike defebo, to Zach Kieffer. Make sure you stay tuned to Scoop City all throughout super bowl week. We'll have reports with both teams. We'll have reports from Diana Rossini. He'll be all over Santa Clara giving us different news and nuggets from the Pro Bowlers, from the super bowl, all sorts of different things. Stay tuned to Scoop City. Don't forget to like and subscribe. Take it easy. Par le tu francais hablas espanol?

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Parliamento.

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