Eagles Offseason Chaos: A.J. Brown Rumors, Another New System For Jalen Hurts

Summary

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Scoop City: Inside The NFL

Episode: Eagles Offseason Chaos: A.J. Brown Rumors, Another New System for Jalen Hurts
Date: March 4, 2026
Host: James Palmer (The Athletic)
Guests: Brooks Cabina (Eagles insider), Jesse Newell (Chiefs), Zach Jackson (Browns)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into the Philadelphia Eagles’ turbulent offseason, including swirling rumors about A.J. Brown, the prospect of another new offensive system for Jalen Hurts, and key roster decisions in Philadelphia. The show then pivots to detailed analysis and updates on the Kansas City Chiefs’ rare high draft pick and offseason crossroads, and concludes with a candid look at the Cleveland Browns’ complete offensive line overhaul and quarterback quagmire.

The tone is insider-driven, honest, and laced with humor, with all three guests giving listeners informed, on-the-ground perspectives.

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1. Philadelphia Eagles: Offseason Priorities & Turmoil

Draft and Roster Strategy

• Offensive Line Rebuild at the Forefront

  • Lane Johnson and Landon Dickerson’s injuries last year were red flags—both return, but the line is aging and vulnerable ([03:26]).
  • Cam Jurgens, the starting center, is receiving stem cell treatment for his back. Depth and health issues demand urgent investment through the draft or free agency.
  • Brooks Cabina:

    “Within a couple of years, you could think, all right, you had one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. And then all of a sudden, it could be in the bottom pretty quickly if you’re not addressing that.” ([03:26])

• Edge Rusher in Focus

  • Jalen Phillips was acquired midseason; the goal is to re-sign him, but his injury history (Achilles and ACL tears) casts uncertainty ([04:35]).
  • Key question: If not Jalen Phillips, who deserves a big deal at edge?
  • The Eagles want to avoid repeating the swing-and-miss of the Bryce Huff signing, where a marquee acquisition was later a healthy Super Bowl scratch.

• Linebacker Dilemma & Nakobe Dean

  • Brooks expects Nakobe Dean to leave, despite his leadership, due to injury history and last year’s first-round pick Jahad Campbell ([07:41]).
  • The team faces a choice between Dean’s intangibles and Campbell’s upside.
  • James Palmer:

    “This is kind of a crux point in the middle of that defense about how he [Howie Roseman] has to make some of these difficult decisions.” ([09:08])

A.J. Brown: Trade Rumors and Locker Room Dynamic

• Eagles leadership, including Howie Roseman and Nick Sirianni, publicly want Brown back, but he was dissatisfied and withdrawn late last season ([09:52]).
• The Eagles aren't shopping Brown, but they will listen to offers—if the price is right, he could be gone, but there’s still a path to reconciliation if he buys into the new offensive system.
• Brooks Cabina:

  “You don’t do that by subtracting… if a trade market comes to it, where the calculus works out, I could see a scenario where AJ Brown is not playing for the Eagles next year.” ([09:52])

Devonta Smith & The New Offensive System

• Smith’s untapped versatility could be maximized whether or not Brown stays.
• Nick Sirianni to Palmer:

  "I think there's really nothing that Devontae Smith can’t do on a football field. We need to find more ways to utilize Smitty." ([12:08])

• Incoming OC Shawn Manion (from the Shanahan tree) will feature more zone running, play-action, expanded under-center looks, and upgrades to tight end blocking.

Jalen Hurts: Another New Coordinator

• Main Challenge: Trust and Adaptation — Hurts’ most vital next step is buying into yet another new play-caller.
• Brooks Cabina:

  “From what I’ve covered with Jalen Hurts, I think the number one thing is trust in the system, in the coach... he will be like, I really want to understand what it is we’re doing, because I know what I’m good at.” ([16:30])

• Hurts is self-aware, willing to evolve, but lack of continuity is his biggest obstacle. Both system and staff need to present “conviction” for Hurts to commit.
• Palmer calls Jalen’s self-awareness “one of his superpowers” ([18:51]).

Memorable Segment:
Brooks and James reminisce about calling Devonta Smith’s stardom early—“a couple of guys know what they’re talking about here.” ([15:38])

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2. Kansas City Chiefs: Rare High Draft Pick & Aging Core

Draft Strategy: Unusual Opportunity

• Chiefs, for the first time in years, pick at #9. Last time they picked this high, they selected Patrick Mahomes (after a big trade-up) ([23:43]).

• Both hosts agree this is a rare, invaluable asset for KC. Wide receiver, edge rusher, or tackle are likely—especially since premium players at these positions are costly in free agency.

• Jesse Newell:

  “This is an asset they don’t get... They’re usually 29, 30, 31, 32, waiting and hoping other teams let someone fall. Now you get a crack at something that doesn’t happen very often.” ([24:32])

Free Agency & Trade Outlook

• Chiefs likely to sign a running back in free agency, not at #9.
• Brett Veach may consider trading down if the right player isn’t available at 9 ([27:00]), especially since trading up is his usual move.
• Chiefs’ cap situation means they need stars on rookie contracts but also cheap contributors.

Travis Kelce: Return or Retirement?

• Unlike last offseason, no official answer yet; Chiefs are giving Kelce space, possibly announcing on his (hugely popular) podcast ([30:09]).
• His contract will be trickier due to cap constraints, but both believe he should be back for at least one more year.
• James Palmer:

  “He’s not Travis of old, but maybe we should remember that this guy understands space better than anybody on the planet.” ([32:31])

Tyreek Hill Reunion?

• Hill wants a Chiefs return and is openly courting the team ([33:53]), but health is a major issue after a serious injury, and complicated off-field considerations (including young WRs with their own concerns).
• Jesse Newell:

  “Tyreek, from what we’ve seen on social media... wants to be back with the Chiefs... But I’d be surprised if it happened.” ([34:28])

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3. Cleveland Browns: Offensive Line Exodus & Quarterback Uncertainty

The “Miracle Worker” Task for New Coach Todd Monken

• Monken inherits a stripped-down group—almost the entire starting O-line is likely leaving:

  “The whole offensive line’s leaving, the quarterback situation’s a wreck, and the receiving core is generously bottom three. This offense stinks and has stunk...” — Zach Jackson ([39:35])

• Browns have six OL free agents, no proven starters lined up.

Offseason Priorities: Tackle and WR Must Be Addressed

• With picks at 6 and 24, expect the Browns to go OT and WR in some order ([41:58]).
• There’s zero depth at both, and no room for best-player-available strategizing. Jackson expects a “strong percentage” chance the draft starts with tackle/WR ([43:44]).

Quarterback Carousel

• Deshaun Watson is only on the team because of contract guarantees—“he’s never taken over the building as a great player or dynamic leader... out since October 2024... Based on the 19 games we’ve seen, he has played three good games. It’s been awful.” ([45:18])
• Shadour Sanders: Young, raw, flashes moments, but extremely unproven; Malik Willis or other QBs could be brought in for competition.
• 12 different Browns QBs have started since 2023; the position remains deeply unsettled ([49:17]).

One Bright Spot: Harold Fannin at TE

• Fannin draws praise for his athleticism and playmaking from both analysts, seen as a clear building block amidst the gloom.

  “He’s just a natural playmaker… a high school safety in Canton… did it in the AFC North.” ([50:40])

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Notable Quotes

• Brooks Cabina (Eagles):

  "This is kind of a crux point in the middle of that defense about how he [Howie Roseman] has to make some of these difficult decisions." ([09:08])

• James Palmer (On Jalen Hurts):

  "I think Jalen’s self-awareness is one of his superpowers, in all honesty." ([18:51])

• Jesse Newell (Chiefs):

  "This is more about a rebuild... If you are going to truly rebuild this thing up and move forward, maybe Tyreek [Hill] is not part of that plan. That’s more trying to chase the past." ([35:12])

• Zach Jackson (Browns):

  "This offense stinks and has stunk and they chose to make Kevin Stefanski the scapegoat for it... and they have fewer [players] now because all the offensive linemen are leaving." ([39:35])

• On the Browns QBs:

  "12 guys have started since the start of the 24 season... 42 starters since 1999." ([49:17])

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Key Timestamps

• Eagles Draft/Offseason Priorities: 03:07–09:08
• A.J. Brown Situation: 09:08–12:08
• New Offensive Scheme & Jalen Hurts: 12:08–20:22
• Chiefs’ Draft Position/Strategy: 22:26–29:19
• Travis Kelce & Tyreek Hill Discussion: 30:09–36:14
• Browns’ Roster Problems & Draft Plan: 38:22–43:44
• Quarterback Situation in Cleveland: 44:09–50:21
• Harold Fannin Hype: 50:38–52:54

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Episode Highlights & Memorable Moments

• Brooks and Palmer’s banter on “calling their shots” with Devonta Smith’s Heisman rise ([15:38]).
• Chiefs’ leadership candidly confronting their rare chance at a top-10 pick.
• Zach Jackson’s brutally honest breakdown of the Browns’ endless list of offensive line, quarterback, and wide receiver problems—complete with a historical litany of failed Browns QBs ([49:17]).
• The light at the end of the tunnel for Cleveland fans: Harold Fannin.

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Summary

If you missed this episode, you’ll walk away knowing:

• The Eagles’ offseason is a minefield of injuries, looming departures, and brewing drama with both A.J. Brown and a very “new look” for Jalen Hurts’ offense.
• The Chiefs are in an unaccustomed position to make a draft splash but must navigate cap issues, the twilight of stars like Kelce, and rumors about reuniting with Tyreek Hill.
• The Browns, amid a near-total reset up front, must fix the offensive line and find a workable solution at quarterback—the era of piecemeal patchwork continues—with TE Harold Fannin a rare glimmer of hope.

The reporting is sharp, the quotes are candid, and the mood—while realistic about challenges—is consistently engaging.

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[James Palmer]

So I'm start calling people. I don't know. Some people really don't like really don't like when you say like hey guy or what's up champ? What's up boss?

[Brooks Cabina]

Yeah, makes it feel like you're uncleing

[James Palmer]

them your little brother them down and you're just saying like, you know, I don't really remember your name but I kind of remember your face. Yeah.

[Brooks Cabina]

Hey there.

[James Palmer]

Hey man. You we had a baseball coach. You just call everybody guy. I'm like hey guy. I know we're all like dudes but like the worst one to use would just be guy High. Welcome in to Scoop City on a Wednesday. James Palmer here with you. Yes. We usually do a road trip on Thursdays. We figured we'd do one on a Wednesday because even though we were all on the road in Indianapolis and we saw each other face to face, we still want to travel around the NFL. So we're going to talk about the Eagles with Brooks Cabina. Tons of stuff to get into with him, including an in depth dive into Jalen Hurts. Also, Zach Jackson takes us into everything that has to happen in that Browns room in Cleveland to get themselves back on the right track. You know, they don't really have an offensive line right now, so that's one thing to work on. And Jesse Newell and I discuss what's going on with the Chiefs, what could be the proper moves around Patrick Mahomes and maybe on the defensive side of the ball to get them back to where we're used to seeing them. So let's take our trip around the NFL, but this one's in person and start off with my man Brooks. Let's start with these Philadelphia Eagles. No shortage of storylines here. I don't even know where we begin. Um, let's start with. With where we think they go, since we're sitting here at the combine.

[Brooks Cabina]

Okay.

[James Palmer]

And they've kind of steered away from a little bit of what Howie has done over the years. We're like, oh, my God, we're not getting an offensive lineman in the first or second round the last couple of years. This is not a Howie situation. This isn't what he does. Where do we see Philly going when we kind of view this draft right now? Obviously, you can't predict picks because that's a little difficult, but where do you see them having a focus?

[Brooks Cabina]

Well, Howie Roseman's not the only GM that says they start up front, but that is something that he has done historically, and they need that on the offensive line. They had a couple of scares over the off season. Lane Johnson at right tackle and landed Dickerson left guard. Both of them had dealt with pain and played through that, and then there was questions whether they would be returning this year. They are, but you kind of look in this and you have a starting center in Cam Juergens who's going to Columbia for stem cell treatment on his back. Those are things that within a couple of years, you could think, all right, you had one of the best offensive lines in the NFL. And then all of a sudden, it could be in the bottom pretty quickly if you're not addressing that and things quickly. So I asked Howie Roseman this. We had a roundtable with them last Friday before he came to the combine. Just all of these. The uncertainties related to health, how he's going into that, and he's like, it's. You have that in your mind. But also they have to address the depth behind that. So I do expect that that is a priority for them this offseason, whether that's in free agency upcoming, but particularly in the draft, because they have drafted well, starting with Lee Johnson a long time back, and then Lane in Dickerson and such. So I think Cam Jurgens as well. So I Think that's priority for them.

[James Palmer]

Also.

[Brooks Cabina]

Edge rusher is a priority position for them. Free agency, that's actually the big topic. They traded mid season for Jalen Phillips.

[James Palmer]

You would have to think the goal is to sign him back, right? With giving up a third, wasn't it at the trade deadline? Isn't that what they gave up for him?

[Brooks Cabina]

I think that's a, that's not a sunk cost in his decision making. That was how he was talking about it in the sense of if he could win a playoff game by throwing in a third pick, third round pick for a trade, he'd do that every day.

[James Palmer]

He.

[Brooks Cabina]

And so that's not part of the calculus for me. The things that I understand about this is like, he's looking at, okay, he's got, he's in, he's in his prime at 26 years old. He was really good for them in the three months that they were there. He called him a tremendous player on the field and off in terms of leadership and all of that. But the health, you know, having torn his Achilles and also his acl, like those are, those are things that you look at medically. I'm kind of looking at it this from two. It's like if you've decided that you're going to buy an expensive car, let's like, all right, now you hold on. Okay, got it, got it. Okay. $200,000 or something. You're like here and there. Okay, well, what's 250,000 like, if you're going to buy a Rolex? Hey, so looking around, you got, you got players that are out there, like Max Crosby in the conversation with Trey Hendrickson in Cincinnati. Like, if you're in, if you're thinking about who you're going to pay a premium for, are you entertaining those kinds often? Are you throwing in extra picks to try and make that happen? Those are things that I'm wondering about. If it's not Jalen Phillips, then who? I think one of the priorities for the Eagles going into this is that they, knowing what they have on their roster, they value that. Seeing JM flips behind the scenes and how that works out because you look back, what was the impetus to get Jalen Phillips? They had a splash signing in Bryce Huff that did not work out. He came in, there were questions about, like, how he was going to play along the edge, and then by the super bowl, he was inactive, a healthy scratch, and you don't want that situation going to the next season. Now you have to trade midseason for Jalen Phillips. They do not want that to happen again. So I think if I was doing a line system on this, if you're a betting man, Jalen Phillips seems to get a job, get a deal done. Last year, Zach Bond was a priority person for them to sign. Jalen Phillips, to me, is that person now. And it's just a matter of whether they want to invest that much money, which they're going to have to at a priority position. And they have a lot of expensive contracts and just the health and all of that is a very interesting topic.

[James Palmer]

Yeah. And they usually do well, Brooks, when they listen to what Vic Fangio wants. And, and like he, he played for Vic, like there was a relationship and, you know, and it worked out well, relatively speaking, in Philly. And so when I look at that side of the ball. You mentioned the Zach Bond signing.

[Zach Jackson]

Sure.

[James Palmer]

You saw who they took in the first round a year ago. To me, it's going well. You can't bring everybody back.

[Brooks Cabina]

No.

[James Palmer]

Do you feel like. I know because of talking to people in the building, the importance of Nakobe Dean. Yeah, that's where we're talking about. But it's. Sometimes you do have to make difficult decisions. By the way the roster is constructed with moves that you made. They didn'. He was. He was going to be there in the first round last year. So they take. You know what I mean? So do you see that being something that leads to we're seeing Nakoby Dean in a different uniform next year.

[Brooks Cabina]

I think so.

[James Palmer]

I think so too.

[Brooks Cabina]

Because you spend a first round pick on Jihad Campbell. There were times in the middle of the year where he wasn't playing at all. You don't draft a guy who's on a relatively affordable contract for that quality of a player and have him not play. So going into this season, is he your linebacker? Because if Nicoby Dean is on the roster, Vick loves him and he's played to a level where he should be starting. So are you going to start splitting snaps and practice him on the edge? Because he can do that. Are you going to dedicate him in his development in the middle? Nicobi Dean? I think going into this, the Eagles are looking at this, looking at it like, okay, he's going to have a market for himself and maybe he prices himself out and then also with the people inside the building that we need to move on. I do wonder this though, because he does have an injury history. It's been a couple years that he's dealt with that.

[James Palmer]

Part of the reason he dropped in the draft.

[Brooks Cabina]

Exactly. And I could see a scenario, and I think there are people that have believed this too, going into free agency, that his value is not going to price himself out where the Eagles would be willing to pay for him. So then that becomes an interesting topic. Okay, he's definitely a leader in the locker room. Defensive players love him and they place a high priority on that as a team and how they build the culture of the locker room. He's clearly that. But when you have a young guy like Jahad Campbell, you really have to decide, are we going in this direction? So I think even if it's somewhere within their wheelhouse, I would actually be surprised if he's back with the Eagles next year. Just purely because they have to invest in Campbell.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And everything you're saying is right. When I would talk to people coaching on that side of the ball, they'd essentially say like, there's things that we can do as a defense because Jacoby is on the field. That's how we're able to run some of this. Now, you'd lose some of that. But you're right. This is all the weighing of value, roster construction. They're all coming together. And this is kind of a crux point in the middle of that defense about how he has to make some of these difficult decisions in terms of decisions on this roster. Everybody talks about A.J. brown and everybody talks about what's happening with his possible departure. We'll see. Do you see a scenario where like this got smoothed over and he returns, or are we past a point of return? No return.

[Brooks Cabina]

I don't think it's past a point of return. You're looking at a scenario where he's very clearly the Eagles want him. Howie Roseman has said this, Nick Sirianni says this. But you have seen throughout the last season, A.J. brown made it very clear that is, he was dealing with on field misery and to the point of the last month of the year and not talking to reporters and dealing with his feelings kind of privately going into the year. The question is how. And how he said this twice over the past week is when you're building a good team, you don't do that by subtracting. The math of that is important because if a trade market comes to it, where the calculus works out to be a match, I could see a scenario where AJ Brown is not playing for the Eagles next year. It's just a matter of whether they can make up for that because they do really like Devontae Smith. They Know that they have a number

[James Palmer]

one receiver, Brooks, I was going to talk to you about. Let's go. Keep going.

[Brooks Cabina]

Yeah, yeah, but that's part of it as well. I think he's a person that can be a high volume target and with the offense that they're shifting toward a lot of play action, the things that he can do, you know, you've got a guy that can do it, which does mean you have to make wide receiver priority in the draft and free agency upcoming. But they don't want to lose AJ Brown. But the question to me is if they're, if they, if they are. I don't think they're not going into this picking up the phone and calling people about aj. They are going to take calls on aj, which is, which you should do. They're not eliminating that as a possibility. But if they, the price isn't right and you're going into the summer and AJ still does not want to be in Philly, then what do you do? Do you end up going into July and August and is he not going to show up? I don't get the sense from him that he's someone that is. That, that that's going to happen. I think Sean Manion cutting in and figuring out the system because a lot of this is in the last time we talked, we talked about the AJ Brown stories I was writing back in October. It is an existential thing for him to contribute, to be a part of the scheme and the system and help the team win. And seeing the system as it's built out, if that comes to it, is like, all right, I can contribute in this way. I could see that also smoothing things over in those words. So there's a lot that could happen up into the summer, but I do think if the price is right, I could see A.J. brown elsewhere.

[James Palmer]

Okay, I get you. I got you. I did a sit down yesterday with Nick Sirianni and Nick did tell me, he's like, I think there's really nothing that Devontae Smith can't do on a football field. You know, because I was kind of leading him into going like, I feel like we haven't unlocked everything that devonte can do. And that was his response, like, no, there's nothing he can't do on a football field. He can, he can do it all, man. Like, we need to find more ways to utilize Smitty in that sense. And that's whether I think AJ's there or not there. I think you still can do that and solve that. Sticking with that Side of the ball. You mentioned Shawn Manion. Like this is again another offensive coordinator. And we always go in Philadelphia. All right, how will it look different, how we will make. But at the same time, things always relatively go down one kind of path. And that's usually because you play to your quarterback strengths and how your quarterback plays. But how do you see this looking with Sean Manion? And obviously we know the tree he comes from. Yes, but what do you expect to see in 2026?

[Brooks Cabina]

Well, we're going to see more of the zone run schemes, whether that's outside zone or inside zone. And then the play action built off of that. I think you'll see that transform a lot of the. Not a lot of the position, but specifically tight end and how they need to get better at run blocking, but how that relates to their quarterback. And Jalen hurts. We've seen a little bit last year what they were trying to do that I think will expand more under center, more playoffs and rollouts. The sideline, which has been within Jalen Hertz's wheelhouse for the last six years, is opened up in that sense. You can eliminate one side of the field, then you can have levels across to the side to go deep middle, you know, to your Titans and all and that. And then because you can see it in the hires that they made also beyond just Sean Manion, it's, you know, Chris Cooper comes from the Vikings and you know, Ryan Mahaffey has that as the run game corner here as a wide receiver coach back and has experience in that as well. I think you're going to see a lot of that shift and they've got a really good offensive line that if they're all healthy and are playing, then they can do anything. So you've got that. And he was just talking about Nick Sirianni, about Saquon Barkley. His yards before contact last year were to New York Giants levels. So if they can get the scheme cleaned up. Quite frankly, when I was watching it last year, they were just, you know, offensive linemen blocking grass. You know, it was, it was muddied. It needed to be fixed if that's what they were going to do. So you'll see a lot more of that. I think that's within all of their strengths. And you mentioned Devonta Smith. And I'm not trying to put a feather in my cap, but I covered college football before covering the hell out of your cap. You know, like I was a Heisman voter in 2020. I was covering LSU football and Alabama came to LSU and Devonta Smith beat them every which way in the slot, out wide in the backfield, all over the field. And I wrote a column after that was basically, devontae Smith should win the Heisman. And I voted for him to win the Heisman, and he won that. And Saquon Barkley says it himself. He thinks people forget that he won the Heisman and he doesn't bring that up himself. He really can do everything on the field, and I think in this system that they're moving toward, he really is someone who works all levels of the field, can work crossers, and I think would play really well off the play action. Because people remember the kill shot in the Super Bowl. Oh, yeah. Play action deep.

[James Palmer]

Yep. I'll just put a feather in my cap as well. I was at his pro day at Alabama, I remember, and I said, this guy, I think he could do everything on a football field. And now Nick Sirianni said that to me this week and wow, I called it all those years ago.

[Brooks Cabina]

There you go.

[James Palmer]

And Brooks called it, like, even before I did, which a couple of guys know what they're talking about here. With Jalen Hurts being the linchpin to that offense, what does he need to do differently? I know we always play to a quarterback strength, and I understand what you're saying, like, but we didn't see him run this past year. Is that a. Was that a Jalen Hurts decision? Was that a Kevin Batula decision? Are we going to see him get back to using his legs? Are there, you know, the middle grounds you need to find, like, the coach needs to adapt to the quarterback, but sometimes the quarterback needs to go like, well, I could improve this because this system allows me to do it. And that's a big part of what we're doing. I need to grow in these aspects. I do think Jalen has grown as a quarterback throughout the course of his career. I think he works his tail off. So what are we. What are we going to see maybe different from Jalen that he has to do to make all of this work from his side?

[Brooks Cabina]

From what I've covered with Jalen Hurts, I think the number one thing is trust in the system, in the coach. I talked from people who have coached with him, from Lincoln Riley to Kellen Moore in stories that I've written and through those stories, and then just a sense of being around him and talking to him like he is somebody. I think that people get a sense that, like, on a given week, because the way Nick Siri talks about it is like, he can do anything that you would go to him and he'd say, like, all right, we're running the triple option this week. And he'd be like, let's do it. That's not the sense I get. It's a, hey, I'm. Let's do this. And he will challenge those things. He will be like, I really want to understand what it is we're doing, because I know how good what I'm good at. And we need to meet the middle on this. And that can be a back and forth that takes, you know, time. And with all the offensive coordinators he'd had over the years and all the quarterback coaches he's had over the years, someone to come in with conviction and saying, this is what will work. Lincoln Riley told me this in a story I wrote during the super bowl run. Like, before he even recruited him to Oklahoma, it was like they spent hours on the phone, him asking, what are we going to do? And he hadn't even committed yet. So, like, to me, Sean Manion is like, you got to be in this. In this situation where you have conviction in what you're saying and hearing what Jalen Hurts believes he's good at, knows how to merge, and if it doesn't, to basically pitch him, why these strengths are there. And one of the things that I think stuck out to me, Howie Roseman mentioned this, that in his interview process with the things he wanted to do in the new system, he was matching film things that Jalen Hurts had already done over the past couple of years, and saying this, we're gonna expand this. He's good at. These are the things in the system. And if he does that to Jalen Hurts as well, in the things that we don't see so often. Like, I did a story about how over the middle, his volume is half that of some of the others that are in the elites. If he can take a window of that and say, hey, this is what you're good at. I've seen you do this, and this is why we want to do this. I think that's the next step, because people talk. The discourse around Jalen Hurts is a lot of, like, what can he do and what can't he do and what can he do better? And it's like, from watching it, that's fair. But I think fundamentally it's about trust and whether the person and the continuity that he's lacked for him to take the step and say, okay, let's do this. I think that's the number one thing in this.

[James Palmer]

I Love that. I love that perspective. It reminds me a little bit of a conversation I had with Sean Payton last year where we were just kind of talking about quarterback play and I was asking him like, hey, how high do you rank a quarterback's ability to understand what they can't do, right? And you know, like that's, that's kind of an interesting way to look at it because we always look at it from the other side. And he's like, that was Drew's biggest quality. Drew's best quality was like, no, no, I love that we're doing this, but I can't really do it that way. I just know my. Myself as a quarterback. Can we still accomplish it by doing something maybe in the manner in which I'm better at? And Sean be like, yeah, I think we can move this and we can do this. And it's more into what you're. It's exactly right. And so I think Jalen does actually have a pretty good sense of that. There's some quarterbacks that are not very good gauge of. Of where they are. I think Jalen's self awareness is one of his superpowers, in all honesty.

[Brooks Cabina]

I think you look back at the Chargers game last year, that was a sign of how willing he is to step out. And like there are games like the Vikings game where he went a lot under center and rolling play action that he had a perfect passer rating in that game, the Chargers game, he's doing a lot of throws are the middle. His. His interceptions were up, but he was pushing the game plan towards a point where they were in the overtime and had a chance to win. Obviously the interception at the end of the game, but he stepped out of things that he was normally doing and he was willing. So I think, I think that's a. I think that's a major thing people need to understand going into this with another system and another person that he's going to have to invest trust in. And I know he would prefer not to do that, but that's the circumstance that it just seems to be his albatross over in Philly. But. But to me, that's the perspective that I think is most important. That's awesome.

[James Palmer]

We could talk birds, we could talk Jalen hurts all day, but we got to keep this show moving. Mac, who do we have next? Is Jesse Newell rolling in? Oh, Jesse Newell.

[Brooks Cabina]

Coming up.

[James Palmer]

Talk a little Chiefs after this. More Scoop City coming up next.

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[James Palmer]

Scoop City at the Combine. James Palmer, Jesse Newell with me here. We're going to talk about the Kansas City Chiefs. Why wouldn't we, right?

[Carvana Spokesperson]

Big off season, weird off season, right?

[James Palmer]

Yeah, longer off season than normal.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

I'm not used to it.

[James Palmer]

No, I don't think anybody in the organization's used to it either.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

This is not right.

[James Palmer]

There was, you know, I ran. This is, this is what we do at the combine last night. We're out, we're having a good time running to Mike McDonald, who should be the guy that is, you know, the bell of the ball here, the super bowl winning head coach. And I'm like, mike, you should be enjoying this week. You should be just floating through Indianapolis with a Super bowl title and victory parade right, you know, right behind you here. And he goes, I look for a new offensive staff within six hours of that parade. Like we were interviewing people, like, there is no time. And I was like, welcome to the world of Andy Reid. And that's what him and Brett Veach have had to do each of these last several seasons. But a little more time here. Let's start with the draft because we are a combat we have a lot to get to but they are picking like you mentioned, it is different for Kansas City. It's usually the end of the first round is where we're seeing them making a selection number nine in this draft. Where are we going with a top 10 pick for the Kansas City Chiefs?

[Carvana Spokesperson]

You can tell me the last top 10 pick for the Chiefs, right?

[James Palmer]

I cann tell you that.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

2017, a guy by the name of Patrick Mahomes.

[James Palmer]

I know that guy. And they had to trade up to get him though. So they weren't originally in that spot. They had to move a great distance to get to Patrick Mahomes finally in

[Carvana Spokesperson]

a spot where you don't need to trade multiple first round draft picks to be able to go up and get that particular spot. Yeah. So you know we talk with Brett Ve, he loves to have his sort of base needs covered. So we'll know more about the Chiefs after free agency because we expect they're going to probably get a running back. We expect they're probably going to try to fill in some of the depths depth holds that they have even with some limited cap space and with some of the restrictions that they'll have. But going into it, it's just so funny. I remember talking to Brett a year ago at this time and they were trying to figure out left tackle, what are they going to do, how can they fix this. And he said, he joked with Andy Reid, he said well I know how to get a left tackle. Just suck for a year, get a top five pick and take the left tackle and anyway they end up with

[James Palmer]

one of the best executives in the game. Guys.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

Exactly. Well, they end up getting Josh Timmons and when healthy he played really well. But my point is like this is an asset they don't get. And you talked about the long off season which doesn't benefit them. But this sort of thing like they're usually 29, 30, 31, 32, waiting and like hoping other teams and some guys fall and now you get a crack at something that doesn't happen very often. The type of tackles that you don't get to see very often. But I still think for them, you know, it's a weird draft in that some of the top guys, some of the cleanest tape, if you will, is, you know, Jeremiah Love. It's Caleb Downs, it's these non premium positions, right? Yes.

[James Palmer]

I know you set a running back and this is the Kansas City Chiefs,

[Carvana Spokesperson]

but I'm telling you, Brett Beats never gets to draft a, an edge rusher up here in the top 10. He doesn't get to draft a. It might probably not interior line, but a wide receiver. That could be the type of wide receiver that they could get here. So you know this James, like you go to free agency right now, the Chiefs, there's a long list of running backs they could get that would be just fine in free agency. That's not a list of defensive interior players or edge rushers or wide receivers. Those guys are tough to get. So Brad Veach potentially has a chance to get a young player at a rookie contract that he can't get in free agency. So it would surprise me if they go away from premium position here just because it's been so long for them to be able to have this asset and it's so tough for them to get this in the open market.

[James Palmer]

I'm thinking about it. I mean, you obviously your pass rush for so many years was centered around Kris Jones and it has been. And I'm not writing Chris off by any stretch, but we all know where he has, where he's at in his career. He played a ton of snaps this past season and you saw how that kind of impacted him as well. I mean, I remember having a conversation with him and him telling me that exact fact. And so I do think edge is something that you can look at. Do you think one of the. As I talked to people earlier in Indy, it's kind of there's the big three and then there might be a gap. When you look at this, is there a chance one of those big three are available at 9? Because then if not, I don't know. If you do take the next guy

[Carvana Spokesperson]

at 9, it's really fascinating. So from my talks to people and seeing Ruben Bane, who's the one I think potentially, you know, I know the arm length stuff, but like I heard

[James Palmer]

he has short arms.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

T. Rex is what I heard it is.

[James Palmer]

It is the coach last night, coach last night. I'm not going near T. Rex.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

Ruben's like Will Campbell, my beer. Because the arm thing has become a thing with him. But he's really impressed teams and interviews from what I've heard. And then he was really impressive up there on the interview as well. I would think maybe his stock goes up, but that could be a guy potentially for the Chiefs. You know, Stacks loves going Inside, outside, with the versatility. He can help them out in multiple different ways. You know, you talk about Bailey, it's kind of interesting. Would he fit the Chiefs and like a 4,3 instead of like a 3,4 outside linebacker? You have to ask these questions for these teams. Like, it's not just edge rusher, it's like, how does that fit with your particular team? And so it's crazy. I'm gonna say this is crazy. You'll know it's crazy, James, because Brett Veach's whole history as GM is trade up, trade up, trade up, trade up. And right now he said something interesting at the podium yesterday. We said, said, hey, when you're picking 29 or 30, you wish you were 25. He's like, I'm picking nine. I wish I was picking four or five. Because he kind of sees like four to five. Like that would be more secure in that. So could the Chiefs, if some of these guys go off the board, could this be a year they would look, if another team wanted to come up, that they look to trade down and then get somebody in that mid first round range and then get more draft assets. Because we know this about the Chiefs, like, they are stars and scrubs. They pay their guys, they pay Creed Humphrey, Trey Smith, Patrick Mahomes, like Harrison, Bucker, they pay top of market for their guys. So to do that, you have to fill in with some guys that don't cost as much. So stock buying draft picks with this asset would not be a bad thing. But it is sort of fascinating how the draft lines up. I think draft edge, as you talked about, would be among the top on their list because of how last year played out. But will that guy fall to them? Will he be there? That's a really good question, but he's not. What are the Chiefs pivots?

[Zach Jackson]

Yeah.

[James Palmer]

An all too common aspect of the draft is I'd love to trade back. There's nobody looking to trade up and it might not be the case. Right. So that, that could be certainly a spot that, you know, listen, teams in the draft that I talk to are always. I'm always calling to see if I can move back. It's finding somebody to move up. And if there's no quarterback to move up for, it's usually quarterback and edge are the two probably most common things teams move up for in the draft. We'll see.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

We'll.

[Brooks Cabina]

That happens.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

I'd say the one to look for is tackle. You know, like a mauangoa fano. What those guys, if those all slipped and you potentially have your.

[James Palmer]

But why would they slip?

[Carvana Spokesperson]

That's the question. I mean, listen, we all do these mock drafts. They go over and over and for

[James Palmer]

tell everybody at home, because you and I, we know this stuff a little bit. What oftentimes happens in like say two years ago, There's a lot of quarterbacks. Quarterbacks always get pushed up in the draft. What does that do to the other players? Good players get pushed back down towards you. And it's something that. That teams love. If you don't have a quarterback, I mean, if you have a quarterback and teams are scrambling for them at the top, like, oh, let the good players come down to us. Like, this is great. That's not really the case in this draft. When you have one quarterback essentially there. There's no other team or quarterback at play in the mix of that top half, which I'm kind of curious how it is going to. Going to fall. There's other ways to build a team. Let's say it. You can bring guys back that people think are contemplating retirement. Did you hear anything from Brett Veach about Travis Kelce? Maybe a timeline that they might be looking at when they will know? Is there any information there, you think so?

[Carvana Spokesperson]

He talked about at the podium a little bit different this year than doing things. A little bit different than last year. If you remember, last year at this time, we asked Andy Reid and he really wouldn't say much about Travis. And then Brad Veach got up there and said, well, he's coming back, guys. Basically, like he announced it for him. So I think they want this year to give Travis his space, to be able to release however he wants to. Which potentially is going to be on his podcast, which you would assume because it's a very big podcast from what I hear. Yeah, smart play. Exactly.

[James Palmer]

Certain someone announce it. If you wanted big numbers, that would

[Carvana Spokesperson]

be even, even bigger. Jason's a very popular guy.

[James Palmer]

That's what I was thinking about. I was thinking about Jason. Yeah, I was thinking about Bo Allen.

[Zach Jackson]

All right, go ahead.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

The one difference between last year and this year is that last year he was under contract. So the decision was, do you want to come back? If so, here's what you're playing for. It's a little more complicated this year because we just talked about the chief salary cap issues and how they have to get some restructurings done, have to make some cuts to potentially get under this number. And now if Travis comes back, you have to negotiate a contract for him. And what does that look like? What. What Would that look like. And, you know, do you think he

[James Palmer]

cares about the number?

[Carvana Spokesperson]

So that was the argument I made. I mean, I think his agent does. And I think potentially we've heard guys in the past, like the Patrick Mahomes of the world said, I want to get paid a lot because I want to help out future quarterbacks. I don't want to give back money that would hurt them in the future. But to your point, I mean, I think how much of, like, Tom Brady's legacy was like, oh, he always gave back to the Patriots so that they could win.

[James Palmer]

He was never the highest paid quarterback at any given time of his career.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

And if there's ever a person out there who should not worry about money and should care about legacy and how he's remembered, like, Travis Kelsey is the perfect, like, intersection of that where you'd say, if he takes less money, he will be beloved by Chief stance. Everybody will have this thought of him going out is like, he tried one more time to go win a Super bowl, and he did this for the Kansas City Chiefs. Now, if I'm his agent, am I telling him that? No, no, that's not the conversation. But what. What is that number? And I think on the open market, you can see some things online that would say he's worth 14 to 17 million. Some would say he's like, we're 7 to 10. But for the Chiefs, this is. This is complicated math. I mean, 14 is really eating into your budget with what you have to potentially come back to. So this one's a little bit more complicated than last year. I still think at this point, I would expect him to be back with the Chiefs next year and give it one more run with Patrick Mahomes and not go out the way they did last year at 6 and 11. But the scenario here is just a little bit more complicated than a year ago.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, and speaking of complicated, I don't know what the language is of a prenup or not a prenup. I'm not sure how wealthy Travis is going to be. No, I'm just kidding. Listen. You are right. And listen, we just saw it recently with Aaron Rodgers. He signed in Pittsburgh for well below what people would think that he would sign for. And so it is done. And I do believe talking to people in Kansas City over the last couple weeks, they still believe Travis can certainly play. They really do. And I think there was actually a little bit of a thought that they got away from him at times, maybe at key times as well, where it was like, no no, he still can be maybe a focal point at times. He's not Travis of old, but maybe we should remember that this guy understands space better than anybody on the planet. Him and Patrick, the way they work. Speaking of guys that can understand space and create it, there's a certain wide receiver that everybody's been talking about, and that's Tyreek Hill. Obviously made his bones with Patrick Mahomes and that group in Kansas City. Do you see a reunion? I don't think it's in the near future, to my understanding at all, because health is still a. A while away. But is this something that the Chiefs could, could look into? Maybe he's available for the second half of the season. There's some people that believe that, that he. You might be able to get him in your building the back half of 2026.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

It's complicated, right?

[James Palmer]

I mean, you like to stay complicated, Jesse.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

Everything's complicated. Here's the reality. Tyreek, from what we've seen on social media from him, he wants to be back with the Chiefs. He said that he's basically come out and told the team, if you're ready, I'm ready, sort of thing. And you would think that if that's the case, he probably doesn't care too much about the money since he got paid from Miami. Now, I asked Andy Reid about this last week at his press conference and he basically, his thought was sort of, is he healthy yet? And he talked about he's due for another surgery, he has to get rehab. This would not be a thing until probably the second half of this particular season.

[James Palmer]

He played in 26.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

If you play.

[James Palmer]

Some people, they think I've talked to that think he may not play in 2020.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

It was a serious. I mean, we guys, we all saw it. It was a. Yeah, we saw it.

[James Palmer]

Jesse, thanks for bringing the visual back up.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

We all saw. I'm sorry, everyone, but there's just more to it. The off the field stuff, you know, we know that's a part of what he does, and the Chiefs already have right now. This is the specific scenario they have. We know that she Rice is caught up in more off field stuff. And not only would that be, you know, a couple guys that you potentially have on your team that you're trying to navigate these things with, but they're in the same room together and the same position group. And so how much does that impact if the Chiefs would want to have a reunion with Tyreek Hill? So Andy basically said, when I asked him the question, he said, we know as much as you guys do. We monitor these things. We talk about everything. There's nothing going on as of right now as far as communication. Tyree came back to Kansas City. I think some of his kids live there. So there was some scuttlebutt about hey, his photos in Kansas City, what's going on. But you know, more that sort of thing that going on with him. But I guess we'll see where it goes. I would be surprised if it happened, but I can understand why people would say, hey, this is natural reunion. There's part of this too that you heard Brett Veach at the podium yesterday say, hey, the last couple years were about maintenance with the Chiefs. This is more about a rebuild. And there is a kind of a thought as well, like if you are going to truly rebuild this thing up and move forward, maybe Tyreek is not part of that plan. That's more trying to chase the past of what you've done previously. And who knows if his speed comes back as well, if he'll be as effective of a player as he was with the Dolphins and obviously with the Chiefs before that. But it's a complicated, I'll use it again, complicated scenario with the Chiefs right now and I would probably be more surprised if it happened than it didn't. But I understand why people would ask the question and say is this thing going to happen or not?

[Brooks Cabina]

I love it.

[James Palmer]

A lot going on with with the Kansas City Chiefs who are a regular participant in the Super Bowl. But not so fast, my friend. For this past super bowl, can they get back there? We'll see. I would say it's probably complicated. All right, Jesse, Appreciate it. One of the more complicated individuals I've had is the pleasure to sit down with here at the Athletic Good senior buddy.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

Appreciate it, James.

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[James Palmer]

All right, Joined now by Zach Jackson, talking about the Cleveland Browns. I mentioned to you when you sat down and we started just shooting the breeze here, Todd Monken gets announced head coach. Okay. Kind of out of left field. Has your perception from when you found out the news that, that he was going to be the head coach to now we're, you know, we working through the combine. Same different.

[Zach Jackson]

I would say it's same because he's gonna have to be a miracle worker.

[James Palmer]

Okay. Okay.

[Zach Jackson]

He's a likable guy. He's blunt. That's what we want, right?

[James Palmer]

Yep.

[Zach Jackson]

He's high energy. He should be excited about this job. You know, they don't come around. He's done his whole career. He was in Cleveland for one year. We didn't know him really well. It was only one year. It was not a real fun year. Right. It was the year they crashed and burned. I think Freddie had fun, but that's probably for a different podcast. So. Yeah, look, Todd believes in this, this vision. We on the outside are both trying to see what that vision is and trying to buy it. And frankly, part of the reason we're not buying it, and frankly, that a lot of people aren't that excited about Todd Monken is what we have seen just is hard sell.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Right.

[Zach Jackson]

The whole offensive line's leaving, the quarterback situation's a wreck, and the receiving core is generously bottom three. This offense stinks and has stunk and they chose to make Kevin Stefanski the scapegoat for it and they didn't win. They were unwatchable on offense. Yes, but they just had no dudes and they have fewer now because all the offensive linemen are leaving.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

Do that.

[James Palmer]

Who is it? All five are gone.

[Zach Jackson]

They have six guys who are free agents. And so I don't know. You know, Joel Batonio's dropping some hints that he wants to keep playing. I don't know where he stands. You know, Wyatt Teller's definitely leaving. Jack Conklin's definitely leaving. Ethan Pochic is injured and won't be signing anywhere immediately. And I can't imagine Cam Robinson's coming back just based on the way he played. Tevin Jenkins is also a free agent. He might be back. I mean, he's a guy they brought in last year because he can play multiple positions, because, you know, he's played when he's been healthy, he's been a good player. So, yeah, if they had a game today, do you want me to go over who the starters would be?

[James Palmer]

Yes, I do, actually.

[Brooks Cabina]

Okay.

[Zach Jackson]

Whippler would be the starting center. He's been a backup. He's under contract for one more year. KT Leviston would be the starting left tackle. They acquired him for a 2028 seventh round pick last August.

[James Palmer]

Okay.

[Zach Jackson]

Dejuan Jones, who's been good when he's played but all three seasons on, would be the right tackle, Tevin Jenkins, assuming he's not on the team. So I can't say. So they wouldn't have a left guard and the right guard would be Zach Zenter, who's been on the team two years and never even dresses on game days.

[Brooks Cabina]

Okay.

[Zach Jackson]

So that's who it would be. So that's why they're in the market here and everywhere. Offensive linemen.

[James Palmer]

Yeah, 100% they are.

[Zach Jackson]

Trade free agency wherever you get.

[James Palmer]

Exactly. However you put that together, how do you see them? Because when you're in a position like that, it doesn't come along honestly, ever. But you want to do it the right way. You want to have your team built in a manner in which it's sustainable, but you need bodies at the same time. How do you find that balance between both of those doing this with the new coaching regime?

[Zach Jackson]

Yeah, I think you have to go long term. And I think you probably have to say simply, we're going to draft our tackles pretty high. Maybe not six, but maybe. Right. And then we're going to find the other guys. Later round picks, waiver wire, later levels of free agency. You know, if there's a veteran offensive lineman that has been priced out of his team or has been replaced by a better young player and he's available for a late round Pick. The Browns are going to explore that because they have to. And that same goes for wide receiver.

[Brooks Cabina]

Yeah.

[James Palmer]

Where do you see them going at 6?

[Zach Jackson]

I see it's tackle probably, but it has to be tackle or wide receiver. There's just no other option.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

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[Zach Jackson]

Like, and I hate to say, especially about the Browns, that there's no other option but, like, this best player available thought. Or they could take a defensive player and add to their strength. They just can't. There's just no offensive tackles. Jerry Judy has had good moments in his career, but he just had one of the awful years of all time. Right. And, like, there's nobody else there in that receiving core.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

So.

[Zach Jackson]

Harold Fannin is a unique player and he's a tight end by position.

[James Palmer]

He really is.

[Zach Jackson]

But he's going to be awesome when he gets in a real offense, defense, tight end, wide receiver, fullback, quarterback. He did all those things. Right. But they need help everywhere. And. And once they get better, you know, Harold will be even better. He's 21 years old. Yeah, but, man, I don't, you know, all the rest of that group, the past catching group. Njoku's leaving. He hasn't been good in two years. And, you know, Isaiah Bond is probably an NFL player, but we don't know for sure.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Yeah.

[Brooks Cabina]

So there's Eliza.

[James Palmer]

Sounds so depressing.

[Zach Jackson]

It's every day. That's why I look so.

[James Palmer]

Day of my life. Oh, my goodness. Listen, but. But who would you take receiver at 6?

[Brooks Cabina]

I.

[James Palmer]

Maybe. Maybe one's gone before you, right? There's a chance. Yeah, but who. Who fits what Todd Monkin wants to do?

[Zach Jackson]

Well, people are fascinated by two people, and one of them is Tyson because his brother plays for the Cleveland Cavaliers.

[James Palmer]

Yes, he does.

[Zach Jackson]

And everybody knows that he's just a big, fast dude. And the other one is who played for Ohio State. Now, he was never the number one wide receiver, but he's got some skills, though.

[James Palmer]

He certainly does.

[Zach Jackson]

We're all.

[James Palmer]

T. Higgins is the comp that I keep hearing from Tiggins.

[Zach Jackson]

I think that's fair.

[James Palmer]

Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Yeah.

[Zach Jackson]

I'm interested to see Carnell here and see how big he really is. I did see him play in person last year, but it was in row, like 146. I wasn't exactly scouting.

[James Palmer]

Oh, no big deal. Let's go.

[Zach Jackson]

So those two come to mind. You know, I know there's a lot of buzz generating for Makai Lemon, but they pick at 6 and at 24, so probably they're going to get a tackle and a wide receiver. Are they going to trade down? Are they going to be in the quarterback mix? Is there some surprise there? Maybe. But like, you could say, with a pretty fair percentage, strong percentage, they're going to start the draft, tackle wide receiver, and then what's the quarterback situation? Who else is available? Where else do you go?

[James Palmer]

Yeah, let's talk about that quarterback situation right now, because obviously there's been some reports out there that was like, oh, they're looking at Malik Willis or they're looking at Ty Simpson. So I started asking around inside the building, and you know what the response back was? Yeah, we are, because we have to look at all of our options. It was almost like, you know, I'm not sure why you guys are making a big deal about this. We have to look at all the avenues that we can go back at quarterback, and obviously the two guys on the. On the roster have a chance as well, I would assume. Does Deshaun Watson have a legitimate opportunity to win this job? Does that exist?

[Zach Jackson]

Yeah, it does. But. But to me, that is the most counterproductive, embarrassing thing.

[James Palmer]

Very true. But I also love that I asked about Deshaun Watson before Shador Sanders, which is like, probably something nobody's done on any show.

[Zach Jackson]

Yeah. So. Okay, we can start there. Look, we know why the Browns are here, and we also know that he's only on the team this year because they cannot afford to cut him.

[James Palmer]

Yes, correct.

[Zach Jackson]

And so they.

[James Palmer]

The cap hit is as astronomical.

[Zach Jackson]

They have to redo his number to assure him his roster spot and open up space to go do this business that they need to do, and that's fine. They were never going to play him on that number, even if he was healthy and playing out. But he's only signed for one more year.

[Progressive Insurance Announcer]

James.

[Zach Jackson]

He has never taken over the building as a great player or dynamic leader. He has not played football at all since October of 24. And we saw how he played the last time he had a long break, which was horribly okay. So even if he would come in and play, whether by force or by winning the job, which wouldn't say a lot about anybody else, like the level at which he would have to perform and the team would have to perform to justify that as being best for the future or winning anything, it's just unreachable. Based on the 19 games we've seen of Deshaun Watson, he has played three good games. I mean, it's been awful. I remember where I was when the trade was made, and every minute it's been awful. And I don't work in the building. So I'm just there five days a week.

[James Palmer]

It is fascinating, though. I mean, it's going to go down as one of the most wild things we've seen in NFL history. Because if you go back and I was talking to somebody the other night about this, you go back and watch that last year in Houston, he was incredible.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

Sure.

[James Palmer]

I mean, incredible. They were awful. And I think he had, like, a 70% completion percentage and led the NFL in passing. It was. It was unbelievable. And they were just bad.

[Zach Jackson]

Yeah.

[James Palmer]

So nobody saw this coming. I mean, there were other teams that were in the mix. Let's be honest. It was not. The Browns were not, you know, they were not going back and forth this against themselves.

[Zach Jackson]

Right.

[James Palmer]

There were three teams that all thought they were going to get them.

[Zach Jackson]

They were probably bidding against themselves over a certain number, which is how they got them.

[James Palmer]

Possibly.

[Zach Jackson]

They didn't have to beat those other.

[James Palmer]

I remember getting text messages from, like, people inside. I think we got them. And then, like, the Saints. I think we got them. I'm like, the Falcons, I think we got them. I'm like, y' all can't have them.

[Zach Jackson]

Well, he's tell the Browns no. The day before. I know that they got him.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Yeah.

[Zach Jackson]

Okay.

[James Palmer]

The other question, Quarterback in Shador Sanders. I was. I was told as most recent as yesterday. No, our plan is not to go in 2026 with just Shador and see what happens. That. That's not the plan we want.

[Zach Jackson]

Yeah.

[James Palmer]

That might be what ends up happening, though, that they just see what he can.

[Zach Jackson]

Yeah.

[James Palmer]

Do in year two.

[Zach Jackson]

I think they're in on Malik Willis. I think they have to be right.

[James Palmer]

Exactly.

[Zach Jackson]

They have to explore every option. I think what Malik Willis has done and can do, because he's still very much a projection fish. What Todd Monken would like to do. And it fits, you know, what wins in a lot of places. Malik would be your starter. Otherwise, you have a competition, and Shador is one with an asterisk or with just until he's not right. And that. That would include. They could trade for Anthony Richardson. They could trade for Tanner McKee. They could draft Garrett Nussmeier. They could draft Ty Simpson. They could do all of these things and have a competition. Last year they tried to have a competition. It really wasn't. It was kind of came off like the plan was never. Was just kind of made up on the fly because, you know, we all remember that they weren't even going to draft Shador Sanders and they drafted another quarterback that was a complete flop. And then they muddied everything up by taking Shadors Sanders.

[James Palmer]

So is Dylan Gabriel just like when you said a complete flop? Does he even have a chance to be this target?

[Zach Jackson]

He's just overwhelmed out there. He's just. He's just not big enough.

[James Palmer]

Okay, yeah, all right.

[Zach Jackson]

We saw it like, you know,

[Whole Foods Market Announcer]

so.

[Zach Jackson]

Yeah. So is it going to be an outside guy? Is it going to be a true three man, four man competition for a certain number of months and then whittled down to a two man? Is Shador going to take it? And we. We don't know. Shador did some impressive things and we're grading on a low bar here. We've talked a lot about the history here. When I sit at practice or stand at practice and I watch Shador, I see throws that haven't been made a lot. Okay, okay. Now, he got in the game and we saw a guy who can do some things. We saw a guy who has a long, long way to go. And he was bad, frankly, the last month of the season. Now his supporting cast was bad. Yeah, the season was tanked. But in every game but one, he had a drive, a moment, a quarter, something that said, hey, he's got a chance. And I, and I, I think that they really believe that. So like I said, I think Watson is last resort only. I think Shador is number one, but the least comfortable, safe number one could ever be. Okay, and maybe on March 9th, the whole order changes. Maybe on March 15th, maybe on April 25th, maybe three more times through the summer. Because that's what the Browns do. 12 guys have started since the start of the 24 season, 23 season. Right. And some of those have been back and forth.

[James Palmer]

Yes, they have.

[Zach Jackson]

Like Bailey, Zappy, Dorian Thompson, Robinson.

[James Palmer]

You're bringing up the names, baby. Let's go. Yeah.

[Zach Jackson]

42 starters since 1999.

[James Palmer]

Do they financially, are they comfortable with Malik Willis if the number gets to what some people are thinking this could get to because of the limited resources at the quarterback position.

[Zach Jackson]

They backlog contract anyway. So, yeah, they're going to create enough temporary flexibility. And really, after this year, they do open up a bunch more cap space. They don't have a ton of players because they have so many guys leaving right now. And like everywhere in the NFL, more than three years is a long time for so much change that they had In Cleveland before 2020, in Barry and Stefanski, hardly anybody made it three years. Well, they got guys. Najoku, eight year eight, nine years. Teller six years seven years like that, that are leaving, that have. That have been there, even potion, they got him in the second wave of free agency, and he was a good starter, good leader, good player for multiple seasons, and he's not there. Jack Conklin's been on the team since 2020. All these guys are leaving at once and they haven't. Like I said, they've drafted one offensive lineman in the last two years, and he hasn't played at all.

[James Palmer]

All right, before we go, Zach, can you give me something I can tell all of my Cleveland Browns fans because I have a lot of them going to Ohio State. Something that you're excited about? Because there goes Todd Monken right there walking by.

[Zach Jackson]

I mean, I'm excited about Harold Fannin.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

He's.

[Zach Jackson]

He's that good. And like I said, when I say he's not a tight end, I'm not dissing him. I'm just. He's not the guy going to have his hand in the ground and you're going to run 30 plays behind him, like you're going to be able to use him forever. And they started that last August and it was like, man, is he ahead of schedule or could they just not have anybody else? And it was both. So now he got out there and did it. He's just a natural playmaker. I mean, five years ago he was a high school safety in Canton, Ohio, and then he played in the Mac, right? And like, he put up these ungodly numbers. And a lot of people were like, well, that's because they threw him a ball every time and he was bigger than ball of the linebackers and safeties and he just killed. And then he got in the AFC north and it was like, oh, my gosh, this guy's open. So, you know, Shador over targeted him. It was kind of a sign of growth. Like, you got to know to trust.

[Carvana Spokesperson]

Yeah.

[Zach Jackson]

So, like Isaiah likely, I think is a. Is a great comparison. I think Harold's got a higher ceiling probably. And get some other guys, get him in there. Get some, you know, real threats on the outside and a quarterback that he can work with for more than three weeks at a time. And I think he's got a really, really good player there.

[James Palmer]

Okay. All right. I like that one. I was breaking down. It's funny because I was breaking down tight ends with Greg Olson before the draft last year.

[Zach Jackson]

Pretty good guy.

[James Palmer]

I think it's a good guy that I wanted to, you know, pick his brain on it. And we were going through all these different tight ends and we all know about the class that last year was, right? And we're going through them. We get to Harold fan, and I'm like, greg, I'm not gonna lie to you. I've heard some people talk about this kid like. Like they're in absolute love with him. And Craig goes, I don't see it. I don't see it. Well, Greg, guess what. Yeah. Zach Jackson sees it. He sees it. And it was a really, really fun year to watch him play. And I do get a little bit. I don't want to knock Greg. Obviously, he knows way more about football than I do. It was just a funny conversation because we never really know how. That's why they're called prospects, how this is going to go. And he figured out the NFL game quickly. He figured out how to do it. Does he look like a Colston Loveland or Tyler Warren? No, he doesn't, Honestly, the way he runs and moves, but he is effective and impactful and catches everything. Oh, my God.

[Zach Jackson]

It's just so natural after the catch.

[James Palmer]

Right.

[Zach Jackson]

There's nothing flashy about it, but, like, smaller guys, and a lot of them are compared to him. Like, he throws them to the ground. Like, you can tell that in his background is defense. A little quarterback, a little running back, and he just happens to be six' three, six' four, and they throw him the ball, and he's really good.

[James Palmer]

I love it. Okay. Zach's gonna take everybody through the Browns in 2027. He's going to be there every step of the way, whether you like it or not.

[Zach Jackson]

You're there, we're there. We're ready. You know, for Browns fans, like, this is the season. Right. I totally believe that they're going to make a run at Malik Willis.

[James Palmer]

Will it work?

[Zach Jackson]

Will it not? I don't know, but it's going to be a long process of rebuilding the offensive line, and every addition they make on the offensive side is going to be interesting.

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

Yeah.

[Zach Jackson]

Because there's an opportunity there for all those guys. And, you know, people, like I said, people know Carnell Tate. They know some of these names. I don't think really know the offensive tackle names, but as long as they pick the right ones, you'll. You'll know them in time.

[James Palmer]

I think they don't know the names because they're hard to pronounce this year.

[Zach Jackson]

They are.

[James Palmer]

The tackle names are hard to pronounce this year. Sure. They're right there, Zach. Appreciate it, brother.

[Zach Jackson]

All right, thanks, guys.

[James Palmer]

This is one of those moments where you just envy Zach Jackson that he covers the Cleveland Browns so well for us here at the Athletic. Want to thank him. Want to thank Jesse Newell. Also want to thank Brooks Cabina. Al Outstanding conversation about Jalen. Hurts right there at the top of the show. Make sure you always like and subscribe to Scoop City. So much off season content here on the show. But again, it's not off season. There's never an off season in the NFL. I'm James Palmer. Take it easy.

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[James Palmer]

Par le tu francais?

[Zach Jackson]

Hablas espanol?

[James Palmer]

Par l'? Italiano?

[Guest or Additional Commentator]

If you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acasta spelled B A B-B-E-L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply.