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Scoop City: Inside The NFL
Super Bowl Preview: Why Vrabel vs Macdonald is the chess match to watch on Sunday
01:01:34
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- [00:00]
James Palmer
We will answer your call as soon as we can.
- [00:03]
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- [02:18]
James Palmer
I know a couple of quote unquote insiders who like tell like every single thing under twitter.
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Chad Graff
And then when the one that you're right that was right on.
- [02:25]
James Palmer
They're like see I told you guys.
- [02:26]
Chad Graff
I've been saying all along, 27, 24.
- [02:29]
James Palmer
90 different 90 different ways bro. Oh it's scoop City on a Thursday. I'm James Palmer. Don't forget to like and subscribe because remember, we're the only show that takes you inside all of these facilities across all 32 teams. Well, guess what? There's just two teams remaining. So our Thursday road trip is going to go to both of the guys that are embedded with the two teams in the Super Bowl. We're going to have a lengthy conversation with Michael Shawn Dugar, who's been embedded with the Seattle Seahawks. He's going to tell us everything we need to know about Sam Darnold and company. And then we're going to head over and spend some time with Chad Graf, who has been embedded with those New England Patriots. What are their predictions? We'll also get to an unbelievably interesting conversation with Jerry Brewer that him and I had about the lack of diversity in these hires as we had 10 head coach openings and we did not have a single black head coach hired. What does that mean for the NFL moving forward? We discussed it. We'll talk about it in this show. But this is our Thursday road trip. So let's get on the move and head out to Northern California. All right. We start our Scoop city road trip on a Thursday for the final time this year with Michael Shawn Dugar. And I got to ask you, where are you right now? Set the scene, Mike. Like what? How has the week been? Take us to where you're at and the way your week has transpired so far.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
My week has been very good. I'm from Seattle, so born and raised. I've never lived outside the state of Washington. So just the idea of being at the super bowl when, you know, my hometown team is here, it's pretty cool, you know, independent of like any reporter or journalism stuff. You know, I'm still just the first thing ever that happened to me was I got my name when I was born. And then I was born in a Seattle hospital. So being a Seattle kid is cool. That's one. And as far as where I'm at now, I'm at the third floor of this media workroom in downtown. It's Thursday, so the fans have started to show up in droves. It feels like they're lined up outside. They're basically waiting at each door for someone famous to come out so they can take pictures or get something signed. No one for me. I just saw a crowd, actually, while I was walking here right outside of Chipotle, where I'm going to go after we're done. I was like, who is that why is everyone crowded on this guy? It was Aaron Jones, I believe he was just getting swarmed, walking through. So there's a lot of that going on, though, you know, And I've been on Radio Row. Radio Row is on the first floor. I'm on the third floor. Just walking around, seeing a bunch of famous people. Everybody's podcast is here, it feels like. And I've been running to a lot of Seahawks alums that's been cool, you know, old guys who are retired. But then even guys like, I ran into Shelby Harris. You know, he plays for the Browns, but played for the Seahawks. Right. He was in the Russell Wilson trade that kind of got this started. Had a good time seeing Luke Wilson, former Seahawks tight end. Hadn't seen him actually, since we did an interview for my book, you know, a couple years ago. So just stuff like that, it's kind of the who's who of everyone. But for me, it's been cool to just see people I already know. And then the other thing that's been cool is I've been going around asking everybody in the media, how many Super Bowls have you been to? You know, I'm trying to see who's got the. Got the most. I think right now, the leader in the clubhouse is Jared Bell of USA Today. I think this is number 38, he said. Which is just crazy because this is my first one.
- [05:51]
James Palmer
I love Jared. He's the best, man. He is absolutely the best. I always thought. I think it was like, him and Andrea Kramer are the two that I believe have a couple of the longest streaks out there. I think Andrew is right up there with him as. As well. Silver's up there, too.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
I think Silver said 31.
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James Palmer
Okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I thought Silver's there. Jared's at 39, man. That's pretty good.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
Yeah, he was. Jared was like, yeah, man. I was at Super Bowl 22. It's like, what you're like, Super Bowl 22? Yeah. He was like. I was at 22, 24, 26. And then everyone since, you know, most people have been in, like, the teens or. Diana said 12x her last night. So, yeah, it's been cool. Jared, so far, is the. Is the leader. It's been cool.
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James Palmer
38. I'm at nine. I gotta get. I got out my number nine. Okay.
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Chad Graff
There you go.
- [06:38]
James Palmer
Not bad. That's not bad. All right, we gotta get to these current guys. Even though I wanted to talk to you about Shelby Harris, because one of my favorite people to interview as well, one of the. One of the guys that just made personality for days give you quotes. Nick even worry. This is the story, it seems like. Give me everything that you know, health wise and everything you've gathered, because this is an extremely important piece to this Super Bowl.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
Yeah. To show the gravity of Nick's ankle injury that happened in Wednesday's practice. Practice is closed, so we can't watch. I didn't learn until the pool report came out that actually someone does get to watch in the event something like that happens so they can make a pool report. You know, first time super bowl rookie knowledge there for me, I didn't know that. So that was cool. We got that he got hurt Wednesday. And so the setup at the Seahawks media session thing in San Jose at the Convention center is the same. Like nine guys are at podiums with their names on them and then everybody else just at these tables. Kind of like the old combine setup or very similar to how the combine is set up.
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James Palmer
So Nick.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
Yeah, so Nick for the first two days was one of the table guys. He's got the little placards. You can just walk up, sit there, interview him, walk off. Well, today Nick was a podium guy and he had probably the largest crowd at his podium outside of Jackson, Smith and Jigba, whose crowd has been massive every day. I haven't even got a chance to say hello to Jax because it's just been too many people swarming him. So I bring that up to show you how big of a deal it is that they knew so many people would want to know about nick's ankle. Mike McDonald said he rolled it in practice and that he expects him to play. That's the big and most important thing. He will play. And Nick talked to him, said, hey, you're going to play. He's like, yeah, I feel good, feel good to go on Sunday. And I was curious, is it the same ankle that he injured in Week one? You know, because Nick had missed like a good chunk of the season to start the year, I believe, like four games because of an ankle injury. So when a guy injures the same ankle or same knee or same shoulder, you just always want to know if it's the same thing he said.
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James Palmer
Yes.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
So the same ankle that he hurt in Week one is the one that he's dealing with now. But from what I've gathered, knowing Nick since he got drafted is unless that ankle somehow detaches itself from his leg and runs back to Seattle, he is going to play in this game. He says he won't be limited in this game. I believe that's probably accurate. I mean, think about it. You know, this James, this is week what, 22 or something? Nobody's okay. You know, everybody's dealing with something. Shoulder, calf, knee, thigh. And I think Nick, when he said that he won't have any limitations in part because of adrenaline, he was saying I'll be no worse than I would have been, you know, in week 22 anyway. And that I do believe, like I know he's going to play. I don't believe he'll be limited out there because he's right. Once those juices get flowing, the camera bulbs start flashing. You know, they do a little jet flyover. You know, he's just going to feel. It's going to feel like a normal, normal game. So he will play. He is hurt. But the good news is not going to miss the game.
- [09:26]
James Palmer
Okay, I. The injury, that's great news because the injury made my, the wheels in my head start going and I'm going. Both quarterbacks, Jackson Smith and Jigba. Is Nick even worry the third most important person in this game?
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Chad Graff
Ooh, that.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
That's fun. Yeah, definitely. Two quarterbacks and then jacks and after that it is, it is a fun one. Leonard Williams has a really argument as well because as Nick's the skeleton key for the defense on Seattle side. But Leo is probably still their best player and you just don't want to lose your best player. And interior rush is just so hard to deal with. And I know that it's the Patriots tackles that have probably had the toughest time in the postseason. But when you watch the Seahawks defense, they run so many games and stunts up front that they are getting Leo on tackles, they're getting Byron Murphy on tackles, they're getting D. Law on guards. He's faster than guards. Right. And quicker than them. Maybe go Leo and then maybe, maybe Nick after that. But Nick certainly for a rookie is probably a top five most important guy in Super Bowl 60.
- [10:31]
James Palmer
Yeah, that's what I started thinking about. I'm going, this guy is like, I want you to make sure you drove that home for everybody. Because this is a. Like you mentioned, the skeleton key is a great way to put it. Linchpin of the way they play defense in the way that they want to play defense. Specific skill set that he has allows them to do that. You mentioned all those guys up front, Drake May's legs and mobile quarterbacks. I don't think Seattle's played a ton of them this year. They've played a handful. I would say what's your take on being able to or what Mike's approach would specifically be, especially maybe if they go with, like, six offensive linemen. You got to keep an eye on what Drake's going to do, you know, in terms of his mobility. How do you think, you know, Mike's going to kind of scheme against to make sure that that doesn't hurt him? He's got 66 and 65 yards and in two games in this postseason.
- [11:19]
Michael Shawn Dugar
Yeah. So mobile quarterbacks fall into different buckets, right? You got the guys who. They're part of the run game, like Lamar, the Seahawks play Jaden Daniels this year. He probably falls into that bucket. Kyler Murray falls a little bit into that bucket. And then there's guys who move to throw, you know, prime Aaron Rodgers is a really good example. I always considered him a mobile quarterback because just keeping him in the pocket was not going to get the job done. He moves out there, flicks his Wrist, that ball 60 yards over your deep safety's head, right? And so they have played like Baker Mayfield, I think, falls in that same category. Like, Baker will run, can lose his helmet in the B gap and still try to run 10 yards or run someone over. He's just kind of psycho. And Brock Purdy, I think, falls in it. Brock is very mobile. We saw that in a divisional round where he was running, running around. Cam Ward kind of has that similar style where it's like, man, we just can't get these slippery. It's the slippery guys. So they faced it a little bit. You know, there's somebody else that I'm blanking on that they faced, too.
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James Palmer
So.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
Oh, yeah, they played Kyler once this year, so they have. My point is they have seen a little bit of guys who can move like Drake, and the plan is always the same. Just stay disciplined in your rush lanes, discipline in your rush plan. Don't get selfish, don't lose, contain as whether you're an edge guy or you're nickel pressuring. The plan has been generally the same for all of these guys who can move. And I don't see that being a huge thing that they got to adjust to. You know, they're used to it. Again, this is a conference with Kyler Murray in it, you know, conference with Brock Purdy in it. I know there are different types of mobile, but like I was saying, they present something where you can't just expect to keep them in a pocket. You got to play for the first play and then play the next play. And there might even be a third Play. You know, the only reason that the Niners beat the Seahawks in week one is because Brock scrambled all the way across the field, threw up a Predator. Jake Tonjes in week one, that was basically the third, like, play within that sequence there to end the game. So they're used to it. Drake's probably got the strongest arm combined with mobility of everyone I mentioned. Maybe him and Baker are in that same bucket. So they're used to it. They know how to handle it. You know, just rush with discipline. And on the back end, just cover your butt off for however long you need to.
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James Palmer
Yeah, exactly. And you know what? This group hasn't had to cover for very long, Mike. Right. Honestly, they've been really good at. You mentioned that interior portion of the pass rush and them being able to bring pressure and get pressure on a quarterback without having to blitz a whole bunch. And with that thought, I always look at like, all right, where does a quarterback want to go quick with the ball? Where are his safety valves? Where are his quick targets? When you're able to, you know, pressure him and pressure the way that Seattle's been able to do that. How do you feel Seattle looks at those, like, underneath stuff? Whether that's, I don't know. Is that Diggs in the slot? Is that Hunter Henry? You know, what's your take on. On when they do get pressure, where they think Drake might want to go with the football to get it out of his hands and find ways to get those yards when you do get home pretty quickly.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
Yeah. So the Seahawks like to, you know, put seven guys on the line and say, all right, sort it out. Are we coming? Are we not? Is Ernest Jones coming? Is Nikki Moore coming? Is Devin Witherspoon coming? Is Julian Love going to be blitzing you? And so you have to have answers for that. You have to have your hot answers. They've been good at that this year. Josh McDaniels is probably a top five play caller in the NFL. Very, very, very good, you know, tried and true system that's worked for a long time with multiple different quarterbacks. And so the hot answers can depend. You know, some guys are like, you know what? I'm getting it out quick. And it's a screen, you know, a lot of really good screen teams. Sean Payton is probably my favorite, like, screen designer to beat pressure. You know, saw him use a little bit of that against the Patriots with Stidham actually in the conference championship.
- [14:47]
Chad Graff
I.
- [14:48]
James Palmer
My guess they had a couple. They didn't. Yeah, they did. Yep.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
Yeah, they were Good. They were good. Zero cover, zero answers. But I think that the Patriots actually want to go for broke a little bit more. They're a more explosive offense. Very similar to me to like the Rams, where they're trying to go bombs away. Like, yeah, we can do a 10 play drive, but if you're going to pressure, where can we bomb this thing? You know, and you saw that in a conference championship game, like, they were not afraid to throw deep at like Patrick Surtan. You know, they want to take their shots. And if you pressure well now you're probably leaving some guys out to dry in coverage. And the Seahawks are very comfortable trusting their guys, just like Denver was in that game. So I see a lot of shots in those pressure situations. Like, okay, you're bringing Ernest Jones. All right, cool. Where's Booty? Is he one on one? Is Hunter one on one with Nikki Muari? Let me take a shot there. So I see that being the hot answer, I guess, against the pressure is trying to. Trying to get explosives and chunks out of that. Maybe not just trying to take a completion with a little, like, slant or maybe something like a scream.
- [15:48]
James Palmer
Yeah, they've lived and died by the. By the way that they can get those explosives and Drake's connected on a bunch. Can they win on the outside, though, Mike, with those guys? They're not Pukinakua and Devonte Adams. I mean, it's, It's. It's a different, different group.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
Yeah, I mean, I don't think so. But then again, the, The Texans game happened. You know, they were able to get. They got one on Bullock, I think, and they got one on Sting. Yeah, and. And that was pretty much it. They tried. They tried Lattimore. Excuse me, Kamari Lassiter, quite a bit. And. And that didn't work. He's really. So that secondary reminds me of this secondary where, I mean, yeah, you can try it, but I've seen these guys have games with like eight PBUs as a unit, nine PBUs as a unit. I, Nikki Morris had two games this year with three PBUs. He just had one against the. He had one against the Texans on Monday Night Football. And then in the conference championship, he had three PBUs, one on Devonte Adams, one guard in Puka, one guard in Ronnie Rivers. So, I mean, can they win on the outside? In theory, but it's just. So it's been. It's been easier said than done, especially if you're not Stafford and Puka. That's the only team that's been willing to consistently been able to win on the outside. And I just think what other teams do, what the Patriots do against other teams, is probably just not that instructive. You know, I think the way that the Niners and the Panthers have looked in particular, like there's some games where Bryce and Teteroa McMillan look excellent. And then Teteroa had one catch for 5 yards on 4th and 18 when they played those guys. And the Niners put up all these points against the Bears and they scored against the Colts a bunch. And then they played two games in Seattle in three weeks and just couldn't score. Like, the Seahawks are just a different beast. And part of that is because your receivers are just in hell when you play these guys.
- [17:27]
James Palmer
Yeah. Okay, one more on the receivers, but let's go on the other side. I was talking to Steve Smith about this the other day and he was just like, do you know what it's like when you know you're going to get 10 targets? Like the way you go into a game when you know you're going to get 10 targets? There's just a different feel about how you carry yourself because you know you're going to get opportunities. That's the way Jax has lived this entire season. What has this week been like for him? Is he expecting. I would assume I'm going to get that. I'm going to get moved around where I'm going to spend. I mean, 80% of the time he spent on the outside. Do you think they're going to feel that out early and then adjust about how they use him in terms of different spots before he gets the football?
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Michael Shawn Dugar
And the plan is always to how can we get Jax the ball? You know, I had a conversation with Jake Bobo about that today, actually. I was like, yeah, man, crazy. You guys just basically got to maximize like one or two targets a game. And he was like, not. Yeah, we do, but it's, it's fine because Jax takes up so much air in the defense that when we get ops, it's, it's easy. It's. It's pitch and catch. I think the conference championship game was a, was a perfect example. You know that 51 yarder by Rasheed Shahid. The Rams had all this attention on Jax that left a guy who runs like a four two, one on one with Darius Williams. Well, no safety help over the top because of all the resources they allocated to Jackson. Well, then that's a bomb. Go look at Jake Bobo's touchdown, which is how me and him got talking about it. Well, yeah, they showed A too high look, but they blitzed Emmanuel Forbes and then double Jacks. Well, now you got Jake Bobo. One on one with Kobe Durant. Bang post corner. We're good. You know, touchdown. Jake only had three catches in the regular season before that game. Three. Right. And they drew up a touchdown play for him in the red zone in the conference championship. Right. So Jax is going to get his touch. He's going to get 10 targets, 11 targets, whatever it is, whatever they need to win. But I think the key is also that if you allocate too many resources to him, they're going to anticipate it and prepare for it. That touch, that touchdown by Jake, that was for Jake. He's the first read on the play in a red zone conference championship situation with Jackson, Smith and Jigba, the receiving king on the field. Their undrafted guy who's been a healthy scratch a few times. Number one read like, that's. That's this team. That's why they're so hard to stop. It's like you already can't stop Jax, but in the event you do, we got another play, a shot play lined up for someone else.
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James Palmer
I love that. And that's all the play design. And that leads me to this last question, which is, is it. What's the feel around the team? Because, you know, we all kind of, you know, it's understood that Clint Kubiak's going to the Raiders. There's reports out there that the team could be sold. Like, what is the vibe around this team as they're leading into Sunday? Because after Sunday, man, there could be some change. Definitely talked about.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
Yeah, it really depends on each guy. You know, I've checked in, you know, a lot of guys just excited for Sunday. Talked to a few guys today. They're just like, Mike, I'm tired of this stuff. Like, can we just play? It's a long way. It is.
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Chad Graff
It is.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
To talk every day for so long, you know, so that's one. And then some guys are just relishing the opportunity to kind of end certain parts of their career with a bang. Right. For instance, I've been talking to guys from the 2022 Seahawks draft class, very good class. They had Charles Cross, Abe Lucas, Kobe Bryant, Reek Woollen Boy Maffe, Ken Walker, Derrick Young, who recovered the punt in the NFC Championship game. All those guys, their contracts are expiring with the exception of Abe and Charles, and they got extensions. But this could be Ken's last game as a Seahawk. Could be Reek's last game. As a Seahawk, Kobe Bryant, Boyer, Dariek as well. And those guys, they're just taking in the moment together. They're brothers. They've been four years together in the league. They're all still here, same team, and this could be it for them. So they really just relish in this opportunity to go out with a bang together. You know, it's different situations like that. Guys whose contracts are up and then like the veterans, you never really know when you're in year 10, 11, 12 or whatever, like Leo and D. Law and Jaron Reed, all their vets, you know, they're just relishing the moment that they're finally here. They're finally at this point. And then you get someone like Jackson, Smith and Jigba who's like, man, I've been thinking about this since the day they drafted to me is playing in the Super Bowl. I just need Sunday to hurry up and get here, you know, And I think on offense, to your point about Clint, they all know the situation with Clint and they want Clint to go out with a bang. You know, they. They want to go out, drop 30, drop 40, which, you know, they've scored 30 or 40 in both playoff games thus far, so that's the expectation. They want to send Cloud out with a bang. There's a lot of guys on offense are sick that Clint going. They're like, damn, man. You know, he is so good. He's such an integral part of why we're here. That's why he's up for assistant coach of the year at the NFL honors later tonight. They're sad that he's leaving. They're happy for him that he gets the opportunity and they want to send him out, you know, on a high note.
- [22:01]
James Palmer
Okay. With that said, Mike and I know they want to do that. Your prediction before we go is what?
- [22:07]
Michael Shawn Dugar
Wow, that reminds me. I didn't turn in my staff prediction yet. I need to do that, but I'll give it to Scoop City first.
- [22:13]
James Palmer
Yeah, okay. Okay.
- [22:13]
Michael Shawn Dugar
Yeah.
- [22:14]
James Palmer
Yeah. Well, I'm going to make sure it matches now. I'm going to see if you, you.
- [22:16]
Michael Shawn Dugar
Know, now I'm beholden to the same thing. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's good. Okay, So I think the over unders were like 45 or something like that. I will go 23, 17. Seahawks. I think the Seahawks are going to win. I think it'll be pretty hard for the Patriots to move the ball, but they're. They're going to get some explosives. Their team's too good. They're too well coached. That's probably the other thing I should have mentioned about how guys are feeling. They have a lot of respect for what they see on tape from the Patriots, just in terms of like, discipline, just guys playing on the same accord, playing for each other. I was talking to offensive guys today. They were just like, that team is good. They, they mix up their looks, like we have to be on it with our, our run keys and our fronts. Like, they present one thing and then it's another. Very similar to how the Seahawks defense is actually, but they're prepared for it, you know, so guys have a lot of respect for the guys on the other side of the ball. There hasn't been a lot of what we saw from like the rams or the 49ers where they're kind of taunting the Seahawks. The Seahawks don't operate that way. Their whole thing has been about if we do what we're supposed to do, we'll win these games. You know, I've talked to a lot of guys this week who are like, yeah, I've reminded some of them and they've reminded me. They lost three games this year by nine points total. That's it. A four point loss, a three point loss and a two point loss. So the confidence they have going into this game is earned confidence. It's kind of been the best way I can describe it. They feel like they're going to win. They feel like they're going to handle business. But it's not because they don't respect the Patriots or because they're cocky. It's just like we have shown through 19 games or whatever. If we just do us, it is very hard to beat us. And that's kind of the mindset. So that's why I believe 2317 Seahawks become super bowl champions.
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James Palmer
Okay? I love it. And then you'll get all those quotes after the game where they, they like to, this group likes to, you know, hey, we got a lot of respect.
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Michael Shawn Dugar
Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's going to be great. It's going to be great. I'm hoping, actually I'm gonna say I'm gonna share this nugget with you guys and see if we'll all be paying attention to it. After I was talking to Derrick Young, who, like I said, recovered that month point in the conference championship game, and he was saying that all their special team stuff this year, all the big players we've seen are not happenstance. They're all part of a Scheme that play, for instance, they saw on tape that Xavier Smith, the returner, peaks at the Gunners more often than other return guys. He said the average is like one or two times. Xavier does it like three or four. So they knew if they put hang time on the ball, eventually he'd lose it. Right. So I was. I was asking. I was asking Dorik. I was like, which unit do you. It's like, are you expecting something like that to happen in this game? Not maybe a pump muff, but like, he was like, yeah, we're gonna have a big play on special teams. He wouldn't tell me what unit, but he's gonna be one of the guys I try to find if they win this game and they have a big special teams moment. Because I just love those little details like that. And that's. And that's also why I don't feel like the coaching inexperience is like, gonna hamstring the Seahawks. Like, when you. When you're in that type of detail down to the. How many times the freaking returner punts peaks at the Gunners. You know, on average, you know, that's. That's championship level stuff. And that's why I think the Seahawks are going to win. So I'm going to try to find Dorit. Remind me to find Dorik in that locker room.
- [25:13]
James Palmer
We'll be clipping this off, man. We'll be clipping this off. If that has. If that happens. And it's like, Mike called it, man. He called it awesome. Appreciate it. Get back to work because that's all you've been doing, but hopefully you're enjoying the week, truly. And thanks for. Thanks for stopping by as always, man. Appreciate it.
- [25:29]
Michael Shawn Dugar
I always appreciate you having me.
- [25:30]
James Palmer
To Chipotle, I go Chipotle, you go. And we go on in Scoop city to Chad Graf in the next block. What does he think about the Patriots chances? We'll do that next with Chad.
- [25:41]
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- [26:48]
Can I make my site firmer?
- [26:50]
Chad Graff
Can we sleep cooler?
- [26:51]
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- [27:17]
James Palmer
All right, our Thursday road trip here on Scoop City. The final game. The final two teams were going inside their facilities, but they're not at their facilities. They're in San Francisco, Santa Clara, anywhere in Northern California. This one's spread out. Chad Graf joins us. Chad, let's start with the man in terms of Drake May, who is a finalist for the mvp. But when you look at the way that this postseason has gone below a 60% completion percentage in each one of these playoff games now, I looked it up. Two other guys have done that, Brady and Flacco. They both won the super bowl the year that they did it, which is kind of interesting. But what has been the biggest difference outside of weather? I know that played a factor in two of the games to where you've seen this different Drake May against these top defenses in the postseason compared to the Drake May we saw during the regular season, what are these defenses doing? What is really the crux of this to where he can get back possibly to the way that we know he can play.
- [28:14]
Chad Graff
So it's two things. And this is a little bit difficult because this is admittedly a small sample size. It's not just three games. It's that six of the 12 quarters were played in kind of blizzardy conditions. So yes, that is a caveat that I will throw on all of this. But the two areas that have been kind of an area of concern and have changed from the regular season are one, the pressure. He is getting way more pressure than he did in the regular season. The offensive line is not holding up quite in the same way. And perhaps some of that you could say, yeah, they played Khalil Mack and then Danielle Hunter and Will Anderson and then they went up against that great Broncos defense. Like, of course they were going to get more pressure. They're not playing against the schedule that they had all regular season, so it is a little bit of that. But it's also that he has not been as good against pressure as he was in the regular season. So that's a pretty damning double edged sword of they're getting more pressure allowed and he hasn't been as good against pressure. Fumbles have been an issue. Ball security has been an issue. Those were not issues in the regular season. And if those issues persist in the super bowl, then the Patriots won't win.
- [29:14]
James Palmer
Yeah, it's been just fascinating when I'm looking at the splits. And again, I'm glad you brought it up. I tried to like avoid it, but your truth, the weather. I was at one of those games. You were at both of those games. It did play a factor in the way offensive football was played. But 54 points throughout the postseason is, is. Is not what you want to have coming in to the Super Bowl. How else do you see them finding points? There will not be a factor, most likely in this, but how do you see them finding points? Because this defense is just as good, if not better than the ones that you mentioned.
- [29:46]
Chad Graff
Well, and that's where this gets so interesting because one, the Seahawks are so good at stopping the run. Like they just have. They put four big dudes up front and then they say, yeah, like we're going to throw an extra DB on the field to take away your pass because our dudes up front are better than yours. They're bigger, they're tougher, they're stronger. And that has worked so well for them. And I just don't think that the Patriots run game is good enough to look at what the Seahawks do and be like, oh, we are, we are good here. Ramandre Stevenson has been very good in the playoffs. I think that they'll continue to lean on him. But I don't think their path to success is on the ground where this interesting matchup comes into play even more. And I think this is the matchup that probably dictates how the game goes is the Seahawks are so good at limiting explosive plays. They play in that two deep safety shell. They try to keep everything in front of them. But, you know, if you want to get a 7 yard gain on us, fine. We'll live. We're not letting you beat us deep. What have the Patriots been so good at? Explosive passes, number one in the NFL and explosive passing Rate. Drake May's deep ball is the reason that he's an MVP finalist. K Shawn Booty has come into his own as a great wide receiver and so the Patriots have to be able to hit on those explosive plays. They don't need a ton but if they get four of them say in the super bowl, then I'll like their chances to win.
- [30:59]
James Palmer
Yeah, let's stay there. I want to get to the run game in a minute. When I, when I look at what's happened to the Seahawks defense when they have had issues, you know it's times where the Rams were able to to force them out of that two high shell and they went to kind of a one safety look and then what do you have? You have Devonte Adams, you have Puka Nakua. You can win on the outside. If there was any sort of weakness. I don't want to say there's very many, if any to this Seattle defense is maybe the corners on the outside. Can the, can the Patriots win one on one with say Mac Hollins or Booty or Pop Dub? Because you know that the Diggs is going to be in the slot more than more often than not. So on the outside do those guys have the ab to win one on one chat?
- [31:42]
Chad Graff
I don't know. That's where to me like the Patriots and Rams, despite both having awesome quarterbacks who are 12 as in terms of best quarterbacks in the NFL this season, they're built so different in like every other phase. Although you look at the secondary on the defenses, those are totally different. Like they're just built different. And so I don't think that the Patriots can look at what the Rams did when they had all sorts of success moving the ball and scoring points and say oh voila, we figured it out. We have the path to success now. The Patriots just aren't built that way. So they are going to have to win outside the numbers a little bit. With K Sean Booty and those deep downfield passes, you can shut your eyes and picture all of the Drake May deep passes that he's hit this season because there have been so many of them. But I just don't think that Rams game plan is the same game plan that the Patriots can use if they want to win this game.
- [32:30]
James Palmer
Yeah, I agree with you. It's just the Rams are built that way to where if we can run the football and get you out of it, we know we're more talented on the outside, we know we can. That's now to our advantage with our quarterback and our still guys on the outside. So I'm just fascinated to see what Josh McDaniel's approach would be. Getting them into that type of look and getting them out of that too high shell that you've mentioned. And they've been able to sit in that big nickel that so many other teams have emulated. And they probably do it better than anybody. Right, Chad, Is that they can stop the run in that. You mentioned the explosive plays. It's kind of like the run game has been the same way. Like they haven't run the ball well, but. But they do get explosive runs out of their run game. Do you think that. That Stevenson and I don't know how much we'll see Travion Henderson, there's almost an incentive that you have to try to get them to get 3, 4 yards as a chunk to try to force them to play a little bit differently. Is that almost just a. Just a must have in the way that they operate offensively?
- [33:28]
Chad Graff
I think so, probably. But it also sets up a fascinating decision that Josh McDaniels is going to have to make. And I don't know which way he should go. I don't know which way he's leaning.
- [33:37]
James Palmer
But.
- [33:37]
Chad Graff
But in the playoffs they have ridden Ramon Dre Stevenson. They have felt like, okay, when we've got four yards blocked up, he's going to get us four and a half. Is it going to be something sexy? No, but he's going to get us what is there. Plus he is going to be good in pass protection. They have not trusted Trayvon Henderson in those situations. They felt like, oh, we've got four blocked up. Ah, he got us one. Oh, we got four blocked up. He got us one. But the plus side to Trayvon Henderson is, hey, we got one yard blocked up. Whoa, he just went for 50. Did you see that? So that is kind of the give and take with Travion Henderson. And I think some of it will just go on how the game is going. If this is like a defensive slug fest, I think maybe you try Travion Henderson a little bit more, saying, hey, the running game's not really there with Ramandre either. Let's just try a couple of these knowing that, yeah, most of them are probably not going to be super successful. But when he does bounce it, that's when the explosive plays start to come. So I just think that that whether it's the run game or the passing game, whoever gets more explosives in this one because both teams are good. Like if you flip to Seattle's offense. They're good at generating explosives too. Patriots Stevens good at limiting explosives. I think this game comes down to the explosive plays.
- [34:47]
James Palmer
Yeah, they always say a handful of plays can win a game. And the other part is that makes it so difficult is this Seattle defense just tackles so well and they tackle so well in space. So oftentimes you're banking on a missed tackle or a missed assignment to get some these explosive plays to hit. Sticking with the backs real quick before we flip it to the other side, do you think with what you're saying with Treveon Henderson, with Ramondre Stevenson, that's, you know, getting them in the progression early, maybe have them taking advantage of finding some space in terms of the passing game in the shorter passing game and then can you have yards after the catch? I think that's something that you have to rely on against Seattle as well. I'm kind of interested to see what your take is there because. Because there is this aspect that the underneath stuff. Seattle has given up a lot of catches to running backs. The caveat is essentially that they're usually winning most of these games and they're allowing stuff to just stay in front of them. Is there an aspect of maybe using both of these backs to their advantage and hoping that you can get some yards after the catch as well with both of your running backs?
- [35:46]
Chad Graff
And I think part of it comes down to the screen game. Like Josh McDaniels has drawn up some very impressive screens and they've executed them well over the years. Like you think back even to that Falcons super bowl, it felt like every other play was a James White screen and off he was going. And so they have hip plays in that department before. And so that's certainly an area that you look at. But then I also wonder, in spite of Seattle being very good on play action, the Patriots have also been very good as a play action team. And so I love this matchup so much because it is so much strength on strength and who is just better at what they do or. Or if you are, the Patriots, like, and this is what Bill Belichick used to do. It wasn't just, hey, I don't care if they know what we're good at, we can switch it, we can do other things. And I'm curious to see if like this Mike Rabel team comes into the super bowl saying, this is what got us here, we're sticking with it, or if they kind of flip and say, ah, Seattle's pretty good at it too, maybe we shouldn't do That. I think that's a big question going into the game.
- [36:42]
James Palmer
That's the hard part, right? Like, this is their strength. But guess what? It's our strength. And we're in the Super Bowl. Like, we can run the play action game and put that. Maybe we can find a wrinkle or two off of it as well. I think, I think that's a really, really good point. To the other side. You've seen the way that we, you and I have talked about this. The way that New England has kind of ratcheted up, for lack of a better term. Their, their, their blitz rate, it's almost double of what it was during the regular season. You've seen Sam Darnold. It's funny. It's like his yards per attempt when blitzed are almost identical to his yards per attempt. So it doesn't really seem to matter. He's going to take the shot now. He's going to throw touchdowns, he's going to throw picks. Do you think they keep this same high percentage blitz rate up like they have in the postseason? Or is it like, we've done this throughout the postseason? This is a, this is a New England Patriots thing. We're going to flip it on its head when the super bowl rolls around.
- [37:33]
Chad Graff
I was trying to get an answer for you. I was hanging out with Zach Core the other day. Nobody's around. He's hiding in the corner. Yeah. I was thinking, hey, James is going to ask this on Thursday. We got to be prepared. And so like, come on, shoot me straight, Zach. What are we doing? Is this like, Is this you? Are you doing this because you're healthy now and you like the plan and now you can be a blitz team? Or was that just like, hey, we don't think C.J. stroud is going to beat us with the blitz. We don't think the Chargers offensive line is going to stop the blitz. Let's get after it. He insists that it's game plan specific. I'm a little bit skeptical, though. I think that they might just stick with it. And I went looking for the numbers. I was blown away by that, too. With Sam Darnold. Sam Darnold, in terms of yards per attempt, number two in the league when not blitzed. Flip it over to the blitz side. Number two in the league when blitz. So it's like, damned if you do, damned if you don't. The way that he has played this season.
- [38:22]
James Palmer
Yeah, it's wild. I have it in front of me. Also A League high seven interceptions when he's blitzed in 20, 25, the only QB with more than five. I believe he also has six touchdowns that he's thrown against the blitz. So like it's, it's just kind of the way he's gonna, he's gonna play it. And it's been very, very, very interesting. Robert Splain, like in the middle of this defense that's there's not a whole lot of health concerns. What's the latest on, on, on, on the guy that's kind of in the middle there.
- [38:48]
Chad Graff
So he's got an ankle injury kept him out of practice on Wednesday. Now you've only got two practices left before the Super Bowl. And so I asked him today, he said, on Wednesday, yeah, I'm 100% sure I'm going to play. They didn't practice. That kind of ramps up the concern a little bit. Asked him again today, yeah, yeah, I'm going to play in the Super Bowl. I'm going to play in the Super Bowl. And I said, okay, well, well, you know, don't you think, are you going to need to test it out a little bit? Is there, you know, do you need a certain amount of snaps and practices to be able to trust it in the Super Bowl? And he said, yeah, I do think I will need a certain amount of snaps, a certain amount of reps. I'm going to need to trust it. But he was confident that he'll get there. I think it's easy to say that when the super bowl is coming up, but it's one thing to say I'm going to trust it and another for any of these athletes who have gone through a bunch of injuries like he has to then, you know, be in the third quarter, gas tired and totally trust that your ankle is going to hold up. I think that's something worth watching in terms of how much he actually plays in the game.
- [39:44]
James Palmer
He has a green dot.
- [39:46]
Chad Graff
Yes, he does.
- [39:47]
James Palmer
Right. So that's why I bring that up because I just feel like one of the, one of the things that I think Mike Vrabel and his coaching staff have done so brilliantly is that they're never out of position. They play very sound as a defense together. They always find ways to make sure that they take advantage of other teams team's mistakes and don't let really themselves make many of them. In that case, when you have the guy who is that guy, he might not be the most talented. And you know this through the course of defenses over the course of the years, it's oftentimes not the most talented player on your team, but it might is just vital to the where everybody is at. Do you think if he's limited in playing, in a sense, some of what I mentioned, which is what makes New England so good, could take a hit in the Super Bowl a little bit.
- [40:28]
Chad Graff
Totally. And they're not a team that can just roll out tons and tons of depth on you. And even thinking back to, you know, previous Super Bowls, you don't know who are going to be the stars. Like Milton Williams kind of had a breakout. Josh Sweat had a breakout. That Eagles defensive line that was so good, those were good players, but those were not the guys that you thought like, oh, these guys might be getting Super Bowl MVP votes as Sweat did. And so, yeah, you know, I think it just reflects that this is a long game when you, when you get give coaches and coordinators who are this good, two full weeks to prepare with a massive sample size of. Here's exactly what they've done this season. We know every single situation. We've had so much time to look at it. Like you're just asking for scenarios where you're going to get unlikely guys stepping up and making big plays. And so I'm curious to see how that impacts the linebackers. Jack Gibbons has been solid for them. Christian Ellis has been solid for them as Robert Spain has dealt with these injuries. But they gave Robert spilling the money in free agency because he's the guy who can run in and stop the run. He's not unbelievable believable against the pass. He just tends to be in the right place at the right time. But he is a big part of their run defense and that would be a big loss without him.
- [41:33]
James Palmer
Okay.
- [41:34]
Jerry Brewer
All right.
- [41:34]
James Palmer
Well, you mentioned very quietly, very quickly in the middle there. Some guys always step up in the Super Bowl. Give me an X factor, somebody that we're not talking about that may play a major role in what things and how things transpire on Sunday. And give me your super bowl prediction.
- [41:50]
Chad Graff
All right, I'll give you two. On the offensive side of the ball, Austin Hooper's their number two tight end. The Seahawks have struggled against tight ends. Now, there could be a lot of reasons for that. Maybe it's because they play the Rams and the Rams have so many tight ends that half their roster is tight ends.
- [42:04]
James Palmer
Three or whatever the reason.
- [42:05]
Chad Graff
Yeah, they give up yards against tight ends. Austin Hooper has been like a sneaky red zone target for them. He's somebody that they look to. Is he the best run blocker in the world? No. But like the Guy can get open and still make plays. So I'm a little bit curious to see if he doesn't score at some point. If they looked him like, it would not surprise me if the Patriots go with these big formations, six offensive line, two tight ends, whatever. And that could get Austin Hooper more playing time. And then on the other side of the ball, Milton Williams is deservedly getting tons of credit. This Patriots defensive line that has ratcheted up the blitz rate that is getting pressure in the playoffs like they didn't in the regular season is getting tons of credit. But Marcus Jones has been kind of a difference maker for them. He has been blitzing off of from that nickel spot he plays in the, in the slot for them at cornerback. He's been blitzing a ton for them because he's got like this quick burst that Vrabel and Zach Kor, like how quickly he can get off the line. He's up there pretending to jam and then he's gone. So watch for Marcus Jones both as a blitzer, potentially trying to get a strip sack or some sort of big play there. But also this is a league where, you know, your SWAT corner is becoming one of your most important players. We've certainly seen that with the Seahawks. We've seen that with a lot of teams. Marcus Jones has been very good for the pace. Patriots also returns puns. I'm curious to see what he does cause I think he'll have a big role now. As for a prediction, I've been all over the map. I've gone back and forth a few times. At the start of this I thought Seahawks for sure. Then I flipped. The Patriots having been here at the super bowl, obviously this comes up in every conversation that you have with people. Everybody likes the Seahawks and maybe this is stupid analysis that's almost made me kind of rethink again. Like boys, everybody gonna be right up this. And so the more I thought about the quarterback situation where I think the Patriots have an advantage, the more I've thought about the head coaching situation where I think the Patriots have an advantage. While I like Quint Kubiak a ton, I think that there's an experience differential with Josh McDaniels going for his seventh Super bowl at offensive coordinator. And so I am taking the Patriots in a very tight game. But I love the experience. I love what Frable's got going on. I think The Patriots win. Win 24, 21.
- [44:18]
James Palmer
Hey, listen, it's. It's not a terrible thought by any stretch because of what you mentioned in terms of the extract because I kept picturing Marcus Jones. Kind of like you come off the corner blitz, tips a pass, it's intercepted, and you go halfway down the field, short field, touchdown. Boop. Like, you know, those things are just game changing type of plays that happen. And by the way, he's a very, you're right, very underrated corner. And Hooper's a good pick on the other side too. But just because of the pressure that we know Seattle can bring without bringing extra guys. Where can you go with the ball quickly if you're under pressure? And that might be one of those spots that, that, that Drake ends up finding. Okay, I'm going to need you to text me the rest of your predictions so I can see all of them and then I'm very excited to see which one you go with. Post game to go see. Guys, I'm Chad and I'm always right.
- [45:05]
Chad Graff
I told you. Why didn't you guys just listen? I told you guys what was going to happen.
- [45:08]
James Palmer
I told you guys. I was right. Oh, my God, dude, you're crushing it this week. Continue to do it. Enjoy the game. It's been an awesome season having you on, and no matter what, we'll have you on after the game. How about that? We'll make you work even, even further.
- [45:20]
Chad Graff
It feels like a Thursday routine at this point. So great seeing you and thanks for having me.
- [45:24]
James Palmer
You said it, not me. Okay. All right. Super bowl in the books. Well, not on the field. But in terms of our discussions about it now, we're going to move forward. Coming up next on Scoop City, Jerry Brewer and I are going to talk about the 10 head coach openings that were in the NFL this year and not a single one of them was filled. A black head coach. What does that mean for the NFL? We'll break it down next on Scoop City.
- [45:49]
Michael Shawn Dugar
Hey, Sal.
- [45:50]
Chad Graff
Hank. What's going on? We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Havana and it was so easy.
- [45:56]
Michael Shawn Dugar
Too easy. Think something's up?
- [45:58]
Chad Graff
You tell me.
- [45:59]
James Palmer
They got thousands of options, found a.
- [46:02]
Chad Graff
Great car at a great price, and it got delivered the next day. It sounds like carbon.
- [46:07]
Michael Shawn Dugar
Carvana just makes it easy to buy your car, Hank.
- [46:10]
Chad Graff
Yeah, you're right.
- [46:11]
Jerry Brewer
Case closed.
- [46:13]
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- [46:43]
James Palmer
Cost is doing nothing. Sticking with the manual processes, reacting to emergencies. These are really missed opportunities.
- [46:50]
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- [47:01]
James Palmer
All right. Welcome back to Scoop City. James Palmer with you. Very special guest here from the Athletic, Jerry Brewer joins me who has come out with a ton of stuff lately. Please just go to the Athletic. Read every, just search author search Jerry Brewing and start, start, just start reading and you'll, you'll just become informed. Jerry, appreciate you you taking the time and stopping by.
- [47:19]
Jerry Brewer
Oh, no problem. Thanks for having me.
- [47:21]
James Palmer
No, yeah, I'm stoked. The main thing we're going to focus on here is obviously we covered the NFL. NFL at Scoop City. The NFL hired zero black head coaches. That should, that tells you everything. That's essentially the article that you came out with this week. And in that piece, over the last two cycles, only 1 out of 17 hires were black head coaches and obviously 0 for 10 this year. Your initial thought when I would just say we're expected to have Clint Kubiak be hired for the Raiders and that kind of seals the deal. So your first thought was what?
- [47:54]
Jerry Brewer
Sobering. It wasn't necessarily unexpected, but it's really sobering when you're able to put it in a stat like that. And we're going backwards. And it would be one thing if the NFL told you in its own way that like, this wasn't something that they valued diversity, but they've explicitly said that they want to do better, better. And they're, whether it's the Rooney rule or any other things baked into their structure, that there are things that they have done to influence diverse hiring and they're not doing it. And like, you know, know, for every promising year when it comes to that, you have like just this ebb of three or four years and all of a sudden, like it takes a tremendous amount of progress just to get back to where you were. And my thing, James, is let's, let's take the racial component out of it for a second.
- [49:09]
James Palmer
Okay?
- [49:11]
Jerry Brewer
The NFL owners are really bad at hiring, period. And you would think if you were so bad at this that you would be open to new people, new perspective, new ideas, new ways of doing things, yet they just continue to do the same thing over and over again. And every three or four years, if not sooner, they're hiring somebody new. It frustrates the fan base incredibly. It leaves your franchise without any stability. But then just Think about their pockets and maybe it's a, it's like just a little small drop in an ocean if you're paying a quarterback 55, $60 million a year. But I look at it and I think of a guy, for instance, the Texans hired David Culley two years back, fired David Culley waited his entire life for an opportunity, gets an opportunity and he's one and done, and probably rightfully so. It's not like he did an extraordinary job there and they were just mired in this rebuilding. But he's one and done. He got paid $16 million for that, for one year of service. And so you paid him $12 million just to go away, you know, in the last three years of that deal. And you keep doing it again and again and again. Like how financially stupid is that? And maybe that doesn't affect your team in a salary cap situation, but it could affect your training staff and like not properly resourcing your team so it's can stay healthy or a number of other things that go with like just this incredible operation of, you know, operating and working and owning a pro football team.
- [51:07]
James Palmer
Yeah, you mentioned Houston. I thought you were going to go straight to Mark Davis. That's where I thought you were going. Paying like seven different staffs right now. But you're right, that David Kelly situation, I remember it. I remember being on NFL Network with my buddies Jim Trotter and Steve Weish and how having this in depth David Culley discussion about what went on in Houston and how we were looking at ownership in the hiring process and how oftentimes we should be looking at how candidates should be almost flipping the table and being interviewed, I mean interviewing the ownership and what you are looking for. Because I think what people don't understand, Jerry, and I know you know this is, this is oftentimes not this billionaire's main source of revenue. They have businesses to run elsewhere and they're oftentimes not in the building and they're getting a lot of their information from frankly other individuals that are trying to A keep their job, B, put a particular message out there that makes them look in a certain manner to ownership to where oftentimes the head coach is the one that gets circulated through over and over again. So with that said, and I love the point that you brought up about the hiring process of it, it seems like as a league there is a distinction, distinct culture right now and you have to do it this way. And anytime anybody breaks that type of mold, it's really looked at side eyed from those around the league. You look at what happened to Akwesi do Fumensa where he takes paternity leave and the league goes insane over this situation. You look at the Browns hiring situation and I don't know if Todd Monkin is going to be successful or not. But they went a different approach in how they went about the hiring in terms of the questionnaires and the different aspects they looked into. And everybody thinks it's nonsense. Do you think we're stuck in kind of this repetitive aspect of how they look about the hiring process?
- [52:53]
Jerry Brewer
Oh, yeah, I definitely think we are stuck in that repetitive aspect. The league in general is just not open to innovation. And the funny thing about it is, James, that on Sundays, like the most innovative franchises and teams are the ones that's kicking everyone's butt. And there is this, it seemed like this social pressure to do everything the way that it's always been done. And that's incredibly limiting for every franchise. Like every franchise needs to understand what it is and how it's gonna function. You know, if I were like a consultant, I would be like, the first thing you gu guys need to do is create a manifesto and I don't want it to be like 90 pages. I want it to be like five pages.
- [53:44]
James Palmer
Yeah.
- [53:45]
Jerry Brewer
You got to know exactly who you are and what you're looking for and then be honest with people about it.
- [53:53]
James Palmer
Right.
- [53:54]
Jerry Brewer
I remember having a conversation once with Tony Dungey about this and he's like, you know what the Pittsburgh Steelers are, right? Like they are organization that's going to stick through thick and thin. They want a team that's like tough. Like the city is like really blue collar. They've had. This is just their fourth coach since 1969. Like the previous three all won Super Bowls. And they wanted a younger guy, more defensive minded CEO instincts who can command the entire team.
- [54:30]
Michael Shawn Dugar
Team.
- [54:30]
Jerry Brewer
And they did a great job with Chuck Noll to Bill Cower to Mike Tomlin. And on one hand, like, they are sticking to like their Pittsburgh roots. They hired a Pittsburgh guy in Mike McCarthy, but Mike McCarthy is not going to bring any new ideas to the table. And Mike McCarthy is an offensive mind and they had always gone defense and so it'll be really interesting to see. And Mike McCarthy doesn't seem like someone who's going to be around for a decade in coaching. So it'll be really interesting to see like how they go. But even if they made a mistake, like there's. They understand who they are as an organization. The Ravens understand who they are as an organization that the Rams haven't had to make a coaching change since hiring McVeigh. But as they've kind of recasted what was one of the worst franchises in the league, they've got an identity, and the Patriots very clearly have that, and the Seahawks have that and a few others. But when you add them all up, it's like maybe a third of the league really knows what it's looking for. And then when you tell them, hey, there might be stuff that you're looking past that you ought to pay attention to, they throw a fit about it and act like you're, like, telling them how to do the job. And it's like, well, I'm not, but I kind of think I could make some better hires, like, without knowing all the stuff that, you know.
- [56:03]
James Palmer
No, I, I, I completely get it. I love that you brought up the Sean McVeigh aspect of it, because this is a copycat league where everybody has been searching for the next Sean McVeigh, who's the next, early in his 30s, unbelievable offensive mind that is going to revolutionize what we do. Everything I said there is directly tied to Sean McVay. He is not something that comes around very often. So you're searching for something that is really not a norm in the league. But we're such a copycat league that when you brought up the Steelers, I was immediately going, well, the Steelers and the Bills and the Ravens. You can't tell me that it doesn't seem like three AFC teams are tied to parting ways with longtime head coaches in the year that Patrick Mahomes is not in the postseason. It's almost like, well, I saw them do this. Maybe Terry Bula goes, I have to do this. The Ravens did it. Is this the time to pivot? It seems like there's so much copycat process within the NFL. And then you mentioned the Seahawks, where they, I think, made a brilliant hire in Mike McDonald, when they said, well, why don't we get the guy that stops Kyle Shanahan or stops Shawn McVeigh as opposed to trying to find the next Sean McVeigh or the next Kyle Shanahan. Do you think there's too much much of just owners? I don't want to say it's lazy, Jerry, but it's essentially what did everybody else do? We should probably do that as well.
- [57:20]
Jerry Brewer
I think in some of their business practices, they do exhibit great vision. And so I think they're, they're trying to always find, like, what is the cutting edge, what's the new Thing, you know, like, every business is obsessed with, like, trying to figure out and maximize AI right now.
- [57:37]
Michael Shawn Dugar
Right.
- [57:38]
Jerry Brewer
Like, and if you look at coaches in that way, like, there was a moment when, like, Sean McVay was the AI for them where, like, you know, everyone. And now, like, it seems like a quarter of the league is. Is from that McVeigh or Shanahan tree. You know, if you combine their tree. And then now what's going to happen? Well, all of a sudden, like, two really good defensive coaches are in the super bowl, one of them and Mike McDonald, you could consider him the defensive Sean McVeigh.
- [58:10]
James Palmer
I think so.
- [58:10]
Jerry Brewer
So what happens, Jesse? Mentors getting a job. And I think that six out of the 10 head coaches hired have defensive backgrounds. And people are kind of like, well, this is the way that it needs to go. And that's just like a very fossil way of looking at things, right? Yeah, totally. What I want more like, why Mike McDonald is succeeding before we even get into, like, how good he of a defensive mind he is. The reason that he is succeeding is because he has figured out how to command a locker room of 53 people. He has figured out how to lead the entire team, how to coach his coaches and really articulate what he wants and what he values. And then you add on top of the fact that, like, this guy is just understands defense at the next level right now and can call the dag on plays as well, and he's a great defensive play caller, then it all comes together and you've got a superstar coach, but if you just go and say, this is what I want, you're going to wind up with the next Brandon Staley, perhaps.
- [59:20]
James Palmer
Right?
- [59:20]
Jerry Brewer
Like, you know, if that's all you're looking for and, you know, but then you think about things like, like, Tomlin and John Harbaugh were two of the best hires of the last 25 years. And let's look at. I mean, Tomlin wasn't a defensive coordinator for very long, like, one year. And John Harbaugh at the NFL level had mostly a special teams coordinator background, but he had just this great understanding of, like, how it all needs to fit together. And, like, that's a coach. And you can find, like, specialists to coordinate the other areas. The hard part is finding someone who understands how it all fits together and can get those guys on Sunday to play like their hair is on fire.
- [60:18]
James Palmer
Yeah, that's exactly right. But what is the league always constantly fearful of, Jerry? If you get that defensive coach, that special team, you're going to Lose the play caller that works with your quarterback because if you have success than they're going elsewhere because of the way this thing is built into this, you know, essentially hamster wheel and where we're at. Another part of breaking down your article, which again, everybody go to the athletic and read this. It's outstanding. I immediately thought of what happened this year and that the league essentially ended the accelerator program and that that's no longer present right now. Now some people say it's on hiatus. We'll call it what it is. They've ended the program. Program which allows, you know, essentially this networking and professional interaction with a lot of different minority coaches. I know it's not directly tied to what's going on this year, being 0 for 10 with black head coaches, but I feel like it's a really bad look for the league in the year in which you ended this program that you end up not hiring a single African American head coach.
- [61:21]
Jerry Brewer
Yeah, for sure. And you know, it's against the backdrop of a nation that is. Has a presidential administration that's attacking DEI initiatives. And so I think that there isn't like a societal pressure to go to the max on that. But I also think from the NFL standpoint, which still has, and I believe at the league level, right, and mind you, this is a league of, of 32 different corporations that have to function as one. But at the league office level, I. Maybe I'm being naive, but I still have a fair amount of trust that like, this is something that they, that they value. You know, Question.
- [62:00]
James Palmer
I don't think they wanted this result. I don't think they wanted this result.
- [62:04]
Jerry Brewer
You can question their mode, but like, they've done a lot of work in trying to like, create a system in which more diverse candidates can be put forward forward. But my great fear now is that, all right, so we're seeing the results on the top level. The question they would always say, well, look at what we're doing underneath. Well, now like, look at what you're doing underneath. What you're doing underneath is kind of dismantling some of the things that you were hoping was going to create like this robust pipeline. And so I, I start to worry that, that the, the next, the next generation of minority coaches are going to be blocked similarly to what it was like for some of these guys who were coming up like in the 90s and in the early 2000s. And like, that kind of aggression.
- [63:01]
James Palmer
Could.
- [63:02]
Jerry Brewer
Could lead to some like, really, really, really distressing, depressing hiring cycles.
- [63:12]
James Palmer
Yeah, that's a Great point. That's, that's a great point. Before we go, I did want to ask you this because in your article you did have this, this number blew my mind that from 2020 to 2022 you put in there's 22 head coaching hires. Four of the men from 2020 to 2022 still remain employed at their current job. As in this, as a totality, are there 32 people on the planet that are good at this? There may not be. You know, I was thinking about it.
- [63:43]
Jerry Brewer
Like that, you know, so like that might be the pushback from owners. Like maybe they're just aren't that, you know, maybe it's like quarterbacks.
- [63:51]
James Palmer
Yeah.
- [63:52]
Jerry Brewer
There might just not be, you know, enough elite level. But my thing is like what do we do with quarterbacks in the NFL? Like we search under every rock and we try every little thing to try to find a friend franchise quarterback. Are they doing that at the with head coaches? No, definitely not. You're hiring the same guy over and over again and hoping that he's going to be the one. And anytime anybody does something of any significance, you want to find some facsimile of that guy. That's just not going to work. It's, it's not going to work for the Cleveland Browns. You know, it might work for some of like the more glamorous franchises in the NFL to just play, follow the leader and put their resources behind it, but it ain't gonna work for the Cleveland Browns. It ain't gonna work for the Arizona Cardinals. Like you need to do some real introspection and you need to be open to some new ideas.
- [64:55]
James Palmer
That's a great point. And you know what, when you were bringing up the similarities between are there 32 good quarterbacks? Because that's kind of where I came up with the question if you're first round pick and it's a quarterback though, how many opportunities you're going to get? You're going to get multiple, multiple bites of the apple. The same thing as we're seeing with some of these head coaches getting, if you had success maybe once more, they'll get multiple cracks at it. And other guys, obviously, I think when you oftentimes think outside the box or go with a quarterback similar vein that's not picked up in first round spot, you usually get kind of one crack at it. That's why I don't like, and just this is my personal opinion here and I just have to say it to you. I don't like when like Rex Ryan is on ESPN destroying Mike McDaniel and calling him names because he does things differently and looks differently and comes from a different spot in terms of a head coach. And he's called Mick Genius over and over again. When the Dolphins did try something that was a little bit different in terms of the way Mike approached the head coaching role. So I just thought it was just kind of interesting the way that that continues to happen the same year and year when they want you almost to stay in the mold. How do we break the mold? So I think that's the part that I just think is very, very interesting. By the way, everybody, what Jer wrote, by the way, what sports will reveal about America in 2026. I read that this morning. Jerry was outstanding. So thank you so much for taking the time and chatting with us. Please come back. How about that?
- [66:14]
Jerry Brewer
I'll just say I really enjoyed the conversation.
- [66:17]
James Palmer
Thank you, Jerry. Appreciate it. Outstanding, outstanding conversation right there, actually, with all three of these men. And Michael, Shawn Dugar, Chad Graff, Jerry Brewer, thank you all for joining me here on Scoop City. This was our final show without a Super bowl champion in Super Bowl 60. We'll be back with you on Monday, telling you everything you need to know about who won, why they won, and what's next for both super bowl teams. Enjoy the super bowl, everybody.
- [66:47]
Michael Shawn Dugar
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