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Scoop City: Inside The NFL
Why John Harbaugh is the Giants' turning point + The Divisional Round Preview
01:29:33
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- [00:00]
James Palmer
Thy ticket, lady Jennifer of Coolidge.
- [00:03]
Diana Rossini
Well, many thanks, good sir. Here is my Discover card.
- [00:09]
James Palmer
They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs?
- [00:11]
Diana Rossini
Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Get it with the times.
- [00:17]
James Palmer
With the times.
- [00:19]
Diana Rossini
You're playing the loot. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right?
- [00:23]
James Palmer
Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [00:32]
Verizon Announcer
In a world where January is supposed to be boring, one staple of the holidays refuses to end the great deals at Verizon. The joy just keeps on coming. Right now, you can save on four new phones and four lines. Critics agree it's the deal that keeps on giving. Come into Verizon and save on four new phones in four lines on unlimited. Welcome additional terms applied seeverizon.com for details.
- [01:01]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home, and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
- [01:36]
Mike McDonald
I can't even tell you what the plot of the second one is. I just get so lost.
- [01:39]
James Palmer
I do, too. And I felt like an idiot. We were watching it and I'm like, am I not. Am I not following what's happening here? I was struggling.
- [01:48]
Mike McDonald
Yeah. My wife is always surprised. I can't tell the plot of these movies when I watch them so frequently with our daughter. You know, I can't tell you the plot of Frozen or Encantional.
- [01:57]
James Palmer
I was just about to bring up Frozen. I was struck struggling with Frozen.
- [02:01]
Mike McDonald
I can't say the plot of any of these except the first one.
- [02:04]
Vic Tafur
The.
- [02:04]
Mike McDonald
The first Moana. They did such a good job putting the. The. The plot in the hook of her dialogue. It was like, yeah, yeah, I am Moana from Montanui. You board my boat. Like I get it.
- [02:26]
James Palmer
Oh, welcome into Scoop City on a Thursday. And you know what that means. That's our Thursday road trip around the NFL. But this is going to be the playoff edition. How about the divisional round edition? Don't forget to like and subscribe. You'll get all the information that drops every single Thursday when we go around the NFL inside these facilities with our unbelievable group of beat reporters. We'll go inside the facilities of both the number one seeds, whether that's the Denver Broncos or the Seattle Seahawks. Go inside the buildings of each of the number two seeds. We'll also go inside the building in New England where Drake May is preparing to go against that unbelievable defense, the best in football, the Houston Texans. How do all of these matchups go down? We'll tell you from the vowels of the people that are with these teams every single day. We also have the massive news of John Harbaugh landing with the New York Giants. Diana Rossini is going to break that down unlike anybody else and how that move changes the landscape for the rest of the coaching hires moving forward. So without further ado, let's get this road trip on the road. All right, we gotta start off with the biggest news of really this entire off season. The athletic senior NFL insider Diana Rossini once again with us here on Scoop City. And Diana, this broke in the dead of night. John Harbaugh, after an unbelievable meeting a lot of people are describing in New York, is going to be the next head coach for the New York Football Giants. What transpired during that. That. What could we call it? That onslaught from New York Giants to make sure that this happened. Don't let them go.
- [03:57]
Diana Rossini
They were hanging on to his ankles at Teterboro, like, right.
- [04:01]
James Palmer
Like everybody was involved in this. It seems like.
- [04:03]
Diana Rossini
Yeah, no, no. And there were six people specifically involved in this meeting that were representing the New York Giants. And it's obviously everybody that's part of ownership. Along with Joe Shane Jackson Dart was also part of some of the meeting. He was there for just a few minutes, meeting with. With John Harbaugh, having a little bit of a conversation, getting to know one another. But from everything I understand, John was really locked in and asking a lot of questions of the New York Giants. And I think everybody wants to know what is it that the Giants sold them? What is it about New York? And I don't really think you have to peel it back that far because John wanted the job. The New York Giants were on his list of teams that he wanted to work for, if anything, and obviously now it was number one. And he can just do that based on how he organized the way he took these formal meetings. You know, on Sunday, he had lunch with Chris Mara and they laid out a lot of the things that John wants and that's where the work really was done. And then when he was able to meet with Joshne in person and the rest of that crew, most of that was just getting to know one another, talking about some of the mistakes they've made in the past and things that they want to do moving forward. And you know, the Tennessee Titans were expecting to be part of this. They were watching Twitter all night last night to see if they were going to have to get on that plane out of Nashville into Baltimore where they were going to meet John Harbaugh at his house on Thursday afternoon. But that, of course did not happen. And he gave them a call around 11:30 Eastern last night to inform them that he would not be meeting with the Tennessee Titans because he was all in on the Giants. And there were a lot of things about the Giants that appealed to him, starting from, from the things that we talk about on the show all the time, right at the top, the ownership. He believes in them, he trusts them. Apparently the relationship already is just off and running in terms of just how they see things. It's so important. You know, it's like, it's like a marriage, right? Like when the foundational things are all in line, everything else kind of just comes together. And so they're going to continue those conversations today. A contract is not official just yet, but there were some discussions of how that would look with John Harbaugh and those six Giants members. So his agent is involved now and we're expected to see him be paid on a five year deal and, and most likely the highest paid coach in football. If not, he, he's up there. He, you know, he's probably a little bit back and forth with Andy Reid.
- [06:28]
James Palmer
Okay, Andy Reid's up there. Sean Payton's up there in that group.
- [06:32]
Diana Rossini
I'm glad we actually brought like, I'm glad I said it. Andy Reid, Andy Reid was part of this. Right. So John really leaned on Andy Reid during this process. Even before Steve Bashotti fired John Harbaugh, he, Jim had reached out to Andy to have some conversations about should I step down if he wasn't going to get fired. What, what does Next look like? 1, Andy Reid has always been a really good friend to John Harbaugh over the years. But of course we all know what Andy did, which was of course leave Philadelphia despite a lot of success and, and take, take his talents to Kansas City where he had ultimate success and continues to. So, you know, there's a, there's a lot of fun little connectors here over the last few weeks and it's only been a few days actually when you think about it, it hasn't been weeks. But I can tell you from talking to about, I don't know, half an hour before I hopped on here with you. They're on cloud nine. It's like talking to new people. They are so refreshed and excited about what's next.
- [07:32]
James Palmer
Yeah, when I text people there, there's a lot of exclamation points. I'll just say that in response to text messages about the way things have gone down now, you mentioned the things that John liked about the organization and those are kind of easy to spot. You mentioned the ownership. He's always had great ownership. He's always been a guy that, like that kind of solid foundation like you mentioned has always been there. There's parts of this roster we know that are. That are kind of there and Jackson Dark plays a part of it. This young core plays a part of it. Alignment is such a big part of what John was looking for, to my understanding. But what are some things, if, you know, if any. Diana, that he might want to go, all right, we need to work on this or in this building. I know coming in that together we need to fix blank. Are there some of those discussions that have already happened?
- [08:14]
Diana Rossini
Yeah, they're already working on some of that stuff. But before we jump into some of those, I am interested in this and I think you are too. Steve Ashadi was not a very hands on owner. He communicated a lot with Eric Dacosta.
- [08:31]
James Palmer
The general manager quietly knows what's going on everywhere in the building.
- [08:34]
Vic Tafur
Correct.
- [08:35]
Diana Rossini
He has eyes and ears in the building, but he's not physically in the building. You even heard him in his press conference talk about how he's run this team. The Mara family is in the building. They're there all the time. Right. So that, that's a different concept. And I've spoken to coaches over the years about the difference between having an owner there every day and an owner that just gives you a call on Monday morning, you know, over FaceTime to discuss the, you know, the Sunday game. So I am curious to see how, how that will work. The Joe Shane element in this, I think is really important to magnify because there were candidates that were concerned about Joe Shane that the Giants were interested in. This was not a nobody cared about Joe Shane storyline. That, that, that is, that is not, not true. I know John Harbaugh entered this interview process with those concerns and he did a lot of homework and he made calls to Brian Dabel and he made calls to people with connections to Joe Shane who've known him for years to just try to understand what he's. If he, if John Harbell Harbaugh felt that he could work with this, and from my understanding, he is. He signed off on it like he. He thinks it can work, and he enjoyed those conversations. Joe is calling him every single day since Bashadi fired Harbaugh. Every day they talked on the phone.
- [10:02]
James Palmer
Let's go. Relentless individual.
- [10:05]
Diana Rossini
And I give credit to Joe Shane for that because he knew he had to bring in this big fish. Because what clears the mistakes, the reputation that Joe has carried over the last few years and a losing season, better than being the GM that brought in a guy that could perhaps change the future of this organization. So press conference is expected to be next week. Well, the deal will most likely probably get done today or tomorrow, maybe even through the weekend, depending on how that goes, but certainly a new day in the New York area.
- [10:36]
James Palmer
Yeah, that's a really good point, bringing up Joe, because that was the part that everybody was kind of looking at. We knew he was such a big part of this search. Diana. Right. You've brought it up here on this show repeatedly. His connection to ownership and his importance in this entire thing. I was kind of fascinated because there's been so many reports out there about what Joe had brought to the building. Right. Kind of modernizing their scouting system, kind of modernizing some of the stuff that they do behind the scenes. And that is a big part of the way John Harbaugh operates. He wants everybody in their particular role to be innovative, to be pushing forward constantly. Right. That's the way John operates. Hey, what are you doing to make us better today? That's like the consistent of John, and I think Joe's done some of those things in the eyes of the Giants. We'll see if they start working together. They consistently feel that way from John Harbaugh and how it works. How does this change the landscape for what's next? I know you and I have talked to a ton of people. It almost has the sense around the league that the next domino would be potentially Kevin Stefanski. Does that still have that feeling? Because there is also a lot of people that just said, if. I'm betting John Harbaugh is going to the Giants. So if that was all kind of.
- [11:37]
Diana Rossini
The problem, everyone was operating like this, like it was always John Harbaugh and the Giants. Now, look, we've been doing this so long, nothing's ever a guarantee. And it was hard to just be like, yeah, this is it. Because we knew that they had a meet, and the smallest things could change the direction of where these meetings go. And they could have disagreed on Important things and stuff that. That John was passionate about, but that's not the case here. So he's in New York. So where does that leave us? Right, so you've got the Atlanta Falcons and the Tennessee Titans who were on Harbaugh's radar, that those are the two other teams that were in play here. And I had heard Atlanta yesterday morning, had had sort of been informed that it was probably not going to happen. They had no interview set up with him formally in person. They had spoke to him over the phone. So Tennessee met with Arthur Smith on Wednesday evening.
- [12:31]
James Palmer
Familiar face.
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Diana Rossini
They are. Yes. Former offensive coordinator. He was there during some of the good years over the last few years. You know, his family lives in. Is from Memphis.
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Joe Biscalia
They, they.
- [12:42]
Diana Rossini
They live in. You know, they're kind of. They're Tennessee people.
- [12:46]
James Palmer
Pretty prominent family.
- [12:47]
Diana Rossini
And I know ownership likes Arthur like that, that's for sure.
- [12:49]
James Palmer
Yeah.
- [12:51]
Diana Rossini
And so Mike McCarthy will meet with the Titans on Saturday. Robert Sala will also meet. Excuse me. Over zoom with the Titans on Sunday. Niners play Saturday. Right. So he'll do that Sunday. And then I'm expecting this thing to get moving next week. James. Like, I think that's when. Look, I know the Titans are going to still have a second round of interviews, so that may take a little bit of time, but as we know in this league, once team starts, everyone gets kind of ants in their pants. Once they see a team make a hire like this, they want to get moving, too. So, of course, next week should be pretty blockbuster.
- [13:25]
James Palmer
Okay. I like that there are the teams that we oftentimes don't bring up because we've been focused so much on John Harbaugh. And those three teams keep coming up, but they're still Cleveland, they're still Vegas, there's still Arizona. There's these other spots that are also bringing in people for interviews as well. But then there's the one up in Green Bay that we're just kind of. I think everybody in the NFL is just waiting for Matt LaFleur to put pen to paper. I think that's just kind of a, you know, just, just keep one eye on what's happening here, because as good as Matt is, I kind of thought of this this morning. Every contract plays a part in other contracts.
- [13:59]
Joe Biscalia
Right.
- [13:59]
James Palmer
And I know it's apples and oranges because John Harbaugh was a free agent. And often, we know in free agency, numbers are always higher. But when I looked at the numbers between John Harbaugh and Matt LaFleur from 2019, when Matt took the job in Green Bay, Matt's 76, 41, 76, 40 and 1. John Harbaugh is 76 and 41. Their playoff records are 3 and 5 and 3 and 6, 3 and 6 for Matt LaFleur. There's a lot of comps there. Matt could use to say, hey man, we've been essentially similar lately over a pretty good stretch of time. Do you think a deal getting done with John and changes the pacing or the negotiations that's going on up in. Up in Green Bay by any stretch.
- [14:42]
Diana Rossini
Here's the problem. When John Harbaugh can sit across the New York Giants who know what it's like to win a Super bowl, he can say he's won a Super bowl too.
- [14:49]
James Palmer
Okay? He's 4 and 6 since he won that Super bowl in 2012 in the postseason.
- [14:53]
Diana Rossini
That is the beauty of that thing, right? Is it carries weight, wait for a long time. It's undefeated. Look, I think let's go back to packers and Matt. I think it's pretty fair to say that they are in deep negotiations right now trying to knock out a contract to keep him in Green Bay, which, which is, you know, from what I can gather as of yesterday afternoon, all signs point to this getting done. In terms of the value of it. I would expect Matt LaFleur to. To be more in the. In that middle rank of coaches that just did deals, right. The most recent contract outside the newer ones. When we're talking extensions here, Kevin o' Connell comes comes to mind as a name of a number that would. You'd probably be around that what Kevin o' Connell got. Kevin signed a pretty long deal. I would. I would expect Matt to probably sign a shorter one, but we'll see how it shakes out. But yeah, I think all signs point to that getting done. There can always be a snag. And I said, I think everybody is kind of watch out because you don't know. But. But it felt really good talking to a lot of different people close to it yesterday that you aren't getting any like, hold, hold up, like, or even some back channeling from the packers on coaches because that would be pretty telling too. So that's not happening. And means, by the way, the other one you didn't mention because I was kind of internally thinking as you were saying it. I know you're right. We have not focused on the Raiders that much. We have not focused on the Arizona Cardinals. We have not done much with the Browns. And the Steelers are late to the game, right? So they just started and I did a other. I did a show this morning and they were like, what are the Steelers looking for? And I'm like, I think the Steelers are trying to figure out what the Steelers are looking for. Yeah, Right. Because this is all just happening. And so I, I also think it probably wouldn't hurt if they go with the formula that they just had. They did pretty well.
- [16:51]
James Palmer
I think it worked. I think it worked really well. We know what that formula is essentially.
- [16:55]
Joe Biscalia
Right.
- [16:55]
James Palmer
It's we're going. We're going a little younger. We're going a leader of men. We're going oftentimes the defensive side of the ball. We'll see. They could break precedent. That's not locked in, but that's always kind of been what they're looking for. Art Rooney, actually the one running this entire one, a part of the one with Mike Tomlin, but now he's fully running this search. Diana, you're the greatest. Skip, I see you on the phone already. Get back to the phones. You're the best.
- [17:14]
Mike McDonald
Awesome.
- [17:15]
James Palmer
And I will talk with you.
- [17:16]
Diana Rossini
I'm sure I'll see you in an hour. Bye.
- [17:18]
James Palmer
We'll be talking to you. Diana always brings the goods when the breaking news happens. But you know who else brings the goods? That's our beat reporters across the country. Nobody better at covering the NFL than this group here at the Athletic. We're going to go through the number one seeds. What do the Seahawks and the Broncos need to do to make sure that that home field advantage was worth it? We'll go inside those buildings next on Scoop City. Oh, could this vintage store be any cuter?
- [17:46]
Diana Rossini
Right. And the best part, they accept Discover.
- [17:49]
James Palmer
Except Discover in a little place like this? I don't think so, Jennifer.
- [17:53]
Diana Rossini
Oh, yeah.
- [17:54]
Joe Biscalia
Huh?
- [17:54]
Diana Rossini
Discover is accepted where I like to shop.
- [17:56]
James Palmer
Come on, baby.
- [17:57]
Diana Rossini
Get with the time.
- [17:59]
Joe Biscalia
Right.
- [18:00]
James Palmer
So we shouldn't get the parachute pants.
- [18:02]
Diana Rossini
These are making a comeback, I think.
- [18:06]
James Palmer
Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [18:14]
Verizon Announcer
In a world where January is supposed to be boring, one staple of the holidays refuses to end the great deals at Verizon. The joy just keeps on coming. Right now, you can save on four new phones and four lines. Critics agree it's the deal that keeps on giving. Come into Verizon and save on four new phones and four lines on unlimited. Welcome. Additional terms apply. See verizon.com for details.
- [18:44]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
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- [19:06]
James Palmer
All right, starting our Thursday road trip. Well, we don't even need to pull the car out of the garage. Maybe we should, or else we'll pass out due to fumes if we do start it. Nick Cosmeier joins us. My good buddy here. Just saw him down at the Broncos facility yesterday as we were covering open locker room before the Broncos massive showdown against the Buffalo Bills, a rematch of last season's postseason game that took place in Buffalo, this one in Denver because of the wild card. I will say this, it's the 20th rematch since 2000, Nick, where teams have played each other in consecutive seasons and 13 of the previous 19 the same team won. Both Broncos fans don't want to hear that, but there could be an X factor in this. It could be one. Mr. Sean Payton, a lot of people believe that there is a coaching advantage with the way Sean operates, maybe particularly in postseason play. He has a chance and a run with the number one seed to do something kind of special. Where do you think Sean Payton fits into the mix of what we're going to see on Saturday afternoon in Denver?
- [20:05]
Nick Cosmeier
Well, that's the, the funny thing, James, sometimes these statistics can collide because Sean Payton has never lost a playoff game after having a buy the previous week, 3. 0 in the divisional round and 1. 0 obviously in the Super bowl in two 2009. And having won that Super Bowl 16 years ago, that puts him in position to do something no other coach in the NFL history has done, which is win a Super bowl with two different franchises. Don Chula won the NFL championship with the Baltimore Colts, but then lost Super Bowl 3 famously to the AFL's New York jets and Joe Namath before winning two Super Bowls with the Dolphins. So in the super bowl era, Sean Payton has a chance with three more wins to do something no other coach has done. And he's also has a chance to win two Super Bowls 16 years apart, longest gap any other coach has had them apart is is Bill Belichick, 10 years between his third and fourth Super bowl titles. So certainly the, the opportunity for history here and I, I just think it is sort of a reminder of what Peyton can provide in, in these moments, Right. Obviously, no coach has a perfect playoff record. He's had his shortcomings in these situations. But with the opportunity to the extra time to prepare, having a Largely rested team going into this postseason and of course, having it at home, where they've only lost once in their last 14 games. You know, there's, There's a lot that they have behind them that I think that they're looking at and saying, we can be optimistic about this.
- [21:34]
James Palmer
Yeah, it's been a fun week with Sean Payton as well. A little testy, a little spicy on the podium. Also telling us all about the myths of the postseason. Right, Nick? Also, the funny part is that he says they're myths. They're all the things he said at the beginning of the season. They were pulling for and needed to have happen for them to make a successful run in the postseason, which is kind of hilarious. Let's talk about that first game that they had in the wild card matchup against each other last year, and it was 31 to 7. Twice as many total yards and first downs by the Bills compared to the Denver Broncos. More than 247 yards the Bills had over the Broncos, most in playoff history in Buffalo's franchise. Now, what's the biggest difference? You're with this group every day. You're with them every day last year. Biggest difference from the Broncos team that lost that game to this one is what?
- [22:22]
Nick Cosmeier
Well, I think the biggest difference is just like a belief in who they are, a sense of their belonging as a contender. I think obviously, last year you had a team that went. Went 10, 7. Surprised a lot of people for even being in that position, but they were the number seven seed on the road against a very strong number two seed at home. It was, it was a really tall order for, For, For Bo Nix to go in there in his first playoff game and try to get a win. And really, I thought he, he played okay. I, I mean, 13 to 22, 144 yards, had 43 yards rushing. They just, they just did not look ready for that moment. The receivers had four charge drops, probably could have been closer to five or six, didn't play well. They couldn't run the football. And then a defense that had largely improved on the ground last year just. Just really kind of fell apart against James Cook and Josh Allen in that, that run game, giving up 210 rushing yards. So I, I just think overall, they have a better sense of who they are. They, they obviously went out and got some additions to, to really shore up the spine of that defense. And talonohufanga, who's been excellent, a second team all pro this season, Dre Greenlaw has obviously been up and down with, with injuries but when he's been in there has really given them an edge and he, he's expected to return on Saturday. So I think they're a little bit more that they've got some reinforcements, personnel wise, but also just, I think after going through a season in which you, you win 11 games in a row, you do it in a fashion in many weeks where you're, you're having to overcome a lot of different adversity and then just having again, the, the home crowd laying out this vision that we wanted to have this game at home and then now having it, I just think they're in a better place in terms of who they are and what they can accomplish.
- [24:04]
James Palmer
Yeah. And Bo's been outstanding at home. Right. That's one of the things that he's been great with. Obviously, he's won a lot of games in his first two years right up there with the tops ever through their first two seasons. He's never faced a top three pass defense in his career. And this is the number one passing defense in the NFL. You could say a lot of teams just don't throw, though, because the run side of it has been suspect for Buffalo, but they only allow 16.3 completions per game, a little more than 159 yards per game. If Denver can't run the football, and we'll see if they can. The Bills had a lot of issues against it. I don't know why Liam Cohen didn't run the football more, but had a lot of issues against it with Jacksonville and motions and making those guys move. What, what do you see happening with Bo? If RJ Harvey and Jahil McLaughlin can't run the football and it's put on his shoulders against this secondary, can he still find a way to put points on the board against Josh Allen and Buffalo?
- [25:01]
Nick Cosmeier
Yeah. And that's where you, I, I think hope that some of the, some of the extra time that you've really had to dig in. Because look, Sean Payton, we talked to him on Friday, you know, said obviously they at that point did not know who their opponent was going to be, that there was still four different teams that it could potentially be. But, you know, we'd be foolish not to think that they had already started digging in really hard on Buffalo, you know, just based on kind of the opportunity that they had to win in Jacksonville. You know, they had just seen the Chargers, that's a division opponent, so they would have already had a head start there. So I think this is, this is a situation where they have really gone Hard over the last couple of weeks, looking at this, Bill's defense, Sean Payton talked about it the other day of what they do so well in disguising, disguising coverage. It's going to be a huge challenge. I think one of the things that they're going to do with Bo Nix is really try to move the pocket. That. That's what. That's. That's something that he kind of has as an edge that we maybe didn't see a lot with with what Jacksonville did with. With Trevor Lawrence. Even though they're capable of doing that, I think kind of get. Get out of the pocket and allow yourself to get a better read of the picture of what they're trying to do. And then I think, obviously, Bo Nix's scrambling ability is going to be a huge factor in this game. We've seen it the last two weeks against the Chiefs and Chargers in games the Broncos had to win to keep their. Their hopes of the number one seed alive. He started becoming more of a threat with his legs, kind of like what we saw during his rookie year. And so I think those are going to be some of the ways that they supplement what they do offensively. But you're right, they are a tough. A tough defense to crack in the secondary, really hard to pick up some big plays against. Obviously, the Broncos had the big touchdown throw in their opening drive in the Wild Card game and then didn't reach the end zone again. So it's certainly a challenge. And I think having had the experience, though, of playing it in the postseason, you know, that's another thing that they can draw on.
- [26:52]
James Palmer
Postseason experience doesn't matter.
- [26:53]
Joe Biscalia
Myth.
- [26:56]
James Palmer
I'll ask you, and you're right. You're right about Bo, too, because, you know, I don't think anybody has more temps and yards on the move in the NFL than Bo Nix on the other side of the ball. We know that there is pretty much the X factor of the entire postseason in Josh Allen and so many teams. I talk to Nick, talk about the second play breaks down. He's unbelievable with his legs or with his arm and making plays. But what we saw him do against Jacksonville was he was very accurate, very quick with the football, very precise. A lot of people I've talked to said it's one of the best games he's played from the pocket. Just from a quarterback standpoint. If he starts doing that, I think that makes him even more dangerous. How does this group up front. My first part of the question is get after him, because we know that on the Edge, they're very quick and on the interior they win their one on ones regularly as well. How important is hitting him getting to him quick or do you cage him? And then the other part is you have the defensive player of the year that plays corner and they don't have very much of an offense outside the numbers. You allow Pat Sartan to be part of what you're defending and be an impact player as one of the best defensive players in football.
- [27:57]
Nick Cosmeier
Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a great point and I, I think they will probably end up moving him around a little bit because of the fact that I, I think with their receiving core you're going to trust some of your other guys, you know, to, to guard Shakir, Brandon Cooks, whoever else it is that they have out there with Riley Moss, with Jaquan McMillan, with Jade Baron to where you're at. You're letting passer tan in, in key matchup situations, potentially even, you know, cover Adult and Kincaid or, or Dawson Knox when, when they think that situation calls for that. I think Vance Joseph is going to be creative in terms of how he moves him around because you're right, Josh Allen doesn't depend on any one receiver. So if you're just like letting Pat Certain be outside and lock down, you know, whether it's Shakir or whoever else is out there, that's not really necessarily, you know, a huge net gain for you. Because of the way that Josh Allen distributes at nine different receivers, I think caught passes in the game against the Jaguars, you're right about what he did against Jacksonville. I thought getting rid of the ball quickly, I mean, I think that's the one way that you try to beat this defense, but that's still going to put you into third down situations. And so as, as long as the Broncos I think can, can make big gains against the, against the run, I don't see them having anywhere near as porous a performance against the run as they did down in Buffalo last year. This is the number two run defense in the league this year. We obviously just saw what Jacksonville's number one run defense was able to do against Buffalo. So I think if you can do that, you can limit some of that. Even, even if you're giving up some of these quick passes that Josh Allen had, you're still going to be, I think in enough third downs to where that's when you know Vance Joseph's ability. When you talk about 18 different guys on this roster who have contributed to their sack total, he's going to find a way to get a free rusher, and then it's, can you. Can you bring him down or can you slow him down long enough for the second or third guy to get there? Because talking to these guys in the locker room, they know that's what it takes to ultimately bring him down.
- [29:50]
James Palmer
Yeah, that's a great point. I love what you count. Bring me in that locker room. I love it. I was in there yesterday talking to Pat, and it did seem kind of like, you know, he was like, their tight ends are so good and Kincaid and Knox, and. And then I got the sense where I don't know how much he's going to actually be on them. I talked to a defensive coach that knows a little bit about Pat from another team was just kind of like, I. I would just have him lock down that one outside and then put all your resources to the other portions of it. That might be what you do. He may not get a whole lot of targets, but it might be able to change what Vijay does. We'll see, Nick. I'll see you up there in that spread at the press box at Mile High. I mean, it's always good every year, by the way. And in the playoffs, it's gotten a lot better, man. Last couple years, prime rib station, everything. It's going to be great. I'll see you up there on Saturday, buddy.
- [30:34]
Kevin Fishbane
All right, James.
- [30:34]
Nick Cosmeier
Thanks a lot, buddy.
- [30:36]
James Palmer
All right, the other side of this rematch that was in the wild card round a season ago between the Bills and the Broncos. Now for the Bills side of things, Joe Biscalia joins us. And, Joe, you were there in Jacksonville. I was just watching on tv, but I could feel how physical that game was. And now they have to go across the country to elevation play a team that's heavily rested on a shorter week vibe in the locker room. Are we. Are we sore? How did we manage this week with everything that I just mentioned so they can be as fresh as possible against Denver?
- [31:05]
Joe Biscalia
Oh, they're definitely sore. I mean, they did get two torn ACLs to their wide receiver room in that wild card round, which is not exactly great, considering their wide receiver room has been a constant topic of conversation here. And one of those two was Tyrell Shavers, who carved out a really nice role for them, not only as a guy who takes a bunch of snaps, but as their best run blocking receiver, which infinitely helped those outside runs that we see them run a ton, that. That will definitely be a loss to them. So in terms of getting through the week, the One you want to keep an eye on above all else is just because who he is, and that's Josh Allen, because it looked like on the one touchdown, the knee really got bent in a different way than it should have. But. But from everything that I saw from him during this week of practice, it seems like a guy who is. Who is ready to go and as well as he could be at this point. And just watching him throughout the years, I never get the sense that he is going to let something other than a significant injury hinder him in any sort of way. Like, I think back to when they played the Buccaneers. I think it was in 2021, where it was an overtime game that they ultimately left lost, but it was a catalyst to them going on a run that year. I remember him making a massive run through the middle of the defense and then going out right before the goal line and messing up his foot pretty good to the point where he was in a walking boot after the game. Not only did he finish the rest of that game still running like crazy, but played the next week. So there's just nothing about Josh Allen that makes me think that he is going to let anything, especially in the playoffs, keep him from being his 100% self.
- [32:41]
James Palmer
Yeah, and that's the sense I get being in this Broncos locker room this week when I talk to players, is we are expecting Josh Allen, period. That's the guy we're looking for. And you mentioned those injuries at the ACL with. With Shavers and with Gabe Davis. So many of these top quarterbacks, Joe, and you know, this, are about trust, and they throw the ball to the guys that they really, really trust. We saw as the season went on the trust he had in Shavers. We've always known the trust he's had in Gabe Davis. The other guy that I'm, I think is a linchpin to this game is a guy that he trusts in the slot in Khalil Shakir. I mean, he goes 12 for 12 this past week for 82 yards. There's a really good slot corner in Jaquan McMillan here in Denver. That battle, to me, do you see that being something that we should keep our eye on between those two? Because that's also putting the football somewhere else other than anywhere near Patrick Surtan.
- [33:32]
Joe Biscalia
Yeah, no doubt. I mean that. Plus, I am very compelled to see what the Broncos decide to do if they decide to have him have certain travel with Brandon Cooks. Which is. Which would be my guess, because, you know, the opposite to that would be Keon Coleman based on who they have left. So Shakir and Cooks are pretty much the main two right now for the Bills in. In being able to open things up from a wide receiver perspective. But I will say this. Dalton Kincaid could have a sneakier big role heading into this game, just because it's the war of attrition at this point. Like, you, you only have so many bodies. Like, they might get Curtis Samuel back from IR, but even still, he hasn't played since week 11, I think, and Nicole Hardman maybe is their call up, maybe Christian Wilkerson, something. These are guys that have not taken a ton of snaps and not been targeted a ton by Josh Allen in the regular season. So to me, Kincaid is kind of like an outlier here to where, you know, you have this Shakir matchup that we're talking about, which I do think he can have some degree of success in that matchup just because of where they target him, how often they target him. But I just think, too, where did they have their best matchup advantage in terms of when they drop back to pass? And Kincaid just continues to come to my mind because as good as the Broncos defense has been, I do wonder if there's some opportunity to take advantage of those linebackers in coverage. If they get their run game going and Kincaid would be the number one guy to do it, and then even their safety lock, I think there could be some potential to take advantage of there. So Kincaid is one I've certainly had my eye on coming into this game. In addition to their run game, which I. I think the Bills are going to have a spirited effort to try and get this thing right back to where it was rather than where it was last week.
- [35:20]
James Palmer
Yeah, that's a great point. Before I get to that, I had a casual conversation with Patrick Surtan yesterday, who kind of just brought up, like, Dalton Kincaid's the truth, man. Like, he kind of just brought it up himself about what he thinks. And I also talked to McMillan, so his focus was this essentially, like, off the line of scrimmage. He thinks the world of what Shakir can do. He's got to be right there about his releases right off the line. But he's like my number one thing he told me was I have to tackle. Like, I have to tackle well, because Shakir is so good breaking tackles and after the catch. And they know they don't want those kind of chunky plays to happen with as good as their pass rush is, the more times Josh has to drop back, the better for them. You mentioned the run, the Run game. This is they, they went against the number one rush defense in football in Jacksonville. Okay, you won that game. You now go against the number two rush defense in football in Denver. What didn't work against Jacksonville with this run game with James Cook that you think that they saw and might change to find some success against this Denver run game?
- [36:18]
Joe Biscalia
You know, that is the exact right question because I have been trying to figure that out this entire week and to the fact where I was a couple minutes late here because I was talking to a couple of the offensive linemen to try and go to work. Joe, I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm doing my, my one. However many beat reporters here, we have here 1 32nd we. We'll say to me, going back and watching the Jaguars tape and then thinking about. And then going back and watching what the Bills did against the Broncos last, last playoffs from a run perspective, because Cook, I think had 79 yards in the first quarter, if I'm not mistaken in that one. It was a, it was a definite overmatching.
- [36:59]
James Palmer
Yeah.
- [36:59]
Joe Biscalia
Yes. The Jaguars game to me seemed more like they did away with the run game more quickly than we've. We've seen from them in the past because for the first time in quite some time, the past game was how they were buttering their bread throughout the game. Now, credit to the Jaguars because they were shedding some blocks and they were making some of the Bills really good offensive linemen throughout the year. Kind of had some bad reps on tape that maybe dissuaded them from going that route, but they did have a pop play on a pitch to the left that went for 11 yards. There was another play that looked well blocked. Same thing, pitch to the left. Cook decided to try and reverse field because it was wide open. And then Trayvon Walker stops him for a zero yard gain. I think that was this close. It just seemed like they were this close the entire time to popping one. And then by the time they got to the fourth quarter because Josh Allen was such in a groove, James Cook only carried the ball twice in the fourth quarter on, on both of their series. So that's not to say that the Jaguars didn't do some good things because they definitely stopped them and as Joe Brady has called it, forced them into some bloody runs, which is, you know, these short yardage where it's just like physicality the whole way. But I do think that there was more meat on the bone than what meets the eyes with the statistics. And I would not be surprised if the Bills try to go the physical route and try to establish themselves on the ground to take some of the pressure off of that passing game because the receiver room is so banged up and try to build themselves into a two dimensional play action style attack in this one that that would me be my guess as to where their priorities lie.
- [38:44]
James Palmer
Let's going into this one, it makes sense. It certainly does. All right, before we go, Denver, they haven't run the football very well, but guess what? Buffalo hasn't defended the run very well through the course of this year. There's a guy on that defensive front that everybody in Denver is kind of curious, is Ed Oliver going to play that short area? Quickness in the middle of the field can change a lot of what Denver wants to do with their offensive line. Joe. Like, it's funny, I was Talking to Mike McGlinchey yesterday who said, you know, I haven't even watched a whole lot of film with, with, with Ed as part of their D line because he's been out for so long. Like I, you know, I haven't really gotten to that part and I've watched a lot. Can he go and if he does, how different is that group up front?
- [39:25]
Joe Biscalia
Yeah, to Mike McGlinchey's point, he's played in three games this year and one of them he was injured pretty quickly in that Panthers game. The Bills are being coy about it, as you would expect this time of year. You know, ask I asked Sean McDermott today on Thursday is how did Ed Oliver come through in his first physical practice? And he's like, you know, we, we, we saw, we, we saw some good things and just kind of left it at that. Nothing didn't expound on it one bit after that. If it is my guess right here, and I'm not reporting this, if it is my guess based on what I have seen at practice and just kind of some senses that I get and the vibes that I get from the building, my guess is that at Oliver goes this week and it would be a humong to what they're trying to do because not only is he an excellent player and I wouldn't expect him to get full complement of snaps if he does, that would be remarkable in his first game back, you know, let alone practicing for the first time since October this week. But if he can give them some snaps specifically on third down, some pass rushing snaps, that is a humongous thing for them. And not only that, it helps shift Daquan Jones who has had a really nice season and you know, played a really good game against the Jaguars. He's been playing out of position basically the entire time Ed Oliver has been away. He's been starting next to Deon Walker. Deion Walker's been the 1 technique. Daquan Jones has been the 3. Daquan Jones is a 1 technique in the bill system, but he's just kind of adapted and gotten through it. So because Ed Oliver might come back, it might shift Aquan Jones into his more natural position to where it could shift this entire thing. And I've really got my eyes on that interior of the Bills pass rush those guys, specifically against the Broncos interior offensive line because Forsyth has been really has been really nice for them in, you know, helping them out get through the the reps without Wattenberg. And, you know, Ben Powers just got back and I think that could be a couple of areas where those guys could attack. And the Sean McDermott has always said the fastest point A to point B to get to the passer is with the interior. That's why they invest so heavily into it. And if they have their success and get Bo Nicks off his spot and force him into some air passes, I think that's going to be the group that does it.
- [41:42]
James Palmer
Oh, unbelievable. Great stuff. You always forget when somebody goes down, it's not like you just lose that position. A lot of times it's like somebody's got to slide over. My tackle has to move to the other side or my guard goes a tackle or same thing on the D line. It oftentimes makes you weaker at two spots sometimes. Don't tell Ed Oliver that the stock show's in town here in Denver because I want him focused on the game and not all of the action that's happening down the road there at the stock show this weekend. Joe, see you here in Denver, man, very soon. Looking forward to seeing you first to first person and not virtually.
- [42:13]
Joe Biscalia
Sounds good, my man. Thanks for having me as always.
- [42:16]
James Palmer
All right, man. All right, moving on. On our Thursday Scoop City postseason edition of our road Trip, Michael Shawn Dugard joins us as we stick with the number one seeds. They rested just like Denver as they now await a very familiar foe in the 49ers who they played in week 18. We'll get to that, Mike. But I you really wrote this great piece and everybody go to the Athletic and please read this on Sam Darnold. There's so many different aspects of playing quarterback. We know physically he can do it. The draft part of it shows us that, right, Mike? He can do things on a football field, very talented quarterbacks can do. But the other parts of it, the mental side of it, the mental determination in that sense, all the other mental aspects of the game you went into here, and they're only heightened in the postseason. One of the biggest questions are, can we trust Sam Darnold in the postseason? Your reporting shows us what.
- [43:08]
Mike McDonald
Yeah, you know, the Seahawks feel very confident that they can because of how they approach this. You know, Sam, that Seeing Ghost game we go back to, the game was like, I'm seeing ghosts. Right. That's one of, I believe, three times that he has had four interceptions and accounted for no turnovers. Right. I think he's the only quarterback who's done that that many times since 2000.
- [43:26]
Kevin Fishbane
Right.
- [43:27]
Mike McDonald
So he's got a history of basically imploding. Right. Okay, well, how do you get a guy to not see ghosts? Well, it reminds me of the movie Inception. That's kind of what I pitched when I was talking about when I wrote that story. This is what I pitched to my editor. I was telling him about. It's like that scene in Inception where they're explaining the concept of the movie, and he says, all right, don't think about elephants. Well, what's the guy immediately thinking about elephants? And he knows that I'm thinking about elephants because you told me not to think about elephants. Quarterbacks are the same thing. Drew Locke and I. Drew Locke's the backup quarterback. Drew and I were talking about that this week. If you get the play call and you're like, all right, Spider2y banana. All right, let's protect the ball here. All right, well, what are you now thinking about if you're the quarterback, you know, like protecting the ball, you know, as opposed to just executing Spider2y banana or whatever the play call is. And Sam just. He comes off as a guy who would rather you just let him be him. You know, Drew had mentioned that to me, and Mike McDonald even told me this week. They do that intentionally. They coach him up to just be him. They don't go out and say, don't throw picks. You know, that doesn't work. Because what's he going to be thinking about once you say that? Throwing picks, you know, And I think it really. Although Sam has thrown a lot of interceptions this year, what stands out is what he's done after that, you know, after he threw four against the Rams in week 11, what did he do? He led him from the one yard line in the field goal range for a shot to win it.
- [44:47]
Vic Tafur
All right?
- [44:47]
Mike McDonald
He threw two more in week 16 against the Rams. What did he do after that? Well, he walked them down in overtime through the game tying touchdown and then a two point conversion to win it, you know, so I think that that that's part of why the Seahawks feel so confident and that Sam will just be Sam. It's the psychology of it, you know, it's just going out here and not telling them whether or not to think about elephants. Basically.
- [45:07]
James Palmer
Yeah, I, I was thinking of Inception, but I also was thinking of Race Dance AKA Dan Aykroyd on top of that building going clear your brains, don't think of anything. And then the Stay Puft Marshmallow man in Ghostbusters comes up and he just couldn't not think of the Stay Puft Garch. And I'll say this too, I, I host this show with some Steve Smith Sr. And Steve has always told me when specifically with receivers, when things don't go well, drop thing like that, his eyes immediately go to the receiver on what is you doing the next play, the next series. How do you mentally kind of bounce back from anything that goes against you on a football field and quarterback? It's always probably, probably magnified than other parts of it. Real quick, before we get to this game, the other player in all of that is Clint Kubiak and the man who runs this offense. I think what we know about out Clint as a, as a nation here of football fans, Mike is like obviously his dad's a Super bowl winning coach and Gary Kubiak, Mike Shanahan have created this kind of system that so many use. He's a master of that. He's a great play caller and it kind of ends there. But he's a head coaching kind of candidate here in this cycle. You've been around him on a daily basis and you've seen him on a practice field. What other traits are there about why teams are interested in Clint Kubiak and do you think he is a good, good head coaching candidate?
- [46:19]
Mike McDonald
Yeah, you know, I think as far as being a good head coaching candidate, it's hard to know until the guy gets in the chair because there's just so many things that they're going to experience for the first time. But where I think that Clint maybe has the upper hand on some of these other first time guys who are interviewing for jobs in this cycle is that he does have his dad and he and his dad are close, that if he does have to experience just the little things about being a coach, you know, for the first time, like all right, dad, how do I handle this? You know, my practice structure with this, or dealing resting veterans in week 13 or how we want to do this? You know, he's got that kind of built in, you know, helper there. And I know Gary will help him do that, whereas other guys will just, you know, Mike McDonald hired Leslie Frazier, for instance. That's not the same. Leslie ain't Mike's dad. Right. Like, it's a different relationship there to have someone walk you through that. And, you know, on top of that, I asked guys about Clint Kubiak this week, on and off the record, you know, Cooper Cup. When I asked him whether Clint would be a great head coach, he was like. He's like, wait a minute, man. You advocating. You want me to advocate up here on the podium for him to go, you know?
- [47:20]
Vic Tafur
Yeah.
- [47:20]
Mike McDonald
He was like, I don't want do that. But then, you know, he. He's saying, you know, clench praises now. Ask some other guys. They were just like, it doesn't. They almost. They didn't know how to put it in the words. They were like, it doesn't make sense because they're like, I'll run through a wall for him, but he's not the traditional run through a wall for you guy, like a Pete Carroll or even a Dan Campbell currently. Like, Clint may not say more than six words, but those six words are enough to get you to run through that wall. And I didn't really know he was that type of guy until I was talking to guys this week, most of them off the record, because they were like. Like, Cooper. They're like, I don't want just all this out there. I don't want anyone to take my coach, you know, Gray Zabel, their star rookie guard. The same thing at the podium. He was like, yeah, man, Clint's the worst coach ever. I don't think anyone should hire him, you know, because they don't want this guy to go. They'd be. They'll be happy for him if he does. But I think it's. He finds just a different way to get guys to believe in being the best version of themselves. I think Sam, as we just talked about, is maybe the best example. But that extends down to wide receiver 5 and running back 3. And you feel the backup left tackle, you know, Kubiak just has this subtle way of just, like, saying few words. But those words get you to believe in your job, know what your job is, and trust that he gave you the answers to the test. So on Sunday, you can just go do your job to the best of your ability. And that's. That's all you could ever want in a head coach, no matter your special teams background, offensive background or defensive background.
- [48:37]
Kevin Fishbane
I don't know.
- [48:38]
James Palmer
That's a pretty good endorsement I think you gave him. I did the same thing as you because I didn't really see it. See it. And I covered Gary for a long time in Houston. I covered him when I was a beat reporter there. And I just kind of asked around going, does Clinton? And he like, was like, no, he's. He's got a little bit of that, you know, what that Gary has to him as well. And there's that similarity that kind of plays in that little dick to him, you know, like, got a chance to kind of play, you know, push and push and prod a little bit the way Gary's really good at. And I think Clint does the same thing with his offense. And the way that they played so physical in week 18. I mean, I don't think you see that happen to the Niners a whole lot where they just get out physical in a game.
- [49:14]
Vic Tafur
Do you.
- [49:14]
James Palmer
Do you see this playing out the same way as Week 18 played, Mike? And also the run game was a big part of that. I think they went for what, 171off of 33. I think it was what's changed in the run game and is that physicality going to stay there? Because that usually doesn't happen against San Francisco.
- [49:32]
Mike McDonald
Yeah, I think there was a unique factor there in which the Niners, I don't believe, even had a full speed practice going into that. They were just beat up, had a few night games in a row. The Niners are going to practice actually full speed, and so I think that'll help them not come out flat on both sides of the ball like they did. But the physicality was a huge part of it, and it was no accident. You know, there was so much on the line. It was fun hearing from guys that week. It was. They were like, mike, we want to win the division. We want to win the one seed. That's great. But we also just want to beat them because they beat us. You know, that was a revenge game for them. They didn't like that in week one. They came in there and beat them on this dramatic fashion. They were just pissed. So, like, all right, we owe you for week one more than anything else. And if we get the one seed and win a division as a consequence of that, great, great. Pull out the cigars, you know, so I'll Be very curious to see if they can find that same kind of added motivation this week, you know, because now you just beat them. Now the roles are reversed. You came into their house on national TV for the division, beat up on them in a particular way that we don't see, as you mentioned, and then smoke cigars in their locker room. All right, now, do you still have that hunger in you? I would imagine the answer is yes. And that's why you do things like draft a fullback in the, in the off season. That's why you do things like be one of the best 12 personnel offenses in the league, run a lot of 21 personnel. That stuff is so that in January when you get under center and you got a fullback in there, the other team has to strap their pads on for 60 minutes and deal with that. To quote the great East Oakland orator Marshawn lynch, over and over and over and over and over again. Right. That's why he said it that way, because that's real. No one wants to deal with that. And so I think the Seahawks built their offense that way and struggled to run the ball for most of the year. Knowing that, hey, in December and January is going to come together. And you're correct, they went for 170. Ken Walker and Jack Charbonnet did that was their third straight game going at least for 130 together in the last three games they've averaged 5.5 yards per carry and eight first down runs per game in the last three. So they've hit their stride and that's important because that physicality is how they would win this game.
- [51:40]
James Palmer
Yeah, that's the Kubiak marathon of thinking honestly the way they think of a season. I remember Gary being that way back in the day as well in the way a season continues to play out. We know, speaking of running backs, that Christian McAffrey is the focal point of the what San Francisco does. He's the do it all weapon. And George Kittle going down probably even emphasizes that even further. I, I, I need you to take me into the building about the big nickel three that they play and Nicki Minwari and kind of the way he plays in the, I don't know what he doesn't play actually. Maybe you, you'd be better at it than me in terms of is he a Christian McCaffrey eraser? Is. And what did Mike McDonald's experience with Kyle Hamilton play into how we've seen this happen very quickly about a guy that we all should be watching when they play Saturday night?
- [52:28]
Nick Cosmeier
Yeah.
- [52:28]
Mike McDonald
Nikki McWarrior, their second round pick at South Carolina, is basically like a skeleton key that just unlocks every aspect of the defense. You know, if you. If you go out there and with 11 personnel. All right, we got Nick. You know, he's fast enough to guard your third receiver, whether that's Justin Jefferson, who he was able to guard against Minnesota, or he can run down the field against Houston's Jalen Noel, who runs a 4 3, just like Nick does. You know, you come out in 12 personnel. All right, well, Nick can guard your. Your other tight end, your number two guy, or he can guard Kittle, which he did a lot in the first meeting or. Yes, in the week 18 meeting. And if you come in 13 personnel, like the Rams. Rams like to do a lot of. All right, cool. Nick can stop the run because he's strong as hell. You know, he can get in the box and be a real pass rusher, be a real edge setter, so he can just do a little bit of everything so they don't have to change personnel and do all this subbing. And it really probably makes their practice more efficient, too. You know, you don't have to say. All right, here's our. Here's our nickel, guys. All right, come in. All right, base, base, base. You know, you've seen how practice works. They shout out all the personnel, and after. Yeah, you know, dime, dime, dime. You know, a guy usually comes on with 10, 10 fingers up. I ain't got to do none of that. You got Nicki Minwari. Everybody stays on the field, and we can stop whatever you do, and we can do it really well at a high level. And that's. The Knick's the key. Kyle Hamilton gave them some of that as well, but I think his coverage skill set is a little different because Nick's a lot faster, whereas Kyle's a little bit rangier. You know, true free safety in that way. Saw that at Notre Dame. So Mike's experience, I think, helped there. But also it was Mike's secret.
- [54:02]
Chad Graff
His.
- [54:02]
Mike McDonald
His secret sauce, I think, is he just sees you and sees what you do well, and it's like, all right, let's try to maximize that in every possible way. I don't care what you can't do. I care about what you do really well. I don't put you in position to do that. And with Nick, it just happens to be so many different things, and it allows them to dictate terms on defense in an off. In a league right now where the offense usually is the last one holding the pen before the snap.
- [54:25]
James Palmer
Yeah, I mean, it's awesome. I mean, so many teams around the league are trying this right now, but I don't think they have this player. I, I, they just don't in, in a lot of these other places that are playing this kind of big nickel, as it's called across the league. And it's, it's really fun to watch the Seattle defense play the way they play. Real quick, Mike, you gotta, you have a prediction or, or just a, something you have your eye on maybe for Saturday night that would determine this game. Outside of, I think Nick's a big one, but outside of that.
- [54:51]
Mike McDonald
Yeah, I mean, Sam protecting the ball, I do think that is important. You know, he did lead the league in turnovers. He was second in turnover rate. Tied with Brock Purdy, though, for what that's worth. So they both these quarterbacks need to protect the ball. The difference is we've seen Brock play in a ton of big playoff games at this point, and he usually plays like himself. You know, he doesn't, doesn't have to go higher, doesn't have to be worse. Just he's the Brock we see in the regular season, in the postseason. We haven't yet seen that from Sam. You know, he's, I think he's the only quarterback in the NFC side of the bracket who now hasn't won a playoff game. Right. So we need to see that part of it from him. We need to see him just be Sam. And the other part is whether the Seahawks can get explosives from someone other than Jackson, Smith and Jigba, you know, because quietly, the Seattle's offense has not played well in this matchup. They played okay. You know, they scored 13 points in week one and then 13 points in week 18. Right. And that's with a banged up 49ers defense. No Fred Dee Winters got hurt in the, in the last game. No Nick Bosa, no Mikel Williams. It would take us a lot longer on this show to rattle off all the guys that have gotten hurt for the 49ers this season. My goodness. So even without that, though, they only scored 13 points. Right? So can you score more than that? Can someone other than Jackson, Smith and Jigba have more than 40 yards receiving? You know, which wasn't the case in week 18. So as good as the offense is, Robert Sala is as good a defensive coordinator as there is, you know, in the NFL. You know, Clint Kubiak has interviewed, I believe, for six of the nine openings, and that's just because he can't interview for the Steelers one yet. Robert Sala is just as highly coveted, if not more from his side of the ball. So that that headset matchup I think will decide this game, really, because Robert Sala' done a great job kind of making something out of little. I don't want to say something out of nothing, but just something out of being an undermanned unit. He's done a great job.
- [56:39]
James Palmer
Yeah, that's awesome. Awesome. Enjoy the game. I know the atmosphere will be just unbelievable. I know you get down there early, enjoy the atmosphere, enjoy what happens around the stadium before it goes, and enjoy Moana before Saturday rolls around.
- [56:51]
Mike McDonald
Yeah, you know, I'll be at a baby shower the day before the day of the game. Like one o'.
- [56:57]
Vic Tafur
Clock.
- [56:57]
Mike McDonald
Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm trying to text my friend now. Like, I know the dad really well. I'm like, hey, man, can we, can we get the Bills game, like, on at the baby shower? Like, what's going on here?
- [57:06]
Chad Graff
You know what's gonna happen?
- [57:08]
James Palmer
You're gonna get asked a thousand questions at that baby shower about the game that night by every dad that is at that.
- [57:14]
Mike McDonald
You know what happened? Actually, last week I had, I got dragged to. That's how, you know I'm a parent. I got dragged to a four year old's birthday party last Saturday night and I was like, hey, can we get the packers game on in, in here? And thankfully, you know, the dad played in the NFL for a little bit, so he was like, that's fine, let's do this. So. But yes, it was the same thing. It was like, mike, who do we play if this person. If the Bears win, what happens? If the packers win, what happens? Can we beat them? What if the four. It was just all these questions for traffic. I love it, though, that you can feel the buzz in the city. And those are some examples of it.
- [57:44]
James Palmer
Oh, that's awesome, man. Enjoy it, enjoy it. Hopefully it keeps rolling there. All right, moving on for our Thursday road trip on Scoop City, the other side of this matchup. And the 49ers. Vic Tafer joins. Vic, before we get to this matchup, you do have to take me inside that locker room at Lincoln Financial Field. I mean, this was a. I, I don't know if I want to say a miracle. I think that's what Silver used. But, but, but an unbelievable upset. You lose Kittle, you got the tequila. Take me in that room. And what that experience was like.
- [58:17]
Vic Tafur
Yeah. As the game was going on, you Know, the Eagles kept letting him hang around. You keep wondering, are they going to actually, you know, blow this? And the fans, you can sense the fans are, you know, having a good time. It's a playoff game, they're loud, but you can sense the, the dread coming to, like, are we actually going to blow this? And it kind of just this, this weird feeling over the whole place. And when they scored, the place got really quiet and the locker room clearly was just a, you know, a celebration. Just people. I will say this, it wasn't much surprise. I wouldn't say they, like the Niners were shocked. They pulled it off, definitely. It's a veteran bunch, very confident even. They lost Kittle, they've lost, you know, Fred Warren and Nick Bosa, all these injuries all year long, but still a resolve and kind of a confidence that these rookies have learned quickly and kind of, it's, you know, they kind of believe they, it's not a big deal, that they just win games and on to the next.
- [59:02]
James Palmer
Yeah, they are battle tested. That's probably a term that's only used in sports. I don't say it very often in my personal life, but that's essentially what they are. They're, they're pretty battle tested in a sense. Here's an impossible question for you, Vic. Better coaching job this year. Kyle Shanahan, Robert Sala.
- [59:19]
Vic Tafur
That's a good question. I'd probably go Shanahan because he's, he's kind of has the head coach, he has the whole room. He's got, you know, he obviously is focused on the offense, but clearly he's keeping these guys motivated, keeping them in believing and going forward. I think look at, you know, Mac Jones came in, a guy who wasn't really, you know, a coveted quarterback in the off season and took over for eight games and kind of big reason why they are where they are now as far as he won five of those games. And just the offense doesn't miss a beat. I mean, they keep having guys step up. Last week was demarcus Robinson, a guy we haven't heard much from all year long, making big plays. So there's a lot of confidence in Kyle as a play caller. He has confidence in guys that can step up who haven't been playing much and make plays. So it's just a great atmosphere. Everyone kind of is on board and there's a lot of belief in each other, both coaches and players. Yeah.
- [60:08]
James Palmer
And the linchpin to that, you could say it's. It's Brock Purdy, but For the course of the season, it's been Christian McCaffrey, right. And the way that they've used him in every way imaginable. I don't know if I've ever seen. You've seen a lot more football than me, Vic. I don't know if I've ever seen a better running back in terms of route running, catching the football. Many more or less. Just an offensive weapon. Fourth all time in postseason scrimmage yards per game at over 118 per game. Arthur. Different. Different ways still or different concepts that Kyle can create. Lean on to get Christian the ball against this Seahawks defense that is so good, that knows this team so well and knows he's getting the football.
- [60:48]
Vic Tafur
Yeah, he's definitely pulling out all the stops as far as in motion, where he puts him, you know, packages. And I think. I mean the play, the reverse pass, Juwan Jennings made, great pass, great call. But what a cat. I mean, no one's kind of. We're kind of looking. Yeah, we're looking past the catch a little bit. The guy makes sure over the head catch. And it's a running back, you know, just. We kind of take it for granted he's going to make these plays. But it's funny because you talk about all the injuries all year long and back in training camp, he was the guy. Everyone was worried about it. Oh, McCaffrey's not going to hold up. He's not going to now. Here he is. He started every game. He has 400 touches. He's getting stronger as the year goes on. So I just think if you look at this weekend, I think they have gave him the ball. Like if they give him 25, 30 touches, they have a good chance to pull us off.
- [61:30]
James Palmer
How about adding a compliment to him? You mentioned demarcus Robinson. I've talked to Stafford in the past about Robinson. I've talked to Mahomes in the past about Robinson. Like, hey, he has some ability to make some big plays for you. You've seen it with this group. But you see Trent Williams get back and play that game against Philly and that's massive. But then I think you and I have talked about Ricky Piersol. We're always kind of wondering he's still with all the games he's missed, I think he's played what Vic nine of 17 games and he's still like their leader as a deep threat in terms of yards and catch. Is he going to come back? Because I do think that changes this offense that is just starving for another option, another Target for a defense to worry about.
- [62:06]
Vic Tafur
Yesterday he said he's feeling better, his knees. Feeling fine was the word he used. He's optimistic he'll play this weekend, but he admits he won't be 100% like Trent Williams came back last week Probably, I'm guessing 75% of what he is. So I think Ricky's the same boat. Like he can come in, he can beat man to man coverage. You know, that helps him out a little bit, but he's not going to be making dynamic plays or kind of these great cuts. And I think it'll be a limited role for him, but still a guy who make defenses respect what he can do and gives Brock another option. So it'll definitely be a big comeback for the team this week if he came back.
- [62:38]
James Palmer
Yeah, for sure. All right, last one on the offense I have for you is there's people when all pro voting comes out, Victoria, they're always like, can we please lose the fullback position? Can we please just get rid of it? Right. But there is a man in that building that plays the fullback spot that does everything. And what he is using these different types of motions and you see him run one way and then come back the other and the ball is snapped and all the different ways they use Kyle Juszczyk, it's like he's vital to this offense. Even more so with the loss of Kittle and the loss, loss of, you know, so many other guys as parts of this offense. We've never seen Brandon Aiuk, like, how really vital is he? Not just on the field, give me that. But also like in how this team operates and has gotten through this season.
- [63:21]
Vic Tafur
Yeah, I think he's like. I think maybe part of it is he's more than a fullback. That war doesn't really do him justice. As far as you mentioned the roles he plays on the line of scrimmage, in motion, he's blocking guys, he's out. Last week when George went down, he had like four catches. I think last week it was kind of. He stepped up. So another guy who talked about their battle test, just a guy who's been here forever and just knows a big part of the culture, the winning culture. He definitely is good with young players and kind of example. He hasn't missed a game all year. Broke a rib, I think a month and a half ago and didn't miss the game. So just shows you the toughness that he has and just kind of a guy who, you know, he's there, he's reliable, like a lot of these veteran guys and they kind of know, hey, we're in there for the long haul and we'll get this done.
- [64:00]
James Palmer
Yeah, he's got, like, fingers that I'm not look the same again, but he's still out there, just dominating the way he is in terms of the health of these guys. We always focus on the Niners with that. You've seen Fred Warner on a football field. I mean, people didn't think they'd be seeing that or saying that right now if they beat the Philadelphia Eagles. What have you seen from Fred Warner and is there an actual chance he plays Vic?
- [64:23]
Vic Tafur
It's a unique thing where a team's, you know, round two of the playoffs and you're in there on a Wednesday and the key guy talking is a guy who's on, you know, ir, who. He's in the locker room talking to reporters. He's coming. It's a big deal. He's going to practice. Everyone's home, but there's a buzz. Players are buzzing, media's buzzing. And like, it's just a weird thing where a guy who may not play is such a huge, subtle, you know, figure. And look, I mean, it's no pads, but he's running around, he's jumping, he's obviously yelling. He's spirited. Guys are really fired up. So it was a nice thing to see. I. I don't know if he can play this week. I think the goal always was next week if they win. But he's going to try. He said, don't rule him out. Just take a day to day. We'll see today how he feels. But he's definitely. He's up for the challenge, Definitely wants to play. He, like I said, he was. He was flying around yesterday, and I don't know what that means as far as, you know, football stuff and putting pads on, taking a hit, but he's raring to go.
- [65:17]
James Palmer
That's encouraging, though. I mean, I mean, it might even give you juice to go. Like, guys, if we win, this type of player possibly back if we do win. Things didn't go great in week 18. It felt like there was a physicality that Seattle brought to the Niners. Oftentimes, we're not sure if that continues. You see these teams play again oftentimes in the league, and that doesn't play out the same way. Do you see this game playing out differently than the way it did in week 18?
- [65:46]
Vic Tafur
Yeah, I think it will. I think that game, the Seahawks came in a lot of confidence. They clearly felt we're the better team, we're the more physical team. We can push these guys around. And I think part of that was Trent Williams is not playing. He was out that game, so that's a huge factor. He's back in the mix now. And like that week they probably threw out, I want to say, like, you know, 50% of the playbook. Things they couldn't do without Trent. So those plays are back in. I think even though the CX came out and they were definitely, you know, fired up and had a good start. The final score was 13:3. I know people say it was misleading, but the Niners hung around. I mean, they definitely had chance to make plays in the end, as that interception at the very end, it kind of killed them. But they're in that game to the fourth quarter even though they were getting physically dominated during the first half of the game. So again, they're confident. They play this team twice, they've split, so they think they can run the ball this week and have a chance.
- [66:32]
James Palmer
Okay, real quick, 50% of the plays are out of the playbook. If Trent Williams isn't in, that's not normal for a left.
- [66:38]
Vic Tafur
I think that's better. 15%. 15.
- [66:40]
James Palmer
I was about to say, like, I know Trent's good and he's a first bout hall of Famer, but that's a limited playbook. 15. Okay, that's maybe I have small ears, Vic. It might have been that.
- [66:50]
Vic Tafur
Yeah, slow down a little bit and relax. And yeah. 15. 1 5.
- [66:55]
James Palmer
1 5. There we go. All right, prediction. You got, you got what needs to happen for the Niners to win this game before we go.
- [67:02]
Vic Tafur
Like I said, McCaffrey, 30 touches, need some turnovers and defense. I mean, Upton Stout, maybe he's played really well this year. I think me comes with a pick, but they need some big plays on both sides of the ball. I think Seattle is better. They're healthier, they're more rested, they're at home. So, you know, every week people count the Niners out and they win. I think they'll be close. I don't know if they pull it off, but they'll definitely be in the game in the fourth quarter.
- [67:27]
James Palmer
Awesome. They've just been so fun to watch, Vic. I bet it's been even better to cover. I'll be reading everything. Make sure everybody does too. On the athletic of what Vic's pumping out there, a lot of things he's putting out right now about George Kittle out, not just catching the football run game impact. Go check out everything kind of Vic's got going on. Appreciate it, man. All right, we've made our stops at both number one seeds. How about making a stop inside the building of each of the number two seeds? We're going to talk to Kevin Fishbane with the Bears and Chad Graft with the Patriots. Coming up next on Scoop City, thy ticket lady, Jennifer of Coolidge.
- [68:00]
Diana Rossini
Well, many thanks, good sir. Here is my Discover card.
- [68:06]
James Palmer
They accept Discover at Renaissance fairs.
- [68:08]
Diana Rossini
Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Geth with the times.
- [68:14]
James Palmer
With the times.
- [68:16]
Diana Rossini
You're playing the loot. Yeah. And it sounds pretty good, right?
- [68:21]
James Palmer
Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [68:28]
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- [69:20]
James Palmer
Welcome back to Scoop City. Our Thursday post season road trip continues. I'm James Palmer. Kevin Fishbane joins us and he has been on this show a ton because the band Bears have been on one hell of a run and it continues. I need you first to take me inside the city of Chicago. If I'm walking down the streets and it's, you know, I'm going in revolving door after revolving door. What am I witnessing here in Chicago as they are now in the divisional round?
- [69:44]
Kevin Fishbane
Kevin, it's a lot of go Bears, bear down. Everybody's wearing their navy in orange. I saw a picture of a CTA bus, the public bus in Chicago with the Go Bears on the front. There are few things like this city when this team is good. It's been a long time, obviously, since they got into the divisional round. And I mean, I've had friends reach out who aren't the biggest sports fans, aren't the biggest Bears fans being like, where should I go watch the game Sunday? Like, everybody wants to be with each other being a part of this thing. Because as you said it's been this kind of magical ride and everybody wants to see it keep going.
- [70:23]
James Palmer
Yeah, it's unbelievable. And the guy who leads all of it is Ben Johnson, who I remember in the early parts of the season, you and I were on here talking, Kevin. It's like we know he's this offensive mind. We've always heard this rumor he's behind the closed door and he's just a mad scientist figuring it out. But, man, have we learned a lot about Brian, about Ben Johnson's personality through the course of this year. How was it received with his latest comments after the f. The packers, all of that stuff, and he essentially doubles down. Did that make what kind of response in the city?
- [70:55]
Kevin Fishbane
I mean, I think the players love it. I think people in this city, for the most part, love it. There's always going to be, James, this like, little nervousness of like, oh, yeah, that was cool. But what's going to happen when we lose the packers in week four next year? And all of our friends from Wisconsin are throwing that in our faces? So I understand some trepidation, but, you know, rivalries are fun. And, you know, he's just, I think I've said this on the show before, and I say this in the most loving term. He's a maniac. He's just like, he is just so competitive and driven and I think the players take to it. You know, this city, James, this is type of city that's going to take to that kind of just grit, if you, you know, for lack of a better word, that he's exhibiting both publicly and behind closed doors with this team. And we'd be having different conversation at these, some of these coin flip games. Flip the other way, obviously, but even still, even if, even if they were 7 and 10, but they were like in all these games, you know, like, you just can see the foundation that he's built. Your. Actually, I went back and watched that video of his first day at Hallis hall this week when he walks in and they give him a round of applause in the front lobby and he addresses all these employees. And that was the moment I think everybody realized, like, oh, this isn't just some nerd in some lab concocting plays. As you said, we've all come to know, this guy is intense, he's energized, and he has found a way to rally this entire franchise to a place that has not been in a long time.
- [72:29]
James Palmer
I love it. Listen, Bears fans, I am part of one of the biggest rivalries in all of sports. I'M an Ohio State guy. Ohio State, Michigan. I don't care how much of a lunatic I am, because I get 364 days until the next game to be that. And then, yes, I could get shot down. But enjoy the time that you have before. As Kevin pointed out, Week four, when you play the packers or whatever it is next season. All right, let's get to this game and the X's and O's of it and what you're kind of looking for. The Bears run game had this stretch where we were just mesmerized by it, the success of it, the scheme of it, the way they use the two different sides of the offensive line. Now they're hit with an injury. Now we have a defensive line that is as talented as they come in terms of that group. With the, with the Rams, how do you see them running the football? And could they get back to that. That we've seen in. During that stretch in the middle of the year?
- [73:21]
Kevin Fishbane
Boy, they would love to. I mean, that had been their bread and butter, and it's going to be really tough. I think you saw the packers just. Their packers run fits were really good on Saturday night. Just every time it seemed like a linebacker just came free and made a stop for one yard or no gain. You know, one thing that we kind of like, it's a funny dynamic. James good. We lobbed the Bears off for starting all these games together. But then you remember these guys have started now 18 games. Four of the, or say three of the five starters have started 18 games, including two guys in Jonah Jackson and Drew Dahlman who have played great football. But, you know, they were hurt last year. They missed a lot of time last year. So it's just a lot of football. And I don't know if there's some wear and tear there. I don't think anybody here would admit that, of course, but, you know, the season goes on like it's. It's hard to live up to that, to stay at that level. But, you know, they're going to try. And I think one of the things about Ben Johnson is he's really good at designing the run game. And I'll take you back. There's some funny synergy here. The Bears have not won a Sunday Night football game since they beat the Rams in December of 2018. And it was a. It was just a very signature win for that team. And I remember that night. So much of the conversation was, how are the Bears going to contain Aaron Donald? And they had a really great plan that Night where they were doing these kind of. They just did a really good job with some window dressing and some draw plays and letting him fly up field and they'd hand the ball off to Jordan Howard and Tree Cohen and it was like a big part of.
- [75:01]
James Palmer
Listen to those names.
- [75:03]
Kevin Fishbane
Yeah. Remember, some guys, again, completely different teams, of course, throwing out that disclaimer. But I just was like, again, I've been thinking about that game a lot this week and it reminds me of like, I'm very interested to see some of the things Ben Johnson has cooked up to try to get this run game going against, as you said, maybe one of the best front fours in football.
- [75:24]
James Palmer
Yeah, you use some of that aggressiveness against them at times. I mean, we're focusing on what definitely going to do getting downhill against Josh Allen. Do the Bills use that against, you know, the speed that they have on the edges to kind of try some different things? You always love this cat and mouse aspect of it. If we look at as good as this front is for the Rams defense, I don't want to say it's a weakness, but they're obviously not as strong at the corner spot. We know all the different skill guys that Ben Johnson has at his disposal. When you're in the room this week, have you gotten a sense of that maybe the pass game is something we can lean on as a schematic advantage or a personnel advantage in this matchup?
- [76:03]
Kevin Fishbane
Well, they always feel like they have a personnel advantage with their skill players and who can blame them when you look at DJ Moore, Roma Dunes, what Colson Loveland has done in the past two months, Luther Burden to use another NFC west team, the San Francisco 49ers and the Bears play the 49ers run game was just okay and they knew they had an advantage against that secondary. Now the difference was 49ers and Rams vastly different in terms of rushing the passer. They knew they were going to have time against San Francisco and that was a game that Caleb Williams was maybe his best game all year. And they threw the ball a ton and they had a lot of success, a lot of explosive plays. So I think that I use that example to just remind everybody that Ben Johnson loves to. That's like kind of the word that we hear coaches and players use a lot. They want to be different every week. So to your point, they'll look at this as if we could give Caleb the time. We know our receivers are going to win these battles more likely than not. It's just giving him the time and Then him putting the ball on the money, which he's been better about over the last month. But obviously he was what, last in the league among qualified quarterbacks in accuracy. So, you know that could come up. If you got guys open, you can't miss them. It's the playoffs. But yeah, that's going to be a really fascinating just dynamic in terms of how Ben Johnson and Caleb Williams get that going. And you know, again it's that whole. It's the old Bill Belichick, right. Find the opponent's weakness and just game plan for that weakness.
- [77:29]
James Palmer
Yeah, great point. You mentioned Caleb there. I kind of wanted to touch. I didn't plan. I won't say I didn't plan on asking you about Caleb Williams, but it wasn't actually really hear my notes. But he's been unbelievable and you've been there for every step of the way. Tell me about Caleb Williams. Week one, if you're watching him on a football field to Caleb Williams, we'll see Sunday Night Football. The biggest difference in him is is. Is what in your eyes as you've seen every single snap.
- [77:55]
Kevin Fishbane
Well, he's so much more comfortable in this offense and I think if you look at some of the explosive plays that he has had, nine pass plays of 20 plus yards now, like really seven if you talk about air yards. But if we just go back to the nine, that's the most any Bears quarterback has had in a game this century and probably ever. The data only goes back to 2000. So I think that his comfort, like guys are probably getting open in Week one, but there's just a difference of he knows where they're going to be, he knows what the play is drawn up for and he feels so comfortable just letting it rip and hitting those guys. And the accuracy has improved, you know, late in the season. So I think that that comfortability has been. Because the thing is last year he did a really good job protecting the football too. Like that's been his hallmark. And the biggest thing this year is avoiding the sacks, obviously, but just, just feeling comfortable enough to let those throws rip I think think is probably the biggest difference between September and now into January.
- [78:58]
James Palmer
Okay, let's flip it over on the other side of the ball. We know turnovers are a big part of what Chicago does. You're facing what many people believe is the MVP and the way that they use heavy personnel, the way that they. I think it's awesome the way they use their tight ends and Puka Nakua actually in their run game to help get to that next level and aid in a run game that a lot of of people, if you ask around, really, really kind of love watching. Kind of similar to when you see the Bears run game, really, really working. What part of this Rams offense you think is the most concerning or doesn't match up as well as you'd like against this, this Bears defense?
- [79:37]
Kevin Fishbane
Nothing's a good matchup for the Bears when the Rams have the ball. I don't, I don't think anything is because even if you want to sit there and like poke some holes in the Rams offensive line, like the Bears haven't rushed a passer consistently all season. So I think they have Puka. I mean the way you hear them talk about Stafford and Puka, like it is clear that they, they know, like that is, that's where you know the Rams can just kill you. And I think though that the Kyron Williams to the run game situation, like the Bears are at their best when Dennis Allen can cook, when he can come up with some third and seven look that even a Matthew Stafford might struggle with. And if you can't stop Kyron Williams on first and second down, you're never going to get allowed Dennis Allen to give you those looks on third and seven, third and eight, third and nine. So I think that that's the thing. Like early in that game last week, Josh Jacobs was just getting 5, 6, 7 every touch. Second half, 1 yard, no yards, lost a yard. That changed the game. The Bears ramped up the run defense. They forced Green Bay into all these third and, you know, not so manageables, and they took advantage. So I think to me, like, it's not even worth like saying like, oh, they can do this to Stafford, they could do this to Canuka. There's nothing they could do to those guys, really. So, like the best thing they have to hope for is can they just force Stafford into as many uncomfortable situations and he's only going to be uncomfortable, I think if it's third and long and even then you don't know because he gets the ball out so quick, he doesn't get sacked. So it's a brutal matchup for a defense that just gives up so many yards and really relies on the takeaways. But I do think that they did a lot of nice things in the second half that they can hopefully build on. But this could be a game where they're both in the high 20s, low 30s.
- [81:32]
James Palmer
Okay, I see that. I see that. It's awesome you said that about Dennis Allen, like maybe give him Like, I love that you have this. Maybe give Matthew Stafford something he hasn't seen. Because if you, if you heard Stafford after that game last week against the Panthers, you're like, hey, the Panthers did this, and they've never done that before. And he was like, there's really nothing in this league I haven't seen. So I think I've seen it all. And, you know, he's not saying it in an arrogant way. He has seen pretty much everything out there. Enjoy the atmosphere, Kevin. Enjoy Soldier Field, the city until that game kicks off. And it's just. It's just been a great ride to watch, but it just seems like it's just kind of getting going. And when we see what 26 is going to be like, Bears fans, don't be nervous. It's going to be okay. Enjoy this. Enjoy it.
- [82:15]
Kevin Fishbane
Thanks, James. It's been fun.
- [82:19]
James Palmer
All right, moving on with our Thursday road trip, good buddy Chad Graf joins us covering the Patriots. Bradley brilliantly for the Athletic, and he has this one against the Houston Texans coming to town. And I think we saw what happened with Aaron Rodgers, Chad. And this is the number one question everybody's asking. How does that offensive line, how does Drake May handle this pass rush that comes from the Houston Texans? They don't do a whole lot of things exotically. They don't blitz a ton. Everybody blitzes, but they don't really do it very often. They just bring that four and they come after you. Like, what do you think Mike frable and Josh McDaniel are looking at going, how do we keep Drake May upright?
- [82:58]
Chad Graff
Well, what's amazing about this is it feels so rarely. You're going into a playoff game thinking, hey, if this one matchup goes drastically either way, ball game, like if Daniel Hunter and Will Anderson ruin the lives of Morgan Moses and Will Campbell, like, hey, go enjoy Denver. You're going to have a lot of fun in that AFC Championship game or hosting the Bills or whatever, whatever. But if they can, and Will Anderson is so good. And Danielle Hunter, like, when Danielle Hunter is your second best pass rusher, what are we talking about? Like, that's insane. And so if they get, they're going to get theirs. But if the Patriots can limit that a little bit and when they do get home, not have the catastrophes, which for the most part, Drake's been good. Drake has been good about limiting those bad decisions, limiting the fumbles. However, interestingly, it did prop up a bit last week against the Chargers. They had some fumble luck where when Khalil Mack and Others on the Chargers just got home. It didn't impact things because they just scooped up the ball. But that happens again like you're living a dangerous life. So there's a lot else to this game. I don't think that the Patriots are overly concerned about the Texans offense. I don't think they're overly concerned about a lot of other aspects. But oh my God, if you don't stop Will Anderson and no Hunter, like, good night.
- [84:07]
James Palmer
Yeah, it ain't. What I'm fascinated about is we saw Will Anderson slide over, which he doesn't do very often to that that right defensive end spot against the Steelers, which would mean if he does that for a number of snaps going against Will Campbell over there, right at that left tackle spot and that speed to power that that Will Anderson has is just. Are we going to be talking about arm length a lot in if things don't go well in New England? If that doesn't happen?
- [84:37]
Chad Graff
Unfortunately for Will Campbell, fair or not, anytime he's struggles arm length is the conversation. Now for a little bit of background. Those two aren't familiar with each other. They grew up in the south going up against each other. Lsu, Alabama, they've had some big time matchups before. So I'm curious to see what d' amigo Ryan's does in terms of where he's lining up his two awesome defensive ends now. Drake May's first start in what he described as something that feels like 10 years ago was just last season. Midway through, they'd make the change of quarterback Kobe Brissette out, Drake May in and it was against the Houston Texans. Drake called that earlier this offseason his welcome to the NFL moment when Daniel Hunter flies around the edge. And granted the offensive line was terrible last year, but to know how their flies around the edge smokes Drake, Drake fumbles. And that was a moment that Drake said was like, okay, now I get it. Now I see what NFL speed looks like. Now I feel what it's like to get hit by these guys. I get it now. So Drake has come so, so, so far since then, but it's a little reminder of like, hey man, you cannot hold the ball against these guys.
- [85:42]
James Palmer
Yeah, that's, that's, that's a number one. When we look at the other side of the ball. Give me the latest on Christian Gonzalez because I mean we know he's one of the best corners in football. It doesn't look. And remember they played Monday night. The Texans with Nico Collins and their star number one wide receiver is there an advantage, you think if it's. If Nico Collins doesn't play and Christian Gonzalez does play for that secondary against a group that still is pretty good. Christian Kirk at a career high in that, in that game against the Steelers. Do you think that shifts things dramatically for. For a Patriots defense?
- [86:17]
Chad Graff
I, I do think that changes things quite a bit. And at first, you know, they both go into the concussion protocol. Obviously, The Patriots played 24 hours before the Texans, as you mentioned, and when that happens, I was thinking, okay, this is, you know, it's fair, I guess. They're losing their top number one wide receiver. This team's losing their number one cornerback. Both awesome players, but it is looking like Christian Gonzalez is going to play now. It's hard to speculate too much with these head injuries. Things can change. But he was a limited participant at Wednesday's practice, which is a step in the right direction. I think it indicates that he's in stage four of the concussion protocol. So he's not too far removed from being fully cleared to play and has not had a concussion earlier this season, unlike Collins, which I think helps his case. So that's a huge, huge advantage because while this Patriot Stevens is a little bit susceptible against the run while their pass rush is just okay, their secondary has been awesome. Like, they are at the top of the league in terms of EPA per play against the past. They will cover players very well. Carlton Davis on the other side of Christian Gonzalez allows them play that to play a lot of Mandy's defense. Marcus Jones is maybe a Pro Bowler, like borderline all Pro in the slot this season, not just a punt returner. And then they've got the. The two safeties, Hawkins and Woodson on the back end that just cover up for the rest. So very good secondary for the Patriots. And if Collins doesn't play like, I think that's a massive advantage for the Pats.
- [87:37]
James Palmer
I really do. Like I mentioned that career high from Christian Kirk. He goes for 1:44 off of eight catches in that game. He's not Nico Collins. I like Jaden Hannah Higgins a lot, the Texans. When I talk to people down there, Chad really, really like Higgins. He could be the one that kind of slides in in the place of Nico Collins. They think he could have a breakout in some senses. Some people loved him through the draft. He's had a really good showing in a lot of the times that they are trying to feature him at times in practice to see if they can do it, I'm told. But we'll just see. He's not Nico Collins. And I wanted to mention this just so everybody knows. C.J. stroud with Nico on the field, 65% completion percentage with a 97.5 quarterback rating. Without him, a 60% completion percentage and his pass rating drops to an 86. 3 and he gets sacked almost about a rate on full for one more than the other. You mentioned the run game. I want to talk about the Patriots run game and like what has happened to Ramon Dre Stevenson over these last several weeks? Like take us inside the building. What has changed with him as a running back over these last several weeks? Because he's been outstanding.
- [88:39]
Chad Graff
So two things have changed and this is a fascinating discussion that I don't think we've talked enough about. One is stylistically, the Patriots have changed. They had one of the worst running offenses in all of the NFL through the first 12 weeks of the season. Could not get anything going. So the bye week arrives. They have a late buy. This is a chance for Josh McDaniels and his staff, Mike Vrabel and those guys to sit down and think, what are we doing wrong? Drake is having an MVP season. How can we not run the ball? What they come out with is a plan to use a lot more big personnel. And I think you'll probably see this against the Texans, a team that loves to live in nickel defense. The Patriots are going to use six offensive linemen or 22 personnel to force you into your base defense. They love to pass out of that, especially with the play action. But that sixth offensive line, really offensive lineman that they use so often, really freed up a lot of schemes. And what Josh McDaniels is trying to do with the running game, it's a of lot allowed them to be so much better. And then the other part of it is Treveon Henderson, we've seen his breakout over the second half and the explosiveness that he provides. But Rajr Stevenson had fumbling woes at the start of the season on top of fumbling woes the previous year and the year before that. And so that was, I think, a tipping point where things really could have changed and he could have gone in the tank and it could have gone south. But as we've seen all season with the Patriots, every lever that Mike Vrabel is pulling is working out perfect for them. And so in those hard times we five week six he came out and said, I'm not benching this guy. Like people like me were like, you have to bench him. You drafted Trayvon Henderson, like, sit this guy. He keeps Fumbling. He didn't do that. He came out and said, I'm sticking with him. I'm riding with this guy. I trust him. And I think that confidence has gone a long way for Ramon Dre. Like he was a high profile recruit. He played at Oklahoma. You don't just suddenly learn how to hold on to the ball in like year seven of the NFL. So I think a lot of it was upstairs and Mike Able, just giving him that confidence boost, I think went a long way for him.
- [90:30]
James Palmer
Yeah, that's big. And we talk about these pass rushers so much. That's why I want to see if the Patriots can run the ball because yes, Daniel hunter, will Anderson Jr. Check get a ton of credit. Those that rotation in the middle for this Texans defense is very good. And Autry and Rankins and Tommy T, like that group does a better job than maybe a lot of people understand because of the way they're at. And I love that you mentioned the sixth offensive lineman because what does Houston usually do? Right. They put you in a bind because you have to keep a back or a tight end to even chip when they rush forward. That's how good they are and they love to change the numbers. So with that said, last one I have for you is if you're Drake May and Josh McDaniel are going through this entire week, are you more concerned with the pass rush or the way this secondary plays with with guys that just fly all over the field from Lassiter to Stingley to Bullock who's outstanding and nobody talks about him, to Petrie, one of the best guys in the middle of the field. Man, it's wild when you mention all their names and how good they are. What's the bigger concern you think in that offensive meeting room just to pause.
- [91:28]
Chad Graff
There, it is absolutely insane that they have all of those guys are this good in pass defense and it feels like nobody talks about them. And I guess like Daniel Hunter and Will Anderson, like that's going to take the attention. When did you know Hunter Hunters maybe the freakiest athlete I've ever seen. Like when you would watch him coming off of a field at training camp. He looks like a superhero on a field of like top 1.1, 0.1 percentile athletes. He stands out as different from everybody. And so that's a long way of saying I think you got to be more worried about the pass rush. The secondary, awesome. What they have back there is incredible. But especially for a Patriots offensive line that is coming off of some struggles against Colomack and The Chargers. Will Campbell, I think a really good positive rookie season for him, but he suffered a late season injury, went on IR when he came back. It just hasn't, I think, been totally the same since that knee injury, which was a pretty serious knee injury. Missed four games. And so to come back from that and be like, all right, well, first guy up is Will Campbell. Oh, you passed that test. Great. Here's Danil Hunter and Will Anderson. So I think that's the spot you got to be a little concerned with on the right side. Morgan Moses. They're right tackle. People know him. He's been around 34 years old. He's been better than I think just about anybody expected as a 34 year old. But this is a different challenge.
- [92:49]
James Palmer
Yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. It's always, you know, it's always who gets to the ball first, who gets to the ball quickest and how that works. But, man, that secondary turns the ball over. They're so sticky in coverage. They help that group up front so much. It's. It's going to be a tall task. And I think it's what we all want to see Drake make go against. Right. Like, I think it's just fans we all want to see Drake may do it and you'll watch it in person. Chad, enjoy the game. Thanks for stopping by and say hello to the rest of the Beat for me. Wonderful folk.
- [93:16]
Chad Graff
Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it.
- [93:18]
James Palmer
See you, man. Just an unbelievable packed show for everybody stuck with us all the way to the end. Thank you so much. Thank you to Diana Rossini, our senior NFL insider here at the Athletic, giving us all the great nuggets about John Harbaugh. She'll be with us regularly as we continue to go through this coaching carousel and all of our unbelievable beat reporters here at the Athletic, a group that is unmatched in this industry. Thank you guys for joining us and make sure you check us out on Monday when we're going to be breaking down everything that transpired this weekend in the divisional round as we get ready for the championship round. Who's moving forward? Why are they moving forward? What we need to see. It's all Monday. Enjoy your weekend of divisional football.
- [94:02]
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- [95:06]
James Palmer
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