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Scottish Watches Podcast #737 : Chrimbo Chat With Roger W Smith, Ed from Moser and Ben from Norqain
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Scottish Watches Podcast. This is a bit of a bumper episode, a cavalcade for the festive period. We've got three interviews we recorded recently across the globe over in Dubai with three extraordinary gentlemen. And we're not going to waffle about too much. We're not even going to. Well, we'll do a wrist check maybe in the middle point, but we're going to get straight into things and talk to. Who are we going to talk to, Dave?
- [00:18]
B
Well, who we're going to talk to first is someone that's no stranger to the show, that being Eduard Malan from Moser. They introduced an all new model over at Dubai Watch Week and we got to see it. In fact, Ricky, I believe the day before it was actually officially launched and it was somewhat cooler than when they officially launched it.
- [00:34]
A
Indeed. So with no further ado, let's get cracking. Let's chat to Ed and see what's new.
- [00:39]
C
Well, what we're going to ask him about is, of course we are here at Dubai Watch Week and, well, as is tradition, there is probably a release that has been brought out to talk about at Dubai Watch Week. And both myself and Ricky, one of the favorite watches within the Ranger Moser is the Streamliner. And I think you might have something that's quite nice that you've released. You.
- [00:59]
D
Yeah, I'm listening to you because I'm, I'm. With this noise, I'm not sure I understand everything. So, yeah, I have a pretty cool watch on my wrist. Is that your question?
- [01:06]
C
You are very intuitive and naughty. Naughty. Depends how you say naughty. But yes, you have a. It's good.
- [01:13]
D
You were the first one to talk about the, the streamliner.
- [01:15]
E
No.
- [01:15]
D
Was it with you guys? I think we were the first podcast in January 2020.
- [01:19]
A
Yeah.
- [01:20]
D
You remember that?
- [01:21]
A
Yeah.
- [01:22]
F
His memory work.
- [01:23]
D
I was like, who are those guys inviting me? That's fun. But yes, today, back to streamliner. We're launching this beautiful streamliner streamliner. Perpetual Moon. It's not Perpetual Calendar. Perpetual Moon. There's a precision of one deviation of one day in 10, 27 years. And here we have a beautiful rose gold meteorite dial. So it's a treatment of a meteorite dial in 40 millimeter. And it's the first time we do it in automatic. The Perpetual Moon has been at Moser for quite some time now, pretty much same time as the perpetual calendar. So 2005, 2006. But it's the first time we do it automatic.
- [01:54]
C
And I think it's also the first time it's Been in a streamliner.
- [01:56]
D
The perpetual moon is the first time it's in the streamliner in the city.
- [02:00]
C
It's a double first.
- [02:01]
D
It's a big first. Yeah.
- [02:02]
C
Tell me, this watch, it's a gold treatment, I assume, on the meteorite to give it that aesthetic.
- [02:08]
D
That is correct. So we have a meteorite from Namibia is cut and then treated with to get the crystals out so you get the structure coming out. And then we made a gold treatment. To be honest, about three, four weeks ago, we actually tease people during Geneva watch days where we showed it, it was with a silver dial. And then when we made the first video, we played with like a pretty warm light and I saw this reflection which made the dial gold. And I was like, nah, we have to do it this way. It's so beautiful. And then the team was like, oh, my God. So we had about 25, 30 iterations of dials for this to match the gold hands that we already had, the gold moon, but the dial being silver, which was good, is we could use the dials that we already had and make that treatment. But we had to recreate all the pictures, all the videos in the last few weeks. But to be honest, I think the result is way better. I love the contrast between the rose gold and the bracelet and the case in steel, but also the way it's very homogeneous between the hands polished, the moon sunblasted, and then the structure of the meteorite.
- [03:10]
F
Well, did you say a homogeneous?
- [03:11]
C
I did. And actually that plays into the fact that of course meteorite is non homogeneous. And is it interesting the pattern you've managed to bring out is not in terms of the usual pattern that you would see, which is usually quite strong. This is a much more subtle pattern within the meteorite.
- [03:28]
D
Yeah, it depends really on the meteorites. Here is a meteorite from Namibia called the Gibion. And yeah, we always like Atmosur to be rather minimalistic and I feel it plays well with. Here's where we are. It's not like a screaming meteorite, but obviously if you play with the light, you see the structure, except if you're too old for it.
- [03:46]
C
But I need my glasses.
- [03:48]
D
Yeah.
- [03:48]
C
Yes, that's what I meant.
- [03:49]
F
It looks nice. Dave, though.
- [03:50]
D
What?
- [03:50]
F
He looks nice.
- [03:51]
C
Good. The other thing I was actually going to say was you're well known for either having the very subtle logo or of course, the logo in white. But in this one, if my eyes do not deceive me, there is no logo at all.
- [04:01]
D
No. So when we do a concept, meaning there's no indexes, there's no logo. When we have indexes, we usually tend to put a transparent logo if it's not an enamel dialogue technique.
- [04:10]
C
So it is if you know a.
- [04:12]
D
Lot of rules, with a few exceptions.
- [04:13]
C
So it's. It's a rule until it's not a rule.
- [04:15]
D
Yes, yes.
- [04:17]
C
But of course, this being, I would say, an almost iconic design shape within the watch industry now is unmistakably Moser.
- [04:24]
D
Yes, I hope so. I mean, we. That's the objective every time, is to create something that people recognize as being Moser and the same time trying to be as much as possible of a timeless design. And I think here we have something that is. That could be part of our collection quite a long time. We have a few watches where we say, okay, this is for 12 months or 24 months. And there's a few like the Vantablack or the small second enameled, or a few where we say this. We don't know how to change it to make it even better or like to play with the trend. So this is typically a watch where I feel like we're not going to make many, but we might make them for a long time.
- [04:58]
C
So this is the subtle release every year of a few pieces from those special customers that manage to get one.
- [05:03]
D
Yeah, more than a few. I mean, we still want to make at least 50 or 100 a year, so it's not like a handful. But, you know, we have 80 points of sales around the world. They all will want to have more than one.
- [05:13]
C
So you need to feed the machine to feed them.
- [05:16]
D
But yeah.
- [05:17]
F
So can I change gears a little bit and talk about a press conference that you did online with a rather famous F1 driver? Something to do with you guys and your sponsorship F1 over the last. Well, you're us now. Yeah, that was a very unique experience to sit in with somebody who is a brand ambassador, F1 driver, friend of the brand, but someone who was actually involved in the design process, came across the Schaffhausen was instrumental, not just ticking boxes. How did that come about? Is that the best collaboration that you have, you guys have done with somebody like that? How involved was he really behind the scenes?
- [05:51]
D
So we haven't done that many collaborations where we play, we work with Ambassador because know we didn't have him back.
- [05:57]
F
So that was new then.
- [05:58]
D
That was new. It was. It was quite incredible because as I mentioned multiple times, he knew exactly what he wanted and he was extremely precise in his feedback. So he came once to the manufacturer, we sat Down. We set the rules. Well, we know first we met. We met in London at Silverstone. I said, let's. Should we. Do you want to do it? Do we do something together? And he was like, yeah, but you think people will buy. I said, if it's you and it's a good design, everybody will buy it. He said, okay. I said, what. What do you have in mind? He said, I want. I love chocolate. I want chocolate colors. I want. And he has one. I mean, be honest, he loves the aquanaut with the. With the brown. Said, well, you know, we. But he wanted, like, the Moser version. Like, you want the fume, he want the rose gold, he want Tourbillon. So completely different, but those kind of. He like this brown color. So we said, okay, let's start like that. And then, I'll be honest, we made a first set probably of five, six drawings. And the first one he saw is exactly like the watch that we have over there. And he loved it. He said that that's the one. I said, well, we have a few more, you know, said, no, I want this one. And then I said, I want to make sure. So I'm going to few do a few iterations. And we kept on throwing drawings at him and. And he loved it. Then, then the next step was really about creating the first dial because that's the only parameter. We still had to work on the color of the brown, but we knew more or less what he liked, so it was really about the dial. And the first dial he saw is. Were, like, amazing stuff. A pretty easy conversation. A lot of WhatsApp is a bit younger, so it's less WhatsApp. I think it's more Instagram or Snapchat, whatever. So not always responded within a few minutes like I would expect from certain people, but straightforward, straight to the point. Very enjoyable.
- [07:31]
A
Good.
- [07:32]
F
And given a bit of a helicopter view. A year plus involved with F1, is it the way you expected it? What were the things that worked out the way you thought they would? Are the things that surprised you?
- [07:42]
D
I think it's like any friendship or relationship. It's. It takes a little bit of time to warm up. There's a little bit of, you know, you're, I think, Formula one drivers. There's two things they care about is what they're going to wear as clothes and as watches. So they were quite excited to see, like, oh, it's a cool brand coming in. At that time, it was Esteban and Pierre, but still, you know, they're a little bit like, you Know, we are prior sport guys, but they want to keep a little bit the distance to see who we are and then warm up a little bit. So in the beginning, you know, you know, you don't want to be the guy that always comes to them and be like, hey, so there was a little bit of distance and then slowly becoming closer and opening on both sides. Also, him coming to our manufacturer, us going to the Grand Prix and meeting him, introducing to him to our guests. But I think with a lot of respect, like, not too intrusive, I think he realized that we knew where the barrier was to a point where we became much more like. I can show you the discussions we have. Last time I was in Singapore, we had dinner and say, hey, we're playing football with the friends tonight that you want to join. We went with my brother by soccer shoes, football shoes, and then ended up at one in the morning playing with Pierre with. With a few other football Formula one drivers with the teams until I don't know what time in the morning. Like, we were burned on the side because he was an artificial astral child. And it was fun. So it's like that. It's. I think you.
- [09:05]
C
You need.
- [09:06]
D
First, you need to find somebody who you. Who is truly passionate or at least understands what. What's. What it's all about. And then you need to build that relationship. And it can take a lot of time, and you need to be patient, because I think otherwise you create this very transactional relationship, which is definitely not Moser. And that's why I was always very against, like, those kind of partnerships. And still we started doing those things like that.
- [09:28]
C
So it sounds actually, in many ways, it's very much been like how you've having to build a relationship with your clients, because ultimately it's a very similar dynamic. They have to build trust in you and your brand and the people involved. So sounds like you probably didn't expect it to be like, maybe you expected it to be more transactional, but it's turned out more like client relationships than you expected.
- [09:48]
D
I think it's in many, in many ways, our clients, our ambassadors, and with Pierre is exactly the same, is he's the guy who shows that his watch is super proud. He's like, apparently he had discussions with Lando Norris, who was like, hey, you know, I love the Vantablack. And he was super proud to show it to him. And so, yeah, it becomes like, he comments on a lot of things. We launch, he's like, oh, I love this one. You know, do you Think I can get this one. And a little bit like some of our customers who eventually get so excited about every new release and trying to know a little bit in advance. So he's like, oh, what's coming? What's next?
- [10:21]
C
But I guess the thing we forget is, even though these people are famous, globally famous, they are, at the end of the day, just human beings, like all of us, and they get excited about the same things, and especially if.
- [10:30]
D
They like the sinks, you know, and that's. I mean, I'm not going to say I mentioned brands, but some of the guys, they like, you know, I have to wear that. That. That brand, but I have passion for other things sometimes. In another segment, what's nice here is I think we're at the moment quite a cool brand and it's quite fun to be. It's not the mainstream brand, but at the same time it's at a certain level and for the people who know, so for him and for them, it's kind of to be part of that story and behind the dynamics and the others noticing it, you know, it's not just like the same brand, like everybody, like, it's the high brand that everybod has. It's like the underdog. It's like the upcoming. And you're like kind of a precursor. I don't know if you say it.
- [11:10]
C
Yeah, precursor. Yeah. Yeah.
- [11:12]
D
And I think they appreciate that.
- [11:14]
F
And the actual full world of F1, is it what you expected it to be or have there been some surprises you thought? I never expected that at all.
- [11:22]
D
To be honest. What I was surprised in the experience is that is how much the clients don't care about the results. They care only about the experience. It's like being there, having certain access, going behind the scene. And what's great with Alpine is that they give us a lot of that, because maybe they're not first in the. By far, the first in the. In the. In the championship, but at the same time, that maybe gives us more access, because if you have, like, the biggest star and you're number one, then it's very difficult to get that and it's probably much more expensive. So I think this is an amazing opportunity. They are the underdogs in Formula one, and we are the underdogs in the watch industry and with the ambition to be more than the underdogs. But I think Alpine is the same. They want to be World Champion. It's going to take a while. I think they're going to have a much better year next year. And for Moser, we've seen, like, I think, amazing years behind us and amazing years in front of us.
- [12:12]
B
Absolutely.
- [12:13]
C
I think you would probably never describe yourself this way, but I would say Moser is one of the very few brands that do operate, and I would describe them as a true luxury brand. They are luxurious in that they are not common, they're not everywhere, but they bring something additional to the product, to the marketplace. And too many brands, in my opinion, are too transactional and too opportunistic.
- [12:34]
D
Well, it's a luxury. You can do that because at the end of the day, it's still a business. Right. So you need to grow, you need to make money, you need to be able to invest. But I think if you understand that and calculate right and put the right parameters, then you can do all of it. But I'll be honest, I mean, the first element that I need to think of and I hassle my team with is margin said, you know, we can do a few fun projects that, you know are there because of image and stuff like that, but we need to finance it, and the only way to finance it is by margin. So we need to be much more efficient and are constantly looking at efficiency. And we need to build a brand because brand allows you to put a premium on your. On your product. And that's the combination of the two that allows us to bring those experiences, invest in marketing, to build a new manufacturer, to invest millions into developments that we might see in five years. And some of them we might never see because we realize that the. It just doesn't work. But that's the only way we can do that. And, and that's why, at the end of the day, it's not very glamorous. But that's. That's the core of what we do, is to still generate money with that.
- [13:34]
C
I think sometimes people underestimate that. That is actually quite glamorous because it takes a huge amount of conviction and a huge amount of work to get there. And that in itself is, in my opinion, a sign of success.
- [13:44]
D
We've been very lucky because people understood what we were trying to do and appreciated this idea of being a little bit different, more mavericks. And that gave us a lot of freedom. And also maybe not excuses, I'd say a bit of leeway in the sense that we could do things that maybe bigger brands would have been destroyed or have been hesitant to do well, but if they had done it and they would have been criticized. Whereas Moser, yes, some people criticized it. At the same time, I think he developed A strong relationship and trust with other people. I said it many times now, but I can't remember who said it. Wonder if it's one of you. I wonder if it's you, David, but I think one day, one of, or maybe it's Ron. Another person in our community who came to me once and I took it as the, for me was like this revelation, like the biggest compliment I ever, ever received for, for Moser is somebody I presented a watch to. I can't remember if it was a Genesis or something else. And the person was in front of me and he said, listen, Edward, I really don't like this watch, but I love the fact that you did it. And for me that, that goes a long way in saying, like, you manage, you're not the product anymore, you're really a brand because you appreciate the philosophy, the values and the reasons why we do certain things. And certain things are off the field, sometimes are a little bit pushing the boundaries, some are provocative and you might not like them, but if you like the fact that we did it because you know that we will continue to push, we will continue to try to surprise people, to innovate, to do some research, then you understood what Moser is. And the fact that somebody could tell me that in so few words was really that moment where I said, wow, I think we have achieved something that I would have never known whether we could achieve it or not.
- [15:18]
C
And I think to countenance that a large brand within the watch industry at a panel earlier actually said we just can't do certain things because people will be upset. Which I think is to me personally would be a little soul destroying. But to your point there, yes, something that I do say myself, and I know Ricky says as well, and I've said it often, is I like it when brands make things that I don't like like because it means they're trying and it usually means that they'll also produce something that I'll really like. If there's not a love hate relationship with certain things, then you're not trying hard enough.
- [15:50]
F
But you know what I would love? And you might hate? Coffee, you might hate. We were promised two years ago almost to the day that Ed would come to Scotland to record a full podcast, not just a 15, 20 minute segment. Do you remember that?
- [16:03]
D
Did I say that?
- [16:03]
F
You said that. I remember you said that.
- [16:05]
D
Still waiting for the invitation.
- [16:06]
F
Hey, you've been invited every time we've met. You okay. Hey, we all can.
- [16:10]
D
I would love to though, but it has to be fishing season. Though.
- [16:13]
F
Efficiency. Right, okay.
- [16:15]
D
Fishing season.
- [16:16]
C
Fishing season.
- [16:17]
F
Efficiency.
- [16:19]
D
I like the way you think, though.
- [16:20]
G
Yeah.
- [16:20]
C
Yes, yeah, yeah. You make a job and he's efficiency department.
- [16:23]
F
At the end of this it could be fisting season, so we never know.
- [16:25]
C
So when does it. When does the Dodge department start in Moser?
- [16:29]
F
Well, we'll get something organized. We've got it almost recorded perfectly that he has admitted he's going to do it if we organise it properly. So maybe next summer you come across, we'll show you Loch Ness, the monster, all that good stuff.
- [16:40]
A
Stuff. It'll be great.
- [16:41]
F
Firstly, we'll let you get on because it is the end of the day, we're all tired. You've probably got other people you need to go and see and beat up because I haven't done their jobs properly. But we will leave you to it and we will catch you next time. All right?
- [16:50]
D
It's great pleasure in Scotland, so of.
- [16:52]
B
Course, always great to hear from Eduard at Moser. Now, we mentioned it was a bit cooler there. That was because of the temperature. The next day, as you probably heard on a previous recording, it was rather warm because it was outside in the morning and the sun was at almost full height. But then after that we went to record another little session with Ben Kufar at Norcain. And to say it was cool was an understatement because it kind of resembles something like a Moonbase or maybe even an igloo.
- [17:19]
A
Ricky, of course, Ben's not been on the show for a number of years, so we thought it was due an appearance. You know, there's lots to talk about. Norkane have been on the up and.
- [17:25]
F
Up for many years.
- [17:26]
A
We do try and cover as many releases as possible, but he's a busy guy. We have to catch him outside the toilet at Watches and Wonders to convince him to speak to us because he's so, so busy. But we did manage to capture around about 10, 15 minutes, just as a bit of an update to find out exactly what has been happen happening across there in Switzerland. So let's quickly jump across to Ben and find out what is what.
- [17:44]
E
Yeah. Hi, Ricky, thank you very much for coming by. Excited to see you guys. We just launched a Wild One meteorite which is obviously a special watch for us because we launched the wild one in 2022. So it's now been, time flies, over three years. It was in September 2022 and it's been a while that we haven't launched the Kennedy edition and we. We launched it with Kennedy in 2022. And now it's exciting to have another Kennessy launch. So it's the NN21, our three hand Kennessy manufacturer, calibre 70 hour power reserve. And then for first at Norqain, the meteorite dial. An iron meteorite dial from Sweden. So very excited. And last but not least, with our property material, the burgundy color, which is back. We haven't brought it. It was also a 222. It was a big success. We did one skeletonized edition, but this hasn't been anymore with the Kennedy movement. So I think all in all it was a launch. We were very excited about to bring it to Dubai and yeah, I hope you guys like it.
- [18:44]
F
Unfortunately, you stole Dave's thunder because he wanted to ask where on the planet you found the meteorite. But you answered that one already.
- [18:51]
C
Well, yes, well, you took the wind out my sails on that one. Obviously you've said it's from Sweden. The burgundy, you have used that color before. As you mentioned in the skeletonized one. Was there a debate about the color to use with the meteorite? And why, if there was a debate, did you go with the Burgundy?
- [19:05]
E
Yeah, there was definitely a debate because first of all, the Burgundy has always been successful for Norqain. So we really, we, we treasure it. We keep to. It's always a bit around on the table when we look at different designs. But it was been a moment now that it's never really felt right. It's a color that, as we know, was the Norteq. We didn't know where we would get when we started the development of our Burgundy. The initial idea was to go a bit more into the red. We ended up with this beautiful burgundy color. And it's also a bit, you know, the surprise. And I think now we're really excited here in Dubai, I think to launch it again. It just felt right, the colors with the dark gray, which is surprising, I think really works well. We really see it here that this Andracite color and the burgundy, they match really well. Gives it a really strong DNA and great character.
- [19:52]
C
Yeah, it's an interesting combination. It's one of those colors that if you think about it, probably doesn't work until it kind of does work. And I think the Burgundy here, it really is nice that you've not overdone it.
- [20:03]
B
It's a little subtle touch.
- [20:05]
C
But everything else is that gray or black undertones.
- [20:07]
E
Yeah. I think, you know, also in terms of the hands, we were really looking at, you know, do we go white loom, do we go even try and put Burgundy in. And at the end we really, we said, hey, this really the strength of. It's a loud mix. When you initially think of Burgundy and dark bay, like you said, we were also there asking ourselves if it would work. But we knew from the past that the light graded worked well. And that was a surprising launch at. Especially as one of the first four Wild One launches. I remember a lot of discussions with Jean Claude if we should really pull it off and bring it with burgundy and like gray. Jean Claude was like, hey, I love it, but is that really commercial? And I think that's what Norqaine is about. We don't do commercial. We do designs and also want to offer watches that are different. And I think that's really something that you see here. It's for somebody who loves something that is different.
- [20:54]
F
Do you want to explain what the technology is, the way it's put together? It's not a ceramic material, but yes.
- [20:59]
E
I mean, for. For those who maybe don't follow us that much, we have the. The Nortech material was launched in 2022 as a carbon fiber composite. Obviously that in itself is not the innovation. There is a lot of carbon and a lot of carbon fibers. What we managed to do at the time was because the Wild One is an ultra robust sports watch and has a shock absorbing system in it, we really wanted to have a material that didn't break, that was super light, but also that we could color. And that's when the problem started. Because when you're in forged carbon.
- [21:29]
G
Yeah.
- [21:29]
E
You lose the hardness of the. So one of my good friends, Pascal Burcar, who has the company Biwee at the time, he said, you know, we could try something that's never been done. We could dye it in the mass, which would mean that every single carbon fiber is actually colored. Right. And so it's the first, it was a world premiere to have a carbon fiber composite in the mass. So he was using which keeps it then ultra robust. And if you touch it, you can see that it's remaining a super hard material. We have customers who have been wearing the wild one now for several years, since 22. And I'm always happy to see one of those watches on the wrist because they still look great. And I think that's really the strength of our Norteq material. It's not a standard carbon fiber. It's really, really powerful, really, really a scratch resistant and over time still looks great on the wrist.
- [22:17]
A
Well, I've got a question.
- [22:18]
F
Well, it's more a statement really that I'm Unhappy with you because you do all these limited editions. By the time me and Dave record it and put the show out, they sell out. So Stan the Man, how quickly did that disappear?
- [22:29]
E
Yeah, that was cool. This is, this is a special edition. So we have 300 dials this year, so. Right, we will. But we are planning to do another 300 series next year with this dial. So it's more a special edition than a limited edition. The Stan the Man was, you know, Stan, it was insane. But also, I think I'm super happy for Stan. Obviously, I'm super happy for us and the team, but I'm even more happy for Stan because his career deserved that. In my opinion, it was a statement of collectors saying that they have huge respect for what Stan represents. First of all, in tennis, the way he has remained humble, hardworking and a challenger. And I've been with Stan, you know, I was lucky to be with him in New York. I've been with him in some other cities already. And everywhere people respect Stan for being a humble, good guy. And I think that's really why people bought that watch, because it's a strong statement. This finger move that he does, you know, to his head, it's, it means something. It's about being strong in life, accepting challenges. So I felt that it moved people's emotions. And when you move people's emotions, that's when you get good reactions.
- [23:34]
C
I think that is quite an important point because to do a product, especially a product that, let's be honest, isn't an inexpensive product and to sell out when it's based on someone does say a lot because we've seen plenty of companies and brands try to co brand things and it maybe doesn't work, but people buy into something. It says a lot about both the brand doing something and the person themselves.
- [23:55]
E
It was a mix. And I think we're also learning, you know, I think we also had products that failed where we tried to do a story and somehow you don't take off all the boxes. I think what it's about today, you need to really have a story that's, that's, that's a real story that moves people. But also in terms of. We had the, the packaging was fantastic. You know, that huge tennis ball out of crow. It's a detail, but it really showed the attention detail. We had the three plates with the three grandson titles, the tennis ball signed by Stan in the box. It's a real collector's piece. And in 30 years, somebody will say, hey, I bought that. Stan the Man Watch at the time. Also the tennis net strap which we developed with Pascal was the degrade, which is also a first out of his company. So it was really, I think overall a great watch and that's why it was good and I'm happy people supported it.
- [24:42]
F
Well, let's move things back across to home turf where we are from. Obviously in the uk, you've opened operations there. It's been massively successful from what we've seen. You've done things with soccer aid, you have got ex footballers involved and stuff. Do you want to give us a run through of what's been happening in the UK for the listeners?
- [24:59]
E
Yeah, we're very excited because obviously if there were no coronavirus in 2020 would have happened earlier. But with us, what happened is literally we came to the uk, then Covid started and it was like we stopped the mission, said we'll be back. And then it's also true that when we launched the Wild One, the first reaction, luckily for us, was so positive that we were like with existing retailers, it was like a thank you back from us to them to say, hey, you supported us through Covid and since the beginning, so we were not expanding at the rhythm we are today. And I think it just felt right. We found first of all the right moment, but we also found the right person with Martin Jenkins, our director in the uk, who I just had a great discussion with him. I told him, listen, it's in our blood. We're challenges. If we go to the uk, it's a super mature market with a great collector scene. We really need to do it the right way. I don't want to go to the UK and not give a good impression of our brand. And he presented to me a business plan within two weeks that he had thought about. He was already looking at the brand earlier and I really liked the plan. So that was the moment I said, okay, now it's time for us to enter the UK and we're really excited. We have some very nice stores now with our partners, Beaverbrooks, Fraserheart Langs, independent like James Porchon. So really, really excited.
- [26:22]
C
And out of interest, did that little inadvertent pause that Covid made us all take, did it make you change your view about how you wanted to roll it out, whether in the UK or other markets? Did it give you pause for change?
- [26:33]
E
I think it even changed the way I saw nor kind, to be honest. You know, and I said that before, I mean, when you start a watch brand from zero the way with a lot of passion luckily and a lot of energy. But the reality is it was super tough and it. And you know, we are building something from scratch. It hasn't been done that much, especially not in Switzerland. We're not. The micro brand scene is not big in our country. It's coming from other countries. So I think the situation was for me was clear. The challenge is huge. But also Covid helped me to realize that I had listened quite a lot to feedback in 2019 because you have to be. We were happy. We had a good first launch. But I was also feeling like. Some people say, yeah, but this could be a bit more like that. And. And for me was mainly the retail network. That was where I figured to make some deals I sometimes had to do something that maybe I wasn't initially planning to do. So that was my moment to say, okay, all in. We're going to go with the way I see it. And the Wild One was of course two years later, luckily was an all in product. It's true. But also I had a good feeling. People often asked me, did you doubt or were you. I was super nervous. You wouldn't be a good entrepreneur if you don't doubt or. But I also really believed in it. All the decisions I took during those two years until we launched the Watch were against financials and for the Wild One. And that meant I believed in it because eventually you would then start to panic, right? But I kept on saying no, now we've done this much, we have to do more. And at the end we ended up with those 13 toolings and an absolute nightmare. But it was worth it.
- [28:04]
F
Well, you mentioned earlier on a name that is synonymous with watchmaking in circles that we're obviously in today. Jean Claude. Jean Claude Bivert. He's moved on with his own brand, with his son. He is a legend in the industry. Genta Biver, similar idea. Is he still as involved day to day? Is he still the mentor that you were looking for over the past few years? Does he still gauge you as a good light?
- [28:27]
E
He's definitely still involved. Definitely. Not as much as during the Wild One because at the time GCP was also not yet launched in the market. So. Absolutely. Of course he's very busy together with Pierre. They're also building a brand. But yeah, we see each other about three to four times a year and he comes to our board meetings, which is great. So he's really that role of advisor to the board and it's just a great person for me to talk with. I look up to him in many ways because I now see behind Jean Claude Beaver. Also, I'm privileged because he gives me the moments where sometimes, you know, you think, hey, and he tells you a story of what he was through that maybe nobody knows. And it gives me a lot of energy because when I see that Jean Claude and I, you know, at the end, it's not so different. When you are building a brand and he was building several brands, that's the, the big difference. But those moments of going home, not being sure, doubting, he, he, he taught me to really embrace that moment. If you have that, don't think it's bad, really go into it until you solve it in your head, you say, I'm going to do it or not. So I think that's really what I learned from Jean Claude. And I will never, I, I mean, I will never forget what he did for me in 2020 when he wrote me that email because we didn't know each other. You know, I always get the question, do you really not know each other? I promise we did not know each other. He sent me an email and said, you are the young guys. I heard a lot of good things must be tough. If you ever feel like a coffee. That was his email. And to be here now, today, it's great.
- [29:50]
C
So very much. You're the kid that's gone to university and he's now the, the parent at home that, you know, you can call if you really have a problem.
- [29:57]
E
Yeah, yeah. The, you know, the cool thing is also I'm now sometimes telling him about social media because Joe knows so much stuff, but I think nor can we manage now, you know, also to build a brand that's in over 50 countries. So sometimes like, we also discuss, and he asks me once, hey, how did you, you know. So I think I will never be able to pay him back fully, not, not emotionally. I think I did. I think he knows how much I appreciate it, but, but not, not, not the way that I would like to. But I'm giving him a lot of small tips of things that work in digital that I've learned and of course, so every time somebody asks me which watch to buy, I, I push him to Jean Claude, if you have a, if you have a high budget, go, go see Jean Claude.
- [30:38]
C
It shouldn't be coming.
- [30:39]
E
Exactly, exactly.
- [30:41]
F
Well, I think we've come to our end. This has been phenomenal. It's been a couple of years since we last properly sat down. We do see each other occasionally, message back and forward, but to be enclosed in a little dome, nobody else can get access to you. It's just us. Thank you so much and we'll catch you again soon.
- [30:55]
E
Thank you very much for coming and I'm really excited. I hope we see you very soon again. Thank you and thanks for the support.
- [31:03]
B
Well, we're probably just over the halfway point at this time, so we should maybe just sneak in a little wrist check. I mean it is Christmas after all and we want it to be as near to normal show as possible. So I always come second. Ricky, for this pre Christmas festive episode, what have you got on the wrist?
- [31:17]
A
Don't you like my rather fetching outfit for the festive period? Yeah, I'm wearing a rather cool Father Christmas number and I'm going to do my wrist check. I'm going to bring it into view. Can anybody tell what it is yet? Probably not, but if I pull my sleeve down you can see I am wearing not a watch I got this.
- [31:34]
F
Year, but one of my favorite, my.
- [31:34]
A
Favorite watches of all time. It's my Ulysse Nardan Freak x Magma edition. It matches what I am wearing perfectly. Doesn't have any green in it, but it's got a lot of that red, especially with the aftermarket strap there. This is a watch that seems to a firm favorite with people on YouTube whenever I wear it. So I thought yes, I should wear this for the festive episodes, the ones at Christmas and New Year. If you want to find out more about it, check the show notes. They'll obviously be linked in your podcast player. But this is in my top three watches that I own probably of all time because it is fantastic. Always puts a smile on my face and it's the one that people look at and they say, what's that wee spinny bit? Now Dave, where you go on the wrist?
- [32:08]
B
Well, unlike me, who's going to be festively plump after eating probably too much food at Christmas, the watch I'm wearing is somewhat svelte compared to my waistline or what my waistline is going to be. And without further ado, the watch that I am wearing, but not actually wearing because it's not on my wrist is the Citizen one, which is named after the thickness of the movement which comes in at 1 millimeter, with the watch being, well, I think 1.89 millimeters in total thickness. In fact, the watch itself is in some respects slimmer than the actual leather bracelet that it's on. In this case, we've got it on a little custom number from Hermes because, well, why not? It is Christmas. It's Luxurious time of the year and we're treating ourselves. But it is an eco drive watch, solar powered. That dial on there, well, when you catch it in the right light, you can just about see through it. The solar cell is behind the dial and the sunlight gets into it. You've got these two tone faceted hands, absolutely no illumination on it whatsoever. But very, very wearable and much more durable than you would give it credit for. So that is what I am wearing, not wearing today.
- [33:16]
A
I love it on the leather bracelet instead of, you know, the metal strap that you might have on there. But yeah, enough of that. It's time for, I was going to say the main event, but we've had three fantastic players already on the field here, but that's a hat trick of great special guests. And the last one, Dave, who's it going to be?
- [33:31]
B
Well, it is the inimitable Roger Smith, who made his way over from the Isle of Man all the way over to Dubai, possibly one of the greatest living watchmakers. Someone produces a very small number of watches. In fact, he will reveal during the recording how many watches he actually has managed to get up to in a year's capacity. And it's still not a very big number.
- [33:51]
F
Roger, it's been a couple of years. How you been?
- [33:54]
G
Good. Really good. Thank you, Ricky.
- [33:55]
F
Thank you very much. That's the end of the show.
- [33:59]
C
That was sweet and to the point, concise. Maybe we should get a bit more detail. Just a soup song more. So, Roger, you've escaped from the island. Just about, actually, technically to another island.
- [34:09]
G
Yes, we are on one now, aren't we?
- [34:10]
C
We are technically on an island, although you wouldn't actually know it, but we are surrounded by water and the island we're on has been built up for. Well, this is the. I don't know what number edition this is, but this is the 2025 Dubai Watch Week. And Roger, of course, you're here with a stand in the main pavilion. What's your thoughts so far about Dubai Watch Week?
- [34:27]
G
So it's my first time here, actually. I'm really impressed, Very impressed. This is day five, I think, isn't it? Final day. Long days.
- [34:35]
C
We'll all agree to think it's day five.
- [34:36]
G
Yep, long days. But actually it's, for me, it's been really fascinating because I came here, you know, not with the idea of selling watches. That's not what it's about. It's about showing people the watches and there are very few of our watches in the world, less than 200, I think. For me, what has been really good is just to gain the reaction. People can handle the watches. People see what we're up to. And so for me, it's been, yeah, a really enjoyable period.
- [35:03]
C
And next year is, of course, a rather significant year from you and you say 200 watches in your career. What is the anniversary next year?
- [35:11]
G
It's our. There are a few anniversaries actually next year, so it's our 25th anniversary. So that's 25 years of Roger W Smith Ltd. But actually it's 40 years since I started on this sort of crazy journey. Yeah, it's been quite a roller coaster. So we go through a bit of a phase of reflection, really, and preparing, you know, for a few things next year. But as a consequence, we've sort of been working out how few watches we've actually made and I think we're up to about 186, 86 or 87. Next year we'll do our 200th.
- [35:41]
F
But is this the Ferrari style of saying we only made 400 of them and there's a thousand in the wild?
- [35:46]
G
No, not at all. No.
- [35:48]
C
There's probably less than he actually thinks there are.
- [35:50]
G
There could be. No, no. I mean, it's very small numbers and so we're going to be releasing that and sort of talking about that and I don't think people are aware of just how few pieces there are.
- [36:02]
F
Well, let's take things back a little bit. It was a couple, nearly two years ago to the day, December, a couple of years back, there you came to Glasgow. It was a Red bar event. We recorded up the Stairs. And the funny story is Rich from Studio Underdog was there. Nicholas from Fears, yourself, me and Dave. And Rich was a shy and retiring young gentleman. We tried to coax him in front of the camera, in front of the microphones. Oh, no, no, no, no. Timid as a mouse. Look at him go now. Well done, Rich.
- [36:26]
A
We love it.
- [36:27]
F
But today you're the star of the show. We're going to talk about you and what you've been up to in the last 24 months. Run us through, bring us up to speed.
- [36:33]
G
Yeah, I mean, it's been a busy year as ever. There's always a lot going on in the workshop. We now a team of 15, and it's actually. It's one of my proudest achievements. It just has been slowly incremental building that team of watchmakers. We have one of them here, Tom, today, and that's been really valuable for me because, you know, we've Got a natural watchmaker. Well, two watchmakers on the stand who can actually talk sensibly about the watches that we're making this year. Also, we've launched the. Well, just a couple of months ago, we launched the Series 6 wristwatch.
- [37:04]
F
Can you explain a bit about that then? In comparison to previous ones? What's new, what's revised?
- [37:09]
G
Sorry, just to take it back, in 2014, I created series four, which is a triple calendar complication watch, and that has this unique traveling date aperture which travels around the outside. And the idea of that was to sort of alleviate the date hand which sits across key pieces of information. So that was done. And then in the background, you know, I've sort of noticed that there's quite a lot of interest in that Series four and Traveling Date Aperture and other brands are now using this idea. And I think that's fabulous because, you know, it's sort of proof of concept in effect. So I wanted to, with the Series 6 is basically, I suppose, celebrate that. But also one of the key features of the six, apart from the traveling data, is this floating dial. And that's a consequence of the design and it really adds a real three dimensionality to the watch and helps me to sort of accentuate this, this sort of British, you know, approach to British watchmaking, which is all very, for me, three dimensional and strength and rigidity and so on. And so it's. Yeah, it's really brewed to be really. Yeah, for me, lovely watch.
- [38:11]
C
Oh, it's interesting you say that. I mean, obviously your aesthetic is very distinctive. It's very British, I think, in many ways, very traditional. But you said there that this floating dial was a consequence of the design, I assume, of the calibre.
- [38:24]
G
Yes.
- [38:24]
C
And is that something that's been within your kind of mindset, where the design of the watch ultimately is derived by the calibre? Or is it a bit of both?
- [38:34]
G
Well, it is a bit of both, really. You always start off with a dial. That's the most important feature of any watch. If that doesn't work, then the watch is kind of a failure in effect. And then once you're happy with the dial, the hands, the case, then you can, as I say, drill back into the mechanism and start to design the mechanism to provide that information onto the dial. But I was striving for this sort of real three dimensionality. So the depth, the depth, I love the depth. And for me that just creates, you know, adds to what we're doing.
- [39:06]
F
Can we take things back even further and talk about the creation of something that is now many years, many, many years in the making. That is the alliance of British watch and clock makers.
- [39:14]
G
Yeah.
- [39:15]
F
It's taken over the world. We keep having to remind people on the show, you can join if you stay in Dubai, you can join if you stay in Sydney, Australia. Although it's British in name, it's across the globe and we have, obviously British clock and watch fans globally. How have things been? What have been the highlights and what is to come next for the alliance?
- [39:32]
G
Yeah, I mean, it has. I think we're. We're just exiting our. Well, it's five years, half a decade.
- [39:38]
F
Wow.
- [39:38]
G
Yeah, yeah, the alliance. And it's been an incredible year. I think from the very outset, what we wanted to do was to shine a light and focus on British watchmaking. And the idea was never to focus on one or two brands or people or what have you. It's about bringing everyone together. Because I sort of noticed six, seven years ago when I was chatting to Mike France, that there were lots of, you know, quite a few British brands around, but we were all working separately from one another. And I thought. We sort of collectively thought, wouldn't it be great if we could bring these people together and talk about British watchmakers as a collective boot group, as a body, really.
- [40:13]
F
An industry.
- [40:13]
G
An industry, yeah. But also what I sort of envisaged was collectors of my watches also been interested in collecting British watches and you know, having, you know, people meeting up at an event like this and talking about British watches and the interesting things that are going on within that. And I think that's been achieved.
- [40:32]
F
I think so, too. And I mean, just. We're looking across from where we are in Roger's booth just now. We've got Bremont in front of us. Rich at Stewart Underdog, we mentioned just a minute ago, he's got an open workshop where you can design your own custom O1 series. And there are so many British people here. We've met listeners to the show that are local. We've met listeners and viewers who are actually local to this place itself.
- [40:52]
C
Absolutely. I mean, if you think back more than a few years ago, the chances of having multiple British brands showing at one of the most premium watch shows in the world was verging on unthinkable.
- [41:02]
G
Yeah.
- [41:03]
C
You know Roger Smith. Yes. You're in a lucky position of being at the very top of your game and you may well have been here, but we now are seeing more and more proliferation of British brands, from very, very accessible price points to very mainstream price points. To very much the top of the game. And it's something that's amazing to see. And I think the next outing of this event, there are bound to be more British brands.
- [41:22]
F
The British are taking over again.
- [41:23]
C
Quiet, quiet.
- [41:24]
F
We're not mention the war.
- [41:26]
C
Enough times passed since that Empire thing. We're okay?
- [41:28]
F
Yeah, yeah, we're good, we're good, we're good. Well, anything you want to sort of. If you were to cast your mind back half a decade with the alliance, what would you say are the key points where you've thought, we've done it, we've done something very strong here, We've moved the needle forward?
- [41:40]
G
Well, I think it's our recent Bellwether Report. So as you remember, when we started the alliance, we knew things were happening, but there was no documented briefing quantifiable. Exactly. So we did Bellwether Report. Report. We.
- [41:54]
F
What does that mean? Because people have asked me and I don't really know myself.
- [41:56]
G
So Bellwether Report is a study of the state of a sector of an industry and we employed KPMG to do it because we needed that sort of authority. And they did a survey. We identified the British brands that had joined us, we put questions together, KPMG added to that and then that was sent out to all of our trade members. And basically what came back in a nutshell is that then five years ago is a 125 million pound business. There were 500 employees. It also told us about where movements were being sourced, cases were being sourced and so on, and what sort of assembly procedures were going on in the uk. So if we leap forward to today, well, the industry, the sector has grown now it's a 206 million pound business.
- [42:47]
F
That's a jump.
- [42:48]
G
It is, yeah.
- [42:49]
F
Wow.
- [42:50]
C
Especially when you consider the market is in a slightly depressed state because of, well, global politics and all the other things that are out with the control of us day to day. But the fact that the British industry is growing, let's be honest, British and industry are not two phrases that are often heard in the last two years. You know, we're not a nation known for its industrious capabilities, but I think watches is an area where we are definitively growing.
- [43:12]
G
Yeah.
- [43:12]
C
And it appears to me that more brands are trying where sensible and practical to do more in the UK as well. It's not just about a job in the UK that buys things abroad. They're actively trying to industrialise where they can in the uk.
- [43:26]
G
Yeah, very much so. And actually the job side of it has been another great bonus, 500 jobs to. I think it's now 1500 or 1600 jobs now in the UK. And I think for me, watch and clock making, it's not just about people at the bed bench, it's about all those supporting skills and trades that are so vital to a growing industry.
- [43:45]
C
Yeah, And I think, you know, many people forget as well. You know, they think watches and they assume a watchmaker which is part of the team, of course, but there isn't.
- [43:53]
B
An industry to it.
- [43:54]
C
You know, people have professional jobs, accountancy or bookkeeping or management roles.
- [43:59]
F
Ay, ay, ay. Nowadays, video creators, social media people, influencers. There's a huge ecosystem ecosystem that revolves around it. So where do you see things perhaps going in the next five years? What are your hopes and dreams there?
- [44:11]
G
Yeah, I think what we want to do now, that we really are seeing growth with it, to sustain that growth. We're very conscious within the alliance that we want to focus in on education. That's a very important part of it. Without young people being encouraged, you know, you really don't have a future for watch and clock making in Britain. I mean, one of my other sort of roles is a trustee of George's Educational Trust. What we're actively doing there is sponsoring students. So sponsoring students who have hardship to enter into, let's say, British School of Watchmaking in Manchester, the WASTEP course or Birmingham City University course. And again, we're sort of really feeding into that and trying to make sure that there are watch and clockmakers for the future. Another interesting thing that came out of the alliance's study was the type of skills that are needed within the uk, you know, for people at the bench. So, for example, it's still a young developing sector and we still are reliant upon imported cases, dials and hands and movements and so on. And so there isn't really much point having super highly qualified people at this stage. But what we do need, and I think this has been evident from the number of companies that are now springing up, is people who know how to bring those movements, cases, dials, hands together and assemble them in the uk, case them up, waterproof them and make sure that they're to the standard that's required for the sector. And so we need to train people to do that lower level skill, but incredibly vital sort of role in this sort of growth of the sector.
- [45:48]
C
And I think it's interesting you say, you know, the education part of it, which is oft overlooked, let's be honest. I think that's One thing the Swiss did right is even in the hardest days of the quartz crisis, they maintained a level of education because they hoped one day to come back. And in the uk, building that, and of course also building for the future some of those much more specialist jobs that take much deeper training and education. Hopefully 10 years, 15 years down the line, they will be needed.
- [46:15]
G
Yeah, I think we sincerely hope so. And yet again, the hope is that eventually, you know, we do start, we begin to see the beginnings of something happening in terms of manufacture. I mean, we've got to be realistic about this. When we completely lost the industry, it's gone. Those skills, those core skills of how to take a raw piece of material through the tens of stages to a completed component have gone. We can buy the same equipment as you may see in Switzerland, Germany or Japan or wherever, but we lack that ip, that real skill. But I do hope that in years to come, you know, when the sector's built into a large enough, powerful enough sort of sector, there will be people sort of saying, well, you know, it's worth investing. You know, I could make cases for the British watchmaking sector and really start off, you know, at the low hanging fruit, as it were.
- [47:10]
F
Well, a little bit like you've got sellita eta le joupure. There's maybe five that I could think of, movement makers, you could have a case maker, two case makers, three in the uk there's already people that we know that make the straps at very high quality. You've got the guys that put together studio underdogs, put together the Bullcrofts. There are these key people. We're just missing a couple of specifics that could make things move forward. Well, there you go guys. If you're watching, if you're listening and you think you're up to the challenge, Roger is calling you out. So in the next five years we want to have you on the show to talk about the 10 Year Bellwether Report and see how things are going. We know you're a busy guy. We are here just before opening and it's about to get extremely loud. So any closing thoughts for people at home listening or watching?
- [47:52]
G
Well, I think, really, I mean, I think my experience here in Dubai watch week has been incredible. I've seen people flying in from all over the world and huge numbers of Brits as well. And I think the more people we can get here for two years time, the better. It's such a friendly, warm environment here and people can see and handle the watches and I think that's Quite distinctive when you sort of put it against other watch shows around the world.
- [48:18]
F
And the security aspect.
- [48:19]
G
Oh yeah, yeah.
- [48:20]
F
I mean, your watches, if you only make now 20 a year, there are hardly any of them in the world. You don't want somebody to run away and that is something that you don't have a concern with. Even in the hotels here, people are leaving millions and millions of pounds worth of watches because it's a safe place to be.
- [48:34]
G
Yeah.
- [48:34]
F
Anything you want to add, Dave, or we let this guy get on his way?
- [48:36]
C
No, just to say I thoroughly agree with everything you said. The other beautiful thing about this show is it happens at a time of year where it's a little miserable in the uk, weather wise. So if you want to escape in two years into the roundabout, the November time frame, then think about it, book early enough. It really is not expensive to get here either compared to many other places.
- [48:52]
B
And it's a week's holiday.
- [48:54]
F
Well, Roger, thank you so much. And we might be pay a small visit across the small amount of water from Scotland to where you stay next year because you've got a lot of anniversaries. I'm pretty sure you'll have a lot of parties that we'll want to be involved in, so we'll let you go on the way. Thank you so much. We'll catch you again soon.
- [49:07]
G
Thanks, guys. Much appreciated.
- [49:09]
A
And that brings us to the end of our pre Christmas episode. I'm trying to get my timings right because all this is recorded ahead of time and then it's edited and cajoled together, released in some format thanks to Miz and the team behind the scenes. Obviously Gav doing the video. I believe this one will come out in video. Don't know when, don't know where, but it will. So keep an eye on our Instagram.
- [49:27]
F
Follow us there.
- [49:27]
A
Otchwatches for our Christmas edition, we have got Pietro from limited edition because he's been here for as long as I can remember, well over half a decade, since we almost started. I believe it was the first year we started, maybe 2019. And he has been such a great supporter of everything that we've done across the ages. And he's celebrating 10 years. You know this, you've heard it in the show before. But we wanted to go back in time, we wanted to find out where it all began for him, why he decided to start out on his own, what the triumphs have been, the turmoils have been, how things have grown, the great years, the pandemic years, then the Reversion to the norm, not the crash. So he will be here on Thursday. So while your kids are doing whatever it is kids do these days with the Christmas tree, the presents underneath, you can be listening with your noise cancelling headphones to Pietro, chatting about the limited edition 10 years young and what they've got planned for the future. And there's a special gift. Yes, there's a special gift that you can get your hands on if you listen to the show in its entirety, because spread throughout like good ingredients and a Christmas pudding, there will be little nuggets that you want to note and then at the end you'll want to get in touch because you could end up with not a Christmas present, but a New Year's present. Definitely worth listening out to, even if it is just for that free gift. Dave, anything else you want to say?
- [50:35]
B
No, all we have to say is, of course, well, we're coming towards the end of the year and it's great that everyone's tuned in throughout the year. We will have a blockbuster episode towards.
- [50:43]
C
The very end of the year where.
- [50:45]
B
We will look back at all of the madness that went on during 2025 and maybe even a little sneak peek as to what is ahead in 20. As always, if you do want to get in contact, please don't send us a DM on Instagram. We will not see it. It's hidden in all the junk.
- [51:00]
A
And we definitely don't want to look through Dave's junk. Not this time of year.
- [51:03]
B
No. Infocottishwatches.co.uk Then we are very likely to see it. If you say something interesting, exciting or revolutionary, we will probably read it out at some podcast in the future at some time. And other than that, all I have to say is I hope you have a great Christmas in the coming days. If you're listening to this as it launches and if you're watching this on YouTube, Christmas will have been a few days prior to to when you're watching this, I hope you have a great festive period.
- [51:27]
A
So, yeah, tune in on Thursday for Pietro, tune in next Monday for three more fantastic guests that we recorded over in Dubai. But we'll not tell you who that is. You're just gonna have to listen out for it. But anyway, thanks for listening, thanks for watching, have a great festive period and we'll catch you again soon.
- [51:41]
B
Take care.
- [51:49]
G
Of sa.