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Scottish Watches Podcast #784 : Formex Have Rewritten The Rules – Again!
00:56:42
This week on the Scottish Watches Podcast, we’re joined by Formex CEO Raphael Granito for what has become an annual tradition: unveiling something nobody saw coming. After a whirlwind tour...
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to the Scottish Watches podcast. We've got Raf back with us from Formex for his, I don't even know his annual visit. Do you turn up every few months? I don't know. You're like a bad case of herpes. We just can't get rid of you. But it looks like you've done some damage to your hand. Is that self inflicted or were you helping Dave out?
- [00:16]
B
Yeah, no, I was cooking for my wife's birthday and I stabbed my hand with a fillet knife.
- [00:21]
A
Okay. Proper standing, that's your story and you're sticking to it. No domestic abuse charges in your household. Anyway, check show notes, play along at home. Link will be in the video description. It'll also be in your podcast, depending if you're watching, listening or doing both. Raph's here because every year he does something absolutely crazy, which you wouldn't expect. He doesn't tell anybody about it. And it works. Lots of people in the watch industry, they try stupid ideas that are stupid and they fail spectacularly. Cost a lot of money can put people's jobs in jeopardy, that kind of thing. Collectors turn their nose up at it. Not looking at Bremont or anything like that. Not with Formics, not with Raph. Because when he does something, he actually puts some thought behind it. There's a lot of ingenuity. It's not just sporadic, random ideas that find synapses and then turn up to watches on wrists. No, he puts a lot of thought, dedication and expertise behind it. Which means when a watch comes out, you know it's going to be a winner. And pretty much every single thing I can think of in the last maybe five years that we've known each other, every release that you put out there has been warmly accepted by the watch buying, collecting community. And this time around, I think you have blown it right out of the war. Last year, ceramic we came across, we had a look at your atelier where everything is put together. We went behind the scenes. We filmed watches being assembled, movements been put inside watches, bracelets being constructed part by part. That was a bit of an insight for myself and Dave because we hadn't seen that kind of thing been done before and we kind of just thought, yeah, robots do that. No, skilled Swiss watchmakers do that. And this time around, I can't wait to tell you all about it. But you're just going to have to wait because we're going to do a little bit of a recap, see what's been happening for the last year or so. Then we'll get to the good stuff and the good stuff is well worth waiting for. So what have you been up to apart from stabbing yourself in the hand?
- [02:02]
B
So we just came back from a little bit of traveling. We had, I mean not traveling far because we had the Geneva shows. So we didn't participate at Watches and Wonders but we signed up for a new show on the side which was in the center of Geneva actually on the river called Chronopolis with a lot of or many cool brands, 20 of them, mostly young independent brands like ourselves. And we had a great time. We started at, we started on Tuesday off Watches and Wonders when the main show started as well. And yeah, we started 8am until 8pm so we'll definitely bring more staff next year because it was just Markus, Sabrina and I, so that was a pretty long week. But yeah, the days just flew by because we had everything from journalists, watch personalities and celebrities like yourself, you know, end consumers and a lot of retailers. So it was just open to the public, very cool space with a couple of bars strewn throughout the space. And you know, all the brands had the exact same getup with, you know, designed by a really cool designer. And we all had the same spaces, we all paid the same price, we all got the same exposure and it was really good. So from what I've heard from the other brands, it was very successful and it was great for us as well. And I have to say that the guys behind Highstyle magazine who actually threw this show did an amazing job because it was their first fair and I've already heard people asking them to do them in different cities on other dates. And yeah, I've heard as many as 50 brands want to participate on the next one. So we're going to have to find some space.
- [03:59]
A
Well, this is a bit of a wake up call for people listening and watching to this episode because Watches and Wonders is for the public on a couple of days at weekend and a lot of folks are put off by that. We are in a privileged position because we are known as media. We are allowed access on we don't get as much access as we would love because we have to curate who we go and see and what times we have available. But members of the public can travel over at the weekend and a lot of folks have said it's not worth it. I'm not going to go because I'm going to have to get hotels, travel. To do what? To go to a show for one day or two days. You're forgetting all these add on events all These add on shows that are taking place all throughout Geneva. There are lots of official watches and wonders, adjacent parties, nighttime events, shindigs at boutiques spread across the city. But you've also got time to watches. You've also got Chronopolis, you've also got all these other things happening at Boravage, at all the different independent arenas and hotels spread around. Most of them are free of charge. The one that Raf is talking about, the one he was in, you just walked in. There was security, but you just walked in. There was a free cloak room, there was a bar, there's a place for coffee. It was extremely well lit because the amount of natural light flowing in was incredible. The Versus PAL Expo, where watches, wonders take place and everything is curated. It's like, as we said before, going to Las Vegas, going to a casino, you don't know what time it is unless you've got an accurate watch. There's no windows, there's pumped in oxygen, there's free caffeine and champagne. So you really don't have a clue what's going on. When you go to the Independence places, you get it in all its glory and everybody is helping each other. They're all put together. You can walk from one booth to another. And it isn't just independence that maybe you've not heard of. Obviously you've heard of Formex Raspberry on the show numerous times. But the Underdog were there Awake, were there Nevada Grenchen, were there main watches, were there all kinds of brands that you've maybe heard of, you've seen on Instagram, you've seen a YouTube video or we talked about in the podcast. They're there and you're rubbing shoulders with them. You get to try the watches on. If you get a question, you're speaking to the guy that runs the company, the guy that founded the company, the watchmaker, the designer that put the thing together. So there is much more going on behind the scenes. So, yeah, go at PAL Expo, go to watches, Wonders, buy your ticket, go to these other events, give them the footfall as well. Because not everyone can go to watch the wonders. Not everyone's got $2 million to get a big booth for a week and then staff it and pay for all the stuff that goes with it. So it is really good if you can get in and around all these other places. Right. You were going to say something and I rudely interrupted you.
- [06:29]
B
Yeah. And if you're going to visit next year, try to time it so it's on the Day where the official chronobalist party is happening after the show. Because that was probably one of the best after show parties I've ever seen. You know, doing dance offs with the organizer and the other brands until the, the wee hours. That was really fun. We had probably around, I don't know, 600 people at the party because there was this, remember there was this outside courtyard and the inside and both were completely filled. There was live music, DJ bars. It was really, really cool and very good atmosphere. And as you said, when you come to our little booths you get to talk to the people behind the brand and more importantly you can really get hands on with any of our watches presented there. So trying them on you don't have to wait in lines, you don't have to, you know, get appointments or anything. So it's a really hands on approach much like we've been doing for years over in the States with the wind up shows which coincidentally is the next one we went to just after the Geneva show. So Marcus, Sabrina and I went to Wind Up San Francisco and it was a really, really great show. Probably the most people we've ever seen at the San Francisco show and you know, a lot of, a lot of new brands also and a lot of new people. So it's, it's amazing how we go to these shows. I think it's the fifth year in San Francisco and we still, every year I would say we get about 30% of people who've never heard of us or who never went hands on. So a lot of people just travel in from, you know, by airplane, by car to come and meet us and see the watches. So it was, yeah, great, great time over in San Francisco and also we then always organize events in the evening, you know, dinners and there was a great event like Clicky Bezel our retailer in San Francisco. So all over always a really good time to hang out with our friends from other brands and you know, all the media friends we've made over the years. So yeah, great, great traveling around and talking watches with different people.
- [08:38]
A
So who's this Sabrina that you're talking about? Because we know Marcus and we know yourself. So who's that?
- [08:43]
B
Sabrina works our marketing magic together with Markus and yeah, she's been around for over a year now because Markus needed support and yeah, thankfully she really loves to travel so we're able to take her with us to shows or even let her handle shows on her own. Next week while or this week as this airs, she's going to be in Bordeaux because We have a show called Time Fest in Bordeaux, we have a show called Our Chronos in Poland and we have our launch event of the new model in New York simultaneously. So yeah, we're happy to have people who like to travel and who know how to represent a brand well.
- [09:27]
A
And that is needed because we mentioned at the start of the show that every year you do something crazy. And last year it was ceramic. That was the big heavy hitting piece and you released various iterations. There were extremely limited editions. There were skeletonized ones with a bit of color, with a bit of gold. Then it changed. Then there was the solid dials. There was this, that and the other that came out throughout the year. And this is the first chance we properly had to recap exactly how it went down. So ahead of time you were slightly nervous because you thought, what's going to happen? There's all this tariff chat. There's all kinds of craziness going on in the world. We're about to do our biggest release ever in the history of Formex. I think it went well, but you're the man that knows all the figures behind the scenes. How did it go?
- [10:11]
B
It went really well. So much better than expected, even optimistically. So it became really a new staple at a new price point in our collection. And I think a lot of the customers are people who've already handled or even owned ceramic watches from other brands, usually quite a bit more expensive than our models. So they know what goes into or you know what, what these watches look like and the finishing and how hard it is to get it to look refined. So yeah, these, we, we met a lot of new kinds of customers, you know, the, your AP collectors, your Bulgari collectors. And people haven't necessarily paid much attention to Formex before now. That kind of opened the door for us to them and we'll keep providing. So there's quite a lot of exciting new things in terms of ceramic planned for this year. And yeah, then the other big release we're going to talk about later after
- [11:15]
A
we maybe let people know about the wrist check.
- [11:18]
B
Yes.
- [11:19]
A
What's this you've got in the wrist there?
- [11:20]
B
Yeah, so we've got my tried and tested Reef GMT in our black and gilt color variation with the ceramic bezel filled with actual copper particles mixed with resin and then hand filled with syringes, pneumatic syringes at our dial manufacturer not too far from here. And this is just the model I love to take out every couple of months when I'm not testing new prototypes or when the testing of the new models is done as it is now. And it's just one of my favorites to go back to, even though it's been only four or five years since we've launched it. It's a very slim 42 millimeter GMT with the SW 330 movement chronometer certified. What are you wearing, Rakeesh?
- [12:08]
A
I am wearing a watch because I'm wearing green today. So I went into the watch box and I pulled out a green watch. Does it look familiar?
- [12:14]
B
I think I've seen it before.
- [12:16]
A
You've seen this one before. This is the malachite and it is a smaller size of the Essence from Formex. This is a watch that you released, but you don't release enough of them because every year there is a waiting list. People are always vying to get this on the wrist because it stands out. It is incredible value for money. And Barbara Palumbo always wears this. Every event she goes to, she has her Vormex on the wrist showing it off to everybody. And the comments that she gets are just as cool as the comments we get. So, yeah, this is a fantastic watch. Couple of years old now, maybe three, maybe three and a half years old, but it still is doing damage. Smaller size, but wears extremely well. And it goes to show that it doesn't really matter the size of the watch as long as you can put it on the dial appeals to you. It's a win in my book. The so this one here, is it coming back into stock?
- [13:05]
B
Yes, it will be coming back and also we will launch it. The next launch we're going to have on this dial is going to be in 41. You know, we've launched a 41 millimeter size which was new last summer in 2025 because we had the 43 and the 39 and we thought 41 would be a sweet spot. So we are actually retiring the 43mil sizes only until enough people ask us to make it again. Because we're. Sometimes we listen to what people actually ask to do. Not always, but many times. And so the 41 has been a pretty good success for us. And when we came out with the new size, we also fitted it with a screw down crown, something we've learned while we developed the ceramic pieces because it was. We actually weren't able to do a screw down with the case suspension system because the whole screw and the whole crown and crown assembly actually have to move with the container in the outside case. So now we know how to do it and we Also updated the bracelet with a new clasp system that we patented last year where you can pull out on both sides.
- [14:11]
A
You're known for pulling out.
- [14:12]
B
Yes, yes.
- [14:13]
A
Apart from that one time, maybe about a year and three months ago. But anyway, we don't talk about that too much. Well, tell us if it's not trade secrets and patented because you are the master of patenting new things, especially when it comes to bracelets and class technology. How did you circumvent the problems with having the screw down crown when you've got the case suspension system? How did you fix that?
- [14:32]
B
We just had to come up because in the ceramic it was even harder because you know, the outside case is made of ceramic and the inside case as always is made of titanium like in your piece. And so we just had to work around that, you know, the thicknesses, the minimum thicknesses and also work some, work some magic with our, with our crown partner.
- [14:52]
A
Okay, that tells me. But that's absolutely fine. Don't worry about that. One quick question before we move on. Remember you released a kind of slab sided alien, I don't know, fifth element style watch. Was it called the Strata, something like that? How did that one go?
- [15:07]
B
This was a bit of a botched launch because we had to, we actually had some problems with the movement before the launch and we had already shot a video with Teddy over in Cleveland. So we had to like kind of come out and announce it before it was ready and before it was able to be sold. But yeah, we, we did. We made a batch of I think 150 pieces. So we were careful as, as always. This was a few, few years back as well and we sold all but a few pieces out. So it was a slower than usual start because it was also an, again a new price point for us. And also one of the challenges we had with that is it looked way more massive online than it is in, in person. We still show it at the, at these shows and whenever people put it on their list they go like, oh, I really like this online. But it's just looked so big and then when you put it on the wrist it actually wears very decent.
- [16:02]
A
I ask because one of the guys that listens to the show, we've met him a number of times, Gren. He comes to all kinds of events here in Scotland. He was at the Lasgo Watch show where you had James Porton son flying the flag for Formex. And they were dealing with a ton of existing and new customers at that event. And he was asking me what's the deal with this watch, is it going to come back? Is there going to be a new version of it? So I thought I'd ask the question and find out, but I, I buried the lead long enough. Usually we wait until near the end of the show before we bring out the big guns, we talk about the new stuff, but this one is going to take up the entirety of the remainder of the show. So just hit us with it. What is this new watch? Why is it so goddamn good looking?
- [16:41]
B
So it's our first manufacturer movement. I wouldn't call it in house because we worked with our friends in Beale that you might have heard of as well from Horaj, because, you know, as we travel to these shows all over the world, we usually sit on the same plane there and back a lot of times. So this has led to very long conversations and I've been following what Horaj was doing for the past. Well, actually since they're around and was really impressed by their capability of developing and implementing, manufacturing those movements with really forward technologies like applying silicone technology to their escapements and hair springs. And so we talked and one thing led to the next and, and they pretty much offered to, to make a movement for us and we thought about it for a little bit. And then I also was playing around with the idea before, but then how do you go about making your own movement? You will have to find a really good partner. So yeah, we, we partnered up and then the fun began because we started from a completely blank canvas as we like to do. And yeah, it took us about two and a half years. So it's based on their K2 movement. So it's basically the same architecture. We designed the bridge design the decoration and then everything that goes around the watch.
- [18:13]
A
So this is their micro rotor movement that they brought to market a number of years ago, maybe three and a bit years ago. It first came out in the superseed model and they offered it then with the tungsten weight or you could upgrade and spend a lot more money and get the platinum weight. But when I actually had a look at the model that you've got out and I got to see early interpretations of and I got to see it on your wrist. Another benefit of coming to these shows is if the founder of the brand is there and they're chatting to you and you don't pull your camera phone out or a real photography camera, they might show you a prototype, they might show you something that won't be out for a number of months. So you get a sneaky peek Ahead, even the journalists. But I had a look at this watch and the movement of looked slightly different. It looked like it had been, I don't know, revamped or revised slightly from what had been put in. Supersede?
- [18:58]
B
Yes, completely. So they basically gave us the 3D of all the bridges and we worked our own design philosophy on the bridges and also decided on what we're going to do decoration wise. They got us in touch and we even had a meeting with Horosh team and the specialists that do laser decoration for them. So, yeah, basically the whole texturing looks like a grain a. It is a granae, but it's all laser textured. And then the bridge edges have this vertical brushing and that is a hand brushing. So each bridge will be a hand brush and then we coat it with a black gold. It literally is gold that is black with a. And it is coated via electroplating process. Because I wanted to this kind of little bit darker look. I wanted a really clean look. And if you go to our ceramic pieces where we made a movement with Soprod, you know, the full dial versions and the dark matter, Soprod actually let us play around and design the decoration on that one. And it's quite similar in terms of design philosophy. It's also done by laser texturing. It's also dark. And yeah, we kind of wanted to continue with this theme of finishing. It doesn't have a lot of falses going on in the decoration. So you have this really nice second layer or second level of the bridges that is granae finished and the brushed bridges. And then you have the full tungsten rotor really popping out quite a bit because it's much brighter than the rest of the movement. Then you have our logo sticking out from the inside of the bridge and you also have silicone tech written on there, just to point out that isn't a run of the mill hairspring or escapement in there.
- [20:52]
A
Well, for anyone that has paid any attention to our podcast for the last few years, they'll know that Dave obviously works at Arash. I don't know exactly what he does, but he definitely works there because I keep seeing him wearing a tuxedo in various videos on the Internet that are rather strange and peculiar. But apart from that, they have been a brand that we've known about for just around about the same amount of time as yourself, because they came across to Scotland just before the pandemic hit, probably late 2019 and it was Andy. And so they came over to talk about this in house thing. They were producing the Tourbillon and they created the most inexpensive Swiss made tourbillon at that moment in time. There are lots of things from far from places. The other cheapest one after that I believe was the tag nanograph. That was sitting around about £18,000 at that moment. A lot more expensive. Now if you buy stuff from tag, that will get Tourbillon. But at that moment I spotted that they knew what they were doing. They weren't just taking an ETA movement, playing around with it a little bit, releasing it, saying it was their own and they weren't lying about things that lots of other watchmakers have done. They've said, oh, we made this. Then it turns out Seiko made it or somebody else made it. Down the road, they've continued that with Supersede. As I mentioned, they brought out, first of all, they did the K1, which ended up with Bremont buying the licensing and the IP to utilize that. They called it their ENG300. Again, another back and forth behind the scenes where some tales were told that didn't exactly work out in their favor. But they've continued, they've done this, they've done that. And the thing with an Arage movement is, or an Arage watch, the front is as good as the back. You look at the back and you want to wear the watch back to front. They actually made a watch where the movement was back to front because it was so goddamn good looking. And the fact that when you look at your release, the front of it is. I don't even know, it's very organic, it's alien. The way that you've sculpted and you've got the indexes sitting on the dial as if they've almost blended in, they've fallen through. It's like an alternative parallel universe. And then you've got this movement on the back. It is the marriage and the meeting of the two halves that work perfectly well. And one of the things that I actually noticed about this movement is how thin it is.
- [22:56]
B
Yeah. So the, the movement itself is 2.9 millimeters, 2.9 millimeters thick only or thin, I would say. And one of the big advantages is, you know, the tech they put in for the winding mechanism. So you can you get probably one of the most efficient winding micro rotors. Because, you know, if you've owned the micro rotor of any brands, you probably notice that if you don't, you know, move your wrist very much, you probably have to going to end up having to hand wind it to keep it going at some Point, you know, besides the fact that it winds extremely efficiently, you know, within an hour of regular wear you can wind wind it up to 10 hours of automatic power reserve and then it has a total power reserve of 72 hours. It goes higher than that but it's rated officially at 72 hours. And that is also due to not only a good mainspring design and architecture but also due to the, you know, lubrication less and friction efficient design or properties of the silicone components. So you've got the pallet fork, the wheel and the hairspring. And obviously one of the main factors for friction is actually that pallet fork releasing and blocking the teeth of the, of the wheel while giving it the 3.5 Hz rhythm. And you know, with silicone you don't have to lubricate that so you get also less wear and tear and increased efficiency as well. So that's a huge advantage. And other than that, you know, the reason why we trusted Horage with our first manufacturer movement is also because they've used that movement, although it has an upgrade update that we can talk about later. They've used that for quite a while now and have improved it. They've tested it also on the market on their own pieces and it's chronometer certified. So our piece will be chronometer certified which is, you know, right out of the gate for a manufacturer movement. This is quite, quite a confidence booster for ourselves and obviously the people who are going to purchase one. And you know, nowadays I see a lot of. I just saw another release today with co manufactured or you know, like adapted or adjusted movement and it says chronometer grade accuracy which you know, means it's regulated to plus minus four. But there's nobody checking that. I'm sure the customers will, you know, hold them to it if it doesn't run in that. But chronometer means, chronometer certified by Cosc means that it's been tested for 15 days in three different temperatures and five different positions. And it has to keep an average of -4 and +6 seconds. And then once we've assembled it we run through the, not the whole process of the two weeks but it takes about, you know, now it's going to take longer because the power reserve is longer. But we do a manual winding and then we do a zero hours which means straight after winding we'll, we'll do the chronometry after setting the hands and encasing it because encasing a movement might actually give you, you know, air resistance for the, for the balance wheel and might change the properties. So in all of our watches, which most of them are Chronometer certified, we do a whole battery of testing during a whole week, which also includes the power reserve testing from manual winding and then also from automatic winding on a, on a winder.
- [26:35]
A
We got to see some of this when we came across last year to see the ceramic watches been produced, built and put together. And again, it's always refreshing to get such access at different brands because there are some big players that allow you to come in, look behind the curtain, like the Wizards of Oz. And then there's other ones where we've talked about this before. It's like you're on a merry go round at a fairground. You're almost, you know, going round Disneyland. You're getting to see what they want to show you through the glass cabinets. It's like the zoo. And the real, real hard work is actually miles behind. You never get to see really what happens. You get the dog and pony show at the front and with you it was like, yeah, look at, like all the printouts were there, all the cost certificates. Then you had your own stuff, then you had the clean room. It was just, it was really good. We'll put some video clips in the show, notes from our trip. I'll actually put the link to the video that we made when we came across last year and people can go and have a look at that to get an idea of what's behind the scenes. And the same with Orage. When we went to visit them, when they were creating all kinds of cool new products. This is before Dave got the job there. We didn't know that it was actually a scouting exercise to steal him away from Scotland. The same idea runs true. They were showing us everything. They weren't hiding stuff. In fact, they were showing us some legal documents where the guys that run the Raj were going up against Rolex in the courts. And that is something that you don't usually want to try and do unless you know what you're doing. And they came out of that on top. So, yeah, guys to watch. And this new watch, the fun doesn't just end on the back end. The fun starts at the beginning on the front. And this dial, when you showed it to me, I thought it was a mock up. I didn't think it was a real watch because I have not seen a watch with this kind of integrated bracelet with a micro rotor movement. And I've got. The closest thing I can think of is probably my CPEC antarctique because it's got micro rotor movement in the back and you're right, it kind of dies. You have to wind it and moving around. If you're a desk diver, if you're running a laptop, you're working in an office, doesn't get the opportunity to spin properly. So I'm looking forward to actually having a look at one of these watches. When you send one across, put it
- [28:37]
B
on your right hand, Ricky.
- [28:38]
A
But I'm left handed. Okay then, nice one. Good try. But the front row of it I mentioned earlier, the way the dial is not flat, it almost looks like a sand dune, something like that. Do you want to give us a bit of an audio description for the people listening at home about the design philosophy? What is new? Because the whole thing looks new to me and tell me about that dialogue.
- [29:00]
B
So the design inspiration for the whole watch, as I said in my, in my head, it had to be an integrated bracelet watch. Why? Because we haven't done one and I quite like them, a lot of them out there. But we also wanted to do something that hasn't. Like always we try to do something that is original and hasn't, you know, doesn't. I don't want people to look at it and say, oh, that reminds me of this watch, or that reminds me of that watch. If you get 10 people and everyone says another thing, then that's mission accomplished for me. But if all of them say, oh, that looks like an ap, then yeah, probably taking a bit too much inspiration from other models.
- [29:42]
A
Well, do you want me to tell you what I think it looks like?
- [29:44]
B
Go ahead.
- [29:45]
A
I can't actually tell you what it looks like because I don't think it looks like anything. But if I had to closely think about it, I would say Laurent Ferrier. Yeah.
- [29:53]
B
No, I mean, this wasn't necessarily something I had in the top of my mind or front of mind. I do very much appreciate their design. So mostly because it looks so pure and elegant. Most of their designs or all of them, and it's something I wanted to achieve in this watch is something that looks very pure and not noisy when you look at it. But then when you take a closer look at it, you'll discover small details that don't perturb the clean look, but give you a lot to look at actually, and be happy about when you wear it. So the brief was integrated bracelets then obviously this manufacturer movement is quite a bit more expensive than regular movements we would use for, for our watches. And by quite a bit, I Mean about probably more than five times, you know, one might do is okay, we need to keep the cost of the other components low so we can still offer it at a, at a reasonable price. But this is not really how we work. Because my, my idea behind this is if the movement is so much more capable and also expensive, then, you know, the other components need to match that. So we went for a titanium grade 5 for the case and bracelet. And then the dial, since, you know, we have our dial manufacturer Cadronor, in the, in the mountains just adjacent to Biel. It's about a 45 minute drive if you drive fast.
- [31:25]
A
Is that Hiram Kuv's place?
- [31:27]
B
He used to be the CEO there, but he actually retired. So there's somebody new who's running the place now. But we're still very connected and almost talk on a daily basis about our ideas and how to actually make them. And this was the idea behind all of the design, was how integrated steel or sports watches are. You know, a lot of the time there are very sharp angles, very clear cut lines look very architectural and very geometrical in nature with a lot of straight lines coming together and going apart. And we wanted to kind of add some organic shapes to that. So I always, you know, my mood board, when we talked with our team here, when, when starting to work on the project, my mood board included stones that you'll find in a, in a creek bed that have been rounded and shaped in, you know, over, over hundreds of years or tens of years or even thousands of years or you know, rock formations in, in the Moab Desert or in, in, in Utah that, you know, get these rounded shapes and kind of aerodynamic shapes really also because, because they're shaped by air, hence also the name aria, by the way, because it looks like something that could have been shaped by wind. But also because an aria is a classical piece in music. And this is kind of a piece that we wrote from start to finish, including the movement. So that's where the name stems from. And so the dial, when you look at it while you're wearing it, it looks like a, a very satin matte surface with very interesting colors. We have three colors, so we have the Selva green that is also inspired by greens you find in nature. Artesia gray, you know, kind of a slate gray and Denso blue. So it's a blue that I haven't seen like that yet in any watches. It looks very elegant but also very natural at the same time.
- [33:40]
A
You mentioned pastel there, and that's the word I was kind of looking for. In my head, I was thinking if you look at terracotta, certain types of ceramics, pottery, things like that, very muted matte colors, but with a depth to them, which is, you know, subsurface scattering, that kind of idea. It's something you don't usually see on a dial.
- [34:00]
B
You know, the watch case total height is 6.9 millimeters. So adding depth to a dial that has to be so thin was actually a huge challenge. And also how to make it because it has a concave shape, the dial, so it kind of curves up on the, on the outside. And then you have these organic shapes kind of sculpted into it. So the indexes are also not an index you see every day. They're rounded, rose, gold colored, almost copper colored actually with, you know, orange super luminova. And when I, when and I sent this design to the dials, to the tile geyser, are you sure you want to use this color combination? And then I said, yeah, I think it's going to look good. And when they saw the final result, they're like, oh, okay, yeah, you were right. It looks cool. And they're sitting, the indexes are sitting on a little platform and then right towards the center, you have this little kind of shark fin that goes into the dial but then disappears towards the center. And, and this is something that I got inspired from. When you look at a rock outcropping in a river, or even you look at a bridge and you look at the flowing river underneath, you know, the shape that the water makes behind the pillar, it kind of gets driven out and then comes back together in this very natural flow. And so this is kind of the inspiration behind those shapes. And we had to use stamping to get the shapes right. And then also in the small seconds, you have a 60 seconds second partition in the small second counter that you then have the golden second markers printed onto it. And all of this, we tried to do it by machining just to get a look, but it looked terrible because you could see the machining marks. It took like eight hours to machine out of a brass plate. And yeah, it was just not very good looking. So, you know when you're in Switzerland and you launch a stamping tool that will set you back, you know, a cool 12 grand or something. So you better be sure that it's actually going to be usable. So there's a lot of this design that we didn't know how it was going to look in real life. So we had to really visualize it not only in 3D because you can't really get the depth and turn it in your hands when you do a 3D. So, yeah, a lot of this really had to be visualized in our minds. And it was a very interesting process.
- [36:31]
A
This episode. Unless you already figured this out, I'm going to tell you, show notes are your friend. You will want to look at that or even just look at the thumbnail image to get an idea of this new release. Because Raf's doing a really good job of explaining what's going on. But unless you look at the pictures, you are missing a trick. Looking at the dial straight on, one of my favorite things with this is you've actually got a cover on the center pinion. It's got a cap. Watches that don't have caps in the center pinion look ugly as fast. And I don't like it, especially on expensive watches where they don't do this. You'll get the handset. I don't think this is a handset I have seen before. It's got a cutout and then it mirrors the cutout with the lume in orange at the end. It extrudes outwards. You look at the way that these little indexes have been placed and it's almost a pipette within a pipette pointing inward inbound. You've got the markers, you've got the logo at the top, and it's almost sitting in a lake or a lock. It's bedded into the dial itself. And then you've got the scallop. It looks like scalloping the way that you've got this little shark fin. It could be an aerodynamic part of a race car. It could be something fitted to an Aston Martin. It just everything works together. And you have to see this watch in real life. Gets a show. Come along to a show, go to an event. Go to your local boutique if they stock Formex, because this is phenomenal. And then the concentric circles that you've got, or the emanation points of the sub dial at the bottom where you've got the second counter. It all works amazingly well. Looking at the way that the bracelet integrates into the watch head, the side profile, it's just. It's fantastic. It is your best yet. And we've not even talked about the price point, so I mentioned Czapek Antarctique. Micro rotor movement. Similar vein, similar vein. Expensive watch. I know because I actually own one. With Formax, the price is always a lot less than you would think or you'd hope with this one. Are we going to tell people the price point?
- [38:31]
B
Yes, we can go for it. 5,900 Swiss francs in Switzerland. So that comes out to be about taxes included. £6,500. So as I mentioned, yeah, the price point is quite a bit higher than our regular offerings, slightly higher than the ceramic pieces. And it's just because that's where we landed. We didn't set out and say we need to hit this price target or that price target because that would lead us to have to, you know, not necessarily cut corners, but definitely cut costs in terms of materials. The finishing. Everything is hand finished on this piece. You know, you said the case has this curve, this organic curve when you look from above. And then this really integrates seamlessly into the bracelet where you have the polished chamfers on the side, but every link has a polished chamfer on the inside at exactly the right angle that when you look at the watch, they will actually be glistening at you and give you this really nice reflections. And then every link, despite being very thin, as is the whole watch, they're actually curved. So you have a curve that you don't necessarily see with the naked eye unless you pay a lot of attention and turn it in just the right direction. But overall it adds to the organic feel on the wrist and the organic look look of this piece. So there's a lot of little hidden details in this watch that are almost sub perception level, but they contribute to the overall design.
- [40:07]
A
Well, I think this is, it's a weird one because last year I could have said the same thing. This could be your Christopher Ward moment where they were known for doing watches at 800 bucks, 1,000 bucks. Then they upped the ante. They had their bel canto, they had their 12, their 12x leading into local, leading into such and such. And a lot of people had worries that, oh well, that's it. Games of bogey. The price point has shifted in the wrong direction. But Christopher Ward never cut off what they originally did. They were still producing watches at the same price points, the same models, the same firm favorites with the fans. I take it you're going to be doing the same. You're not going to start cutting off the field watch and other things at the lower price points.
- [40:49]
B
Yeah, it's already, we already killed it, so that's not going to be around anymore. And I'm kidding. No. So Formex, Formex, kind of. We were able to do this thanks to the customers who went along with us during the past years, you know, put up with our shenanigans and supported us by putting their money behind the brand by buying watches. And so we're never going to forget that and we're always going to make watches in that price segment as well. And kudos to all of our retailers who, you know, actually have to accept same as us to, to collect a little bit less margin on our products which allows us to keep the prices also lower because, you know, the, the origin story of our amazing value for money concept is because we went direct to consumer. When I relaunched the brand, we did a Kickstarter. Nobody wanted to really work with us. We didn't have any connections. We didn't come from the, the commercial side of the watch industry. We came from the product or I came from the product product creation side and manufacturing side. So yeah, slowly but surely we had more and more retailers who, you know, whenever they reached out, my first thing was, yes, but our margin is not going to be higher than that. And they believed in the product, much like our customers who helped us get where we are today. And so yeah, we're not going to stop making watches for, for those customers ever. And I think, you know, the, let's say the little bit tougher situation the watch industry finds itself in nowadays. I think a big factor in that is the relentless increasing of prices by many of the brands, sometimes multiple times a year without apparent reason and without, you know, actually following up with heightening the quality or the standards of their products and which you can't really do nowadays anymore because the customers are just too well informed. They can read up. They have the Internet, they have people like you and YouTubers who really look behind the product and spread the knowledge. So same as Christopher Ward, when we land at this higher price point, it's just a function of our creative expression and that's what we need to collect from our customers to turn a profit with that project, which then in turn is only going to finance the next amazing project that we're thankful to be able to work on. So yeah, that's the concept. The concept is that there is not much of a concept.
- [43:20]
A
Sometimes that's the best way and to throw it back many decades. People could say the same about, for instance, Ford or I don't know, Vauxhall or Opel, because when the Ford RS Cosworth Escort came out, that cost a lot of money and people said it's a Ford. Well, yeah, it was, but it's not the badge or when you had the Lotus Carlton and people thought it's just an Opel, it's Just an Omega, it's just a whatever. But it's the product, it's what you're getting. It's not the brand, it's not the badge. So you have to look beyond it and actually look at the spec of this. If anyone's a bit concerned about the price point, because it's a Formex, don't think that way. People thought that way. But Christopher Ward and then local came out and smashed it for them. The Bel Canto came out, smashed it for them. The jumpers, they did in collaboration. So things have moved forward. Don't be linked to the past and don't have an idea in your head and stick to it. Just because people used to do something at one price point, well, that doesn't designate their future. They're not tied to it forever. I love this. Can't wait to actually get one to play with, because the one that was on your wrist when we met you, Chronopolis, stayed on your wrist, didn't come off your wrist, didn't get to play with it, didn't get to borrow it like we have in the past.
- [44:29]
B
3rd of June is when we host our event with our friends from James Porter and son. So Simon and his team will be there and we're hosting an event in Glasgow at the Exchange. Please visit our Instagram, but also the Formix Watch Club, which is a private club on Facebook. If you're on Facebook, all the infos are going to be there. Or subscribe to our newsletter, which you're going to get an invitation to that event. So it's going to be a really cool evening. Ricky's going to be there and many other people, this team from James Porter and some and myself. And yeah, we're gonna be there for some good food, good drinks and hopefully good watches as well.
- [45:13]
A
I loved last year because ceramic is a material that I really like on watches and I got rid of My Omega Speedmaster Apollo 8 to get rid of that with my black ceramic watch. Still got my Tudor Fast Rider. Don't think I'll ever leave the collection. But the iterations and the variations that you brought out last year and seeing them getting that was the key point. Watching somebody assemble this, like Lego, but at a much higher scale and a much higher brain point, was phenomenal for me. Getting to see the guy putting the movement inside and how intricate as you see the videos, that's the thing in a video on YouTube, it zoomed in. It's macro photography. Even on your phone, the screws inside the movement are gigantic. But when you see it in real life, it's. It's almost impossible. I don't understand and fathom how these people can do it. It's like brain surgery. It is that clever. And this new release here, I think this is going to be the one that actually takes you beyond where you are just now, because you've been bubbling under. A lot of people have an idea of Form x. They're not 100% sure what it is, how it works, how it came to be. And there are various brands that the story hasn't quite burst through the surface yet, like, nor can people kind of have an idea about it, but they don't fully understand the background and the brand themselves. They try their best, but it's an intricate story with you guys. There's the founding and then there's a rebirth. You took it on and I believe. Is this not maybe your 10th anniversary
- [46:34]
B
from when I took over? Yes. But then I took about two years to develop and when we actually relaunched it, it was late 18. So it'd be the eighth anniversary of the relaunch of Formix.
- [46:46]
A
If you're a Swiss watch company, that gives you two years to celebrate it and just play around with the numbers.
- [46:51]
B
Well, you know, that's how that works. Last year was the actual 25th anniversary of the founding of Form X. And yeah, we plan to launch this model in October. And that just goes to show how much longer we took to actually get everything just right. Because I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to rush this. And every single component, as you mentioned, you know, even the hands were hard, you know, hard to make, where you have to kind of play around, do various iterations and those iterations take time. Even though we have amazing dial manufacturing capabilities, we had to play around so long to get that dial just the way it is. And then various iterations of the bracelet and the case to go through. And every time you have to make a new, you know, Those are like 40 links or something like that. So you have to make them, you have to finish them, assemble them, and then you go like, ah, just a touch of that. We need to change. So, yeah, took a long time, but I'd rather get it right then at the right time.
- [47:51]
A
Correct. And you don't release anything until it is right. And I know firsthand because when we did a limited edition number of years ago with you, which people are still asking for to this day, we still get emails asking about it. So maybe later on this year those emails will stop I hope so. Who knows, who knows, There might be
- [48:08]
B
something bubbling there could well be.
- [48:11]
A
You know, you could get your rocks off on this one. So it just goes to show that with determination, ingenuity, prowess and knowing this industry back to front, that's another thing that people don't really understand the concept when they talk about Formex. They know that behind the scenes there's various different family businesses and companies. And that's why earlier I mentioned your uncle. Because when we were working on our project a number of years ago, you kept saying to me, my uncle up at the dial place. That's why I thought, right, okay, he ran that didn't understand that he'd obviously retired. But your father has been in the industry for a very, very long time. Behind the scenes, he helps out numerous companies across the globe. Not just Swiss partners, but across the globe. But Formex is its own thing and I have defended you to people that maybe didn't really understand what was going on to say, no, no, hold on. When the watchmaker was ill, it was RAF that stayed until 1am to build the watches to get out to customers. So they weren't disappointed. There isn't this Tudor factory behind the scenes that just turn stuff out robots. That's not the case. So as much as you're connected family wise throughout the Swiss industry, this is your baby. No one's helping you. You're doing all this yourself. And that is the bottom line. That is the thing that people need to take away from this. And that is why the price point of the watches is so low. It's affordable, it's economical for what you get. It's not cheap, it's not budget, it's accessible. And you will not find this type of watch at this price point with this type of movement in it, with this dial. In this case, this is a one off and people should really jump on it. Three different colorways probably to start with. But I wouldn't say wait, I'd say jump in now. Get your name down. If you're interested, follow these guys on Instagram, check out their website, join their mailing list and that private group that I think I may already be part of on Facebook because we have a limited edition Formics. I'm probably already in there so you can say hi to me. But yeah, this is phenomenal. I don't have to give it my blessing because it's going to take over the world without me, without Scottish watches and without Dave Sharp involved in it whatsoever. All the best will in the world for this One. Anything else people should keep an eye on before we go? We've got a few more minutes. Is there anything else in the other lineups that maybe there's new iterations, variations, color schemes, changes of this, that and the other?
- [50:19]
B
Yeah, so one thing to note is that we only made 100 movements to begin with. You know, this project started two and a half years ago. Kind of a big financial risk for us. And back then we didn't, you know, we, we had an amazing development in terms of volumes and revenue in the past couple of years. Especially the last two years was our quickest growth growth. So nowadays I would probably make a little bit more, but that takes time. And so the first batch is going to be shipped to the customers and to our retail partners in, in September. So we expect them, I mean, fingers crossed. But we, we think that the first batch might sell out quickly, then the next batch is for, you know, spring next year. So if you like this piece, jump on board and give us the vote to show us that this was the right move, the right design and that we should keep working on it for further iterations of this project.
- [51:20]
A
This isn't hyperbole. When people usually say jump on it, they're scarce. You'll never get one again. This is not because the watch I'm wearing on my wrist here, you can't get a hold of this, this malachite thing. This. As soon as it appears every year there's only about 100 pieces of it. As soon as this appears, it disappears and people genuinely ask, where can I get one when I'm wearing it? I get messages. We get asked questions all the time. Where can we get one of these Malacait watches? And unfortunately it's Chrono 24 on eBay. So when this guy says, you know, get your name down soon, we've only got X amount, he is not thinking you need to get on board with it. And this is phenomenal. Can't wait to get one across to maybe play with for more than five minutes. And obviously when we come across the James Porter event here in Scotland, it will be something to behold. It'll be a spectacular event and you'll obviously be touring, you'll be doing wind ups, you'll be doing intersects, whereas other places people can check out. Over the next few months we will
- [52:10]
B
be at hands on Horology and we will have a few pieces there, that is in June, I believe. And then we'll be at wind up Chicago. I'll go there myself with Markus and we will have the three colors there. And then there will be multiple other shows. Just follow us on Instagram, subscribe to our newsletter, because when we launch something, we usually give you a 24 hour hangout head start to be able to order it before the press even publish it. And so yeah, it's a newsletter that won't spam you every week. We actually just write you when we actually have something to say. So don't be scared to sign up.
- [52:52]
A
And that is pretty much an end of a show because we've covered everything we need to. We told you about where these guys have been, where they're going, what they've got out and what you should expect later on this year. And perhaps there may be a collab with a Scottish podcast, something like that. Who knows? Who knows? We can't tell. We can't predict the future. But it's always great fun to have Raf on the show. And your praises have been sung from the rooftops here in Scotland because since you got involved with James Portland son, all the locals now we are obviously called Scottish Watches. That's where we record from, that's where we publish from. But Earth split is about 40% UK, 40% America and then 20% rest of the world. That kind of seems to be the norm when it comes to English speaking nations and watch publications, YouTube channels, Instagram, etc. Etc. But the guys here in Scotland and the UK, they love what you're doing. That's why I was asked personal questions to ask you when I next had you on the show. And the phenomenal response speaking to the team behind the scenes at James Portland, since you got involved with those guys, you have been flying off the shelves. They can't keep the watches in stock long enough. So yeah, you're doing great things.
- [53:54]
B
They are doing an amazing job. You can feel that they really like the product. And we also have a big thank you to you and your team to say because you guys covered us from the beginning when we weren't able finding people who believe in the product, who are fun to hang out with as well. That's a huge plus, is something that we really needed and that helped us, you know, grow the brand. So thank you very much to you and your team.
- [54:21]
A
Well, you know, it. What goes around comes around. And you guys have been awesome with us from the beginning. There are a lot of people that we tied in with when we first started and maybe they were on the beginning of their journey. We could talk about the guys at Moser with a streamliner. We could talk about the guys at Japek, various other players that have been there since day one and they've remained friends ever since. And that is a sign of a good collaboration. So I'm going to wish you all the best for the new release. Can't wait to catch up in real life. Thank you so much for taking us out for dinner when we were over at Watches Wonders. Myself, Dave and Barbara Pombo needed to be fed and you know the best places in town when we come to Geneva. So that was great fun. And yeah, you can check us out. We're out twice a week maybe. Actually, before you go and check us out twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays, you might want to go through the back catalog. Miz will link in the show notes prior editions of the podcast where we've had Raf on talking about all kinds of things. It could be ceramic watches last year, it could be our limited edition a couple of years ago. It could be the field watch, the Essence Legera, all these different things that we've talked about since we got on board with each other a number of years ago. Because there's always something you can pick up, something you can learn. And maybe if you've heard it before, you might want to go back because it has been a couple of years and your memory might be failing you as much as mine does. So tons of stuff in the back catalog when it comes to format, including some videos on YouTube. Follow us on Instagram ottottishwatches. Make sure you sign up for his mailing list because it is good. It is not full of spam. It is not the usual stuff that happens every single week that you'll get from everybody else. They only alert you when there's something cool and if you don't read it, you might miss out. There might be a bargain. There might be an opportunity in there that you're going to kick yourself for if you do miss out on that. So Raf, thank you so much for joining us today and we'll catch you again soon.
- [56:00]
B
Thank you Ricky and thank you everyone for listening.