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Scottish Watches Podcast #804 : Artistically Bringing a Smile To The Dial
00:58:13
Chris Alexander, The Dial Artist, has become an international sensation! The big focus is the new Christopher Ward Xander, a collaboration more than a year in the making that saw...
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Scottish Watches podcast. It's like I've got a distant related cousin or a brother that I know nothing about. He looks a little bit like me, goes to the same barber, stays in the same country as me and is into watches. It is, of course, Chris Alexander, the dial artist, back with us once again, having roamed the globe, been everywhere, passport has been checked through multiple different places across the planet. And he is here once again to talk about wristwatches, what he's been up to, his own creations and his own collaborations. Because he doesn't just release stuff himself. He works with the greatest minds, the greatest talents that have produced some of the best watches you could imagine. And we're not talking hundreds of thousands, we're talking hundreds of pounds. We're talking everything from that to that and everything in between. There's a latest release that we are going to cover and that is the reason you're on the show just now. We tried to get you before you went to America, to Chicago. You were just super, super busy. You don't have any time in your schedule for your little old pal down in Glasgow. But you're here today and we're going to talk about all kinds of cool stuff. We're also going to tell you to check the show notes. That's where all the pictures, the tech spec and the links in the high resolution images will live. It's all good. Listen to podcast and audio. It's great watching things on YouTube. But to go back after the fact or as you're listening along and to be able to read the information that maybe we're not relaying in real time and if you're interested in any of the things that he is up to, you want to be quick because his limited edition releases are limited and it's very difficult to get hold of them after the fact. If you like what you see, go grab it now, don't cry later. But welcome back to the show, the dial artist. How are things going?
- [01:30]
B
Lovely to be here, Ricky. I'm well, I'm well. It's good to see you. Not in person this time, but good to see you nonetheless.
- [01:35]
A
Is it like a mirror?
- [01:36]
B
It's scary. It's unbelievably scary, you know, so it's. Yeah, the mirror is very favorable to me if I'm looking at you.
- [01:43]
A
Oh, thank you. Well, you're in my deepest thoughts at all times, Chris. So you are. And you don't stay that far away. You're only maybe an hour away. And I did want you to come down to the studio this time. But you couldn't because again, you're super busy. You've got a lot on your plate, but we should probably get right into the meat of the matter. We're going to do a wrist check because that'll lead into why you're here today. So what you got on the Wrist for us?
- [02:02]
B
Nothing. Let me put one on. That's terrible, isn't it? I was busy taking my mic. Wasn't working, but now it is. So I have the limited edition Xander that was released earlier this month. Oh, no, early last month. I can't believe we're in August already. So, yes, the 9th of July was the official release date, which was happened to be my birthday. So a very serendipitous release indeed.
- [02:26]
A
Okay, well, we'll get into more on that in a second because that's why you are here. That is the latest release on wrist, and I am wearing my latest, latest not release because I had nothing to do with this, apart from I got one, but I am wearing a Christopher Ward as well. And this is my latest pickup from the guys at cw. I never thought a couple of years ago that I would have more than one Christopher Ward in the collection. It was a brand I appreciated, I liked. And what they do for the community and the industry at large is to be commended at all points because, yes, some of the things in their catalog are a little bit derivative of other things. You know, I wouldn't say they're a tribute band, but they play all the golden oldies and they play them so well at a. A less expensive price point than what you would expect. And I remember bringing Mike France, the CEO of the show, onto maybe one of the early episodes of the podcast. And he told me how he would carefully go around different boutiques back in the day, trying out different watches, different bracelets, listening to the clicking sound of bezels and actually recording it unknown to the people in the store. So he could then get his team to try and replicate the Rolex, the Omega, the whatever sound, because that is the thing people want love buy. And he wanted to reproduce that at a lower cost. And he has done that. Then they really kicked things off. I would say probably Bel canto is when they got a bit of fame out in the public. We had known about them for long in sundry. They had created lots of stuff before I even got into the hobby. But that was when the real populace took note of what CW were up to. Then they followed the almonder 12, the 12x, the loco lots of different things. Lots of collaborations they got in tow with the likes of the folks from the British watch and clock makers. We've got Studio Underdog, we've got Fears, we've got different people like that. And they have grown, they have built and they've actually taken over lots of different, smaller organizations, amalgamated them into the fold. So now they've got the technology in Switzerland to create crazy designs, crazy movements, all kinds of stuff. And that leads me to the Bel Canto on the wrist today that I thought I would never own. I did not like the Bel Canto, thought it was a lovely watch. Not my styling, very Breggy, very classical. Arnold and Son, that kind of style. But this one, it's Tron on the wrist. It is the Lumiere edition. And I saw it in Dubai and fell in love. It took a long time to get. Because it was sold out. Yeah. Christopher Ward now sell out pretty much all the releases they put together. But I finally got my hands on. I think it was about March, so a good delay of about four or five months until I got this one. I have taken it everywhere because we get so many sent in to play with. I buy so few because I'm always test driving other ones. It's like car journalist never buys a car because there's always a new car in the driveway to get to test that is on someone else's dime. Someone else is paying the fuel, the insurance and the cost. Why would they bother? Same with me. And I'm trying to think. Last year it was. Oh, friend of yours? Seconde. He actually collaborated and produced the Snake Watch for Chinese New Year, Year of the Snake, and it was to do with Nokia and obviously the classic game back in the late 90s, early 2000s. But we're not here to talk about my Bel Canto Lumiere. We're here to talk about what you've been up to. And let's just hit the road running. Tell us about this collaboration.
- [05:23]
B
Oh, I mean, what an incredible story. And I totally agree, the Bel Canto luminaire is. It packs a punch when you get the. The black light on it. But, yeah, so the Xander was a love story for about a year and a half between myself and Christopher Ward, which was an incredible journey. So it kind of started all the way back in 2024 when I was kind of chatting with a gentleman called Julianne, who recently kind of moved to Christopher Ward from another brand. And we've been talking for a while to do a collaboration now is an opportunity to kind of See, see that through and discuss stuff. Just because we were in that position to do that with Christopher Ward and conversations were all about how can we do something new and unique and bring that art style that I like or the abstract contemporary to the fold. And I pushed the buttons. I said I'd love to do it on a skeleton. I think skeleton is not something that I've touched before. If we have the capabilities and in house opportunity to do that, I think Christopher Ward is the ideal brand and they were 100% behind it. So it speaks to what you talked about before, where they have that Swiss part of their brand with, you know, Joerg Sr. And Joerg Jr. Kind of running that, where they're able to develop and push the boundaries of watchmaking at the price point they do. And just in watchmaking in general with the Loco and Bel Canto is incredible. So what they were able to do and support with was to remove all the watch parts and provide them to me without the jewels so I can actually paint them and do my artwork on them when I can, then send them back to them. They can refit all the jewels, they can build the watches, they can test the watches and then we have a legitimate, full, functional skeleton hand painted watch, which I don't think ever has been done before in industry. I know that there's RNs out there that Congo's painted, but this, I think there's eight individual parts of this watch that have been painted per watch. And I don't think that's necessarily the same with that project, the RM project, I think there's maybe only one or two. So having that manufacturing support and capabilities really has made something quite special and unique. And then that all kind of spiraled into production beginning of this year. It was a very short production run just because there was delays in getting all the parts organized and ready. So within 50 days we had to get everything done. So in 50 days it was 18 hour days, 900 odd hours to paint 150 watches which was equivalent of 1, 300 parts. For the production run there was additional made for supplies just in general. So it was second fast, no sleep, marriage was on the rocks, kids never saw me. But at the end we produced, I think, something that we're all very proud of. And it was kind of culminating, crescendoed in this release near Chicago showroom, which was not long opened. So that was an incredible experience to go over to Chicago, meet their team there and experience the Chicago wind up watch fair as well, which was another crazy event. You hear about how Good. The American shows are how big they are and they are full on. So that was an experience altogether. So. Yeah. And you know, to. To our, to all of us surprised, we, we sold out in day one, which was mind blowing. So, yeah, it was. It feels like a dream, but it's. It's the slowly starting to pinch ourselves that it's all happened.
- [08:51]
A
Tell us about the process, then start to finish. You kind of quickly rush through that there because there was a lot to tell. But we do have maybe 50 minutes left of the show. So what is the idea? How does somebody like yourself, an artist, or maybe somebody's listening to the show and they want to get involved in this. I'm not going to take any food off your table because there's lots of scraps to go around. But if someone wants to take their own design, their own philosophy and incorporate into something, it could be because you've done lots of stuff, you've done little pay the clocks. You've done different materials, different things. It's not, not all watches, but say somebody does have a cool design or a good thought process, how did they get involved with a brand? How did it start for you? You know, who was the first person you reached out to and how did the conversation flow?
- [09:34]
B
It's. It's been. I mean, it kind of looks like an overnight success. It's been almost 10 years in the running. I think to start off with, you have to have a passion for whatever you do. So if, whether it's a style of artwork or if it's a concept you have or whatever it might be, I think you need to really develop that and hone that style in. I mean, I was working the creative industries for 17 years in various different hats. And before I kind of delved into painting my own watch, shoving it on Reddit and then that taking off from a collector's point of view. I did contact Christopher Ward at the early stages and there was no appetite for that because the whole concept and notion of, you know, not these type of novelties that I'm producing didn't really exist. I don't think there was an appetite for it. There wasn't a market for it. It was still immature as a concept to hand paint dials or to produce artist collaborations at that time. And I really wasn't a known artist, so there was no incentive for them to, you know, collaborate with somebody who is relatively unknown. But that then I suppose a wee bit of fire in the belly. Working with more collectors, building up that reputation from a collector's point of view. So it really is people who are buying the watches is where I found my. My, like my clan with so so to speak. And there was consistency, really. And through that consistency of producing and working with people, there became word of mouth. People started to show the watches off to their collectors through red bars and so forth, and that would slowly start to find their eyeballs of CEOs, people like yourself, podcasts, journalists, et cetera. And they then started taking interest because it was something new and different again. Most of the time when I. When I collaborate with a brand, it's. I see something in that brand or that watch that I personally can resonate with. I feel as if I can add something extra to the watch rather than just doing something for the sake of doing it. So behind every kind of artwork that I do and I produce, there is a narrative behind it, there is a story behind it, there's a purpose. It's not just, oh, here's a whole bunch of paint is splattered on a dialogue, which some people quite happily kind of think, that's what I do. You can see a range of things through the years that it's not as straightforward as that in terms of the concepts the art and I produce, but it really is trying to do something to elevate both brand and myself to produce something new rather than the sake of doing it. So for those who have that kind of desire or feel as if they can add something to the industry, it really is a case of putting yourself out there, producing work, shoving it online, getting the feedback good and bad, flowing with that, learning from it. Any negative feedback. Everybody hates negative feedback, but it's always good feedback because you can kind of go, well, if I've produced artwork and that's upsetting somebody, it's still artwork, it's still emotive. It's maybe not the emotions that you want, but it is producing emotions in somebody. And that kind of. Then you inquire was of what that person was expecting, what they like, what they don't like, and you can start to understand. Understand directions of people's interests, and that can also inform your own work and what you do next. But it is a case of just touching base with brands. I mean, there used to be seven degrees of separation where you could, you know, you could find yourself talking to anybody in the world through potentially seven connections. It's one, I would say these days through Instagram or through Facebook or all these things that you can just DM a brand and see if they respond. And I Think the ultimate solution to that is always be kind and polite. That's. That's ultimately the best way forward forward. Don't go in heavy handed. Don't go in as if you are a know all as if you are the best things in sliced bread that you feel as if you can do them solid in something that they've never done before. Be humble, be honest about your intentions, be honest as to why you want to work with them, what you feel that you can add to them as a brand or etc and be, be transparent with that because that will. You will trip up if you try and cloak it as something else. And as you say at the end of the day we are all as much as I love what I do, I still have a family that to look after. And there is financial incentives in everything we do. But that financial incentive needs to be driven on a passion. Otherwise for example the Christopher Ward that wouldn't have worked on just a normal Sealander or a Bel Canto or anything like that. So the idea of working on the skeleton watch was simple is because it's never been done before and they have the support and capabilities to do that working with the brand further for the last kind of almost year you kind of, you can then understand their passion and their, and their, their drivers of what they do. And they're incredibly enthusiastic brand the most loveliest people from a humanistic way as well that they just want everybody to succeed that they work with and that's so rewarding as well.
- [14:44]
A
Got to say, you have come on leaps and bounds since the first podcast and I remember we chatted offline about we've run through Ps and Qs with any new guest that comes on the show, how to do this, how to do that. And it's not because we are the masters and we know everything. It's just after 800 episodes, we've kind of honed the craft a little bit. We've got some shortcuts and some cheat sheets available to see the progression that you're handling yourself on a podcast where a lot of people, they stutter, they murmur, they repeat things, they build in catchphrases, they've got filler words. It is phenomenal to see such a change in such a short amount of time. So massive respect for what you've managed to do there. And I was captive. You finished your little story there and I'm sitting there waiting for the next part, not remembering that I'm the host of the show. So kudos to you and the guys at cw People do think more recently that sometimes they're in it for the money and they're not. We've heard people say that cash grab this, cash grab that. It ain't the case, because the whole story with Christopher Ward is it was an idea born after the gentleman at the helm had a previous company that they sold out of and made a lot of cash, multiple millions. We're talking 20 plus years ago now, 25 years ago, and they were on a boat and they thought, you know what? Watches. We love watches. This Internet thing's really kicking off. No one's really doing the online stuff with watches and branding. They did it pretty much before anybody else I can think of, and they've carried it on. They've gone through the highs and the lows. Then people like to think they're an overnight success. Like you said, they're not. The bel Canto was 20 years plus. So it takes a long, long time to become an overnight. And there have been some massive ups and some massive downs. Some things have sold extremely well, some things have taken a little bit longer. Maybe they have not sold out as quickly, so not everything they do is going to fly out the door immediately. But they don't get rid of those things because they know there's going to be a collector out there that does want something unique, something different. They're not just imagine Rolex, Daytonas and Submariners. That was what brands used to do back in the day. But you got to look at local, unlike anything else. Bel canto, unlike anything else. 12x. It's a little bit reminiscent of maybe an AP concept at a vastly reduced price point and probably far more easy to service and more accurate, allegedly. But now the release you put together, it was really good and we wanted to try and get something out a little bit quicker. But we had just done an episode a couple of months prior with Mike France about the new Sealanders and they took off. My missus does not like many Christopher Ward's, if any at all. And she had a look at the releases, she saw the pictures, mainly renders, and she was not that impressed. Then we went to the Glasgow Watch show, which you actually turned up with your wife, met your wife for the first time. It was phenomenal. Catching up with somebody I'd heard about, never met before, and Christopher Ward were exhibiting. They had the new range of Sea Landers. They had this color, that color. They had the pistachio sitting there and my wife wandered over, picked it up and went, I actually want this. And I could not Believe it, because she's pretty switched on when it comes to pictures, renders and video clips and realizing how it's going to equate to what will end up on the wrist. And she has had no clue how good this was going to be. So, yes, we managed to get a hold of one that again, it sold out. We had to wait for the second batch to order one up, get it across, get it on the wrist. You can't pry it off that wrist. That went to our latest excursion down in Blackpool. And apart from one day, I think one day she had something else on that we're probably allowed to talk about, but I'm going to keep my mouth shut because we've not released it on the show yet. But, yeah, Christopher Ward, no matter what people say about them, they do phenomenal things. But apart from the CW story, what else have you been up to?
- [18:14]
B
That is a very good question. So I have completed about half a dozen collaborations since the last time I probably spoke to you. And I don't really remember what we were talking about last time because it's been unfortunately too long, but I think it was maybe the Haltonrix was where we last kind of stood or kind of took off. And then we had Spinnaker with a Razzle Dazzle, which was a phenomenal success for both, both myself and Spinnaker. We weren't expecting us to do as well as a dan and that sold out extremely well.
- [18:44]
A
So tell me about that one. Sure.
- [18:46]
B
So the Razzle Dazzle was inspired by the World War I and World War II distorted camouflage that they used to paint on naval vessels. It's not necessarily a camouflage, it's more of a distortion effect that they're wanting to portray to those who are viewing it. So you don't know whether or not. I think it was mainly used to confuse submarines because you couldn't tell if it was coming left, right, forward or backwards because of the diagonal patternage over the vessel. So that was done on a flooze 40 where we made a full Lume dial. I then painted the Razzle Dazzle black camouflage effect with a flip paint. So depending on which light you look at it, the paint will go from a very dark purple to almost a petrol greeny blue. And then when you. You put that under a black light that glows like crazy. The bezel as well is done in the same effect. The pattern is also fixed, so you can't necessarily change that pattern. But every single dial had a different orientation and patinage of the Razzle Dazzle effect. So everybody got a one of one. Effectively. That was a huge number of pieces. I think we did 500 in total. And that was, you know, a lovely price of about 400. The bezel being one lume color and the dial being a different lume color in the hands and the lume dots being a third lume color. So, yeah, you can see the inspiration behind that. Obviously, Spinnaker is all about the sea and this was a nice way to create this confusing idea on the dial. However, I think if anybody who has one or anybody seen it has always talked about how legible these were and that was the important thing to me. He's very legible.
- [20:29]
A
Where do you get, get your inspiration from? Yes, if we take it back to the most basic level. And I have heard persons say this in the past and I've said to you, oh, the dial artist, he just kind of flicks a paintbrush at things and calls it a day. That is not the case. That is not the case at all. It's very difficult to flick paint at things and make it look good. Trust me, I know these things. But where does inspiration come from? Because that ain't flicking paint. That is something that is completely different.
- [20:53]
B
So as I say, the. The whole idea behind what I do is to try and add something to the brand. So obviously Spinnaker is a nautical based brand. They've done obviously great work with someone who we've spoken before with Romaric from second and his concepts are fantastic, where they do more ghostings, more fun things. I wanted to keep the very much the theme of nautical in it and that's where I was sitting one day, cruising through ideas, looking everything from. I think most people get ideas from everything but watches because otherwise you just start to replicate and copy the same ideas. I was watching Top Gear and they were doing, doing a car concept reveal and it was that typical black and white patternage all over the cars that then inspired me that I reminded myself of obvious. Ships used to have that concept as well. And then lo and behold, that tied in nicely with the idea of it being a vintage inspired camouflage. Not too sure they still use that today. I don't think there's a benefit or purpose of that. I've seen one or two type 4045s with that, but I think it is more decorative. Correct me if I'm wrong, there's going to be somebody in the comments that's going to completely pull me apart for that. But it very much is from that era and it was more A case of, well, okay, if I can paint a black and white pattern on a watch, what's the point? It's not going to be anything special. And then I wanted to elevate that further by including the Lume dial, which again, Spinnaker has the capabilities of doing all that, that, that stuff. We were able to make a full new bezel as well. So it's a loom bezel. Following on from that, we were able to, I was able to kind of complement all those added, you know, niceties with that kind of chromatic paint. So the paint changes color with the light intensity. And it's just when you, you know, naturally, when you know to see a chrome paint, it works better on a curved surface because the light will hit at different angles and so forth. So. But when you think about when you do a wrist roll, you are rotating your wrist through the light, so you are rotating the wrist and as you see it, you'll see that shift of color go across the dial quite nicely. And then with the bezel, sorry, not bezel, the actual kind of box crystal around the edges that displaces the light differently. So you kind of get this purple hue around the edge of the box glass and then the petrol blue in the middle. So it kind of cascades this lovely kind of deep blue to green, blue to purple color pattern. And I thought that was just nice just to have something a wee bit more modern to something that's not in a vintage past.
- [23:26]
A
And how often do you hit the mark first time or do you iterate come up with designs, prototype them and then go, maybe not so much, we'll move in this direction.
- [23:36]
B
It's a hit and miss. Unfortunately, there's been. The Spinnaker was relatively straightforward. It is a case of presenting the concept. Spinnaker is very good at coming up with lots of digital renders and we're able to visualize that digitally through their team, see what it looks like. However, that doesn't really translate when you have the metal in hand. So they were able to send a whole bunch of dials. Say, take these experiments, see what you come up with and let's go from there. Luckily, maybe that's through experience, I was able to kind of get it right first time. But the difficulty that I, I kind of face is that when you do prototypes, you can get it right on a batch of five, send them back, everybody's happy, fantastic. But then the difficult part comes when you have to take that five and expand that to 500 and keeping that consistency and the enthusiasm. And it sounds a really daft thing to say, keeping the enthusiasm, but once you get past $50 of doing the same thing, you, you, your mind starts to wander. You start to doubt yourself. It's maybe the creative process where you go through these different phases and elements of. Am I doing this right? Does it look right? It looks crap. Nobody's going to buy this. It looks stupid. I should have gone down. So you go through this process of doubt and criticism when you go through a project of that volume because you see it all the time. The studio is as littered with these 30 millimeter discs of razzle dazzle camouflage everywhere. And you kind of, you're overwhelmed by it sometimes. So you do go through this element of doubt. And it's a case of just driving through that and pushing through, but without letting up that the quality of what you're doing. Because if you do the first 10 perfectly, then the next 10 badly guaranteed that 10 that are slightly dodgy are going to land on the wrist of somebody who owns several loupes and likes to look through the watch with a loupe. So you've got to ensure that I have this idea in my mind that if I had a 3.5x loupe in my hand, does the dial look, look as good through that with my naked eye. And if I'm happy with that, then I'm happy that that is meeting the expectations that somebody who's going to wear the watch or a collector is wanting to see. And there was a lot of failure. I think I've got a bag of about 100, maybe 200 razzle dazzle dials that just didn't hit the mark. It's a complicated process to apply that paint on. There's about seven or eight different layers of paint to build that up, even though it looks ultra thin, because the luminous compound absorbs paint. Crazy. It's like a sponge. So you've got to apply it very, very delicately over several processes and very heat treatments and so forth to get that right. So again, something that looks relatively straightforward, it's quite complicated. And again, that's a step that I didn't encounter before. And it had to be a learned process. But you want to improve and progress yourself. And you figure it out.
- [26:28]
A
And have you worked with any compounds or materials that maybe you thought, thought, this will be a breeze, this will be a walk in the park. Then you get a hold of it and realize what about bitten off here?
- [26:37]
B
The lepe stuff was very much that moment that has to be done with a ceramic based lacquering system because it's going to be touched and handled all the time. So it can't be done with normal paints or enamel paints or anything like that of acrylics. Whatever paint you can think of, you can't do it because the. The watchmakers themselves have to clean this part. So they're using, you know, high acetone level chemicals, things that like to strip paint off because they have to decrease parts. So there is the ceramic coatings that we have to put on top of that. That stuff is highly volatile. It is not the most pleasant stuff to work with. It's unbelievably expensive, but the results are incredible. So it's not something that I like to do. You know, if I had to go back in time, it's not that I would. I wouldn't progress, you wouldn't want to do the project, but I would be investing far more an earlier stage in the right equipment because I've gone through, you know, I think I almost throw away a spray gun every, every second time I use it with that stuff because it just destroys spray guns.
- [27:42]
A
The reason I ask is we've heard tales in the past. More recently it was people using malachite, which has come back into vogue. And the stories from yesteryear was that people died working with malachite because cutting the stone, the dust that comes off it, it is extremely, extremely hazardous to human health. Gets in the lungs, doesn't really leave, causes all kinds of problems. The guys at Moza were telling us about the first time that they used Vantablack. Not the cheap replication of it, the actual OG Vantablack. And they made a dial and they'd heard it was really difficult to work with, but they made a dial and it was easy, worked fine. All the guys in the lab were like, yeah, this is a walk in the park. No problem at all. They went home at night, they came in the next day. And I am paraphrasing, but they came in the next day and the dial just looked like dog shit. They couldn't understand what happened. And when they then looked under a microscope and they thought about it logically, the way that Vantablack work is it's not a pigment, it's like valleys. It's almost nanotube valleys where the light can't work its way down. Think of a deeply saturated forest where all the trees are packed so tightly together the sunlight can't go down. So when you're down there, it's dark all the time. That's how this works. But. But as soon as you apply hands, opinion or air markers to that dial, then what happens is those strands at the microcosmic level, the tiny, tiny micron level, they start to break away and fall down. So over the course of the day and the night that the engineers went home, all the parts of the vantablack had collapsed into the dial itself, like sands of time, just at a very macro level. So then they had to change up. The way they were doing things. It wasn't quite as easy as the first thought. And that was a story that stuck in my mind because it just goes to show that we're working on such a large level with cars. I talk to engineers and mechanics when it comes to cars, and they're like, oh, it's too difficult. You know, the tolerances of the piston, the liners, the piston rings, blah, blah, blah. And then you speak to somebody that works in a bus or a truck, and everything's bigger and it's a little bit easier. Then you speak to somebody that works on a watch, or you get the opportunity, if you ever get the opportunity to do this, try it out. Somebody says to you, hey, we've got a movement here. Why don't you sit down at the desk? We'll give you the tweezers, we'll give you the loop, we'll give you the gloves. Go and try and put that screw in that movement. And you think, yeah, I've seen this on YouTube. It'll be about that size. It isn't that size. It's about a million times smaller than that size. It's half a midges ball here or in Australia. I think the term is half a bee's D. So, yeah, it's insane to see how some of these things that we look at on a dial and go, yeah, that's just. That's super easy. Anybody can do that. That not the case at all. Okay, so we've covered Spinnaker, we've covered Leppe, we've covered the latest Christopher Ward. How was life over in Chicago? What did you get up to over there?
- [30:21]
B
So Chicago was incredible.
- [30:23]
A
Have you been before?
- [30:25]
B
I've never been to Chicago before, so it's one of those cities that I don't think is on maybe everybody's radar to go to if they were traveling to the US Unless it was maybe see a basketball game. But it's a beautiful country. I was told the third biggest city in the US after New York and la. So. Could be wrong. But that's why I was told several Times that they're the third biggest city. And it is a huge city. It's incredibly big. The people are lovely and friendly and the weather was glorious. So there's nothing to complain about. I landed on my feet, as they say. But the whole point of that trip was to launch the project with Christopher Ward in a new showroom. I arrived a few days earlier than the rest of the UK team as I was doing a piece of artwork so you may be seen on on social media. I created the Christopher Ward logo on colored spray caps. I hand painted sink another 1000 odd spray caps. I painted and kind of set them up and built this huge big canvas of the CRISPR Ward logo that now sits in their showroom, which is quite a privilege. And then we launched on a private evening on Thursday and then officially launched the project at the Chicago Wind Up Fair on Friday.
- [31:34]
A
So what's it like going to the Wind Up Fair? Not like Dave, because he tells the story from his viewpoint, which behind the desk, punters come up, they say, tell me about Raj, because we don't really know much about it. It's a bit of a hidden gem. He tells the same story 400 times over the course of a day. You not really being that you're kind of in between the collector, the enthusiast and the industry veteran. What's it like for you going around these big shows?
- [31:57]
B
Total imposter syndrome is a huge imposter syndrome, Especially the Christopher Ward event. Just because you maybe have met me, I hopefully don't come across with a big ego or feel as if I have any kind of status or carry this air of arrogance. But they are. They. They really laid on the whole show for me and I turned up at the event and their whole booth was just littered with my artwork. It really was like quite overwhelming initially that if you've seen the images, it's just close up macro shots of the Zander, the whole booth, everything was very much focused on that.
- [32:36]
A
Did people get the idea that Xander is the shortened form of your name or did they not have a clue?
- [32:41]
B
I don't think they had a clue. So that was Mike France that came up with that one. When I went down to Maidenhead, we were all kind of sitting around and we were still undecided about the name. And we had a couple of things. I think I had chaos or crazy or something like that. And then Mike just came and goes, I've got it. Just call it Lysander.
- [32:57]
A
Is that because it's a 12x?
- [32:58]
B
I think it was the combination of x and 12 and shortening. All these kind of things. It's a very good play in words. All credits to a credit cues. That was Mike France idea. I initially was a bit hesitant, I suppose, just because maybe that's the imposter syndrome kicking. I'm thinking, why would you call it after me? Like. Like that sounds quite. For me, it sounded quite egotistical. That's your call. Or watch after. After my surname. But everybody loved it. I went with it. And it's. It's a perfect name, to be honest. So I can't. I can't talk any badly of it, but it was. I'm glad I didn't come up with a name name so I didn't look like I was just full of myself. But yeah, it was the name fitted. It was. It was lovely to see how that was then showcased. And as you say, from a show point of view, I was slightly off to the. The. If you look. If you look to the booth, I was off to the right. From my point of view, I was off to the left of the booth on the stand painting a wall clock, which was again in the Christopher Ward show in Chicago. And it was a great opportunity because there was a. People were confused. Lots of people never heard of me, which was very humbling and very good to know that they still scale. Fantastic. And then the other side was people knew who I was and wanted to come say hello. So you've been to lots of shows around the world and you start to see the same faces, you see the same people who collect watches. So it's lovely to catch up with those people. And then they bring their friends along as well and that starts to create lots of conversation. Two people bought the watches. Lovely to talk to them in terms of like, why did they buy them, what was it about it and so forth.
- [34:37]
A
What did they tell you? What was the reasoning?
- [34:39]
B
They just fell in love with the colors. They couldn't believe how colorful it was. It brought a smile to the face. They've never seen anything like it before. Christopher Ward in the US is huge. It's unbelievably big. So they have a big following as well. And that translates to people wanting to just see what they're up to, to and when they see something new. And the sales team behind Christopher Ward, who are incredible, incredible. So we had everybody from the Dallas team, the New York team and obviously the Chicago team. We had Living Jan from. And Sarah as well from the UK come over. They just was so easy just to point. Everybody, my dear, that's the guy who painted it, which they, you know, it's lovely to have that kind of full circle feeling that you're part of a team for the day and that then allowed me and there was no pressure on me. It's like paint, do what you want, stay around. And it was lovely to then put the paintbrush down, walk away and walk around the event and see what everybody's doing. So go say hello to Dave. Lots of brands I've never seen before. Catch them with old friends like Awake. Then you had Ren as well. You formex all these wonderful people that were just inundated with customers all the time. It never stopped. So it's great to see from that opportunity of behind the desk and then coming around the desk and having that kind of recce situation. And I couldn't believe that went on for three days solid, which was insane.
- [36:07]
A
Well, as a new veteran of the show circuit, if people are looking to go and we're trying to entice everybody to do this because we say it all the time, going to an event, going to a show, trying a watch on you've had your eye on or walking around like you say, and discovering new brand, we do this, we think we're up to speed on stuff. 200, 300 emails a day from new brands, existing brands. We went to the watch at fair down near Birmingham and I'm wandering around going, I have no idea who these guys are. Look at what they're producing. How come we've not seen this on Instagram? Nobody's told us about it. We've had no emails about it. So if you get the opportunity, go to a local watch event. Don't feel out of place. I did when I went to my first couple, first couple of red bars. Am I worthy? Imposter syndrome. Do I belong here? Everybody belongs. If you're listening to this kind of podcast, you've searched out something to do with watches, you have invested your time. Go and invest your time at an event. You will not look back. You will love it. No one has ever come back to me and said I went to an event. It was a bad idea. It's always a good idea. The only bad thing is your wife might find out you bought another watch. But if you were to give handy hints for people that were going along, maybe it's their first time, what would you say they should do?
- [37:11]
B
Do show interest in whoever you speak to or whoever, whatever, what she you look at. I that was the biggest advice I can give to the people behind the desk. Have put an awful lot of effort and passion to, to, to stand where they are that day, both financially. But I think there's a lot of commitment, some, for most people, it's not financial that they do this. It's a passion. And obviously it costs money to stand there. But to, to just speak to the them, find out why they made this watch, what is their concept, why they doing what they're doing, that, that resonates an awful lot with the people who are presenting the watches to you. Whether you 100% like the watch or not, I think that builds that community and that, that, that is what the community is. It's about sharing and doing something new and showing your interests. And I think that people appreciate that more than you think. It's easy to kind of walk past, past these events or past a stand, take a quick glance over. Maybe you're not necessarily heard the brand before or seen the watches at a glance and just kind of already write them off, stop, take them in it. You might find something more about that person and what they're doing. But most often or not, most people in the industry know each other. And if they, if you don't satisfy, if they, if their watches don't satisfy your desires, they are more than happy to say, you should go speak to so and so or go speak to Jim or go speak to Dave, or go speak to whoever say so and so sent you along and they'll sort you out. And I think that that connection and that that willingness to spend time, five minutes speaking to someone is worth its weight in gold for the day. And you will get a far more fulfilled experience. And that means that the next show that you go to, people recognize you, you have more of a kinship. And then that's when these secret events start to pop up in your calendars that you might be invited to the. Might be invited to dinner, you might be invited to whatever it might be. And before you know it, you find yourself in this, you know, amazing group of people not talking about watches anymore, talking about life, talking about all things that are important and then sharing your passion through watches, through life events. So I think there's a huge friendship element that comes along with what we do. And all that takes is a conversation. So please, if you do go to these events, just take five minutes to speak to that person who doesn't have anybody around their desk. And you, you might find that they are some of the nicest people and can share and impart wisdom onto you in a different way.
- [39:43]
A
You touched on a lot of key points there. I'll try and recollect them in order. So people that are at watch events, it's a brand maybe you've not heard of before, they're fledgling, they've just started, they maybe only have prototypes. Sometimes people turn up to watch events to gauge interest, they've got an idea. But before they invest blood, sweat, tears and a mortgage payment into actually creating a watch and getting prototypes done, they want to fathom is it worthwhile or are they, like you say, sitting in a room going, is anyone going to buy these things? There is a financial incentive for some brands to do things. There is a very, I don't know, humble grounding effect with other brands where somebody just wants to get their design out there. They've loved watches, they've designed their own one, they want to share that passion and the only way they can think of and that is to create something. And the amount of cost that goes in, as I mentioned, it's not just the money, it's the time. And to go to an event when we talk to, we talk to brands all the time about different things and we entice them to come to events and they tell us a story and I know exist to run events myself, it's not so much the fact that it will cost a brand $1,000, $5,000, $20,000 depending on the size of the event and the pitch that they've got, it's the logistics. They've got to take time off either working with the watch brand that they've created, their day job, time away from their wife and kids, which some people might like, but some people might not like. Then you've got the travel expenses, then they've got to, it's not just them and their overnight bag. They have got the watches, the banners, the pop ups, the coverings, all the materials that go with this kind of thing. Then they've got the airfare and the hotels, then the food. So it is multiple thousands, tens of thousands for even independent creators to go across from the UK to Chicago to Geneva. It's a lot of money invested. So ask the questions because they're putting their money where their mouth is really are to come across and show you new watches. And there's been many times I've wandered over to a brand not because I like the watch, but because I don't like the watch. And I've actually said to them, why did you do this? And when I start to get the processes flowing out of their mouth and they're telling me why they went this way instead of that way. It begins to make sense. And even if I still don't like it, the end of it, and the story works out great. I've got respect for why they did it. And we talk about watches in the show. We recorded a show earlier today, a normal Thursday show, and there was a couple of watches that there I don't like. I would never buy, don't like the look of, but I respect the fact I've been made and I respect the fact that other people have got different opinions than me. Other people will love it, it will sell out, no problem at all. So that is something to bear in mind. And the last point I'll make here is this is a hobby, this is a community, and this is an industry like no other. Tell me anything that you're into as a hobbyist. You're listening to a podcast. You obviously like what you hear. You're into watches quite deeply. Are you into music? Could you go to a convention and ask an artist, a songwriter, or somebody that works in the record industry? How does this work? How does that work? Tell me your story. If you're into football, is there a place you can go, you can talk to footballers, spend 5, 10 minutes free of charge. You're not getting an autograph or a photo where it costs you 100 bucks. There is nothing like the watch community going to watch events where you can meet the designer, the founder, the creator, and he's also the marketing guy, the sales guy, and the guy that packs the watches that end up getting couriered to your front door. So, yeah, I just. I love this hobby. And every time I speak to somebody like yourself, a collector, I get an email. It just buzzes me up and it's never ended. I've been in this now for nine years. The podcast is 800 episodes long. And I don't wake up and think, oh, my God, I've got to turn the microphone on, turn the cameras on, turn the lights on, press record, upload a podcast. Every single time, I'm enthused and enthused because the person I'm speaking to is just as passionate as me. And it's like, I don't know, static electricity just builds. And each person charges me up and then I charge the next person up and they charge me up. And it's just an ongoing circle of life that is phenomenal. So, anyway, I've talked too much. What else have you been up to?
- [43:32]
B
Just for one more point, I think it's important to know that people have paid A lot of money not to stand there, not to talk to anybody. They've paid a lot of money so you can talk to them. So talk to them. They're not standing there hoping for a silent day. So please, please talk to these people. It will make their day. Trust me, it will make their day if somebody talks to them. What else have been up to? So back to the earlier point of things that were difficult to do. Sartori Billard was another collaboration they did just before the CRISPR ward. So that was for the Fourth of July. That was their 250 years celebrating America's independence. That was again working on their SB10 where they have the external dial which is tactile. So if anybody's played or asked the saltori bird, their John Power, there's like the. I don't want to disrespect the French and not say it properly, but there's an element of the dial that sits on top where you can touch it with your fingerprint and it's lovely. It's very tactile. Not really done that much in the watch industry before. We worked with Red 5 watches in the US. Ron is a lovely man who's a whiz at CNC and laser engraving. And we came up with this star spangled flag inspired dials. That was so, you know, Ron creates on CNC machines sent to me. I then hand patinaed the dials. So forced a copper patina so it looked like the Statue of Liberty.
- [44:53]
A
How did you do that?
- [44:54]
B
So you can force copper patinas through solutions. It's a natural oxidization process just sped up. So you apply a salt solution to a dial. There's colorants in that and that then helps change the color of the dial to this Tiffany. You can get greens, you can get blues. You can do a combination. Again, that was several experiments to get that right. And then once that's done, a lacquer has to be put on top. The beauty of that project, I feel is that even though there is a dial that has been fully patinaed and it looks apart through touch, you will eventually remove that protective lacquer through wear and tear through just rubbing it away, which will then remove the copper oxidization layer and re expose the copper through rubbing one off.
- [45:43]
A
Off.
- [45:43]
B
You're rubbing one off on your wrist. So once you've done that and you've taken it right back to the bare essentials using.
- [45:54]
A
Did you say a salty liquid earlier?
- [45:57]
B
Through a salty liquid solution. If you're very aggressive with the rubbish, you will get back to the natural copper. And if you let that sit for a while and stop playing with your watch, it will start to reoxidize. So you will reintroduce that oxidization again. So you'll kind of create your own patinage through that process. So it depends on how much you. You rub your dial, depends on how quick that looks and how unique yours looks compared to the next person's. You know, everybody's is different. So that was a great, a great project. Early in the year in went to Hands on Horology, which is another show, so we say another UK show, which is a fantastic opportunity to see so many independent brands like Saltori Balad. We had Grandeur from the usa, the usual suspects from the UK and Europe, which is great to see. And at that event, I had the opportunity to do some live paintings of people who bought VIP tickets, which was insane. So they had 15 minutes. Insane in a good way. Very much a good way. So people had 15 minutes where they basically brands gave me a bunch of dials from Sartori Billard donated some dials. Studio Underdog donated a bunch of dials. But risk. The names escape me. I do apologize for that, but it's been a while. But people, I had those laid out on a table. People will come up, say, do this Nadal. And within 15 minutes. I did my best to create that concept, Nadal, as a fun way and in the hope that, you know, speaking to the brands who came up to see how things are going, the people were there and they put them under the pressure of like, well, would you allow me to fit this to my watch? And you can see some hesitation in some brands and they're like, oh, yeah, okay, fine. So it was good that, you know, they, you know, customers put the pressure on them that they were allowing them to put them into the watch. So it was a great opportunity just to have fun, spend a day painting, chatting to customers, chatting to collectors as well. As for that event, two watches were produced for two charities. One was a food relocation charity that gave. It's called the Felix Project. Any wasted food was then redistributed to homeless people and to charities to feed people instead of just throwing it in a bin. And the other, that was an rze. So we did a Harvard Perfect plate on a dial, and the other one was for Seltan and that was for the Mind charity, and that was the hands of David and God touching from Michelangelos the Creator. So again, two watches were auctioned off a charity in the Day. And those proceeds went to those charities, which was fantastic. So good to give back, as you say. Apart from that, I need to look through my own notes as to what I've been up to recently.
- [48:39]
A
Well, while you look through your notes to figure out what the f you've been doing, what is the most adventurous thing that you have got in your mind that you could work with? I'm thinking of crazy materials, and there are some that are very safe to use, and there are others we mentioned earlier that aren't. What thing would you like to play with that's maybe a little bit dangerous?
- [48:57]
B
Oh, I think it would be more of a process of doing techniques that are dangerous than materials. So I'd love to take some titanium, and obviously, Ming did this recently where they burnt titanium and did that. I would love to kind of experiment that process, but do it in an artistic way where we could add materials on top of that that will disrupt that heating process. So if you add salts or if you add, you know, trees or leaves or whatever, anything that will then change the alteration of how that burn process works. You know, if you put certain materials and other materials, they would absorb the heat, so you get a different patternage. I would love to do stuff like that. I'd love to experiment with alternative processes. So instead of painting, could you. What would the effect be if you put that dial or threw it down a mountain or threw it from an aircraft? And what would it look like if that went through next to a grenade or this, you know, just to see, you know, what does that look like? And how can you glean concepts from that? It's kind of like a reverse, you know, not a reverse, but more of a pro evolution of William Wood, where they're taking parts from something else and make them to dials. You know, it's like, how could you. How could we do something that's not the norm? You know? And I think that'd be really cool. Used materials that aren't associated with. With watches, so to speak. You know, taking parts from cars and turn them to watches or leather belts. There's a guy. I can't remember his name on Instagram, and he's got this thing called Willett dial, and he takes the most random objects, and he converts them into watch dials. He's a very, very creative person, and his watches look amazing. Like, you take a golf ball and cut the golf ball up, flat it down, and turn it into a watch dial. So it's things like that that really inspire me.
- [50:46]
A
Have you tried to do anything like that and then it's failed mission all the time. What is your biggest failure then? What is the craziest idea you've had? You thought it might work, then you tried it and it didn't.
- [50:57]
B
Laser engraving. I'm useless at laser engraving. I don't know what it is with me and computers and lasers. I'd love to be able to do like a laser engraved guilloche dial, which is something that you can do. But for me, I just create a lot of smoke and a lot of fire.
- [51:12]
A
Sounds like my wife cooking.
- [51:14]
B
I'm worn, but I'm war alone not to do that again. So, yeah, I think there's so much I love to do. There's just unfortunately not a lot of time to do it. So the ideas and concepts that I do start playing around with it more often than not based on a collaboration where there is obviously restrictions with what you can do. But you have those ideas in your back mind so you keep them in the book. You write down processes and for anybody that's learning about anything, it's like cool working. Whatever you do, write it down because chances are you're going to revisit that idea for something else and you're going to forget the ingredients to how you achieved it. So how stupid it looks, how daft it looks at this stage, you might find that, that recipe from that page and 20 pages later, if you combine those two together, it works perfectly. So always keep a record of what you do and that will always stand in good stead. And that kind of, I suppose that came down to the saltori billard. That was an evolution of working on that Patina racing car for Lepp, you know, so again, it's taking those ideas from one and pulling them into another. I was speaking to another guy in Chicago who does a lot of, you know, painted sneakers. So maybe more, even though I have done it in the past, maybe more painted leather work might be something fun to do and explore that a wee bit further. There's lots of things that you can kind of get up to in the watch industry to kind of put your mark on things. But yeah, there's a lot going on.
- [52:40]
A
Okay, final thoughts, because we're at the end of the show and this is the episode where I've had lots of ideas, which is kind of strange for me. Usually I just follow the person that's on the show and take their lead. But what is the craziest thing that you've either done or you haven't done that a brand has Approached you. Not an idea you've come up with yourself in the shower, but a brand has said it would be fantastic if we did. Blah, blah, blah.
- [53:01]
B
That's a good question. Very good question.
- [53:03]
A
Like, if Bremont came to you and said, we want to put a bit of Stephen Hawking's wheelchair on the watch,
- [53:07]
B
it'd be really, really great. You put me on the spot with this one. I suppose it's not necessarily. I mean, watch brands. I think watch brands have some watch brands or one or two watch brands have a misconception about my abilities and skills. Maybe that's a good thing. I think they think I can do magic. So there's been one or two brands that have approached before that wanting script and writing all over a dial, like, top to bottom. Very, very fine script. And it was Lord of the Rings, though. No, it was like a typewriter. It was precise. And I was like, I can't hand paint that. That's impossible to do, you know. Or if it's not impossible to do, one dial's gonna take me, you know, an age to do it. And they're wanting several hundred of these. And it's one of those processes that I'm thinking of, like, why would you ask me to do that? Why would you hand paint? Why don't you pad print it or something? So it's very odd requests from brands. And I suppose that comes down to it was a very big brand, and you're kind of like, why have they not thought of that internally? So I'm not too sure if it was a case of just working with me or somebody else to produce this. And I think maybe there was this element of if this fails, I take the heat from it rather than they take the heat from it. So, yeah, there's a few that I think maybe underestimate my skill set or overestimate my skill set that I could.
- [54:33]
A
Can't you reason I ask that is apart from the joke I made about Bremont there, the watch that stuck in my mind is that. O. I wouldn't have done that myself was when Romain Jerome took parts of the Titanic and put it in a watch. And I thought some people might have died.
- [54:47]
B
Yeah, Yeah, I. I'm not aware of that one. But, yeah, that's a bit. That's a bit close to. Close to home in terms of. For some people, I think, especially, you know. Yeah, I think. I don't know what the intent.
- [55:00]
A
We like to end the shows on a positive, high note, you know what I mean?
- [55:03]
B
I Was gonna say it's like, you know, a very strange thing to put on a dial.
- [55:08]
A
Well, always liking to finish on a high on this episode of the show. Wow. Okay. Well, I kind of. Everything was going so well. You knew it was gonna fall at the last hurdle. So, yes, we managed to do that. Right then I had negative thoughts. I need to go back to my therapist. But no, it's always a pleasure having you on the show. I think we've only been off maybe twice or three times in total. I remember I dragged you and Black Badger on. I was trying to get you both to co mingle and you came up with some great ideas. It was good having two minds working on stuff, but bring you on your own to talk about what has happened in the recent past, where you've been traveling to, what you've been up to, and then just quizzing you on various things. Because I'd love to say we talk all the time because you're local, but we don't because you're doing a thousand collabs a year. We're doing 100 plus episodes a year. Year. We wave at each other at different parts across the globe. But to bring you on and just sit down for an hour and just chew the fat, talk about this, that, and the other, see where the road takes us conversational wise. It's always a pleasure. So hopefully I will catch up with you in real life. You come to Geneva, watch days, anything like that.
- [56:09]
B
Hopefully. I've got no plans, but I would love to. I'd love to come and do that. It's trying to toss that up with everything else. Or toss it up. No, that's a bad. That's a bad phrase, isn't it? It's trying to weigh up everything. Just trying to lay up everything. But even if you're thinking about, like,
- [56:25]
A
should we just end the show right now?
- [56:26]
B
Oh, God. But even if you think about, like, we say, like, we don't speak. We're in a WhatsApp group about meeting up for dinners all the time. And like, I never am able to meet up with you guys for dinner. It's like never. It's like, it's like I'm just. I'm. That I'm that weird person in the corner. Just doesn't, like, respond to messages. That's me.
- [56:42]
A
Hey, I do it with the emails. That is the end of a podcast. That is the end of an episode. Thank you so much for joining us. If you want to tell people where they can go and check things out, obviously it's in the show notes. But give us the Instagram and the web address.
- [56:53]
B
The handles hedialartist and it's thedialartist.com There we go.
- [56:57]
A
Perfect. Well, listen, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for listening and watching as well. If you've got any suggestions of people you'd like us to bring onto the podcast. Can't guarantee it. Some people are really good at making watches. Some people are really good at writing blogs and journals and things like that. Throw a microphone in front of them sometimes they are not adaptable skill sets. We said this before, somebody being a great TV presenter, they can read the news, but they can't actually looks the same, but it is different. But drop us an email infocottagewatches.co.uk and we'll see what we can put together for you. So, Chris, thank you so much and thank you for joining us today.
- [57:32]
B
Thank you. Goodbye, Sam.