Catching The Codfather | 2. I Hope Those People Sink

Summary

The Big Dig Presents: Catching The Codfather

Episode 2: I Hope Those People Sink (February 18, 2026)

Host: Ian Coss
Produced by: GBH News

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Overview

This gripping episode of Catching The Codfather dives into the dramatic labor battles and policy decisions that shaped New Bedford’s fishing industry and set the stage for Carlos “The Codfather” Rafael’s rise. Through personal recollections and rich archival detail, host Ian Coss explores the collapse of longstanding norms, the infamous fisherman’s strike of the 1980s, and the systems—economic, political, and personal—that Rafael would learn to exploit. The episode is a microcosm of the high-stakes, often brutal world where food, livelihood, and government collide.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The New Bedford Fish Auction – An Arena of Ruthlessness

• The Unique Auction Structure: In the early 1980s, New Bedford’s fish auction was a chaotic, numbers-driven scene where all species from all boats were bid on simultaneously, creating a high-stakes game of strategy.
  • Carlos Rafael credits his mathematical skill ("My godfather...banged my head on a blackboard...Today I got nothing but the thank 'em for making me that good with numbers." – 02:48)
  • Ian Coss explains Rafael’s tactics – reading competitor’s eyes, leveraging the auction’s convoluted rules to outbid or sabotage rivals (03:13–05:02).
• Memorable Quote:
  • "I could have not run anyone on that auction. I could bid him eight, nine bulls at a time by doing the metal. And my brain, like a computer, couldn't even do a deadfast." – Carlos Rafael (03:40)

2. Heritage, Identity, and the Loss of George’s Bank

• Rodney Avila, a fourth generation fisherman, describes fishing’s central role in his family identity and the profound sense of betrayal when historic fishing grounds were lost as a result of international boundary disputes.
  • "I didn't hate a lot of people, but I wasn't happy with our government really. Only because I figured they just threw the fishing industry away to Canada." – Rodney Avila (17:57)
• The Hague Line Ruling:
  • 1984’s international court decision split Georges Bank, devastating New Bedford's fleet and slashing revenues by up to 50%.
  • "We lost the best yellowtailing, we lost the best scalloping, we lost the best swordfish grounds. I would say we lost a good 40 to 50% of our revenue." – Rodney Avila (17:38)

3. Mounting Pressure: Economic Crisis and the Brewing Strike

• With lost fishing grounds and rising costs, a previously prosperous industry spiraled into crisis.
• John Bullard (then-mayor):
  • "So when you shrink the piece, when you overfish the resource, it puts everybody under strain...And at some point, it's going to blow." (20:03–20:35)
• The 1986 fishermen’s strike was triggered when boat owners demanded reducing the crew's share of catches from 58% to 50%, deepening tensions.

4. Union Power and Its Undoing

• Fishermen's union, once robust, enforced limits on catches and working conditions.
  • "If you didn't go by those regulations, you'd lose your crew to union boats." – Rodney Avila (26:02)
• The contentious leadership of Joe Paiva added volatility, and the strike quickly became fraught with violence, sabotage, and threats.
  • "It's a proud day...We are working people. We create with our hands...all we want is a fair shake." – Joe Paiva (29:52)

5. The Strike Escalates: Yellowbird Auction and Street Battles

• When negotiations stalled, fish dealers, excluded from the original city-run auction (run by the union), set up a private facility dubbed the Yellowbird Auction.
  • "The buyers were going to take control of the auction." – Harvey Mickelson (33:35)
• The Union responded with blockades, rocks were thrown, and violence escalated.
  • Carlos Rafael recalls barreling through picket lines in his car:
    "I saw the guy. They threw the rock. I went to him, I said, okay, which you date, I will not forget. And if you think you're going to scare me with a rock, it'll be the biggest mistake you ever made." (37:47)
  • Rafael began carrying a gun ("One of you steps in the front of my truck, I'm going to shoot you. And I mean it. Don't take this as a threat. This is a promise." – Carlos Rafael, 39:53)
• Fish dealers used creative—and sometimes risky—methods to evade strikers and get to the auction, including sneaking in via delivery vans (39:16).

6. Legal Maneuvers and the Weakness of Government Power

• Mayor Bullard tried to enforce a city ordinance requiring all fish sold at city piers to go through the public auction. But the judge who had written the ordinance himself declared it unconstitutional, leaving the law powerless.
  • "Judge Jacobs said, thanks for the call, Mayor. I know that ordinance very well, because before I was a judge, I was city solicitor. I actually wrote that ordinance. I said, no, Kidding...I know it's unconstitutional because I wrote it." (43:16)

7. Aftermath: The Undoing of the Union and Rise of the Codfather

• As boats began leaving the picket lines to fish in other ports or accept owner terms, the strike fizzled. Violence, slashed tires, and broken windows marked the fracturing of solidarity.
  • "It started as a trickle of boats leaving the harbor, then 10 all at once. Then another 10. One striking fisherman told the local paper, I hope those people sink." (49:27)
• By spring of 1986, the strike informally ended; the city-run auction never re-opened, and the union never recovered.
• Only two powers remained: the boat owners and the dealers—Carlos Rafael being both.
  • "Once again, and not for the last time, a crisis for the industry was an opportunity for Carlos." – Ian Coss (52:56)
  • "In days, I buy a quarter of a million pounds." – Carlos Rafael (53:04)
  • On his moniker: "'We don't have to start calling him the codfather.'...And the stupid shit stuck." – Carlos Rafael (53:27)

8. Legacy and The Role of Government

• The strike’s failure—despite the government’s attempt to intervene—deepened fishermen’s distrust of authority.
  • "Fishermen are anti government because fishermen are fiercely independent. That's why they go fishing." – John Bullard (50:57)
  • Recalling Reagan's famous line: “I think you all know that I've always felt the nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help." (51:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Carlos Rafael’s Auction Mastery:
  • “To deal in one of those auctions, you gotta be definitely good with numbers.” (02:32)
• On the Consequences of Policy:
  • “We lost everything... The best yellowtailing, scalloping, swordfish grounds.” – Rodney Avila (17:38)
• On Government Intervention:
  • “I said, judge, you're telling me you wrote an ordinance that you know is unconstitutional? Yes, I did. And so I'm going to throw that case out of court faster than you can just blink an eye at.” – John Bullard (43:44)
• Turning Crisis into Profit:
  • “Every time it's a crisis, that's when you make a lot of money.” – Carlos Rafael (38:36)
• On the Nature of Fishermen:
  • “Fishermen are anti government because fishermen are fiercely independent. That's why they go fishing.” – John Bullard (50:57)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening Auction Portrait: 01:03 – 05:39
• Generational Fishing Stories: 09:08 – 11:46
• Losing George’s Bank: 12:07 – 18:17
• Summarizing the Economic Squeeze: 19:32 – 20:45
• Beginnings of the Strike: 26:58 – 31:31
• Auction Shutdown & Dealer Tactics: 33:01 – 39:16
• Escalation, Violence, and Legal Fight: 39:53 – 43:44
• Collapse of the Strike and Union: 45:50 – 50:27
• Carlos Rafael’s Ascent: 52:56 – 53:49

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Tone and Narrative Style

The storytelling is vibrant and fast-paced, mixing tension, humor, and empathy. The speakers’ voices—especially Carlos Rafael and Rodney Avila—come through with authenticity, from wry bitterness to pride and stubbornness. Ian Coss’s narration balances journalistic clarity with a sense of the drama, making complicated systems vivid and personal.

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Conclusion

This episode lays bare the tangled systems and personalities behind New England’s historic fishing port—showing how loss, conflict, and government failure cleared the way for the dominance of figures like Carlos “The Codfather” Rafael. It’s a story of power vacuums, broken trust, and precarious survival, echoing far beyond the New Bedford docks.

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Transcript

[Ian Coss]

Support for catching the codfather comes from Rogers Fish Company, founded by Roger Berkowitz, offering an array of New England seafood and entrees shippable anywhere in the US [e-mail].

[Narrator/Announcer]

Museums are more than places we visit on a field trip across the country. Museums protect our shared history, care for wildlife and collections, strengthen local economies, support job training, and spark curiosity in people of all ages. Right now, you can help make sure museums stay strong for future generations. Museum Advocacy Day is a national moment when people contact Congress to ask for continued support for museums and the federal agencies that fund them. Learn how to take [e-mail] and tell your representatives that museums matter to education data, to communities, to the economy, and to our democracy.

[Ian Coss]

Every weekday morning at dawn, the harbor here in New Bedford, Massachusetts fills with returning fishing boats as skippers bring their catch to auction. For generations now, the port of New Bedford has been organized around a daily ritual, the moment when all the key players converge and everyone's economic fate is determined.

[John Bullard]

The fish auction 1032-1033-1034-1035 10.

[Ian Coss]

Back in the early 80s, the auction took place in a small city owned building right at the dock called the Wharfinger Building. It was so small that the fish dealers would stand shoulder to shoulder and the haze of cigarette smoke was thick enough to catch the morning light coming in the windows.

[Carlos Rafael]

Airman 25 and 35 at the front.

[Ian Coss]

Of the room there was a railing to hold back the crowd, and behind that a giant chalkboard divided into columns. It listed the catch from each boat, broken down by species. So many pounds of cod, so many pounds of yellowtail flounder, so many pounds of dabs and so on. But this was not anything like the kind of auction you might expect. It was much, much more confusing because instead of going down the list and auctioning off the species one by one, they would auction all the species at once on all the boats at once.

[Carlos Rafael]

To deal in one of those auctions, you gotta be definitely good with numbers.

[Ian Coss]

And if you want to know how Carlos Raphael really made a name for himself, how how he came to dominate this port, it all started here at.

[Carlos Rafael]

The auction, and I have nobody to thank but my godfather. He was my teacher back home and he banged my head on a blackboard. He says, I'm going to get this timetable through your skull. I would be pissed at that age. I said this son of a I hope you die. But today I got nothing but the Tankam for making me that good with numbers.

[John Bullard]

I mean he was just like lightning. Bang. Bang.

[Rodney Avila]

Bang, bang.

[Ian Coss]

Fisherman Bill Blount used to watch Carlos at the auction, and I'd tease him. Once in a while, he'd get mad at me.

[Carlos Rafael]

Shut up, Billy.

[Harvey Mickelson]

Shut up.

[John Bullard]

But he was brilliant.

[Ian Coss]

The fish auction began at 8am sharp, and it ended at 8:22. Exactly 22 minutes to bid on everything you could keep track of the dabs, the cod, the flounder, all of it.

[Carlos Rafael]

I could have not run anyone on that auction. I could bid him eight, nine bulls at a time by doing the metal. And my brain, like a computer, couldn't even do a deadfast.

[Ian Coss]

But the thing that made the auction so confusing and made Carlos so good at it was this final quirk in the rules. Whoever put in the last high bid on any individual species from a given boat got all the species from that boat. So even though you're bidding on the species, you're really bidding on the whole boat via the species. If you're feeling lost, don't sweat it. You don't really need to understand how this auction works. Just know that there is some interesting strategy to it. Like if Carlos could see the guy next to him really wanted the haddock, but that same boat had a big load of cod, he could screw the guy by bidding up the cod. Make the cod, like, huge money, make the flounders small. So now the competition would be forced to outbid Carlos on the cod just to get at that haddock they really wanted. That is, unless the competition gives up, in which case Carlos would be stuck with the overpriced cod, plus the haddock, plus whatever else was on the boat. That was the game.

[John Bullard]

I mean, it was really cool.

[Ian Coss]

It was fast, it was risky, it was ruthless. It was exactly the kind of business Carlos Raphael excelled at.

[Carlos Rafael]

You can read his eyes. You. You know exactly if he's shaking, if he's not shaking, if he's going to drop, if he's not going to drop. When you do it in person, you can tell.

[Ian Coss]

Was it a rush to be on the auction floor?

[Carlos Rafael]

Oh, yeah. 22 minutes. That was I to get there. I couldn't wait for the next day to see if I could even get better than the day before.

[Ian Coss]

By the 1980s, when Carlos came on the scene, this whole system had been in place for decades. The fish dealers bought their fish from the boat owners. The boat owners paid their captains and crews. The crews risked their lives to go out and catch the fish. Everything was in a delicate balance, held together in that little brick building owned by the city But a shock was coming that would upend that balance forever. From GBH News, this is the Big Dig Season three, Catching the Codfather. I'm Ian Coss. The shock I mentioned would allow Carlos to consolidate power like never before, but it would also leave a mark on the whole port, a feeling of bitterness and mistrust that lingers there to this day. Between the fishing industry and their government, this is part two. I hope those people sink. Hey, hope you're enjoying the show so far and just want to make sure you know that the Big Dig has a membership program called the HOV Lane. So if you want to get early access to all our episodes as well as members only events, all while supporting the show, go to wgbh.org hovlane to sign up. Thanks so much. When I would go down to New Bedford to do interviews for the series, I would often stop by one of the fish markets in town on my way home just to see what was fresh, maybe get something for dinner. And it reminded me that a great fishmonger is really a special treat. And I'm not just talking about a fish seller, but somebody who can really make sure that you're only getting the best quality fish, tell you where it came from, maybe even offer you a tip on how to cook it. That is what you get from Rogers Fish Company. You can order online at rogersfishco.com or check out their new location at Logan Airport in Boston. Maybe you've heard of these scary things out there called Forever Chemicals, but what would you do if you discovered they were in your drinking water? This is the reality for residents of a town in New Hampshire and possibly for you too. If you want to hear that story, check out the podcast Safe to Drink, a new four part series from our neighbors and friends at New Hampshire Public Radio. Truly, that team is so good they have the Pulitzer Prize nomination to prove it. And in this series they take us deep inside a major water contamination event. So follow Safe to Drink on your favorite podcast app. All four episodes are out now. So I was wondering, could you to start, tell me, how long has your family been fishing in New Bedford?

[Rodney Avila]

Well, it started with my great grandfather. He came over on a whale ship from the Azores and then I started my career when I was nine years old.

[Ian Coss]

Rodney Avila is a fourth generation Portuguese American fisherman. His grandsons fish now too, so that's six generations total, all drawn to the same sea.

[Rodney Avila]

Any day I had off at school I'd go fishing with my grandfather who owned a little lobster boat out of here so as we grew up, fishing was in our lives. That's what we did.

[Ian Coss]

On the fourth of July, the whole extended family would ride out to one of the islands off New Bedford and pitch tents for the weekend. The women and young kids would hang out on the beach while the men would take one of their boats out and hunt for supper.

[Rodney Avila]

Swordfish, clams, quahogs, scallops. I mean, we did everything.

[Ian Coss]

And growing up in a fishing family, here, one of the rites of passage is your first trip to a place known as George's Bank.

[Reporter/Commentator]

George's bank is one of the richest fishing areas in the world.

[Ian Coss]

George's bank is a huge expanse of shallow water extending hundreds of miles out to sea, like an underwater peninsula, invisible on the surface. From New Bedford, it takes a whole day for a fishing boat to get to the outer end of the bank. So this is not a quick trip you can make on a day off from school. Usually, boats would spend at least a week fishing out there, far from shore, where the weather and currents were notoriously dangerous and unpredictable.

[Police Officer/Observer]

These are the wildest waters in the world. It's called the graveyard of the Atlantic.

[Ian Coss]

But boats have made that trip for centuries because the shallow water and swirling currents make an incredible, incredible habitat for fish.

[Reporter/Commentator]

One of the few major spawning grounds for haddock and cod in the United.

[Ian Coss]

And as soon as Rodney Avila was old enough, he made the trip there too. Avila remembers that the day he graduated high school, his mother drove him straight from the school parking lot down to the dock where a boat was waiting for him to take a seven day trip out to George's Bank. He was a man now, and those fishing grounds were part of his family heritage, just like the Portuguese clubs and the fourth of July cookout. So now just imagine how the port responded when they heard that their government wanted to give it away to Canada.

[Jeff Pike]

I can go get a chart if you like.

[Ian Coss]

Let's do it.

[Harvey Mickelson]

Okay.

[Ian Coss]

Jeff pike was a staff member for the Merchant Marine and Fisheries Committee in the US House. He worked with Congressman Gary Studs, the man who led the charge in kicking out the foreign fishing boats. But as pike explained to me, that move had consequences.

[Jeff Pike]

So if you had the coastline, the coastline would be going up this way, right?

[Ian Coss]

Yep.

[Jeff Pike]

And you've got Nova Scotia here.

[Ian Coss]

Two months after Gerald Ford signed the Magnuson act, the bill that created the 200 mile exclusive fishing zone, Canada's Secretary of State announced that they were going to do the same thing. The problem is that if you draw a line 200 miles out from the coast of the U.S. and another line 200 miles out from the coast of Canada. Those two lines cross, and the disputed.

[Jeff Pike]

Zone was essentially here.

[Ian Coss]

They crossed on George's Bank. In 1977, delegations from the U.S. and Canada met for a series of negotiations on how to settle the disputed zone on the American side. The delegation was led by the State Department. The people who, as Congressman Studs put it in the last episode, thought lobsters were red.

[Harvey Mickelson]

My involvement was representing the seafood processing industry from the city of New Bedford, which was major. And being advisor to the State Department.

[Ian Coss]

Harvey Mickelson was there for these negotiations, too, and horrified by the outcome. The final compromise was this. The two countries would split George's Bank. And the piece that the State Department was ready to hand over to Canada, it was the richest part of the whole bank. That meant American captains like Avila would lose access to some of their best fishing grounds, areas that they had relied on for generations. But there was still hope. The treaty had to be ratified by Congress, and Mickelson knew his congressman very well. It was Gary Studds.

[Harvey Mickelson]

In fact, he called me on the phone and he said, avi, what's the story? Do you want to accept the treaty or not? And I said, no.

[Ian Coss]

Mickelson and the other industry reps told Studs, we want to fight. The thinking was that if Congress rejected the treaty, then the dispute would then go to the International court. And Mickelson believed they had a solid case there. Historically, it was US Fishermen who had made the most trips to George's Bank. And just looking at it on an ocean chart, it's clear that the bank is an extension of the US Continental shelf. It seemed intuitive to give the whole thing to the US when he said.

[Harvey Mickelson]

Okay, and that was it. He handled it.

[Ian Coss]

The Canadian parliament ratified the treaty, but the US Congress rejected it. The fight was on. Do you remember on that phone call, weighing the like, there's a bit of a gamble here. I mean, it's sort of like choosing whether to go to trial or take a plea deal, right?

[Harvey Mickelson]

Anytime you walk into court, you don't know what you're gonna walk out with. We all know.

[Ian Coss]

In 1981, the dispute went to the International court in the Hague. For Rodney Avila, life went on as normal. George's bank was in legal limbo, so everyone could fish there for now.

[Rodney Avila]

Both coast guards used to fly over us. We used to see the Canadian cutter, the Shibukto, that was the name of it, used to pass us all the time. And they'd wave, we'd wave. Like that.

[Ian Coss]

But down in Washington, Jeff pike was worried about the case. The US legal team was from the State Department, the people who had opposed creating the 200 mile limit in the first place. And pike was getting the sense that this fishing dispute was just not that team's top priority.

[Jeff Pike]

Whereas Canada was putting everything they had into winning the case.

[Ian Coss]

The Canadian lawyers were all in. They were presenting videos, they had historical documents. It was a good show, I guess.

[Jeff Pike]

You could say we got out, lawyered.

[Ian Coss]

On October 12, 1984, the ruling finally came down from the International Court in the Hague and it was bad.

[Jeff Pike]

I was in the New Bedford office and it was in the morning around 9 o' clock, because as soon as I got the call from State Department, I called Harvey, I called a number of the industry leaders. I got out the chart on Gary's desk in New Bedford and I said, you got to come here, we got to talk about this.

[Ian Coss]

On a regular map in which the ocean is just a flat uniform wash of blue, the so called Hague Line makes perfect sense. It basically takes the midway point between the US coast in Massachusetts and the Canadian coast in Nova Scotia and follows that all the way out to sea. For the New Bedford fishermen who knew what was under that expanse of water, the line was unthinkable. The court had not only split George's bank, but the split was even worse than the original treaty. The US had gambled and lost and.

[Jeff Pike]

They were like shocked. It was just betrayal.

[Ian Coss]

Now the American boats had 14 days to get back on their side of the new line. Then the invisible barrier became hard. Some fishermen started calling the line the French fence. What did that loss feel like?

[Rodney Avila]

Well, we lost everything. We lost the best yellowtailing, we lost the best scalloping, we lost the best swordfish grounds. I would say we lost a good 40 to 50% of our revenue.

[Ian Coss]

Did you have an emotional connection to that place? You know, is it like a farmer losing their field?

[Rodney Avila]

Yeah, like I said, I started when I was nine years old. My first trip to Georges banks, I was 13 years old. I mean, I didn't hate a lot of people, but I wasn't happy with our government really. Only because I figured they just threw the fishing industry away to Canada.

[Ian Coss]

Avila's uncle had warned him about the government getting involved in their business. He said it was like your in laws coming to visit. Once they came, you'd never get them out. And here was the twist of the knife. The government had kicked out the foreigners only to give up the crown jewel of their fishing grounds.

[Jeff Pike]

There Was a lot of anger. A lot of anger. And I think in hindsight, now you really see how losing that has really impacted the New England industry.

[Ian Coss]

There's a phrase you hear a lot in the conversation about fishing in New England. Too many boats chasing too few fish. In the 70s and early 80s, the government had encouraged fishermen to build new boats, to invest in their industry, to create jobs for their children, mining this vast resource that was suddenly all theirs. Like I said before, a whole generation answered that call, including Rodney Avila and Carlos Rafael and many others. But the promise was false, and now the whole industry built on it was about to crack.

[Narrator/Announcer]

From whaling to textiles to fishing, New Bedford has always put all its economic eggs in a single basket, only to see each industry collapse for other cities. The classic conflict.

[Ian Coss]

In 1984, the year of the Hague, ruling New Bedford was the richest fishing port in the country in terms of the total value of the seafood landed there. Times were good. Then the French fence went up. In the next year, 1985, total landings dropped by 20%.

[John Bullard]

So when you shrink the piece, when you overfish the resource, it puts everybody under strain.

[Ian Coss]

This is John Bullard, former mayor of New Bedford.

[John Bullard]

And when you put everyone under strain, the pressure and the pressure cooker builds. The fuel cost $2,500. The ice, $1,000.

[Ian Coss]

To make matters worse, the cost of running a fishing boat, the fuel, the insurance, kept going up.

[John Bullard]

To do better, they fish harder.

[Ian Coss]

So squeezing the pressure cooker even more.

[John Bullard]

And at some point, it's going to blow.

[Ian Coss]

And it happened to blow on your watch?

[John Bullard]

Yeah, definitely blew on my watch.

[Ian Coss]

John Bullard was sworn in as the mayor of New Bedford on Monday, January 6, 1986, at the High school auditorium. This was a little more than a year after the French fence went up.

[John Bullard]

So inauguration day is, you know, pomp and circumstance. It's figuring out which family bible you want to put your hand on. I chose two.

[Ian Coss]

He chose two Bibles because two of his ancestors had also been mayor of New Bedford before him. Bullard comes from a legendary local family. His ancestors had built up the whaling industry here back in the 1700s. For centuries, literally centuries, they had been engaged in the life of this city, and they had been known by the name John Bullard. And how many John Bullards are there before you?

[John Bullard]

Well, my grandfather wrote a letter to the Harvard admissions guy saying there are 13 John Bullards. Eleven of them went to Harvard. One who didn't was fighting the revolutionary war. And one is my grandson.

[Ian Coss]

Our John Bullard, by the way, did become the 12th, John Bullard to attend Harvard. And now he was following through on another family tradition, becoming his city's mayor. As soon as he was inaugurated, Bullard knew exactly where he needed to go.

[John Bullard]

And I said, well, before we get to the mayor's office, Ed Craig from the police department was going to drive me there. I said, ed, could you take me down to South Terminal?

[Ian Coss]

Down inside the pressure cooker, Bullard and his 12 year old son got into the mayor's black Buick with a blue municipal license plate. The police sergeant descended the hill and approached the waterfront. You may have an image of, of coastal New England as something quaint. Colorful little boats tied up at wooden piers, a lobster shack. But the New Bedford waterfront is not that. It's industrial warehouses, its loading docks. It's concrete and steel. It's a place built to move fish. But in 1986, all of that had come to a halt. The fishermen were on strike. As the mayor's car approached the scene, Bullard could see on one side of the street there were about 200 angry fishermen. On the other side, about 100 police officers with riot shields and German shepherds. The car stopped in the middle. Bullard told his son to stay put, and he stepped out to meet the crowd.

[Police Officer/Observer]

You have one of the most difficult jobs that anyone has.

[Ian Coss]

First, Bullard spoke to the fishermen.

[Police Officer/Observer]

Now, I, as mayor, cannot take sides between union and management. I don't think you expect me to.

[Ian Coss]

He could tell the situation was volatile. The men crowded around him, angry that Bullard wasn't taking a stronger stand on his first day in office. Bullard then crossed the street to speak with the police officers and went back to the car where his son was waiting. As they pulled away, someone threw a rock in their direction. It missed, but the message was not lost.

[John Bullard]

There's no such thing as being in the middle of the the street.

[Ian Coss]

Fishing is a kind of tricky business to unionize. A single port like New Bedford could have dozens of different boats with many different owners, each of whom hire and pay their own crews. There is no single employer to bargain with. But the fishermen of New Bedford had managed to band together nonetheless and to win real concessions from the boat owners.

[Rodney Avila]

I was a union man before I was a boat owner.

[Ian Coss]

Rodney Avila had been in that union when he was starting out and remained a strong union supporter even after he owned his own boats.

[Rodney Avila]

I kept my boats in the union because I thought it was best for the crew, because it gave them a retirement package and it had some control over the work on a dragger. It was eight and four. You worked eight hours, you got four hours off On a scalper, it was six or six. You worked six and you got six off.

[Ian Coss]

According to Avila, the union even limited how many pounds of fish a boat could catch per crew member. 6,000 pounds per person per trip. The point was to protect jobs, but it also functioned as a kind of conservation measure at a time when there were very few limits on what you could catch. By the mid-1980s, only about a third of the boats in the port were officially union boats. But even still, the union was powerful enough that the non union boats would mostly follow these same guidelines.

[Rodney Avila]

If you didn't go by those regulations, you'd lose your crew to union boats.

[Ian Coss]

So as long as there was a critical mass of union boats, it kind of kept the same standards in the whole fleet.

[Rodney Avila]

Yes. So it was better working conditions for the crew, it was better priced for the crew because the price gave up. And it was better for the consumer because they get fresh fish. I thought it was the best. I didn't want to see the union breakup.

[Ian Coss]

So now we can see all the main players in this particular story. There are really three of them. The boat owners, their crews who are represented by the union, and then the assorted dealers and processors who buy their fish, people like Carlos. So owners, dealers and crew. We're going to spend the next few minutes focusing on the conflict between the boat owners and the crews, because that's how the strike started. But soon enough, Carlos and the dealers will be dragged into this fight too.

[Reporter/Commentator]

Boat owners and union officials haven't met since contract negotiations broke down last Thursday. Then this weekend, the boat owners decided.

[Ian Coss]

In the fall of 1985, back when John Bullard was still campaigning for mayor, the boat owners and the fisherman's union were meeting to negotiate a new contract.

[Reporter/Commentator]

There are several issues separating the two sides. The first and foremost is pay, and that's determined by the split of the catch.

[Ian Coss]

Instead of receiving a salary or set rate, each crew member was paid a slice of the value of the catch, which of course was determined at auction. So when the fishing was good and the prices were good, everyone benefited. Under the old contract, the revenue from each trip was split so that the crew got the bigger share.

[Rodney Avila]

Back then, we used to get 42% for the boat and 58% of the catch went to the crew.

[Ian Coss]

A 58, 42 split favoring the crew.

[Rodney Avila]

And it was the best settlement for the crew.

[Ian Coss]

But with rising expenses and now falling catches, thanks to the French fence and the group of owners that Negotiated with the union was demanding new terms, an even 50, 50 split of the catch.

[Reporter/Commentator]

What do you think of the contract they've offered you, the boat owners have offered you?

[Rodney Avila]

I think it's not fair. It's not fair.

[Ian Coss]

Commercial fishing is generally considered the most dangerous job in America, period. Rates of workplace death are 40 times the national average. So even in good times, that kind of pay cut the owners proposed would be a tough sell. In 1985, it was devastating. The fishermen would be getting a smaller slice of a smaller pie.

[Rodney Avila]

Leave my family home wondering what's going to happen to my wife and the kids to make $200 a week.

[Ian Coss]

It's not worth it.

[Rodney Avila]

It's not worth it.

[Ian Coss]

The final ingredient in the pressure cooker was the union leadership. The union had gone through its own internal struggles that year, and the leader left standing was a controversial figure named Joe Paiva.

[John Bullard]

Joe Paiva is of Portuguese descent, and he now is the business agent for the Teamsters local in New.

[Ian Coss]

Paiva was known as a bit of an agitator. Fishermen I've met described him to me as a badass, a hoodlum and a tough character. In pictures, Paiva usually has a union jacket and a white newsboy cap pulled down over his face. What you can't see in the pictures is that the four letters of his last name are tattooed between the knuckles of his left hand Piva. On the day after Christmas 1985, with contract negative negotiations stuck, Paiva's union decided to up the pressure. That's when they declared a strike.

[Joe Paiva]

It's a proud day. I must let the city know and we must let management know. We are working people. We create with our hands, we work with our hands, and all we want is a fair shake.

[Ian Coss]

Like I said before, less than half the fleet carried union crews. So if those crews simply walked off the job, it would not shut down the port and force the other side to bend. Fishing could go on. However, there was another way to apply pressure on boat owners, a weak link in the whole supply chain, which is the auction. Shut down the auction and you shut down the port.

[Joe Paiva]

It's a matter of right and wrong, fairness.

[Narrator/Announcer]

That's it.

[Ian Coss]

So a week into the strike, on January 3rd, 600 union members surrounded the small brick Warfinger building, marching in a slow loop with picket signs against their shoulders.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Stay in this fight until we win.

[Ian Coss]

Two boats were waiting nearby, tied up at the peak and ready to put their fish up on the blackboard. Now, in theory, the building was still open. The fish dealers could simply cross the picket line and buy fish from any boat willing to sell. But inside the building, they found that the phone lines, which the dealers used to communicate with their own customers, had all been cut, and the clock that counted down the 22 minutes had been disabled. That day, there was no auction.

[Reporter/Commentator]

As the New Bedford fisherman strike gets older, it's not getting any closer to a settlement. In fact, both sides are so far apart.

[Ian Coss]

This situation went on for over a week. The same week John Bullard was sworn in as the city's new mayor, negotiations were stalled, and the auction was closed.

[Reporter/Commentator]

In fact, both sides are so far apart, even the mayor of New Bedford is wondering whether anyone wants to settle.

[Police Officer/Observer]

That's a question in my mind, whether both sides are.

[Ian Coss]

It was January, so the union members out on the picket line lit fires and trash cans to stay warm. A local cafe provided free chicken soup and trays of bologna sandwiches. Everyone seemed dug in, ready to wait it out.

[Reporter/Commentator]

The mayor said his city was losing more than a million dollars a day worth of business.

[Ian Coss]

So now. Now what had started as a feud between the union and the boat owners over pay had expanded to include the fish dealers, the people like Carlos Rafael, who made their living cutting deals at the auction. Because every day the auction stayed closed meant another day of no deals, no action until the last week of January, when the stalemate finally broke.

[Carlos Rafael]

Because this still was America. You know, you ain't gonna stop my operation. You can do whatever you want. I will keep buying fish. Don't even try to stop me.

[Ian Coss]

Harvey Mickelson, the seafood industry lawyer, was at the center of what happened next, because his clients were the fish dealers who wanted desperately to restart the auction and. And get back to buying fish, he recalls. The decisive moment came first thing in the morning, right outside the Wharfinger building.

[Harvey Mickelson]

Somebody pushed one of the buyers from behind. There had never been anything like that before. Didn't hurt him, but he pushed him.

[Ian Coss]

That day, Mickelson and his clients made a decision.

[Harvey Mickelson]

The buyers were going to take control of the auction.

[Ian Coss]

For decades, the fish dealers, like Carlos, had been guests at the auction. They could come, they could bid, they could play their games, but they did not run the place. It was the union that officially ran the auction, and it was the city that owned the building. That was about to change.

[Harvey Mickelson]

I was able to get an office, moved all of the telephones, 14 houses of telephones into that place overnight.

[Ian Coss]

With those newly installed phone lines, plus, of course, a big blackboard, the dealers had everything they needed to run an.

[Harvey Mickelson]

Auction without any involvement at all from the union or the city.

[Ian Coss]

Mickelson knew this move was dangerous. It was a provocation.

[Harvey Mickelson]

I mean, from everybody's perspective, I can understand that.

[Ian Coss]

And the union would respond to that provocation.

[Police Officer/Observer]

And I'm getting into better position here to see exactly what's going on. The dealers are out. They're out in the lot right now.

[Ian Coss]

I'm David Remnick, host of the New Yorker Radio Hour. There's nothing like finding a story you can really sink into that lets you tune out the noise and focus on what matters in print or here on the podcast. The New Yorker brings you thoughtfulness and depth and even humor that you can't find anywhere else. So please join me every week for the New Yorker Radio Hour. Wherever you listen to podcasts, Let me tell you about a personal pet peeve of mine. You order a bowl of clam chowder, get about two spoonfuls in before realizing there are hardly any clams in it. You're basically eating warm cream with potatoes. Fortunately, there is a better alternative from Rogers Fish Company. They do a double clam chowder, which, as the name suggests, is loaded with real Cape Cod clams. And like all Rogers seafood, it's restaurant quality, flash frozen at peak freshness and delivered to your door. Find [e-mail].

[Police Officer/Observer]

I mean, on the last.

[Ian Coss]

The private fish auction opened for business on January 20, 1986. So almost a month into the strike, the building Mickelson had found was the warehouse for a trucking company called Yellowbird Motor Lines. So people called it the Yellowbird Auction. And it had a very different feel from the old Wharfinger building. High ceilings, fluorescent lights, fresh carpeting, and a chain link fence all around the outside. As Harvey Mickelson himself put it to me, the fox was now taking over the chicken coop.

[John Bullard]

This was one more blow to the crew.

[Ian Coss]

Again, John Bullard, the city's new mayor.

[John Bullard]

So they got even angrier because now they were being screwed twice. First by the boat owners, then by the dealers. And so they surrounded the building.

[Ian Coss]

Joe Piva and the mass of striking fishermen simply relocated about three quarters of a mile down the waterfront to the Yellowbird building and set up a new picket line. But after a month on strike, the crowd was getting restless. There were reports of broken windows and vehicles being lit on fire. Anything could happen. Now.

[Carlos Rafael]

See right here, I got a nice silver knee from that strike.

[Ian Coss]

In his office, along with all the Scarface memorabilia, Carlos Rafael keeps a rock the size of a fist.

[Carlos Rafael]

This rock was true. And through the t top of my Firebird doing The. The strike.

[Ian Coss]

Where were you?

[Carlos Rafael]

I was going into the auction and they had a picket line. I got my Firebird. I went to the driveway. They were blocking. I won't stop. I went right through and I saw the guy. They threw the rock. I went to him, I said, okay, which you date, I will not forget. And if you think you're going to scare me with a rock, it'll be the biggest mistake you ever made.

[Ian Coss]

Carlos says that some dealers didn't dare cross the union, but their loss was his gain. Carlos hired security at his warehouse around the clock. He started carrying a gun. When the tires on his trucks were slashed, he replaced them and he kept going to the auction because for whoever could make it in the door, there was good money to be made.

[Carlos Rafael]

Every time it's a crisis, that's when you make a lot of money.

[Police Officer/Observer]

We've got riot gear. Police lined up all down the street here, all the way past the gate. There are several police cars in an L formation.

[Harvey Mickelson]

I can remember leaving my car at one of the members locations.

[Ian Coss]

Harvey Mickelson told me that as the standoff was, groups of buyers started meeting at a separate location and all loading into a delivery van, like the kind with a refrigeration unit and no windows. The van would pull into the enclosed parking lot at Yellowbird and back up to the building as close as possible.

[Harvey Mickelson]

People were across the street, fishermen with wives and dogs and kids throwing rocks.

[Ian Coss]

Once the van was in of front place, the dealers would kick the rear doors open and sprint the final 15ft to the safety of the building. The way Mickelson described it sounded like the beach landing at Normandy.

[Police Officer/Observer]

And I'm getting into better position here to see exactly what's going on. The dealers are out. They're out in the lot right now.

[Ian Coss]

But the fish dealers, remember, they thrived on cutthroat action, on bluffing, backstabbing, brinkmanship. That was all part of the, of their business. And so they were not going to back down.

[Carlos Rafael]

Now I come out, I says, one of you steps in the front of my truck, I'm going to shoot you. And I mean it. Don't take days as a threat. This is a promise. You block that driveway one more time, one of you is going to go.

[Police Officer/Observer]

Down flying at a very fast pace out of the lot. More rocks flying, more cars coming out. People are being, being taken into custody left and right here. The last of the dealers are now out of the lot. Hit the pavement pretty fast and the rocks continue to.

[Ian Coss]

They cleared out of your way.

[Carlos Rafael]

They Knew I meant it. That got true and I sold. It was making good money with the face to the other dealers because somebody was scared of the load on the boats. I wasn't scared. This is a free country. You keep doing what you do. When you believe in a strike, you strike, you do all that. Do not interfere with my trucks.

[Ian Coss]

Joe Paiva and his union were starting to lose their grip on the port. Non union boats continued to fish. The private auction continued to sell. Dealers like Carlos continued to profit. But the union did succeed in one thing. Drawing the city government into the fray.

[Joe Paiva]

You fishermen over the years have been screwed royally.

[Ian Coss]

And that allegiance between the city and the union made sense. New Bedford was historically a democratic city. The democrats were historically the party of labor. And especially at that time when the Reagan administration was actively breaking public unions. Bullard, as the Democratic mayor, always kept his distance from the contract negotiations. But it's clear to me that his sympathy was with the striking fishermen.

[Reporter/Commentator]

What about the strike itself? What can you do for the fishermen?

[Police Officer/Observer]

I think there's very little we can do.

[Ian Coss]

And there was one thing that Bullard could do for the fishermen, one bit of leverage that he still had to at least protect the public auction.

[John Bullard]

There was a city ordinance that said it had to happen in public so anyone could go down and see that take place.

[Ian Coss]

This ordinance had been on the books for decades. It said that any fish unloaded at city piers had to be sold at the city auction. Simple enough. But the rule had never been controversial before, so it had never really been enforced.

[John Bullard]

I said, yeah, well, let's find out what's going to happen if we do that. We need to arrest the first captain who tries to auction it.

[Police Officer/Observer]

Yellow bird will enforce the ordinances against them.

[Ian Coss]

That first week the so called yellowbird auction was open, citations quickly piled up. Four against fish dealers and eight against boats to get them to act in.

[Police Officer/Observer]

What we believe is the.

[Ian Coss]

Bullard was no longer in the middle of the street. He was now in the fight.

[Police Officer/Observer]

We'll probably find out in the next few weeks whether the ordinance is legal or not.

[Ian Coss]

But again, it was still unclear to everyone if these penalties would hold up in court.

[John Bullard]

So I called up the judge who had sworn me in on the phone.

[Ian Coss]

Bullard explained to the judge about the ordinance and the arrests, the question of its legality and all that. But it turned out no explanation was needed.

[John Bullard]

Judge Jacobs said, thanks for the call, Mayor. I know that ordinance very well, because before I was a judge, I was city solicitor. I actually wrote that ordinance. I said, no, Kidding.

[Ian Coss]

For a moment, Bullard's heart lifted. I mean, you'd think the judge would be on the city side if he had written the rule in question.

[John Bullard]

Really? You wrote the ordinance? He said, yes, I wrote that ordinance. And therefore, I know it's unconstitutional because I wrote it.

[Ian Coss]

And with that, his heart dropped.

[John Bullard]

I said, judge, you're telling me you wrote an ordinance that you know is unconstitutional? Yes, I did. And so I'm going to throw that case out of court faster than you can just blink an eye at.

[Ian Coss]

The law was a hollow threat. It had always been a hollow threat. Now Bullard knew it. And if the fish dealers didn't know it, too, they were bound to find out pretty soon. The stranger strike was now into its second full month. Boat owners and crews remained stuck, and so far, the only winner was their mutual enemy, the dealers.

[Reporter/Commentator]

Then this weekend, the boat owners came up with a different tact. Instead of talking to the union officials, they decided to make an offer directly to the union membership.

[Ian Coss]

So a week after the Yellowbird auction opened for business, the boat owners delivered an ultimatum. Our boats are going back out to sea. You can work on our terms or we'll find crew who will. The terms were basically what the owners had been demanding all along. An even split of the catch. 51% to the crew, 49% to the owners. The union under Joe Paiva quickly rejected the offer. But the offer wasn't really directed at him. It was at his members.

[Joe Paiva]

I mean this very sincerely. There were some vessels that got out of here, and it made good press. And I watched this press take me on.

[Ian Coss]

This was now the ultimate test of the union strength. And Paiva knew it would his members hold the line.

[Joe Paiva]

And I'm gonna tell you this. They watched the boats go out, but they never followed the rest of the story out. They went out with two, three men. I will remember my friends, but I'll never forget my enemies, and I will never forgive them.

[Ian Coss]

When I talk to fishermen who were working at this time, I found a lot of them have mixed feelings about the strike. In principle, they supported the union and what it stood for. But in this case, there was some personality and ego involved that hurt the process. I'm thinking specifically about Joe Paiva, the union leader, who once said of himself, some people think I walk on water, and some people think I should be in the water. Paiva promised his members a lot, maybe more than he could deliver. And when the negotiations went poorly, he didn't shy away from antagonizing the boat owners. And then of course, there was the violence and destruction of property. It's hard to judge now. And Paiva would sometimes accuse the media of fixating on the violence to make a better story. He'd probably say that about this podcast. But it's clear from my research that this strike did have an aggressive edge that ultimately undermined its support. How did you respond at the time, as a boat owner?

[Rodney Avila]

Well, as a boat owner, I respected the strike.

[Ian Coss]

One of those conflicted fishermen was Rodney Avila. At first, Avila kept his boat tied up and didn't ask his crew to work. He didn't want to defy the union that he had once been part of and still believed in.

[Rodney Avila]

Then I had a leak in my boat, and my son went down and saw a crack. I mean, the harbor was iced up. Saw a crack in one of the wells. So I called up Northlantic, which was a shipyard over here, and I asked them, I says, can I bring the boat over for. You have welders? So he says, yeah, bring your boat over. I'll get a welder right on it. So I told my son, start the engine up. I'll be right down. When they heard the engine start up, one of the guys says, oh, Rodney's going fishing. They brought everybody down. By the time I got to the boat, must have been at least 50 guys around my boat. And I said, I'm not going fishing. I've got a leak in Lazarette and I'm going to weld it. And one of the guys there said, no, he's going fishing. And then they threatened my son. So I said, you know what? Why am I even into this? So I called up my crew without anybody knowing. I asked them, hey, if I take my boat to Newport, you guys want to come to Newport and fish?

[Ian Coss]

That's Newport, Rhode Island, a nearby port that was not on strike.

[Rodney Avila]

Everyone but one said, yes, that's fine. So I ended up coming down one night, starting the boat up. Me and my son, we took it to Newport.

[Ian Coss]

As someone who had been in the union, was it hard for you to ultimately cross that picket line and go out fishing?

[Rodney Avila]

It was, but it wasn't the same union that I joined. It was different leadership. The benefits were the same. Everything was the same. The percentage stood the same, but wasn't the same core people inside.

[Ian Coss]

By the time Avila did come back to New Bedford, it was clear that the striking fisherman knew where he'd been.

[Rodney Avila]

I had to call it. I had to call four new tires. They slashed the tires, broke a mirror, kicked in the Door. But. But it's all right. I mean, they did what they had to do. I did what I had to do.

[Ian Coss]

It started as a trickle of boats leaving the harbor, then 10 all at once. Then another 10. One striking fisherman told the local paper, I hope those people sink. The strike did not formally end, but over several months, the picket lines dwindled, Trash can fires stopped burning. The trays of bologna sandwiches stopped coming. The court cases from that hollow city ordinance were all thrown out. By the spring of 1986, when the last patches of ice were gone from the harbor, you could walk the waterfront and never know that technically it was still on strike. To this day, the city run fish auction has never reopened, and the fishermen's union has never recovered. Do you feel like if they had held on, is there a world in which they could have won that strike?

[John Bullard]

I don't think so. I don't think so. So the boat owners got what they wanted, the dealers got what they wanted, and the crew got screwed.

[Ian Coss]

John Bullard told me that from the time he got into politics in his hometown, he understood that he would have a delicate relationship with the fishing industry, that his world and theirs were not made to mix.

[John Bullard]

Fishermen are anti government because fishermen are fiercely independent. That's why they go fishing.

[Ian Coss]

Bullard is a liberal Democrat, someone who fundamentally believes government exists to help people, and specifically those people who can't help themselves. He acted on that belief. He took, took a side. But in the strike, just like in the border dispute with Canada, when the government tried to help the fishermen, the government failed. It couldn't help them. As you know, I've been told. I do have a short statement here. In the summer of 1986. So a few months after the strike fizzled, President Ronald Reagan gave a press conference addressing the struggles of American farmers who, like the fishermen, were facing tough economic times. And he delivered to them one of his favorite mantras. I think you all know that I've always felt the nine most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I'm here to help. I'm from the government and I'm here to help. By the end of the 1980s, you can see why many fishermen would fear those words too. After the strike, there were really only two power centers left in the port, the boat owners and the fish dealers. And of course, Carlos Rafael was both. Remember, these were the years when the federal government was still offering up big incentives to build new boats. By 1986, Carlos had started to build his own fleet with the trademark CR on the bow. So the strike was a gift. It gave him more control over his boats, more control over the auction, more control over his entire business. Once again, and not for the last time, a crisis for the industry was an opportunity for Carlos.

[Carlos Rafael]

In days, I buy a quarter of a million pounds.

[Ian Coss]

And it was around that same time that he also got a new nickname.

[Carlos Rafael]

DB days would be 12 boats on the board. I buy 10 out of the 12.

[Ian Coss]

One morning, when Carlos had been buying up boat after boat, cod, flounder and all the other so called ground fish, someone he knew walked up to him at the auction house and declared, we.

[Carlos Rafael]

Don'T have to start calling him the cod father. Because I would buy every cod fish. I mean 80% of the brown fish, special cod fish, they arrived in New Bedford, I would buy it all. So that's how it started, right in New Yorkshire. Call them the card father and the stupid shit stuck.

[Ian Coss]

But the strike was just the first sign of more trouble to come. It had not even attempted to address the underlying issue of falling catches and shrinking stocks. Issues that would require collective action, maybe even government action. All through that decade, the warnings kept coming.

[John Bullard]

Tonight are the world's oceans running out of fish?

[Ian Coss]

Until 1990, when a group of environmental lawyers took matters into their own hands. That independence the fishermen had cherished. It was over.

[Police Officer/Observer]

It's a doomsday situation. If we keep on the way we're.

[Ian Coss]

Going, that's next time.

[John Bullard]

Fish disappearing.

[Ian Coss]

Fish disappearing. Catching the Codfather is produced by Isabel Hibbert and myself, Ian Coss. It's edited by Lacey Roberts. The editorial Supervisor is Jennifer McKim with support from Ryan Alderman, and the executive producer is Devin Matthew. Maverick Robbins. If you want to hear more stories like this produced by the same team, just search for the Big Dig wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find videos of every episode with incredible archival footage on YouTube, edited by Joni Tobin and Annie Gerson. We owe a very special thanks for this episode to the New Bedford Fishing Heritage center for generously sharing their archival material. It is such a gift that the city has an institution to preserve that history and make it available to the public. I also want to acknowledge some of the reporters you hear in the old news features, specifically Gary Golas, Meg Valencourt and Christy George, as well as Nancy Drucker. Their reporting at the time allows me to tell the story now. The artwork is by Bill Miller. Our closing song is Viva, Viva New Bedford by Georges Ferreira. The Big Dig is a production of GBH News and distributed by PRS.

[Police Officer/Observer]

The spheres, the status, the standards.

[Ian Coss]

I really hope you're enjoying the show, and before I let you go, I just want to drop in with that constant podcaster's reminder to please rate the show, leave us a review, subscribe, and of course, tell a friend. All that stuff really, really does help us keep the show going. Thank you so much.

[Harvey Mickelson]

From PR.