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Scrolling 2 Death
[BONUS EPISODE] The Heat is On...Big Tech on Trial: A Conversation with Toney & Brandy Roberts
00:24:34
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- [00:03]
A
Welcome to the Heat is on Big Tech on Trial, a scrolling to death series in partnership with Heat Initiative. Across the country, thousands of families, school districts and dozens of states are suing TikTok, YouTube, Meta and Snap, alleging these platforms were deliberately designed to addict and harm children.
- [00:21]
B
One of those families is the Roberts family. In 2020, Tony and Brandi Roberts tragically lost their 14 year old daughter, England.
- [00:30]
A
Our conversation with England's parents cuts through the legal noise and reminds us what these cases are really about. Real families, real harm and companies that put profit over children. I'm Nikki Petrossi.
- [00:43]
B
And I'm Sarah Gardner. Today we're bringing you a bonus episode of the Heat Is on Big Tech on Trial. Our conversation with Tony and Brandi Roberts. I just really loved what Laura I was thinking a lot last night after you guys left. Nikki, I'd like to share it with you too. Was talking about how like the opposite of love is actually indifference, it's not hate. And how everyone in this group who's working and fighting for justice could never be called indifferent. Like we are so motivated and grounded in our why, working tirelessly to make sure that these changes happen so other children don't experience, other families don't experience. What you all have had to go through. And looking around the room when she said it and she was like, none of us are indifferent, I was like, that is just such the perfect way to capture how we feel about each other in this work.
- [01:39]
A
Okay, I feel like I'm jumping in hard here, but I want to focus on Meta in this episode. I want to know what you feel Instagram did to Anglin.
- [01:49]
C
Instagram sent her harmful videos and one of the videos that they sent is what she did. And that's how we found her. Now, of course, we didn't know until a month or so after she passed when I really started going through her phone to find out how. Where did she get this from? Where did she get the idea from? But then when I started digging even further, whatever she was looking through, you could see all the suicide type of content, even from, I guess you would consider them famous people, people that's in the music industry or just influencers talking about their mental health. And you can just start seeing just a trail of bad stuff that probably led her down that rabbit hole of whatever she was feeling. And that particular night, it just was probably really deep for her.
- [02:43]
A
And when you found that video and was there the ability to alert Meta that this content was there? Did you do that? And then did they do anything after they were alerted.
- [02:54]
C
This particular account that the video was on, I alerted someone. And I'm not sure if they went through and did something, but in about two months that video was deleted. Well, the whole account, whole Instagram account was deleted. And this account posted crazy videos. People maybe crashing on a bicycle or doing stupid stuff on a skateboard. They just had a slew of what they consider funny. And that video was part of that. Now, after I did more research, after I started learning how these algorithms and how these different things work, I was able to find that particular video 15 times. This particular person has probably 50 or more accounts at the time. It had maybe 350 likes. And I can still find all 15 accounts and the videos on them today. And it's gone to over 6000 likes on certain accounts. I guess people are still commenting that they thought it was funny and think it's funny.
- [04:02]
A
And Sarah, can you speak for a second to the technical aspect of that? Like how easy it is to find and remove duplicate videos?
- [04:08]
B
Oh my gosh, they could do it in their sleep. You know, companies use this hash matching technology, which is like a fingerprint, like a human fingerprint, and each video is assigned an individual fingerprint. And then you can look for those like instantaneously and detect where they are and remove them if so motivated. So that's just devastating and so upsetting that they're not doing it and that they're proactively recommending it to children. They could also even prevent it from being uploaded in the first place with the technology, if they wanted to. Not even someone puts it there, find it, take it down. They could just block it altogether. So that's so upsetting and frustrating, I can't even imagine.
- [04:53]
C
And I'll say also with that person's account, not only the video, I mean, she has different videos of her crying. And some of the things that I probably can't say here, that is just that bad. That account is still up.
- [05:09]
B
And I also just struggle to understand why a platform that allowed those videos at all would say that's an appropriate place for a 13 year old.
- [05:19]
A
That's what I want to get to, is they tell us that it's safe right now with Instagram teens. Can you speak to it all what you've observed, like the difference between what they say they're doing to protect kids or what they say about the safety of the platform and what is reality,
- [05:35]
C
what they say versus what they do. If they were really serious about Instagram teens, that account that I'm speaking about, all 40, 50 or more of her accounts, they would all be gone. So, again, if I can find it, and without even really looking for it, I can just type in, I'm just searching Instagram. And her account comes right up, and about six rows down, there's the video. For a long time, I thought, because I didn't know how the algorithms work, that someone had sent that to her, and that wasn't true. And when I did the. When we did the 60 Minutes interview, and when I said that that was nowhere near true, those algorithms sent that to her, and her and her friends just thought it was funny. So they exchanged the video again just to get a laugh.
- [06:23]
A
It shows how much they're pushing it, the fact that it's continuing to get the engagement, that they continue to lie.
- [06:29]
C
Yeah. I mean, because again, we think, and people think, well, this is a child problem, or it's a parent's problem or poor parenting, and why don't we know? But who knew? Only Meta knew, only they knew what was going on. Until Frances Hogan in October of 21, decided to share with the world. Thank God for her. That we now know was happening to our children. We had no idea. We had come from the beach five, six days before with England, just happiest
- [06:59]
D
kid you ever want to see, and excited. And again, we thought it was just a platform where she was connecting with her friends and she had given us all her passwords. So we knew she was like, I have nothing to hide. Dad would check her phone when she was at school. So it wasn't like she was hiding anything. But we just didn't know where to look. It wasn't until after she passed that we found those horrific things and how she was feeling and just taking images from her birthday that had just passed a month ago. And she said how she didn't feel beautiful anymore. And she said, like Instagram. And, you know, social media sees me one way, but then she sees herself another way. And she had altered one of her pictures to make herself seem skinnier. And England was by no means overweight or out of shape, and we just couldn't see what she felt. And I think it was just the pressures to feel perfect on social media.
- [08:06]
C
And when I looked through her phone and once Frances Hagen exposed the truth, and you started seeing these different specialists, professional people come on cnn, msnbc, all the different news channels, and then they showed how it causes especially teenage girls to cut themselves. And when I remember going through her phone and I had saved pictures, she had pictures on her phone where she Was cutting herself. And Brandi would do her hair every day. She was with us every day and never saw it.
- [08:38]
D
So she also had a place on her phone that he found. It was some locked notes. I didn't even know back then that you can lock a note. And of course, we had different ways of finding out what. What password maybe she had. And then that's where we found most of her, I guess we call journal entries.
- [08:57]
C
So one day I went to the house after this happened and just sat down and started going through her phone again. And that's when I discovered locknote, the very first password that I put in unlock the note. So this is how innocent and pure and loving and trusting this child was. But I'll read to you what it says. It says emotional description is what she typed in. It's only what the media sees. I show people what they want to see. But behind the social media life, nobody knows the real me and how much I struggle to make sure everyone's good, even though I'm not. If it's not one thing, it's the other. And when things are going wrong for me, I just become so suicidal. And I just need that emotional support. I don't want anyone feeling bad for me just to support my choices I make in life. I want somebody to help me through my mental struggle. Because if no one's there, who do I have? And about 11 days later, our child was gone. That was posted in August of 2020. That was not posted locked in her notes.
- [10:06]
A
Thank you for sharing that. And we talked to Lori Shot last week. And the way she described what Anna Lee was writing in her journals before she passed sounds just like that. And what were these girls absorbing from these platforms right before and throughout that time was what was being pushed to them by that algorithm.
- [10:28]
D
So sad. Because the community that we have made with these parents, when we tell them our stories and we share our stories with them, they all sound so similar. Like you were thinking that they were great and come to find out they were struggling. And yet social media comes up over and over again, and we wonder why they didn't tell us. But they didn't know. They didn't. It was. They didn't know how to express their feelings.
- [10:57]
C
It's like they grew up with this. And so the way that they feel, in my opinion, they don't know it's not the right feeling to feel because they've been exposed to it for so long and so many years of their life, they don't realize that's not a Natural feeling. Like I grew up with playing basketball or running outside, riding a bike, enjoying what everything we saw from coming to Vegas to going on cruises with England to just taking her all over the world, her favorite restaurants. That's one of the reasons,
- [11:30]
D
What we failed to realize sometimes as adults is they didn't know what was going on and afraid maybe to tell us that we would take the device away to where they wouldn't be able to get on, so better not to say anything. And who they shared it with was other friends. And then we found out that other friends didn't want to snitch on how certain, you know, things that were told, like how she said she didn't feel like being here anymore. And one other friends were like, oh, you're, you know, your mom and dad are going to wonder what they did wrong. And she was like, well, if ever I harm myself, tell them that it wasn't their fault. So we were like, you know, if we knew those things ahead of time. And the friends thought they were helping by keeping that secret. And today we know that. If you know something, say something.
- [12:17]
B
Yeah. And it's just so upsetting too, because Meta knew it was bad for preteen and teenage girls like that. You talked about Frances Haugen in the Facebook papers and the data that's come out like they knew that girl. This happened to teenage girls, in particular preteens that being on Instagram caused depression and caused them to feel a different way about themselves than they did in their normal everyday lives. And that data is going to come out during these trials. And can you even begin to describe what it would feel like to see, like, Adam Mosseri be asked those questions about their knowledge of it or Mark Zuckerberg their knowledge of it?
- [13:05]
C
Look at our children in pictures because we don't have them to hug or to say, hey, dad, can I get my nails done? You know, to know that these people knew what the hell that they were doing and decided to choose the prophets over the lives of children and this devastating feeling that we're going to live with the rest of our lives, it's hard to describe because of the love that we share with all of our children. But England being the baby and you just want to just spoil her and just love on her every day. It's hard to stand there and see all these children that are gone for no reason whatsoever because of the end, the way that they intentionally. Even though he was told by his own team what it was doing to children through their own research. And Mark Zuckerberg still chose to carry on and then to know that he only valued our children's Life at only 270 bucks. So it makes you angry when you want to sit there and do an interview like we're doing now, or talk about England. It's mighty hard when you're emotional and you really realize why you're standing there. That was tough. And the number of interviews and the number of things that we have done, they've all been tough. But yesterday just hit and hurt so bad that the anger wants to come out. You keep it inside because you try to be different than what they are.
- [14:43]
A
Do you think that's because we're getting so close to hearing from these people?
- [14:47]
D
It's so hard because we're fighting for our kids even though they're gone. We're still Mama, we're still dad. The world sometimes doesn't seem like they're listening either. We have some that are still blaming parents for these things, that the companies knew what they were doing, and yet they still support these big tech companies. And it's not that we're trying to take these big companies away. We just want to make it safer. So why does everybody feel that that's wrong for Congress to listen to him over and over again testifying and telling the same lies? And nothing is being done from not passing the Online Safety Act. It just gets shut down where you have the votes that you need, but still nothing is done. So it's like you're playing Ring around the Rosie, and yet kids are steadily getting harmed, and we feel like we have to fight. And it's like, ok, you already took what was most valuable to these parents. What else do you need to change? And that's all we're asking for. We're asking for you to make your platform safer. And they're thinking that it's something that we're asking that is out of their
- [16:03]
C
reach, and it's not. To answer your question, I don't know what emotions are going to come out as more internal documents and for what they knew existed, you know, how are we going to feel? But more importantly to me, because we'll never have what we want in this lifetime, and that's our baby back. So to fight for other families and to get them to slow down a little bit, to listen to our stories, to hear what's truly out there and what's going on. My question has always been the day that Francis Hagen exposed the truth of what many of the congressional leaders assumed throughout the years, because they kept bringing him up there, Zuckerberg, and asked the questions, is your platform, are your platform safe for children? And the answer has always been yes. No different than he did January 31, 2024, when he sat in front of the world and apologized, fake apology, and lied again. And he knew at that time that the research from his own people existed. So why continue to. To lie in the harm children for profits for his personal back pocket?
- [17:10]
A
I think this is our opportunity to catch him in the lie.
- [17:13]
C
Yes. Can't wait until he gets on that stand.
- [17:16]
D
And I guess that answers the question that people want to know why. Why do we want to take them to court again? It's not about the money, it's about justice. We want them to be held like every other company who has a faulty product and who are harming Americans, kids, teens, parents. We want them to be held to the same standards as everyone else. You have a faulty product, fix it. And not just a for show fix, you know, you need to fix it to where you stop harming kids and children.
- [17:48]
C
If Instagram teens were so good, why are kids still dying? Why are we still losing children? And I guess the other thing that goes to my heart is that I know if I ever lie to my mom and dad and they love me, there was a consequence for that lie. So is the. Are the congressional leaders that in love with him or his money that there has not been a consequence for the lies that he is told? Why wasn't those platforms shut down the day that Francis Hagen exposed the truth? Why were they allowed to continue to operate? And now it's going on, what, five years this October that she exposed the truth and five years of more injuries and children's mental health.
- [18:40]
B
So you mentioned a little bit about what we did yesterday. Could you describe, like what we did yesterday? And I mean, you already talked a little bit about how hard of a day it was. So I don't want you to have to rehash that, but maybe just what it meant to you to be with the other parents.
- [18:57]
D
So yesterday at the parent vigil, when we stood outside the courthouse in Los Angeles, you felt the community of parents who are all fighting for the same thing at the same time. It's hard, but you know that your kid is doing a great thing. The face of change is the way I put it. We know all the things that have come down from civil rights. They had to have a pioneer. And that's the way I look at the parents that we stand in community with. As hard as it is to stay in there With a picture of your child knowing that you're not going home to them. We know that in the back of our hearts that we're fighting to save others. So that's what makes it worth it.
- [19:41]
C
The power of love is what the world should feel of what we felt yesterday. Grief and love is so intertwined with one another because you have love for that person that's gone, but you have nowhere to give it. You don't have them to give it to. The unity, the hearts of the families, people behind the scenes that help us all throughout. You guys, the media for being willing to be there, and there's so many other people that we probably don't even know that help us every single day get through this. Yesterday was one of the strongest, most powerful, most meaningful opportunities that we've had to express to the world our love and our grief, our children. And I thank all the families for sacrificing their feelings and their hearts to help bring about change. Finally, the courthouse doors are open. And, you know, we've tried through congressional means, we've tried through the phone calls or whatever means you have to call these companies to say, hey, can you make changes? None of that has worked. So just possibly justice and accountability will be heard and held this time.
- [21:00]
D
It was just powerful. And I know you saw some of us cry yesterday, and it was just the fact that our babies had to endure so much pain that we had no knowledge of. And we just want to save others. So thank you for being the eyes and ears for us, Nikki, in court.
- [21:19]
A
Sure.
- [21:21]
C
Thank you all for taking on every one of our stories, our love, our grief, our pain. And when we get a moment to wing it, we'll smile. If parents could just take a few minutes. If you allow your kids to have smartphones, great, wonderful. But if you allow them to get on these social media platforms, and I wish they stopped confusing people in the world. Social media versus the Internet. Social media is not the Internet. So if we can, if you allow them on any platform, regardless to what it is, do your research first to know what that platform brings to your child. What emotions, what feelings, what love, what hate, what's out there.
- [22:08]
D
And as an educator, I see it firsthand in the schools that parents just think because they're on it that they're not seeing the harms, but yet the same experience is not being held from a parent to a child. So know that whatever you're experiencing as a parent there, it's 10 times worse on their end. So just to know those things just
- [22:31]
A
so hard to even fathom that that would be true. And then when you tell people that, they're like, well, why would they do. Why would they want to do that? And you're like, that's a great question.
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B
But they do. Like, Toni, what you said, I feel like if we can break through this nugget of somehow parents separating, oh, I don't want my kid to get behind in technology because that's where the future is going. So then I need to give them all the stuff we have to teach. We have to help people understand. And now we even have research that shows that actually learning without all of that will not only prepare the brain to interact with technology later and become an engineer or a coder better than if you grow up with it all in your hand. They're two separate things. They're two separate environments. Instagram is not making you tech technically savvy. It's making you depressed and addicted. I really think parents want to break free from all of this and move into a different way of interacting with each other.
- [23:32]
D
It's just isolating our whole population. You look at it, it's like the kids stay more on the phones than socializing, or they. They would rather stay more on the phones than socialize or have a real conversation face to face. It's all changing so fast, and it's.
- [23:48]
C
But change is here. You know, we admire Australia, I think most recently Spain, and other countries that are stepping up and saying, hey, no phones in schools and children under 16, things of that sort. So we know that because of our. Your work, the things that we're bringing about, change is happening. Maybe not as quick here as it should be, but around the world it is. People are listening.
- [24:15]
A
We took more time than I thought, so. But thank you for this extra time.
- [24:18]
D
Thank you all so much.
- [24:19]
A
Beautiful day.
- [24:21]
D
Enjoyed spending time with you.
- [24:22]
C
We'll see you soon.