Avoiding Hard Conversations—When High-Performing Agile Teams Self-Destruct | Bernard Agrest

Summary

Episode Summary: Avoiding Hard Conversations—When High-Performing Agile Teams Self-Destruct | Bernard Agrest

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte engages in a profound conversation with Bernard Agreste, an experienced Agile Coach and Scrum Master. The discussion centers around the critical issue of how high-performing Agile teams can inadvertently undermine their success by avoiding difficult conversations. Bernard shares personal experiences, practical advice, and valuable lessons on fostering psychological safety and accountability within teams.

Introduction to the Guest and Topic

Bernard Agreste joins Vasco Duarte to delve into the dynamics of Agile teams, particularly focusing on the pitfalls that can lead to a team's self-destruction. The conversation begins with Bernard highlighting a book that profoundly impacted his approach to team management.

The Influence of "The Six Types of Working Genius"

[01:37] Bernard Agreste: “The core idea is pretty simple. He basically lays out that every person has a natural quote, unquote genius in certain phases of work and that when you operate outside of those geniuses, depending on how in or out of them you are, you as an employee can feel either frustration or burnout.”

Bernard discusses “The Six Types of Working Genius” by Patrick Leoncini, emphasizing how understanding individual strengths can enhance team cohesion and performance. He explains that recognizing each team member's unique contributions helps in assigning roles that align with their natural abilities, thereby reducing frustration and preventing burnout. Bernard underscores the book's relevance for Scrum Masters, suggesting it as essential reading for those involved in coaching and team development.

The Story of a High-Performing Team's Decline

Bernard narrates a personal experience where a seemingly stellar team began to falter after the departure of a key member and the subsequent hiring of a replacement who struggled to perform.

[04:13] Bernard Agreste: “The habit that I've seen destroy teams the fastest is avoiding hard conversations, and not just avoiding the conversation, but then everything that that brings up in avoiding those conversations.”

He explains that the team's initial high performance was undermined by the avoidance of addressing the new member's lack of productivity. Instead of confronting the issue, the team collectively took on the struggling member's workload, which temporarily masked the problem but ultimately led to decreased morale and disengagement.

The Role of Psychological Safety and Accountability

Bernard identifies psychological safety and accountability as foundational elements for effective team functioning.

[07:15] Bernard Agreste: “And then there's the aspect of thinking of the consequences, the impact on others and how that is affecting them, how they feel about the situation as well.”

He emphasizes that without a culture where team members feel safe to voice concerns and hold each other accountable, small issues can escalate into significant problems. The lack of hard conversations not only affects individual performance but also the overall team dynamic, leading to a decline in productivity and cohesion.

Strategies for Addressing Performance Issues

Bernard provides actionable strategies for Scrum Masters to tackle difficult conversations constructively:

1. Preparation is Key

   [09:16] Bernard Agreste: “What's the organizational context that I have with this person? Do I have a good relationship? Do I have a bad relationship? Why is the relationship rocky?”

   He advises thoroughly preparing for conversations by understanding the organizational context and the history with the individual. Gathering factual evidence about performance issues and being ready to discuss specific examples is crucial.

2. Approach as a Thought Partner

   [10:39] Bernard Agreste: “When you're coming in, you're coming in prepared as a thought partner, not just like, a hey, I'm dropping this in your lap and I'm walking away.”

   Bernard stresses the importance of approaching the conversation collaboratively, positioning oneself as a partner in finding solutions rather than merely pointing out problems. This fosters a more open and productive dialogue.

3. Timeliness Matters

   [10:39] Bernard Agreste: “Don't let it go for a long time because the problem with difficult conversations that the longer they go, the harder they get.”

   Addressing issues promptly helps prevent the buildup of resentment and ensures that the problem is managed before it affects the entire team.

The Consequences of Avoiding Hard Conversations

Bernard reflects on the repercussions of not addressing performance issues:

[11:27] Bernard Agreste: “I think this is the culture stuff, right? I think that's why I keep talking about it is if you don't address it, it's going to be a problem for everyone at some point.”

He observes that neglecting to engage in necessary conversations can lead to a toxic team culture where frustration and disengagement silently erode team effectiveness.

Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Bernard Agreste's experience underscores the importance of addressing performance issues directly and constructively to maintain team health and productivity. Key takeaways from the episode include:

• Understand Individual Strengths: Utilize tools like "The Six Types of Working Genius" to align team roles with individual strengths.
• Foster Psychological Safety: Create an environment where team members feel safe to express concerns and hold each other accountable.
• Prepare for Difficult Conversations: Approach performance issues with preparation, empathy, and a collaborative mindset.
• Act Timely: Address problems early to prevent escalation and maintain team morale.
• Promote Accountability: Encourage a culture where accountability is shared and supported by the entire team.

Bernard's insights provide Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches with practical strategies to navigate and resolve the inevitable challenges that arise within high-performing teams, ensuring sustained success and a positive team environment.

Transcript

[Vasko]

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[Bernard]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our team Tuesday. This week we have with us Bernard Agreste. Hey Bernard, welcome back.

[Bernard Agreste]

Thanks Vasco. Great to be back.

[Bernard]

So Bernard, on Tuesdays we talk about teams, but as usual we first start with a book because we get so much lessons from books and inspiration. So share with us. What was the book that most inspired you in your career?

[Bernard Agreste]

Yeah, I came across this book about two or three years ago. It is called the six Types of Working Genius by Patrick Leoncini. The core idea is pretty simple. He basically lays out that every person has a natural quote, unquote genius in certain phases of work and that when you operate outside of those geniuses, depending on how in or out of them you are, you as an employee can feel either frustration or burnout. And then he kind of talks about six geniuses. Wonder, invention, discernment, galvanizing, enablement and tenacity. And kind of talks about what those core skills and competencies of the person are that has those geniuses and then how that can be applied. I've read this book at least I think three times at this point. I learned something from it. Every time I do it really helps me see why clicks, why certain teams can like click together and then why others might struggle. And I think Scrum Masters should read this book because we do so much coaching, we do so much iterating. It really helps you develop the tools and language to under team your, to understand your team's strengths, to help you spot gaps, to help people thrive in their roles. Right. Even something as simple as hey, I'm noticing that you're not really enjoying this part of the work. Like, if you're thinking about like a more Kanban flow. Right. Okay, great. Well, what would you enjoy more? And then there's a way that we can structure that so that that person, even though Kanban, everyone kind of takes for themselves. That person has a little bit more flexibility to take things that really help them thrive so they're not feeling burnt out in the work.

[Bernard]

Yeah. And it helps to understand and also to integrate different types of people into the work as a team. Right. So definitely the link is in the show notes the six types of working genius. And yeah, go and check it out. Absolutely. Must read from the same author that wrote Five Dysfunctions of a Team, which is one of the books that is the most referred to here on the podcast as well. But today's Tuesday, Bernard. So we talk about teams, obviously, and how sometimes they become their own worst enemies. So talk to us about the team. Walk us through, you know, what was happening at the time, just a little bit of context so that we know what kind of team it is, the size and so on, and then walk us through how those little behaviors or patterns kind of started emerging, developed over time, and eventually created the problem for the team.

[Bernard Agreste]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think even before I tell you the story, I think in my experience at least, the teams that kind of start self destructing, they do so because of really one or two things, which is lack of psychological safety in the organizational level or lack of accountability at the organization level, and sometimes both. And so the habit that I've seen destroy teams the fastest is avoiding hard conversations, and not just avoiding the conversation, but then everything that that brings up in avoiding those conversations. And so when I was a teacher for America, I was leading a team that I still consider the highest performing team I've ever worked with. I mean, we had subject matter experts who, like, really knew their stuff. We had a vendor that we trusted. We trusted each other. Honestly, it was just fun to work with each other. And one key member, as always, found a new opportunity. They left. I knew it was going to be a terminal and experience the classic forming, storming, norming. But we weren't ready for someone who actually wasn't up for the job itself. And so at first, we were giving grace. It seemed like he was getting up to speed. And to be fair.

[Bernard]

So you hired a new person. I understood.

[Bernard Agreste]

We hired a new person. Yes. Sorry. Just to make that clear. Yep. So one person left and we hired someone else. And like, to be fair. Right. Like, there was a lot of Work that went on to it. It was not easy work by any stretch of the imagination, but, like, you know, two, three months had gone by. There wasn't really improvement. And then we had gotten back to the cycle of work where that staff member really, really needed to be delivering work for both the flow of his job, but also the dependencies on other teams. And it wasn't happening. And so instead of addressing it, instead of having that hard conversation, everyone, me included, right? I'm not going to say I wasn't part of this, kind of just said, hey, we're going to take on this guy's work to make sure that things aren't falling. And so we were avoiding that hard conversation of, like, holding this person accountable. And it worked for a while. Like, things got delivered and people started getting frustrated. I could tell that morale was dropping. People stopped attending. What we had was an optional vendor meeting, you know, I think every Wednesday. It was truly optional. But, like, at that point, no one had ever not shown up. And now we had people just not attending at all. And so it was a really clear sign that the team was just checked out. And we never exploded, right? There wasn't ever a big moment of like, oh, my God, it was just a team that kind of faded. And I think that really speaks to kind of what I wanted to bring up, the top, which is psychological safety and accountability, which, because we also knew, unfortunately, that the conditions in the environment at the time that we were working for the organization at large were such that if we had said something, it would have probably just been ignored, or we would have just told to figure out, just figure it out yourselves, do it yourselves. And so we kind of did that. But in doing that, we then we avoided those hard conversations. And ultimately the team really suffered because of that.

[Bernard]

And one of the most important conversations we must have is that of how everybody is contributing to the team, not from a place of judgment or criticism, but from a place of handling the imbalance together as a team, right? Because teams are not perfect 100% of the time. They might be perfect sometimes, and they might be quite problematic some other times. And it is in those hard times that we really demonstrate the ability to form, to come together as a team and to address, in this case, a performance issue. It could have been something else. And the impact would probably be the same. When you look back at that story and if you could just walk into a time machine and go back there, start that story from the beginning again, what would you do differently? Bernard?

[Bernard Agreste]

Yeah, well, I think one, I would say, hey, can we make sure that guy never leaves? Because he was great. But I would say that. I think I would. And I think, again, I have the language now and just experience that comfort that comes with experience in being able to come to a senior leader and say things in a nonjudgmental way and say, hey, I need you to be aware that your employee is not pulling their weight right now. And here's what we are doing at the moment. But this is going to impact xyz. And there is no comfort of, well, just don't worry about it. It's not going to get done. It won't impact anything. The work that he owns is really quite. And you, as his leader, need to make sure he's accountable. And I'm there to help you with that. Right. Because I think that's part of the role itself, is like, it's not just about, here's the bad news, figure it out. It's, here's the bad news, let's work together to make sure that we can write it.

[Bernard]

Yeah. And how would you prepare such a conversation? Because that's not one you enter to cold.

[Bernard Agreste]

No, no, no, no, no. That is a conversation you absolutely need to be prepping for. I think one. Right. What's the organizational context that I have with this person? Do I have a good relationship? Do I have a bad relationship? Why is the relationship rocky? If it is rocky, right? Because then even. Even something as simple as that will change how I approach the conversation. But then, you know, you need to have your facts free, right? Like, here's the things that have been not delivered or that, you know, somebody else has picked up on. How many times does it happen? What would have the impact been if we didn't do that work and pick it up for him? And then, Right. Like, it's not also enough to just say, like, hey, I'm going to come in, not trying anything and tell you to, like, fix it. What have I done as the scrum master, the pm, the po, whatever it is, what have I done to support this employee? Have I had coaching with him? Have I explained to him the processes? Does he understand that he's not doing something that he's supposed to be doing? Right? Like, once I've done that, that's when I have that conversation. And I have to be prepared for that conversation to be tense and maybe even just honestly a bad one. But the preparation is to make sure that when you're coming in, you're coming in prepared as a thought partner, not just like, a hey, I'm dropping this in your lap and I'm walking away.

[Bernard]

Yeah. And one of the, of course, implicit aspects of that is that don't let it go for a long time because the problem with difficult conversations that the longer they go, the harder they get. Also because there's expectations, implicit or not, from the other person that everything is fine because we haven't had a conversation. And also because now you're also trying to manage the resentment and frustration of other team members. Right. It's not just about what one team member is doing that might not be carrying the weight, but it's also the aspect of thinking of the consequences, the impact on others and how that is affecting them, how they feel about the situation as well. And it can easily escalate to be a whole team problem, as you illustrated in the story.

[Bernard Agreste]

I mean, yeah, it became, I think this is the culture stuff, right? I think that's why I keep talking about it is if you don't address it, it's going to be a problem for everyone at some point.

[Bernard]

Absolutely. Well said. Thank you for sharing that story with us, Barnard.

[Bernard Agreste]

Of course.

[Vasko]

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[Bernard]

We really hope you liked our show and if you did, why not rate this podcast on Stitcher or itunes? Share this podcast and let other Scrum Masters know about this valuable resource for their work.

[Vasko]

Remember that sharing is is carrying.