Beyond the Backlog—How Great Product Owners Embrace Team Collaboration | Carmen Jurado

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches Episode Summary: "Beyond the Backlog—How Great Product Owners Embrace Team Collaboration" featuring Carmen Jurado

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode, host Osco engages in a deep conversation with Carmen Guerra Jurado, an experienced Agile Coach and newly minted Product Owner. The discussion centers around the pivotal role of Product Owners in Agile environments, exploring both the pitfalls and the exemplary practices that foster successful team collaboration and project outcomes.

Identifying Product Owner Anti-Patterns

Carmen begins by sharing her experiences with less effective Product Owners, highlighting the challenges that arise from inexperience and lack of team engagement.

[01:50] Carmen: "I had this product owner who was new, really inexperienced. The team was basically walking all over them. He was doing everything... the team didn't take any ownership about the Scrum events."

This scenario underscores a common anti-pattern where a Product Owner becomes a bottleneck, handling all tasks single-handedly without empowering the team.

Strategies for Overcoming Challenges

To address these challenges, Carmen and her Product Owner implemented several strategies aimed at revitalizing team dynamics and improving backlog management.

1. Backlog Refinement and Cleanup

   Faced with a legacy backlog of over 300 messy items, Carmen and the Product Owner collaborated to streamline the backlog:

   [02:30] Carmen: "We sorted through the backlog, discussed every item with stakeholders, and threw out those without clear details to start fresh."

2. Prioritized Backlog and Idea "Tank"

   Introducing a prioritized backlog alongside a separate "tank" for less refined ideas helped maintain focus on critical tasks while still acknowledging future possibilities.

   [03:15] Carmen: "I introduced the concept of having a prioritized backlog and a separate tank for less refined ideas. It worked well, even though it's somewhat controversial in the Agile community."

3. Stakeholder Mapping

   Conducting a stakeholder mapping session allowed the team to identify and realign stakeholder influence, fostering healthier interactions.

   [04:10] Carmen: "Identifying where stakeholders were and where we wanted them to be led to insightful conversations, especially with the CFO who realized they were micromanaging unknowingly."

Fostering Team Ownership and Collaboration

A critical shift was made towards involving the entire team in Scrum events, distributing responsibilities for preparing and facilitating sessions like refinements and reviews. This approach not only lightened the Product Owner's load but also cultivated a sense of ownership and accountability within the team.

[05:42] Carmen: "We rotated responsibilities for preparing and facilitating the refinements and the reviews, making it a team effort. Although it was forced initially, the team embraced it over time."

Characteristics of Great Product Owners

Transitioning to discuss the traits of exceptional Product Owners, Carmen emphasizes the importance of mindset over mere technical skills. She values Product Owners who:

• Stand with Their Team: Taking responsibility for failures while crediting the team for successes.

  [08:07] Carmen: "The best Product Owners were the ones that really stood with their team. They took responsibility where things went wrong and put the spotlight on the team when things went well."

• Embody Agile Values and Principles: Understanding and internalizing Agile values rather than just adhering to frameworks.

  [09:30] Carmen: "Great Product Owners truly understand the Agile values and principles. It's about feeling them and using them as guidelines."

• Promote Openness and Safety: Encouraging transparent conversations and making implicit agreements explicit to foster a collaborative environment.

  [10:20] Carmen: "Having conversations about how we want to work together, making the implicit explicit, is one of the best things you can do."

Carmen’s Journey to Becoming a Product Owner

Carmen shares her personal transition from an Agile Coach and Scrum Master to a Product Owner, driven by a desire to experience product ownership firsthand and challenge herself beyond her comfort zone.

[10:31] Carmen: "I wanted to challenge myself and step out of my comfort zone... to be a Product Owner of an AI team, which is really new to me."

Her proactive approach includes continuous learning, as evidenced by her engagement with literature like Hendrik Knieberg's Generative AI in a Nutshell, to better navigate her new role.

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with mutual encouragement between Osco and Carmen, highlighting the value of sharing experiences within the Agile community to foster growth and mutual support.

[12:56] Osco: "We'll put the link in the show notes so that people can easily find you and connect with you... we grow as a community. We learn from each other."

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Key Takeaways:

• Avoid Product Owner Anti-Patterns: Prevent bottlenecking by empowering the team and avoiding over-reliance on a single individual.

• Effective Backlog Management: Regularly refine and prioritize the backlog, discarding unclear items to maintain focus and clarity.

• Stakeholder Engagement: Conduct stakeholder mapping to manage influence and improve collaboration.

• Foster Team Ownership: Distribute responsibilities to encourage team engagement and accountability in Scrum events.

• Embody Agile Principles: Prioritize mindset and values over rigid adherence to frameworks for truly effective Agile leadership.

This episode serves as a valuable resource for Scrum Masters, Product Owners, and Agile practitioners seeking to enhance team collaboration and drive successful project outcomes through effective Product Ownership.

Transcript

[Vasco]

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon. Hello everybody.

[Osco]

Welcome to our TGIF and product owner episode. This week here on the podcast, we have with us Carmen Guerra Jurado. Hey Carmen, welcome back.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Hi Osco. Thank you.

[Osco]

It's great to have you once more. And we're going to talk product owners because the product owner is one of the most critical roles in this day's software development environments. So it is of course our responsibility to understand that role, but also to understand the patterns that work well and don't work so well for the role. We'll talk about great product owners in a second. But to get us started, Carmen, share with us what might have been potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Well, I've had quite a luxury in the sense that I've had really good product owners in my career, but I guess I'm just gonna share one of the worst experience I guess I had, or worst examples that I experienced. I think that's a better way of putting it. But again, I've been really lucky because most of the product owners I've had were amazing. So I had this product owner who was, who was new, really inexperienced. The team was basically walking all over them. He was doing everything. He was preparing the reviews and not just the slides, but also hosting them. He was preparing all the refinements, I guess not the retros at that point, but he would have done that as well because if he didn't do it, it just wouldn't happen because the team didn't take any ownership about the Scrum events. They were only interested in coding and then they really didn't see any value in the other activities, which again is a very familiar Story for most Scrum masters and product owners, I feel this poor product owner, he started with a team that was not engaged. He started with a legacy backlog of over 300 items. It was a mess. What we did was together, we sorted through the backlog, we discussed every item with the stakeholders that were connected to them. If there were issues that didn't have any clear details, we just threw them out. We kind of wanted to start with a clean slate. And the product owner also kind of had to deal with his strong willed and really opinionated stakeholders, which included the cfo who was kind of basically acting as the product owner and was treating the actual product owner as some sort of scribe. So, yeah, so we went through this whole journey cleaning up the backlog. I introduced the concept of having like a prioritized backlog and having like a separate. I called it a tank for less refined ideas. And this worked really well for him. Although I know that it's kind of like a controversial concept in the agile world to have like two backlogs, but for him it worked really well. And I think one of the most influential things we did was I did a stakeholder mapping session with him and the most valuable step in that was kind of identifying not where the stakeholders were, but where he wanted them to be. So, for example, the CFO that was acting as the actual product owner, even though he wasn't, he, he was in the. If you have the, if you can like visualize the quadrant of the stakeholder map, he was like in high power, high interest quadrant, but the product owner actually wanted them in the high power, low interest quadrant. And that led to this really, really insightful conversation between the product owner and the CFO where the CFO kind of realized that they were micromanaging without them realizing beforehand. So it was this huge eye opener for them both. And so that was really, that was amazing when they both found that out. And in the end, we also involved the team more in the Scrum event. So we kind of rotated responsibilities for like preparing and facilitating the refinements and the reviews and that kind of made the team take more ownership and it really felt more like a team effort. And yes, it was really forced in the beginning and it didn't feel like it, but in the end they really embraced it. So. Yeah.

[Osco]

Did you ever discuss that with the team? Like, what, the direction you were taking?

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Yeah, every single step. And we discussed why we were doing this and the product owner, and he was unexperienced, but he was so honest and vulnerable. Also in his inexperience. Like, I feel that I'm doing everything, and I feel that if I don't plan the refinement, it doesn't happen. And do you guys feel that the refinement is useful? Yeah, sure. Okay, well, then let's take some steps into making sure that we make the refinement as efficient but also as effective as possible. And we can only do that if everyone cooperates. And I feel that that was the great thing.

[Osco]

So you took it to the team a little bit as well, Right? Like, you were not trying to fix it without the team. You understood the team wasn't necessarily the most engaged or motivated to work on refinement, for example. But you didn't do it without them.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Absolutely. I feel you can't do it without them. Right. It's like, well, you can try.

[Osco]

Right?

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Well, you can try. That is very true. You can try. But I like the Lisa atk, like, take it to the team. I always try to take it to the team.

[Vasco]

Yeah, absolutely. And this take it to the team.

[Osco]

Has become a bit of a mantra here on the podcast, and I think we. We should always take that with us as scrum masters when something needs addressing.

[Vasco]

Take it to the team.

[Osco]

And of course, here, the team means the product owner as well.

[Vasco]

So let's not forget that that was a.

[Osco]

A great story of appeal. That wasn't that bad after all. Because it. It. It's. It or the product owner's vulnerability and lack of experience actually was an asset in that moment of change for the team. Right, because the changes happened because the product owner needed it, and then you guys were able to involve the team in those changes.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's like I said, I've been really lucky. I haven't had horrible product owners.

[Vasco]

Oh, you should listen to some of.

[Osco]

The Friday episodes and see what others have had to deal with.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

I will. I definitely will. All right.

[Osco]

But of course, as we said, there are not only bad product owners, there are also some amazing product owners out there. So, Carmen, let's talk about the best product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Yeah, so I've had several. I wouldn't be able to pinpoint one, but I feel that the bestest product owners that I've worked with, where it wasn't about skills or tools or techniques, I feel that the best product owners were the ones that really stood with their team. Right. So not stood in front of their team, not stood behind their team, but, like, those were the people that took responsibility where things went wrong, but then they put the spotlight on the team when things went well, so when successes were accomplished. And that's something I really aspire to as well, because it's funny, but I recently took a career step that a former colleague of mine would say I joined the dark side. So after a couple of. I think, yeah. How long have I been doing this? I think eight years. I actually started as a product owner three months ago. So yeah. And one of the things I really focus on is being there for my team while also trying to achieve our goals together with our stakeholders, our users, our clients. And I'm just really conscious that I want us to do that as a team with shared responsibility. So I will have the tough conversations with the stakeholders about priorities or potential delays, but when we achieve things, it's going to be a team effort. And that is really my vision as a newly product owner. Because from what I've noticed at least or in my experience, great product owners, it's about their mindset, right? They really truly understand the Agile values and the principles. It's not about knowing the frameworks like Scrum and Kanban and xp, but it's feeling them and being able to use those values and principles as kind of guidelines for themselves. And then when I think about it, it kind of all comes back to that openness and that safety. Right? Having conversations about how we want to work together, making the implicit explicit. I feel that's one of the best things you can do whether you're a product owner, a Scrum Master or any role, any other role.

[Osco]

So out of curiosity, why did you decide to take on a product owner role?

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Well, I've been a Scrum Master and an Agile coach and a trainer for about eight years and I also trained or I also give the course, the PSP01 course. But it's all based on my experience of watching product owners and about the theory. Like in theory I know what a great product owner, how they should act. I had no actual experience, so I really wanted to challenge myself and step out of my comfort zone, which is, you know, being an agile coach in these last couple of years is really my comfort zone. You can just drop me. Can you facilitate a session? Sure. But being a product owner, no. And mostly it's not even the product ownership for me, it's being a product owner of an AI team, which is really new to me. So I am actually reading another book, it's from Hendrik Knieberg. I don't know if you know it.

[Osco]

Yeah, I'll put The link in the show notes, generative AI in a nutshell.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Yes. He really explains AI in simple concepts, which for me was very useful again as the newly product owner of an AI team. But yeah, I wanted to actually experience it. I wanted to go through the trenches with the team and be like, okay, I know in theory how a product owner should act, but how would I act in this situation and see if I would act the way I would expect the product owner to act if I were the Scrum master.

[Osco]

Absolutely.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

It's been an eye opener, I have to say.

[Osco]

Let me do the public invite here. When you have some stories to share, let's get you back on the podcast and you can do the whole podcast from the product owner perspective. We also have a version of the interview that goes through that.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Give me a couple of more months.

[Vasco]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Osco]

Take your time. The invitation is on whenever you're ready.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Definitely.

[Osco]

Carmen, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for sharing all of those stories with us. If people want to connect with you, where should they go?

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

My LinkedIn page, I think you have the link there. Just DM me. You can slide in my DMs.

[Vasco]

That's what they say these days, right?

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Absolutely.

[Osco]

We'll put the link in the show notes so that people can easily find you and connect with you. And you heard it, Carmen. Just send a few follow up questions or ask more details about a story that you heard, whatever that is, do get in touch. We grow as a community. We learn from each other and of course we help each other also in practice and we never know when that's necessary. Carmen, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[Carmen Guerra Jurado]

Thank you for having me. Vasco.

[Vasco]

Hey friend. Thank you for staying here. Is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit. If you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged. Especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzwords and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen in Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day. Then 19th and 20th, the conference day and Tallinn, Estonia is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a share ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leaders in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his this session the very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Adic, who's taking an unconventional look at product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, for example Sixven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with the contract negotiation?

[Osco]

How agile is that?

[Vasco]

But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on, for example AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms, and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile Business track where we will talk about, for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract. Literally. I mean, I already told you about Svendeet's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now, whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators, and Agile developer for the builders making Agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the Scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who just like you, want to grow, want to share and want to learn by challenging the ideas that don't work anymore. At the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas and the energy to take your own agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the full program and grab your ticket [e-mail] I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May.

[Osco]

I'll see you.