Beyond the Scrum Master Role: Signs of Team Maturity | Anuj Ojha

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode: Beyond the Scrum Master Role: Signs of Team Maturity | Anuj Ojha
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Anuj Ojha
Release Date: March 6, 2025

---

Introduction

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte welcomes Anuj Ojha, a seasoned Scrum Master and Agile Coach, to discuss the intricate facets of team maturity beyond the traditional Scrum Master role. The conversation delves deep into effective retrospective formats, the true meaning of success for Scrum Masters, and the common anti-patterns that hinder team growth.

---

Favorite Retrospective Format

Timestamp: [01:25]

Anuj begins by sharing his favorite retrospective format, emphasizing a structured yet empathetic approach to team reflections. He recounts a challenging situation where interpersonal conflicts within a team necessitated a more nuanced retrospective method.

Key Elements of Anuj’s Retrospective Format:

1. Personal Reflection:

   • Each team member completes a Google form with two sections:
     • Positive Feedback: Highlighting what they appreciate about each team member, fostering empathy and understanding.
     • Constructive Feedback: Identifying one area for improvement for each team member.

2. Data Collection and Discussion:

   • Gathering all inputs to understand overarching themes and individual sentiments.

3. Curtain Raiser Session:

   • Vasco reads the feedback to the team.
   • Encourages honest and open communication, allowing team members to react naturally without suppression.
   • Anuj emphasizes:

     “It’s a safe space. Share what you feel.” ([02:30])

4. Feedback and Voting Replacement:

   • Instead of traditional voting, team members provide feedback on each other’s input, such as:

     “You have been too honest” or “I think you felt offended.” ([04:10])

5. Oath Ceremony:

   • Team members commit to specific changes and solicit support from their peers:

     “I have a problem and I accept it from my teammates...” ([06:50])

Anuj also shares a retrospective approach he dislikes:

• Sandwich Approach: Starting and ending with positive feedback but causing confusion in delivering constructive criticism.

Defining Success as a Scrum Master

Timestamp: [07:19]

The conversation transitions to the core question:

“What does success mean for you as a Scrum Master?”

Anuj’s Perspective on Success:

1. Enabling Team Autonomy:

   • Success is when the Scrum Master becomes unnecessary as the team becomes self-organizing and high-performing.
   • Anuj states:

     “If you are the one who should not be needed anymore... it means you are the hot property in the market.” ([07:45])

2. Avoiding Anti-Patterns:

   • Anuj outlines several pitfalls that Scrum Masters should steer clear of to ensure team maturity and personal effectiveness.

Exploring Anti-Patterns

Timestamp: [09:00]

Anuj delves into common anti-patterns that undermine the Scrum Master role:

1. Master of Scrum:

   • Believing they possess the ultimate solutions without questioning or adapting.
   • Quote:

     “You are the master of Scrum... you speak good English.” ([08:15])

2. Rigidly Concluding Meetings:

   • Forcing meetings to end on time regardless of the discussion’s quality.
   • Anuj advises:

     “Be in the moment, be fluid and make sense out of it.” ([09:40])

3. Feeling Superior:

   • Acting as the power center, manipulating conversations to assert dominance.
   • Quote:

     “Don’t feel yourself superior than others.” ([10:05])

4. Misusing Authority:

   • Leveraging connections or authority improperly to influence team dynamics.
   • Anuj warns:

     “They talk about powerful strengths instead of really solving the problem.” ([10:30])

5. Badmouthing Waterfall:

   • Dismissing other methodologies instead of recognizing their foundational PDCA (Plan-Do-Check-Act) elements.
   • Insight:

     “Agile or Scrum is continuous PDCA.” ([11:00])

Vasco’s Reflections

Timestamp: [12:17]

Vasco complements Anuj’s insights by emphasizing:

• People Over Process:

  “At the end of the day it is people working together... sometimes the solution isn't process.” ([11:50])

• Holistic Problem-Solving: Recognizing that issues may stem from interpersonal dynamics rather than process shortcomings.

---

Conclusion

Anuj Ojha provides a profound exploration of what constitutes true success for Scrum Masters, highlighting the importance of fostering team autonomy and avoiding behaviors that can stunt team growth. His favorite retrospective format serves as a practical tool for addressing team conflicts and enhancing mutual understanding. By identifying and mitigating common anti-patterns, Scrum Masters can better support their teams towards maturity and high performance.

Final Thoughts:

The episode underscores that the essence of Agile lies in nurturing people and their interactions, rather than rigid adherence to processes. Success, as portrayed by Anuj, is not just about facilitating Scrum practices but about empowering teams to thrive independently.

Quote to Remember:

“We are there to help people.” — Anuj Ojha ([12:10])

---

For those seeking to elevate their Scrum Mastery and foster truly mature Agile teams, this episode offers valuable strategies and reflections drawn from Anuj’s extensive experience in the field.

Transcript

[Vasco]

Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon. Hello everybody. Welcome to our success Thursday. This week we have with us Anuj Ozha. Hey Anuj. Welcome back.

[Anuj Ozha]

Hello Vaskov. Looking forward to this conversation.

[Fran]

Absolutely.

[Vasco]

And Thursday is of course the big.

[Fran]

Question of the week. What does success mean? But before we dive into that, do share with us. Anush, what's your favorite retrospective format and why?

[Anuj Ozha]

Oh, Vasco, this question needs to have so many layers, you know, because every time, in every situation you feel that this is the retrospective. Let's take out from the Pandora box and let's do it. I'll tell you about the one which has been my favorite. Let me talk tell you the plot first. Our situation happened in such a way that when I joined a team I figured I did a one on one with all of them and you know, let's say that the team has A, B, C, D, E, five members. And when I talked to A, it told me that A has problem with D, E and F. When I talked to D, D told me that D has problem with A, B, C and F. Again. So let then I figured out that hey, what's happening? Everybody's talking about the problem with each other. What's going on? What should we do? So what we did, we did. There's a discussion first that first of all, are they comfortable to talk about each other? And by giving the negative feedback on their face, almost everyone were like yes, we can try. And then fair enough. It was time for us to do the retrospective meeting we have in this use the Google form in which each person was supposed to talk about two frames of thought. This is about everybody else. Suppose I'm Anuj and there are five members in my team and now as Anuj for each member I have to answer two frames of thought. The first frame of thought is what is that thing which I like about this person? That is somewhere you need to talk about things that you may not have usually mentioned that person before. You need to empathize. You need to say that this person has two kids. This person has of course challenges with the health as well. And this person has been helpful to us even though with all the constraints, anything. And then there is a second frame of thought which is about what is that one thing? If this person change can be the most awesome person you ever met in your life. Okay. And then you have to write few points about that too. At the offset of this event, we ended up collecting the data. So of course for retrospective it's a four step journey. First is collect the data, then discuss the data, then voting. And then of course we have how to improve. So we collected the data from everyone and then there was a time for curtain razor. When we did the curtain raiser, the expectation was, let's say Vasco got five inputs from the teammates. Vasco has to read all inputs, what has been received and then do a commentary. Vasco can choose to be defensive, Vasco can end up being angry. And it's a safe space. Share what you feel. Okay, we are not going to put it into a box that you cannot feel angry and you just have to do the eco massaging of each other. No, that's not going to work. Just be yourself. Okay? And if you found out that people have a right observation for you, okay, then mention that as well. Okay. Lastly, when you are reading everybody's viewpoint, you also may need to say that what you are going to work upon or what is that point on which you're going to work upon. You may not be able to talk about actions that you will take to improve, but what are the points in which you feel you need to improve? Okay? And once that happened for all of us, it was time for people to vote. But we replaced the vote with people giving feedback on to each other when they read about the inputs given from the team. So then they talked about like Vasco, you have been too honest or Vasco, you know you are hiding something or Vasco, I think you felt offended or whatever. Just open up, just talk about commentary. And many of times it happens so that people appreciate. Okay? And lastly it's about oath ceremony. You may say it that way where everybody now need to say that when we meet again for such activity, what change should they expect in each Other. So instead of people talking about this is what you need to improve. It's important that you should accept first if there is a problem with you. If you do not feel there's a problem with you, you are still not there in a journey. So it's important for you to first acknowledge that. Again, yes, I. I have a problem and I accept it from my teammates and this is the change that I want to bring in. Of course I need your help to improve. If any time I do the same, I do not like to talk, then stop me and tell me that, hey, you are still not listening to others. You are just talking yourself. And that's where that's one of the retro which I love. But Vasu, you haven't asked a question. I want to also answer one more question which retro I do not like at all. I don't like sandwich approach in which it's like people start by giving good things about others and then they talk about the actual feedback they want to give the other person or actual thing they want to talk about about the process. And then the ending again, the retrospective with something good to say. So I believe that they are two different statements, what are we good at? And what are we not good at? But when we put it in a sandwich approach, we are actually making the other person confused. It's like you have a flower in your hand and you're doing like, she loves me, she loves me not. Oh, she loves me. No, she loves me not. And that way the confusion begins.

[Fran]

So yeah, that's a good point. Now this is a very interesting story, the whole retrospective format and the story around it, because it links very much with the second question of today, which is what does success mean for you as a Scrum Master? I mean, we've touched on some topics already in this first part of your answer, but let's dive into that now.

[Vasco]

Anush, what does success mean for you.

[Fran]

As a Scrum Master?

[Anuj Ozha]

I would like to answer this question in two ways. First is a very straight success answer. The second is anti patterns. Okay, my first answer to success is as the creeds come mastered after some time, you should not be needed anymore. If you are the one who should not be needed anymore because your team is self organizing, because the team is high performing, because your team is understanding onboarded with a shared goal which they need to achieve. It means you are the hot property in the market. Send your resume to me. I would like to hire you. Okay, that's what I see at one frame of thought. Another frame of thought is about working on the anti patterns that I would like to explore on that. Pasco, one of the anti pattern is thinking that you are the master of Scrum. Getting this feeling that I know the ultimate truth. I don't know what the problem is but the answer is crumb. And you know what? I'm certified. And you know what? I speak good English. Okay. You know I have that suave in me. So respectful second one which I mentioned before in the earlier podcast is it's about behaving like a clerk master when you are not questioning the status quo. And every time when the important discussions are happening, you're saying time's up everyone. 15 minutes are over. It's time for us to conclude the daily Scrum. No, no, no no no. Don't. Don't just be that. Be in the moment, be fluid and make a sense out of it. The next one I will talk about feeling that you know what? I'm the Scrum master. I'm the power and you should make a temple for me. Look, come on. Don't feel yourself superior than others. You should not manipulate the conversation to win the conversation and you should not fakely acknowledge that every answer that you give is in sense of agile. You can be wrong. You might have doubts, you might need to get back to people as well. And then I have also seen that many times to build a case. People talk about their powerful friends to try to coach somebody that you know what according to that person also this is the problem and instead of actually knowing or helping the people they just start quoting that according to Scrum bag or according to this person, this is the way how it is. And that's where I feel that they talk about the powerful strengths instead of really solving the problem. Next anti waterfall is my next NT pattern. I'm going to talk about. Don't just badmouth waterfall. It's not bad. Every process in the world is PDCA plan, do check, act in waterfall. It was about planning everything up front and doing the checking then acting on the feedback. For me, Agile or Scrum in this case is continuous pdca. Okay? We are continuously planning, continuously doing, continuously acting on the feedback. Okay? So we need to not backmount other things. You have to solve the problem. That should be your focus. Don't try to join any lobby where you feel that you're getting sadist and you're enjoying that as well. I have many more points actually Vasco. I don't know how much time we have.

[Vasco]

Yeah, but this is already quite good.

[Fran]

And a lot of I think food for thought reflection points for us to evaluate our own behavior as Scrum masters. So I think we are running out of time for this one.

[Vasco]

But one thing that I really want.

[Fran]

To emphasize that is very important for all of us, you mentioned, it already is like, of course the goal is to help teams to be self sufficient so that we don't need to do things for them. They have the authority and they have the courage to act on that authority. But the other thing is that you mentioned, which is related to that, which is that very often we tend to go into whatever the problem is, the answer is Scrum mindset. And actually this week we've already discussed different stories where the answer wasn't Scrum. And that's okay because the problem wasn't with Scrum, it was with other things, other aspects of the development effort, the work that the team was doing. And I think that it's very important for us to realize that at the end of the day it is people working together. And sometimes the solution isn't process, the solution is addressing what the people need or what they are lacking or what they are searching for. And, and I think that's a very powerful reflection for us when we think about success for ourselves as SCRUM Master in first place, we are there to help people.

[Vasco]

So thank you for sharing that, Anush.

[Anuj Ozha]

That's true. Thank you so much, Vasco.

[Vasco]

Hey Fran, thank you for staying here. Is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit. If you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from Agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged. Especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzwords and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day. Then 19th and 20th, the conference day. And Tallinn, Estonia is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leaders in Software and Agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Adsic, who's taking an unconventional look at the product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, e.g. sig Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with a contract negotiation? How Agile is that? But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our development developer track with talks on, for example AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll, we'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile business track where we will talk about, for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract. Literally. I mean, I already told you about Svendit's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now, whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations. Agile Product for product managers, product product owners and innovators. An Agile developer for the builders making agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the Scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who just like you, want to grow, want to share and want to learn by challenging the ideas that don't work anymore. At the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the full program and grab your ticket [e-mail] I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May.

[Fran]

I'll see you there.