BONUS: Beyond Frameworks, A Provocative Guide to Real Agility | Erwin Verweij

May 5, 202500:47:13

BONUS: Beyond Frameworks, A Provocative Guide to Real Agility With Erwin Verweij In this BONUS episode, we dive into the provocative world of ' Erwin shares his journey from frustration to clarity as he witnesses organizations adopting Agile...

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[00:07]
Vasco
Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon. Hello everybody. Welcome to this very special bonus episode about how to be agile. We have with us Erwin Fervaille. Hey Erwin, welcome to the show.
[01:14]
Erwin Fervaille
Hello Vasco. Happy to be here.
[01:18]
Vasco
Erwin is a seasoned agile coach. He calls himself the an Agile Viking.
[01:27]
Erwin Fervaille
A lot of people call me Agile Viking.
[01:29]
Vasco
There you go.
[01:30]
Erwin Fervaille
I took on the name.
[01:31]
Vasco
So yeah, and he wrote the book that goes with that brand. The book is called how to be Agile. Actually there's an F word in the middle. How the F to be agile. He's got 15 plus years of experience driving changes in many organizations and he helps organizations embrace real agile through coaching, transformation workshops and cutting through complexity to spark courage, clarity and action. Now already from the title, Erwin, we see that your book has a very strong message. And as we were talking in prep, you say you want to get people to wake up. Right? So what made you realize that people need to wake up when it comes to agile adoption?
[02:21]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, like I said, I have experience of working for a lot of companies as an HR coach or Scrum master or in different roles. But and every time, and every time somewhere people say, yeah, we're going to do agile working or we're going to do we have an Agile environment or I'm an agile grandmaster, whatever. And then when I ask, okay, so what's agile to you? Or what is it they don't know? And it's not only about Agile, it's basically about, well, almost all the stuff that people do in companies. Like if they do a Scrum, they do it by the book and they don't actually know why they do it. And when I challenge them to that, they don't know the real answer. And that Made me well realized people need to wake up a little bit, so they need a little bit more information to actually know why you're doing stuff.
[03:12]
Vasco
So when it comes to not knowing, I mean, okay, so as you say that I'm a project manager by trade and I would. My own experience is that the organizations I've worked at didn't really know what project management was either. And I don't think they know it now in any case. But when you mentioned that frustration, talking to people and figuring out that actually they are doing things that they don't really understand, or they don't even understand why they're doing them. What are the biggest misconceptions you've seen in companies that are trying to adopt Agile ways of working?
[03:51]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, I think the biggest misconception is basically that companies or organizations, they think they need a new way of working and they think, okay, maybe Scrum works or Safe or Less or Kanban or any of the frameworks doesn't matter, and they think it will bring them the solution, it's the golden ticket to success and which is okay. But then they adopt it and maybe they don't know why they adopt it. Why do you use Scrum? Scrum, like I said, for example, Scrum is for really complex problems. If you really don't know how to start. I always say start with Scrum because you start with small iterations and slowly you work towards something that makes it more clear for you. But most organizations, they don't know why they adapt Scrum. They think it's agile, it's new, it's not what we used to do, like Waterfall. It also doesn't exist, by the way, but. And they think they come with some new magical thing and it will bring solutions and everything to them, but you don't know what it is.
[04:57]
Vasco
So you're saying that basically people are adopting, well, companies are trying to adopt Agile and people are trying to use Agile because they think it's magic.
[05:08]
Erwin Fervaille
Yeah, magic. It's a buzzword. It's now we're going to be agile, we will have success. Well, it's going to be harder because you have to basically change your entire company culture, mindsets where you're thinking all the things that you have to change. It's not something you just plug in on a USB stick and you have success. So it's a completely different way of working sometimes. And most people don't realize that. They think, oh, it's a framework. We started. We have Scrum master product owner. If you do Scrum in this example and it's going to work. And then all the challenges start because it's a complete new way of working. They are challenged in a new way of thinking. We have to work together. We have work as a team now. Oh, then we have as a team. We also need stuff like self regulation or self organization and stuff like that. How is that going to work? And then the old world and the new world are going to clash in a company. The old way of work, the new way of working and there you get all the friction and stuff that doesn't work and so on and so on and then people get lost.
[06:15]
Vasco
And of course we eventually need to realize we're lost and then start taking I guess steps. And one way in which we realize that we're lost is we might say things like Scrum doesn't work here. Agile is not what we need. So once a team realizes that their Agile adoption, or an organization for that matter, realize that their Agile adoption isn't working, what do they typically do next in your experience?
[06:48]
Erwin Fervaille
Differs. Either they keep on going, hopefully that at somewhere along the line it will become a success, or they hire expensive consultants, coaches, I'm a coach myself, so. But they hire those in the hope that they will help them or they go back to the old way of working. Luckily the last one I haven't seen so many times that they actually go back into the old way of plan based working, waterfall, whatever. But usually they just keep on going. I always sometimes call this an incremental death march. Just keep on going in the hope that it will somewhere along the line become a success. And well, usually it doesn't or it takes a long time. That's also something.
[07:31]
Vasco
So what helps companies that succeed through that hump, right like this moment where they realize, okay, agile isn't working, maybe they want to continue and they either hire someone or try something different, whatever. But what helps them to get over that hump and to then really start working on helping themselves in this case to benefit from the Agile ideas?
[07:58]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, if you look close to all the frameworks, and I mean all the frameworks like I'm talking about Scrum now because it's the most, I think clear one. But in all the older frameworks, all the new ways of working, you could say there is one base thing that's in there, that's knowledge. Learning from each other, gaining knowledge, getting insights. I think knowledge is also a really important value that you have to go for. We always talk about minimal valuable products and stuff. But also one of the Values is knowledge. And once companies are going to see that, hey, we first have to learn about this. We first have to teach our people, we have to educate them, we have to send them to training or whatever in order to get to know what we're doing, but also how we're doing it. And that's where it starts. But a lot of organizations think, okay, we just take this framework, this way working, we introduce it, go we as the upper management or whatever, we will keep doing our own thing and we'll have success. Well, it doesn't. And the first thing you need is basically knowledge. Learn about the stuff that you're doing. And it's always something that has. I said I was always wondering about is people do stuff, but sometimes they don't really know why am I doing this? And this is where it all goes wrong, I think. Yes.
[09:23]
Vasco
And one of the things that you said there is we often see that upper management says, hey, you go agile, we'll just keep doing whatever we were doing before. And of course that's not going to work very well. You point to the fact that one of the steps that we need to go through is to really understand what we are adopting as an organization. So not just the teams, but as an organization. So how do we help organizations to actually get through that? I mean, of course you said we should train everybody. Okay, that's cool, right? Like, if we can do that right now, let's do it. But like, how do we, how do we build up to that? Right, because there's a lot of organizations right now, teams and organizations adopting Agile. Of course, there's maybe the laggards that are now adopting agile, given that the whole process started in 2001, picked up steam in the late 2010s. But how do we get that? I think thirst for understanding and ability to understand, to get that knowledge you were talking about into the organizations we support.
[10:39]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, I think it starts with awareness. And maybe I can have a little thought about this. I think people are really capable of doing really nice, amazing, complex stuff. We're capable of doing that. And I thought also in the talks we had before this, I gave this example that, well, as people, we are able to, well, we live in a house, either rent it or buy it. We live with our spouses, our partners, whatever. We raise children. Every morning we go into the traffic, which is a really complex system if you look at it. And through that complex system of traffic and hopefully not getting hit by cars, we finally arrive at the workspace and then we swipe Our little cars or whatever we use to get in at the door. And from that moment we are like, I don't know anymore. And this confuses me. I was always like, we are so capable as human beings to do complex things. We raise children, which is basically programming a human that can be really complex. And then when at the workspace you're like, I don't know anymore, please tell me what to do. And basically this is the essence of everything the organization says. We're going to do this, we're going to do Scrum framework this framework that, we're going to do Agile. And people are like, okay. And I'm like, no, start reading for yourself. What does it mean? And go and challenge this. And in most companies, in most organizations, people don't do that. They just like, okay, it's a new way of working. Yeah, we start doing it. We do kanban and sort of. And it starts all with this awareness, okay, hey, I'm a self sentient being. I can basically fill my entire day. I know how to plan stuff and all the things I don't, I know how to do my work. But also the wave working, does it fit with me? Does it work for me? Does it work with my team? Does it work for if it doesn't work, challenge it, go against it. But we don't really do that. We just go like, okay, I will do it.
[12:41]
Vasco
So what you're saying is that as soon as we enter our workplaces, we become people who just follow orders. And because of that, it is necessarily hard to adopt Agile because Agile asks us to not just follow orders, but to actually have an active participation in what work gets done and how it gets done, Is that what you're saying?
[13:05]
Erwin Fervaille
That's what I'm saying, yeah.
[13:07]
Vasco
So how do we amplify this in our teams? Right, like we're listening to this podcast, we have coaches, product people, team members. How do we bring that to our teams? How do we amplify this ability to work together, to take responsibility, to make decisions, to work through complex problems that goes beyond just following orders.
[13:32]
Erwin Fervaille
I think a few things. One of them is basically giving people the information that they need. So you can do training workshops, stuff like that. But I also think it's really important to take out fear. And I can give you an example for this. I used to work for, as I was coaching at a really big company and something in telecom and the people were working all in Scrum teams a little bit kanban here and there, but basically they were all scrum teams. Scrum teams. And they were so focused on the process that they were like, oh, we have to do this. We have a stand up for 15 minutes. I was like, why 15 minutes? If you need 30 minutes, perfect, do that. But no, no, 50 minutes. And we have to do scrum and we have to do this and this and this because management said this. And we had also another company in here who trained us and coached us and stuff like that and Scrum by the book and blah, blah, blah. And it was like, okay. And there was actually a poster in the hall somewhere that with all the framework on it and some buzzwords and stuff like that. And I told him, okay, we're not going to do this, we're not going to do scrum, forget it. I tore it off the wall and I make a. I threw it away. And people were like, oh, you cannot do that because management said that. I said, I don't care what management said. What is that you guys need? What is actually that you need? Well, we need a longer planning. We need this, we need this and I do it. What is your goal? What is your goal? Basically your goal is to deliver something that has value. Software, product, whatever it is. And in order to do so, you have to also devise your own way of working. And you can use some Scrum stuff, but if it doesn't work, throw it out. Don't care what management says. Well, and they were like, oh, no, you're not. Oh, oh, we're gonna probably gonna get punished. I don't know, where does that come from? And it's basically, I think taking away that fear showing being an example, like nothing's gonna happen if you change your way of working. Things will happen if you basically don't deliver when you really make mistakes and stuff like that. But if you deliver stuff and you do it in your own way and it works perfect. So I think taking away that fear and giving people a little bit that idea back that they are in control, okay?
[15:42]
Vasco
So taking away fear and giving people the idea that they are in control, okay, the way I hear you, how I translate it in the way I translate it in my mind is okay. Fear is an obstacle to taking initiative. So we need to figure out maybe there are other obstacles, but fear is one. So we need to remove that before people can take initiative. And then the other aspect is that people already have some idea of what could work for them. And you talked about that, right? Like I asked, you know, what do you need? And people have some idea of what would work for them. And if we enable them to try that out, they are more likely to learn because they are taking responsibility over how they work instead of being told how they must work. Is that what you mean?
[16:36]
Erwin Fervaille
That's what I mean, yeah. Because people know how to do their work. They know how to communicate with each other. Sometimes you have to just push them a little bit to go beyond boundaries, to go on a zoom call, whatever put on your camera. So it's much easier to talk with each other. But most, in most cases, people know how to do their work and they get imprisoned in these frameworks and ways working and everything. By the book, we have to do it like this. I'm like, no, let go. That's okay.
[17:06]
Vasco
But I would take a little bit the devil advocates position here and say, okay, but we can't just go to a team or a large organization and just say the words do agile or be agile and then everything will happen. Right? There are certain things that need to be in place. Now, I would be the first one to say, and I didn't say it myself, I copied that from Deming. The way the system works, meaning the whole organization, the group of teams, the delivery, whatever, the way the system works is the responsibility of management. Right? And of course, one way to understand that is that management needs to bring the process. Another way to understand that, which is what I think Deming was saying, is that management must tend to the system, but as a coach, not as a judge or an enforcer. That's at least my perspective. My background comes from what I learned and read from Deming and Lean when I started. But how would you phrase it? Like, how do you phrase it in your book, how the F to be Agile? How do you phrase that distinction? And perhaps the balancing act between just giving enough rules to help the teams move forward, but not too many so that they get disempowered and just stand back and follow whatever they're told.
[18:29]
Erwin Fervaille
That's a good question. I think people need, they need to learn that if they do something, the consequences are not so terrible as they think. Again, that's that fear thing. I think you cannot tell people, okay, be agile or, you know, wake up one morning and bomb, you're dead. It's a process. And you can do that by letting people try and fail and learn from their mistakes and things like that. And I think as management or as management, the only thing you have to do is, okay, support her people, let them do their things, trust them. See what happens if something goes wrong. Hey, it happened. Okay, what did we learn from this. I'm currently in an environment of a company where actually this takes place. People are trying stuff, they make mistakes and things like that, and they learn from it and they don't judge. And I think it starts there. Don't judge. Let people try it out. To my opinion experts, doing their work, either they're programmers or whatever, even management people, whatever they do in the company, they like to do that work, at least I hope so. And they also know how to do it, all the techniques, all the stuff, they know how to do their work. So let them. It's a little bit. I'm not sure if Steve Jobs actually said this, but there's his phrase. He said the most stupid thing you can do is hire people and then tell them exactly how to do their work.
[20:09]
Vasco
Hire intelligent people and then tell them exactly how to do their work.
[20:13]
Erwin Fervaille
Basically, that's it. You hire people who want to be at your company, they like your products or whatever you're doing, and they're willing to put their effort, energy, knowledge and everything in there.
[20:25]
Vasco
That changes our work as coaches and scrum masters and leaders as well. Right. Because then if what you're saying is true, then our perspective needs to be that we are there to help people start to take ownership, start to make decisions on their own, and of course, being accountable for them. And you said that people need to be able to fail without the fear of punishment. I totally agree with that. But not by avoiding reflection. Right. Because very often the punishment comes from the inside. Right. Like we punish ourselves for having failed. And that may lead to avoiding reflecting on what just happened. What can we learn? How do we move forward? Right. So I guess that one of the consequences from what you're saying and what you write in the book is that we as leaders in organizations, whether we are coaches or hierarchical leaders, we need to take the stand that we are there to help people take ownership of their work, not to tell them exactly what to do and when to do it.
[21:31]
Erwin Fervaille
Exactly. And that's why I wrote a book, not to actually give answers like, you have to do this, you have to do this. You have to this. Because then I'm the same as everybody else, sort of, but I just give people the opportunity to think about stuff. Okay, you're doing agile. What is agile? You're working according to the Spotify framework. Even Spotify didn't really do it. So you're doing waterfall. What is actually waterfall doesn't even exist. There is no waterfall method. There's just a metaphor that describes a way of plan based working, which is really expensive. If you want to do it, do it. Nothing wrong with it. But in companies I also found that people are. We're not allowed to do waterfall anymore. It's the taboo. Worth is the bad thing. So we do what else is there? Okay, we do Scrum. And I'm like, there's nothing wrong with doing a plan based way of working. If it's simple enough and transparent enough, do it. And if you need something to help you to dig through really complex material, probably the Scrum framework might work. If you have a continuous flow that keeps on going, like support department, use Kanban. If you need to combine them, do it. I mean they're all just tools. And this is what I try to tell people, they're just tools. And the way you use them, that's up to you.
[23:04]
Vasco
Yeah. So of course I don't actually agree with what you said. Of course you're free to say it. Obviously I don't think that we can say there's nothing wrong with doing waterfall. In fact, we have a lot of history that shows what's wrong with doing waterfall, including why it doesn't work, its origins and so on. But I guess if I get the essence of what you're saying is that if we are going to empower people to take responsibility over how they work, we need to start by accepting that they will make the wrong decision sometimes. And as management or coaches or leaders within an organization, our job is not to say, hey, you're doing it wrong, but it's rather to say, have you considered this? Have you thought about that? And to help them reflect on what decisions they are making so that they are not just following the book.
[23:56]
Erwin Fervaille
Exactly. And to get back on the waterfall thing. The waterfall thing? Yeah, that sounds really strange. No, basically it's plan based, but it doesn't work when stuff becomes really, really, really complex. And that's where waterfall doesn't work for simple things. Perfect usage, it's plan based, plan it, calculate it, set your deadline, all the things, nothing wrong with it. But as soon as it becomes really, really complex at the beginning, you don't know how it will end and where it will go. And you need something more flexible, agile. Okay, then you use a different framework. This is what I mean. There's nothing wrong with waterfall plan based working, but use it like any tool in the right for the right occasion. So if you need to drill, that.
[24:45]
Vasco
Would be a whole other episode, but.
[24:47]
Erwin Fervaille
Exactly it would be completely.
[24:49]
Vasco
I'll let that slide for now, but maybe I'll need to get you back and have a conversation on, on that topic. Now, one of the things you talk about in the book is that Agile adoption never ends. First I want you to explain that and then we need to talk about, okay, but then how do we help teams realize that it's a process, that it's always going to be there, that it's not just, oh, now you're doing scrum, so now you can rest and never think about how you're working anymore. So first tell us, what do you mean by this Agile adoption never ends?
[25:22]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, the world change, the world keeps changing as we speak. So every time new challenges come by, new ways of thinking, working, things change. So you need to keep on adapting, you need to keep on moving with it and change the way of working, communication, all those things. I always compare it a little bit. Like I'm not sure if you have seen the movie Poltergeist a long time ago, Steven Spielberg movie. And I always use this metaphor. And in the movie, if you have seen it, there's a house full of ghosts and stuff like that, and then they hire a medium little lady who comes in with her team and, and they kind of do all sorts of stuff. And I'm not going into details here, but somewhere at the end of all that she done, she says, she comes out and says, this house is now clean and now safe. And then you look, you're sitting in the cinema, you look at your watch like, yeah, it's really nice. But the movie's just in for about 30 minutes. I still have an hour to go. So the shit is actually going to hit the fan right now.
[26:26]
Vasco
Right now. This is when the real movie starts.
[26:30]
Erwin Fervaille
Exactly. And that's the same with agile ways of working frameworks. Anything you come in, you do, you do your trick. You. So you teach people, you say, this is how it works. And then you cannot say like, okay, now you're agile. Now you are perfectly in scrum because then the shit starts. Then you have to deal with it. All the problems that you have, all the things learning and it's a continuous process, it never ends. You cannot say, now you're agile. It. It's an ongoing thing. And like I said, the world keeps changing. Now we are. Countries are at war with each other, politics is a mess. Things are. It keeps on going. And I think a couple of years ago we thought, okay, we had Covid. Finally it's gone. Now we can go back to normal life. Yeah, well, no, something else pops by. So that keeps on going and when I. Hopefully all this stuff with Russia and all the things will be over hopefully soon. But I can guarantee you after that something new comes, a new virus, a new, I don't know, alien invasion, anything. So we have to keep on adapting to those changes. And that's an ongoing, continuous process.
[27:42]
Vasco
Absolutely. And then of course, the second part of the question is right now that we understand and maybe even some of us accept that the world keeps on changing. And agile adoption is not a, how do you call it, a process installation, as some people might have called it at some point. So how do we help teams to keep on evolving instead of just falling into complacency or even worse, falling back into old habits?
[28:14]
Erwin Fervaille
I think it's really simple to stay open and be open for that change. If a team decides to, hey, we're now doing this for a while, but okay, we do it by the book. It's sort of zombie scrum or zombie combat or whatever. Maybe you should change some stuff and let's try this, like experiment with that and things like that. I had a manager of company who was really like stuck in like, no, this is what I need. I said, okay, what, what would happen if you drop it? There was a sort of way of reporting. The teams had to report something, drop it and try something else. And okay, reluctantly he did and he changed his change the way of reporting. And immediately you sensed a new vibe. The teams were like, oh, hey, now we're differently in this. This is fun. We now can talk about our goals instead of our points in estimation and stuff like that. And immediately you got to change. And that's the thing you have to do. As soon as you feel like it doesn't work, we do it by the book, but throw it out. It's just a book, it's just a manual. Doesn't mean you have to stick by it by every point and every detail. And that's also, I think, agile. Just go with the flow, see what works, throw out what doesn't work and be brave enough to embrace new ways of thinking and experiment with it.
[29:36]
Vasco
Yeah, absolutely. Being brave enough, of course, requires us to set the stage right. Like, it's not enough for the coach to be brave enough. The team and the manager need to be brave enough, just like in the story that you shared. So what are some tips and experiences you could share with us to help people really feel that they can themselves be brave enough?
[30:02]
Erwin Fervaille
One of the biggest thing is that basically me as a coach, I always try to be an example, but this I Mean you cannot teach people or coach people and saying you have to do this and not do it doing it yourself. So for example, I had a team and the company and they one day they decided to get rid of all management, one time management layer. They, they, they stopped using it. So all the managers were let off in a nice way by the way. And then one morning there was this stand up with the team and the team was like, okay, we do this, this, this. And one team member said, yeah, I need to take a day off. And I was like, yeah, okay, go take a day off. Yeah, but I have to ask my manager for that to permission. This is a grown up person my age. It was like, I have to ask my manager for permission. And I was like, what the f. No, you're, you're, you can decide by yourself. Talk with your team members. If they say, hey, go then go. And if you have enough spare days, three days, there's nothing holding your back in doing so. And, and this is something that you constantly have to show people like, don't be afraid of that. And I think we also have to change within companies. You have to change a little bit. This, this way of thinking that everything is by rules and guidelines and you only have 23 days to. I'm not sure how it's in your country, but here we have like 21, 22 free days per year difference limit per company change. Also those systems let people take off when they need it and make the work interesting and then you don't need those spare days anymore. I know there are companies in the world who actually do this. They say, hey, if you need a day off, take a day off. But be back. Because we have really cool stuff we're working on and people actually, they shorten their holidays and come back to actually work on really cool products. And so they don't need all those little guideline rules. They were made up almost 100 years ago in the industrial age. We had all those rules. We needed to give people exactly the days they can take a day off to the spare days. We actually had to tell people you have to come in at 9 and leave at 5 or whatever it is, or all those rules. And we slowly have to get rid of those things. Hybrid work is now the thing.
[32:30]
Vasco
Yeah, wherever possible. So be careful. Everybody out there, remember you still need to follow the law. But I do agree with you in the sense that we need to be the example. Right? Like if the example that we project as leaders is that we must follow rules, then of course we need to expect that teams will behave that way as well. If the example we project is that we need to adhere to the rules, but when we need to get out of go beyond the rules, we need to get agreement and then we can do it, then that's also an example for the teams. Another example that comes to mind is as agile coaches, Scrum masters, if we are always the ones having the answer right, like whenever people ask us something, we come up with the answer and always have an answer, then we're not encouraging people to think for themselves. And I think these are just a few examples of those behaviors that we need to bring to the teams that we support. Now, there's one topic we haven't touched yet, Erwin, and I know this is a topic that is of very much interest to our audience, which is, all right, so let's say that we do have the teams doing their Scrum or Kanban or Less or whatever they're doing, but they're doing it well. They're not necessarily perfect, but they're doing it well. Now we have the problem of an organization. There are many of these teams. So I guess one of the questions that I'm curious, does your book address this actually, is it possible to create a simple, adaptable way for teams to scale agile without falling into a bureaucracy nightmare?
[34:15]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, I'm going to ask a different question in return, if I may. Why do companies need to scale? Sometimes it feels to me like it's a sort of. It's the goal in itself. We need to scale. We need to. Everything needs to be connected. We have to be bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. And my first question at companies is, why are you going to scale? I'm not talking about adopting Safe or the ideas of less or any other framework. It's not about that. But why do you want to scale? And sometimes people think, well, we have to do it because it's agile and we need to be agile. And I'm like, no, no, that's not the thing you scale because you have maybe have a few teams that work on one product and you need to work together. Then is that scaling? I don't know. It's just working together in a more efficient way. So my question is, basically, what is actually scaling for a company? Is that everybody needs to do Scrum. No, I can give you a nice metaphor, a really nice idea. This is from something called Management 3.0. I'm not sure if you're aware of that thinking, but there's a really nice metaphor thinking in it that I really like see an organization as a city. And you know, every city is a little different if you can look at worldwide, well, even more differences. But if you look in one country, every city has its own sort of unique character and there are no. Their own unique culture. You could say, and if you start living in a city, then you have to abide by that culture. Basically you can say, the mayor will say, hey, welcome in our city. This is our flag, this is our color, this is our football club. And this is how we live together and this is how we talk and do stuff. And then you have the rules basically enforced, simply said by the police, to say, hey, if you put your garbage out on Tuesday, that's not allowed, it's on Monday. If you drive with your car, this is the maximum speed limit. And all those things, those are the rules, but that's it. And then you start living in that city. And it's not so that the mayor will call you every morning and ask you, okay, hey, nice. Good morning. What are you going to wear today? How you're going to go to work? What are you going to do today? How are you going to do that? And no, that's up to you. And as long as you stay within the culture of the city, the company, and if you stay within the rules, the boundaries, the guidelines of the city or company, then you can do your things. And you know, in every city has different sort of industry. You have people who actually like to work in a sort of, well, maybe scrum, agile, iterative way. You have parts that maybe are financial that need a more. So glue by the book, all the rules. You have the creative part that actually does. We don't care, we just make art. And all this together is how a city works. This is the dynamics of a city. Same goes for a company. So you cannot use one way of working for an entire company. It doesn't work. You need different kinds of working, different kinds of mindsets in different kinds of areas.
[37:24]
Vasco
And then you need to glue it all together, of course. And that brings the question, okay, but can we do it without bureaucracy?
[37:31]
Erwin Fervaille
Yeah, and that's the biggest question. Can we do without bureaucracy? Again, see what is needed. If the cultural district needs to talk with the financial district, they will find a way to communicate to each other. And maybe you have to help it a little bit, but you don't need a new way of working for that. You don't need a new model to actually have those two ways of working to be able to work together. You just have to find a way.
[37:56]
Vasco
I guess one of the things we could say is that we need to be agile about adopting Agile. Right. It might be that certain things need to change over time and that's okay. We need to work with the system. It might be a change in one team or it might be a change in the coordination mechanisms with multiple teams. It might be a change in rules because of some financial or otherwise stated outside in type of regulation. And I guess what you're saying is we need to constantly be understanding what's working, what's not working, and then being ready to adapt, of course, together with the teams. Right? Not for the teams, but together with the teams, but being ready to adapt. Just like in cities, we are constantly adapting to changes in construction or streets change or whatever.
[38:48]
Erwin Fervaille
Exactly. I think basically it's the essence of being agile is to deal with it. You could say we don't do Agile. We do something that's known as we have to deal with it.
[39:03]
Vasco
It's just not a sexy name though, Erwin, we have to deal with it might not be a good, good product name for a process.
[39:11]
Erwin Fervaille
Yeah, no, but basically if you think about it, if you say to people, you have to be agile, you have to go to be agile. Basically what you tell people is like, hey, deal with it.
[39:22]
Vasco
Yes, learn and change.
[39:25]
Erwin Fervaille
See what happens if you don't know, try something. If it fails, well, learn from it and move along the way. And this is basically dealing with it. The basic idea of the Agile manifesto, for instance, basically there is no Agile manifesto. There is the manifesto for Agile software development. People always seem to forget that. It also said that we make software, we find ways in doing so. And basically that's it. We find ways in doing so.
[39:54]
Vasco
We're constantly learning. Exactly.
[39:56]
Erwin Fervaille
Learning. And we test. No, it doesn't work, it tests differently. We program this language, doesn't work, we to add something else. And this is essence of Agile software development. This is where the idea, the entire idea for Agile came from. And we turned it, and that's also in my book, we turned it into a sort of commercial framework selling consultancy thing. I don't know how you want to call it.
[40:21]
Vasco
Well, okay, so that, that would be a whole nother episode because of course, let's not forget that Agile was not the, the first industrial trend to start a consulting trend. We're not going to be the last. We were not the first starting a certification system. In fact, project management started that much earlier and others started before project management. So that would be a whole other discussion of how do we make Agile more adaptive? How do we grow as a community? It's a very important discussion which I hope we will continue in May in the Global Agile Summit. Hope to see you there as well Erwin, as well as our listeners. And before we go though, Erwin, I mean you opened up a lot of questions, ideas, inspiring thoughts that we can all read in Erwin's book. The link is in the show notes. All the have to be agile, so check it out. It's available almost everywhere I guess we could say so that's definitely a book recommended for all of you out there. But if people want to get in touch Erwin, and maybe, you know, have a conversation with you, learn more about the thoughts and ideas you share in the book. Where could they go?
[41:34]
Erwin Fervaille
Where could they go? I always say I'm really easily googleable, so if you just google my name you will probably combined with something Agile Scrum, say whatever you will find me. Otherwise it'll be a LinkedIn. Yeah, how can they reach Mervey? That's basically my name.
[41:54]
Vasco
And if you google and we'll put the link to LinkedIn page on the show notes. So everybody out there, why not ask follow up questions. Maybe you have a thought that you want to explore further with Erwin, don't hesitate to get in touch and contact him on LinkedIn. Erwin, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.
[42:16]
Erwin Fervaille
You're very much welcome. Thank you that I was able to be here. So thank you very much.
[42:23]
Vasco
Hey friend, thank you for staying here. Is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit. If you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from Agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged, especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzframe words and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day, then 19th and 20th the conference day. And Talinestone is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leaders in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Adsic, who's taking an unconventional look at product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, for example, Sig Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with a contract negotiation? How agile is that? But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on, for example AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms, and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile Business track where we will talk about, for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract. Literally. I mean, I already told you about Svendit's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now, whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators, and Agile Developer for the builders making Agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the Scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who just like you, want to grow, want to share and want to learn by challenging the ideas that don't work anymore. At the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the full program and grab your ticket now@globalagilesummit.com I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May. I'll see you there.

BONUS: Beyond Frameworks, A Provocative Guide to Real Agility | Erwin Verweij

May 5, 202500:47:13

Summary7 min read

Podcast Summary: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode: BONUS: Beyond Frameworks, A Provocative Guide to Real Agility | Erwin Verweij
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Erwin Fervaille (Agile Viking)
Release Date: May 5, 2025

Introduction

In this special bonus episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte engages in a profound conversation with Erwin Fervaille, affectionately known as the Agile Viking. The discussion delves deep into the real-world application of Agile methodologies, challenging conventional frameworks, and exploring the essence of true agility within organizations.

Guest Introduction: Erwin Fervaille – The Agile Viking

Erwin Fervaille is a seasoned Agile Coach with over 15 years of experience facilitating transformative changes in diverse organizations. As the author of "How the F to Be Agile," Erwin emphasizes cutting through complexity to ignite courage, clarity, and actionable results. He is renowned for his hands-on approach in coaching, conducting transformation workshops, and fostering environments where real Agile practices flourish.

Common Misconceptions in Agile Adoption

Misunderstanding Agile as a Magic Framework

One of the primary misconceptions Erwin highlights is the belief that adopting an Agile framework—be it Scrum, SAFe, LeSS, or Kanban—is a silver bullet for organizational success. Many organizations adopt these frameworks superficially, expecting immediate positive outcomes without a foundational understanding of Agile principles.

Erwin Fervaille [04:00]: "They think it's a framework. We started. We have Scrum Master, Product Owner. If you do Scrum in this example and it's going to work. And then all the challenges start because it's a complete new way of working."

Lack of Purpose Behind Framework Adoption

Organizations often implement Agile frameworks without understanding the underlying reasons. This lack of purpose leads to rigidity, where teams follow processes by the book without grasping the "why" behind them.

Erwin Fervaille [02:20]: "They don't know why they adopt it. Why do you use Scrum? Scrum is for really complex problems... they don't know the real answer."

Challenges Organizations Face in Agile Adoption

Clashing Old and New Work Cultures

Introducing Agile into an organization entrenched in traditional methods like Waterfall creates friction. The dichotomy between old and new ways of working can lead to confusion and loss of direction.

Erwin Fervaille [05:07]: "It's not something you just plug in on a USB stick and you have success. So it's a completely different way of working sometime."

Fear of Change and Strict Adherence to Frameworks

A significant barrier is the pervasive fear of deviating from established processes. Teams become overly focused on adhering to frameworks, stifling creativity and autonomy.

Erwin Fervaille [15:42]: "Taking away that fear and giving people the idea back that they are in control."

Overcoming Adoption Challenges: Knowledge and Removing Fear

Emphasizing Continuous Learning and Knowledge Sharing

Erwin advocates for a culture of continuous learning where knowledge is a core value. Training, workshops, and education are pivotal in ensuring that teams understand not just the "how" but also the "why" of Agile practices.

Erwin Fervaille [07:58]: "They have to learn about this. We first have to teach our people, we have to educate them... once companies see that, hey, we first have to learn about this."

Removing Fear to Encourage Autonomy and Experimentation

Fear is a significant impediment to Agile success. Erwin shares anecdotes where removing rigid adherence to frameworks empowered teams to take ownership and tailor their workflows to better suit their needs.

Erwin Fervaille [06:48]: "Don't care what management said. What is that you guys need? What is actually that you need?"

Erwin Fervaille [15:42]: "Taking away that fear showing being an example, like nothing's gonna happen if you change your way of working."

Leadership and Coaching in Agile

Leaders as Facilitators, Not Controllers

Erwin emphasizes that leadership in Agile should revolve around supporting teams rather than enforcing rules. Leaders should foster an environment where teams feel safe to experiment, fail, and learn without fear of punitive consequences.

Erwin Fervaille [18:28]: "The only thing you have to do is support your people, let them do their things, trust them."

Encouraging Ownership and Accountability

Effective Agile leadership involves empowering team members to take responsibility for their work and decisions. This shift from directive leadership to servant leadership is crucial for genuine Agile transformation.

Vasco Duarte [21:31]: "Our job is to not to tell them exactly what to do and when to do it."

Continuous Agile Adoption: Agile is a Never-Ending Journey

Adapting to an Ever-Changing World

Erwin posits that Agile adoption is not a finite project but a continuous journey. As the world evolves with new challenges, Agile practices must adapt accordingly to remain relevant and effective.

Erwin Fervaille [25:21]: "Agile adoption never ends... you need to keep on adapting, you need to keep on moving with it and change the way of working."

Embracing Change and Experimentation

Continuous improvement is at the heart of Agile. Teams must remain open to change, constantly evaluating and refining their processes to better meet emerging challenges.

Erwin Fervaille [28:13]: "Just go with the flow, see what works, throw out what doesn't work and be brave enough to embrace new ways of thinking and experiment with it."

Scaling Agile: Approaches Without Bureaucracy

Questioning the Need to Scale

Erwin challenges the conventional push to scale Agile frameworks, urging organizations to first understand why they need to scale. Often, scaling is pursued as an end in itself rather than a means to achieve specific organizational goals.

Erwin Fervaille [34:15]: "Why do companies need to scale? Sometimes it feels like it's the goal in itself."

A City as a Metaphor for Organizations

Using the analogy of a city, Erwin illustrates that different departments or teams within an organization may require distinct Agile practices tailored to their unique functions, much like different districts in a city operate under a common culture but retain their individuality.

Erwin Fervaille [37:24]: "See an organization as a city. Every city has its own unique character and culture... you need different kinds of working, different kinds of mindsets in different kinds of areas."

Avoiding Bureaucracy Through Flexibility

Erwin advocates for a flexible approach to scaling, where coordination mechanisms evolve naturally without imposing rigid frameworks that can lead to bureaucratic stagnation.

Erwin Fervaille [37:30]: "Can we do without bureaucracy?... Maybe you have to help a little bit, but you don't need a new way of working for that."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The conversation culminates in a mutual understanding that true Agile adoption transcends mere framework implementation. It requires a cultural shift towards continuous learning, autonomy, and adaptability. Leaders and coaches play a pivotal role in fostering environments where teams feel empowered to innovate and self-organize.

Erwin Fervaille [39:56]: "Learning. And we test. No, it doesn't work, we test differently. We program this language, doesn't work, we add something else. This is the essence of Agile software development."

Vasco Duarte [39:56]: "Exactly. Learning and changing."

Erwin's book, "How the F to Be Agile," is recommended for listeners seeking to delve deeper into these transformative ideas. He invites listeners to connect via LinkedIn for further discussions and insights.

Notable Quotes

Erwin Fervaille [04:00]: "They think it's a framework. We started. We have Scrum Master, Product Owner. If you do Scrum in this example and it's going to work. And then all the challenges start because it's a complete new way of working."
Erwin Fervaille [07:58]: "They have to learn about this. We first have to teach our people, we have to educate them... once companies see that, hey, we first have to learn about this."
Erwin Fervaille [15:42]: "Taking away that fear and giving people the idea back that they are in control."
Erwin Fervaille [25:21]: "Agile adoption never ends... you need to keep on adapting, you need to keep on moving with it and change the way of working."
Erwin Fervaille [37:24]: "See an organization as a city. Every city has its own unique character and culture... you need different kinds of working, different kinds of mindsets in different kinds of areas."
Erwin Fervaille [39:56]: "Learning. And we test. No, it doesn't work, we test differently."

Final Thoughts

Erwin Fervaille's insights serve as a compelling reminder that Agile is not a destination but a journey. Organizations must commit to ongoing learning, adaptability, and cultural transformation to harness the true potential of Agile methodologies. By moving beyond rigid frameworks and embracing the essence of agility, teams can navigate complexity with confidence and resilience.

Listeners are encouraged to explore Erwin's book for a more comprehensive understanding and to participate in events like the upcoming Global Agile Summit to further their Agile journeys.

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Transcript59 lines

[00:07]
Vasco
Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon. Hello everybody. Welcome to this very special bonus episode about how to be agile. We have with us Erwin Fervaille. Hey Erwin, welcome to the show.
[01:14]
Erwin Fervaille
Hello Vasco. Happy to be here.
[01:18]
Vasco
Erwin is a seasoned agile coach. He calls himself the an Agile Viking.
[01:27]
Erwin Fervaille
A lot of people call me Agile Viking.
[01:29]
Vasco
There you go.
[01:30]
Erwin Fervaille
I took on the name.
[01:31]
Vasco
So yeah, and he wrote the book that goes with that brand. The book is called how to be Agile. Actually there's an F word in the middle. How the F to be agile. He's got 15 plus years of experience driving changes in many organizations and he helps organizations embrace real agile through coaching, transformation workshops and cutting through complexity to spark courage, clarity and action. Now already from the title, Erwin, we see that your book has a very strong message. And as we were talking in prep, you say you want to get people to wake up. Right? So what made you realize that people need to wake up when it comes to agile adoption?
[02:21]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, like I said, I have experience of working for a lot of companies as an HR coach or Scrum master or in different roles. But and every time, and every time somewhere people say, yeah, we're going to do agile working or we're going to do we have an Agile environment or I'm an agile grandmaster, whatever. And then when I ask, okay, so what's agile to you? Or what is it they don't know? And it's not only about Agile, it's basically about, well, almost all the stuff that people do in companies. Like if they do a Scrum, they do it by the book and they don't actually know why they do it. And when I challenge them to that, they don't know the real answer. And that Made me well realized people need to wake up a little bit, so they need a little bit more information to actually know why you're doing stuff.
[03:12]
Vasco
So when it comes to not knowing, I mean, okay, so as you say that I'm a project manager by trade and I would. My own experience is that the organizations I've worked at didn't really know what project management was either. And I don't think they know it now in any case. But when you mentioned that frustration, talking to people and figuring out that actually they are doing things that they don't really understand, or they don't even understand why they're doing them. What are the biggest misconceptions you've seen in companies that are trying to adopt Agile ways of working?
[03:51]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, I think the biggest misconception is basically that companies or organizations, they think they need a new way of working and they think, okay, maybe Scrum works or Safe or Less or Kanban or any of the frameworks doesn't matter, and they think it will bring them the solution, it's the golden ticket to success and which is okay. But then they adopt it and maybe they don't know why they adopt it. Why do you use Scrum? Scrum, like I said, for example, Scrum is for really complex problems. If you really don't know how to start. I always say start with Scrum because you start with small iterations and slowly you work towards something that makes it more clear for you. But most organizations, they don't know why they adapt Scrum. They think it's agile, it's new, it's not what we used to do, like Waterfall. It also doesn't exist, by the way, but. And they think they come with some new magical thing and it will bring solutions and everything to them, but you don't know what it is.
[04:57]
Vasco
So you're saying that basically people are adopting, well, companies are trying to adopt Agile and people are trying to use Agile because they think it's magic.
[05:08]
Erwin Fervaille
Yeah, magic. It's a buzzword. It's now we're going to be agile, we will have success. Well, it's going to be harder because you have to basically change your entire company culture, mindsets where you're thinking all the things that you have to change. It's not something you just plug in on a USB stick and you have success. So it's a completely different way of working sometimes. And most people don't realize that. They think, oh, it's a framework. We started. We have Scrum master product owner. If you do Scrum in this example and it's going to work. And then all the challenges start because it's a complete new way of working. They are challenged in a new way of thinking. We have to work together. We have work as a team now. Oh, then we have as a team. We also need stuff like self regulation or self organization and stuff like that. How is that going to work? And then the old world and the new world are going to clash in a company. The old way of work, the new way of working and there you get all the friction and stuff that doesn't work and so on and so on and then people get lost.
[06:15]
Vasco
And of course we eventually need to realize we're lost and then start taking I guess steps. And one way in which we realize that we're lost is we might say things like Scrum doesn't work here. Agile is not what we need. So once a team realizes that their Agile adoption, or an organization for that matter, realize that their Agile adoption isn't working, what do they typically do next in your experience?
[06:48]
Erwin Fervaille
Differs. Either they keep on going, hopefully that at somewhere along the line it will become a success, or they hire expensive consultants, coaches, I'm a coach myself, so. But they hire those in the hope that they will help them or they go back to the old way of working. Luckily the last one I haven't seen so many times that they actually go back into the old way of plan based working, waterfall, whatever. But usually they just keep on going. I always sometimes call this an incremental death march. Just keep on going in the hope that it will somewhere along the line become a success. And well, usually it doesn't or it takes a long time. That's also something.
[07:31]
Vasco
So what helps companies that succeed through that hump, right like this moment where they realize, okay, agile isn't working, maybe they want to continue and they either hire someone or try something different, whatever. But what helps them to get over that hump and to then really start working on helping themselves in this case to benefit from the Agile ideas?
[07:58]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, if you look close to all the frameworks, and I mean all the frameworks like I'm talking about Scrum now because it's the most, I think clear one. But in all the older frameworks, all the new ways of working, you could say there is one base thing that's in there, that's knowledge. Learning from each other, gaining knowledge, getting insights. I think knowledge is also a really important value that you have to go for. We always talk about minimal valuable products and stuff. But also one of the Values is knowledge. And once companies are going to see that, hey, we first have to learn about this. We first have to teach our people, we have to educate them, we have to send them to training or whatever in order to get to know what we're doing, but also how we're doing it. And that's where it starts. But a lot of organizations think, okay, we just take this framework, this way working, we introduce it, go we as the upper management or whatever, we will keep doing our own thing and we'll have success. Well, it doesn't. And the first thing you need is basically knowledge. Learn about the stuff that you're doing. And it's always something that has. I said I was always wondering about is people do stuff, but sometimes they don't really know why am I doing this? And this is where it all goes wrong, I think. Yes.
[09:23]
Vasco
And one of the things that you said there is we often see that upper management says, hey, you go agile, we'll just keep doing whatever we were doing before. And of course that's not going to work very well. You point to the fact that one of the steps that we need to go through is to really understand what we are adopting as an organization. So not just the teams, but as an organization. So how do we help organizations to actually get through that? I mean, of course you said we should train everybody. Okay, that's cool, right? Like, if we can do that right now, let's do it. But like, how do we, how do we build up to that? Right, because there's a lot of organizations right now, teams and organizations adopting Agile. Of course, there's maybe the laggards that are now adopting agile, given that the whole process started in 2001, picked up steam in the late 2010s. But how do we get that? I think thirst for understanding and ability to understand, to get that knowledge you were talking about into the organizations we support.
[10:39]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, I think it starts with awareness. And maybe I can have a little thought about this. I think people are really capable of doing really nice, amazing, complex stuff. We're capable of doing that. And I thought also in the talks we had before this, I gave this example that, well, as people, we are able to, well, we live in a house, either rent it or buy it. We live with our spouses, our partners, whatever. We raise children. Every morning we go into the traffic, which is a really complex system if you look at it. And through that complex system of traffic and hopefully not getting hit by cars, we finally arrive at the workspace and then we swipe Our little cars or whatever we use to get in at the door. And from that moment we are like, I don't know anymore. And this confuses me. I was always like, we are so capable as human beings to do complex things. We raise children, which is basically programming a human that can be really complex. And then when at the workspace you're like, I don't know anymore, please tell me what to do. And basically this is the essence of everything the organization says. We're going to do this, we're going to do Scrum framework this framework that, we're going to do Agile. And people are like, okay. And I'm like, no, start reading for yourself. What does it mean? And go and challenge this. And in most companies, in most organizations, people don't do that. They just like, okay, it's a new way of working. Yeah, we start doing it. We do kanban and sort of. And it starts all with this awareness, okay, hey, I'm a self sentient being. I can basically fill my entire day. I know how to plan stuff and all the things I don't, I know how to do my work. But also the wave working, does it fit with me? Does it work for me? Does it work with my team? Does it work for if it doesn't work, challenge it, go against it. But we don't really do that. We just go like, okay, I will do it.
[12:41]
Vasco
So what you're saying is that as soon as we enter our workplaces, we become people who just follow orders. And because of that, it is necessarily hard to adopt Agile because Agile asks us to not just follow orders, but to actually have an active participation in what work gets done and how it gets done, Is that what you're saying?
[13:05]
Erwin Fervaille
That's what I'm saying, yeah.
[13:07]
Vasco
So how do we amplify this in our teams? Right, like we're listening to this podcast, we have coaches, product people, team members. How do we bring that to our teams? How do we amplify this ability to work together, to take responsibility, to make decisions, to work through complex problems that goes beyond just following orders.
[13:32]
Erwin Fervaille
I think a few things. One of them is basically giving people the information that they need. So you can do training workshops, stuff like that. But I also think it's really important to take out fear. And I can give you an example for this. I used to work for, as I was coaching at a really big company and something in telecom and the people were working all in Scrum teams a little bit kanban here and there, but basically they were all scrum teams. Scrum teams. And they were so focused on the process that they were like, oh, we have to do this. We have a stand up for 15 minutes. I was like, why 15 minutes? If you need 30 minutes, perfect, do that. But no, no, 50 minutes. And we have to do scrum and we have to do this and this and this because management said this. And we had also another company in here who trained us and coached us and stuff like that and Scrum by the book and blah, blah, blah. And it was like, okay. And there was actually a poster in the hall somewhere that with all the framework on it and some buzzwords and stuff like that. And I told him, okay, we're not going to do this, we're not going to do scrum, forget it. I tore it off the wall and I make a. I threw it away. And people were like, oh, you cannot do that because management said that. I said, I don't care what management said. What is that you guys need? What is actually that you need? Well, we need a longer planning. We need this, we need this and I do it. What is your goal? What is your goal? Basically your goal is to deliver something that has value. Software, product, whatever it is. And in order to do so, you have to also devise your own way of working. And you can use some Scrum stuff, but if it doesn't work, throw it out. Don't care what management says. Well, and they were like, oh, no, you're not. Oh, oh, we're gonna probably gonna get punished. I don't know, where does that come from? And it's basically, I think taking away that fear showing being an example, like nothing's gonna happen if you change your way of working. Things will happen if you basically don't deliver when you really make mistakes and stuff like that. But if you deliver stuff and you do it in your own way and it works perfect. So I think taking away that fear and giving people a little bit that idea back that they are in control, okay?
[15:42]
Vasco
So taking away fear and giving people the idea that they are in control, okay, the way I hear you, how I translate it in the way I translate it in my mind is okay. Fear is an obstacle to taking initiative. So we need to figure out maybe there are other obstacles, but fear is one. So we need to remove that before people can take initiative. And then the other aspect is that people already have some idea of what could work for them. And you talked about that, right? Like I asked, you know, what do you need? And people have some idea of what would work for them. And if we enable them to try that out, they are more likely to learn because they are taking responsibility over how they work instead of being told how they must work. Is that what you mean?
[16:36]
Erwin Fervaille
That's what I mean, yeah. Because people know how to do their work. They know how to communicate with each other. Sometimes you have to just push them a little bit to go beyond boundaries, to go on a zoom call, whatever put on your camera. So it's much easier to talk with each other. But most, in most cases, people know how to do their work and they get imprisoned in these frameworks and ways working and everything. By the book, we have to do it like this. I'm like, no, let go. That's okay.
[17:06]
Vasco
But I would take a little bit the devil advocates position here and say, okay, but we can't just go to a team or a large organization and just say the words do agile or be agile and then everything will happen. Right? There are certain things that need to be in place. Now, I would be the first one to say, and I didn't say it myself, I copied that from Deming. The way the system works, meaning the whole organization, the group of teams, the delivery, whatever, the way the system works is the responsibility of management. Right? And of course, one way to understand that is that management needs to bring the process. Another way to understand that, which is what I think Deming was saying, is that management must tend to the system, but as a coach, not as a judge or an enforcer. That's at least my perspective. My background comes from what I learned and read from Deming and Lean when I started. But how would you phrase it? Like, how do you phrase it in your book, how the F to be Agile? How do you phrase that distinction? And perhaps the balancing act between just giving enough rules to help the teams move forward, but not too many so that they get disempowered and just stand back and follow whatever they're told.
[18:29]
Erwin Fervaille
That's a good question. I think people need, they need to learn that if they do something, the consequences are not so terrible as they think. Again, that's that fear thing. I think you cannot tell people, okay, be agile or, you know, wake up one morning and bomb, you're dead. It's a process. And you can do that by letting people try and fail and learn from their mistakes and things like that. And I think as management or as management, the only thing you have to do is, okay, support her people, let them do their things, trust them. See what happens if something goes wrong. Hey, it happened. Okay, what did we learn from this. I'm currently in an environment of a company where actually this takes place. People are trying stuff, they make mistakes and things like that, and they learn from it and they don't judge. And I think it starts there. Don't judge. Let people try it out. To my opinion experts, doing their work, either they're programmers or whatever, even management people, whatever they do in the company, they like to do that work, at least I hope so. And they also know how to do it, all the techniques, all the stuff, they know how to do their work. So let them. It's a little bit. I'm not sure if Steve Jobs actually said this, but there's his phrase. He said the most stupid thing you can do is hire people and then tell them exactly how to do their work.
[20:09]
Vasco
Hire intelligent people and then tell them exactly how to do their work.
[20:13]
Erwin Fervaille
Basically, that's it. You hire people who want to be at your company, they like your products or whatever you're doing, and they're willing to put their effort, energy, knowledge and everything in there.
[20:25]
Vasco
That changes our work as coaches and scrum masters and leaders as well. Right. Because then if what you're saying is true, then our perspective needs to be that we are there to help people start to take ownership, start to make decisions on their own, and of course, being accountable for them. And you said that people need to be able to fail without the fear of punishment. I totally agree with that. But not by avoiding reflection. Right. Because very often the punishment comes from the inside. Right. Like we punish ourselves for having failed. And that may lead to avoiding reflecting on what just happened. What can we learn? How do we move forward? Right. So I guess that one of the consequences from what you're saying and what you write in the book is that we as leaders in organizations, whether we are coaches or hierarchical leaders, we need to take the stand that we are there to help people take ownership of their work, not to tell them exactly what to do and when to do it.
[21:31]
Erwin Fervaille
Exactly. And that's why I wrote a book, not to actually give answers like, you have to do this, you have to do this. You have to this. Because then I'm the same as everybody else, sort of, but I just give people the opportunity to think about stuff. Okay, you're doing agile. What is agile? You're working according to the Spotify framework. Even Spotify didn't really do it. So you're doing waterfall. What is actually waterfall doesn't even exist. There is no waterfall method. There's just a metaphor that describes a way of plan based working, which is really expensive. If you want to do it, do it. Nothing wrong with it. But in companies I also found that people are. We're not allowed to do waterfall anymore. It's the taboo. Worth is the bad thing. So we do what else is there? Okay, we do Scrum. And I'm like, there's nothing wrong with doing a plan based way of working. If it's simple enough and transparent enough, do it. And if you need something to help you to dig through really complex material, probably the Scrum framework might work. If you have a continuous flow that keeps on going, like support department, use Kanban. If you need to combine them, do it. I mean they're all just tools. And this is what I try to tell people, they're just tools. And the way you use them, that's up to you.
[23:04]
Vasco
Yeah. So of course I don't actually agree with what you said. Of course you're free to say it. Obviously I don't think that we can say there's nothing wrong with doing waterfall. In fact, we have a lot of history that shows what's wrong with doing waterfall, including why it doesn't work, its origins and so on. But I guess if I get the essence of what you're saying is that if we are going to empower people to take responsibility over how they work, we need to start by accepting that they will make the wrong decision sometimes. And as management or coaches or leaders within an organization, our job is not to say, hey, you're doing it wrong, but it's rather to say, have you considered this? Have you thought about that? And to help them reflect on what decisions they are making so that they are not just following the book.
[23:56]
Erwin Fervaille
Exactly. And to get back on the waterfall thing. The waterfall thing? Yeah, that sounds really strange. No, basically it's plan based, but it doesn't work when stuff becomes really, really, really complex. And that's where waterfall doesn't work for simple things. Perfect usage, it's plan based, plan it, calculate it, set your deadline, all the things, nothing wrong with it. But as soon as it becomes really, really complex at the beginning, you don't know how it will end and where it will go. And you need something more flexible, agile. Okay, then you use a different framework. This is what I mean. There's nothing wrong with waterfall plan based working, but use it like any tool in the right for the right occasion. So if you need to drill, that.
[24:45]
Vasco
Would be a whole other episode, but.
[24:47]
Erwin Fervaille
Exactly it would be completely.
[24:49]
Vasco
I'll let that slide for now, but maybe I'll need to get you back and have a conversation on, on that topic. Now, one of the things you talk about in the book is that Agile adoption never ends. First I want you to explain that and then we need to talk about, okay, but then how do we help teams realize that it's a process, that it's always going to be there, that it's not just, oh, now you're doing scrum, so now you can rest and never think about how you're working anymore. So first tell us, what do you mean by this Agile adoption never ends?
[25:22]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, the world change, the world keeps changing as we speak. So every time new challenges come by, new ways of thinking, working, things change. So you need to keep on adapting, you need to keep on moving with it and change the way of working, communication, all those things. I always compare it a little bit. Like I'm not sure if you have seen the movie Poltergeist a long time ago, Steven Spielberg movie. And I always use this metaphor. And in the movie, if you have seen it, there's a house full of ghosts and stuff like that, and then they hire a medium little lady who comes in with her team and, and they kind of do all sorts of stuff. And I'm not going into details here, but somewhere at the end of all that she done, she says, she comes out and says, this house is now clean and now safe. And then you look, you're sitting in the cinema, you look at your watch like, yeah, it's really nice. But the movie's just in for about 30 minutes. I still have an hour to go. So the shit is actually going to hit the fan right now.
[26:26]
Vasco
Right now. This is when the real movie starts.
[26:30]
Erwin Fervaille
Exactly. And that's the same with agile ways of working frameworks. Anything you come in, you do, you do your trick. You. So you teach people, you say, this is how it works. And then you cannot say like, okay, now you're agile. Now you are perfectly in scrum because then the shit starts. Then you have to deal with it. All the problems that you have, all the things learning and it's a continuous process, it never ends. You cannot say, now you're agile. It. It's an ongoing thing. And like I said, the world keeps changing. Now we are. Countries are at war with each other, politics is a mess. Things are. It keeps on going. And I think a couple of years ago we thought, okay, we had Covid. Finally it's gone. Now we can go back to normal life. Yeah, well, no, something else pops by. So that keeps on going and when I. Hopefully all this stuff with Russia and all the things will be over hopefully soon. But I can guarantee you after that something new comes, a new virus, a new, I don't know, alien invasion, anything. So we have to keep on adapting to those changes. And that's an ongoing, continuous process.
[27:42]
Vasco
Absolutely. And then of course, the second part of the question is right now that we understand and maybe even some of us accept that the world keeps on changing. And agile adoption is not a, how do you call it, a process installation, as some people might have called it at some point. So how do we help teams to keep on evolving instead of just falling into complacency or even worse, falling back into old habits?
[28:14]
Erwin Fervaille
I think it's really simple to stay open and be open for that change. If a team decides to, hey, we're now doing this for a while, but okay, we do it by the book. It's sort of zombie scrum or zombie combat or whatever. Maybe you should change some stuff and let's try this, like experiment with that and things like that. I had a manager of company who was really like stuck in like, no, this is what I need. I said, okay, what, what would happen if you drop it? There was a sort of way of reporting. The teams had to report something, drop it and try something else. And okay, reluctantly he did and he changed his change the way of reporting. And immediately you sensed a new vibe. The teams were like, oh, hey, now we're differently in this. This is fun. We now can talk about our goals instead of our points in estimation and stuff like that. And immediately you got to change. And that's the thing you have to do. As soon as you feel like it doesn't work, we do it by the book, but throw it out. It's just a book, it's just a manual. Doesn't mean you have to stick by it by every point and every detail. And that's also, I think, agile. Just go with the flow, see what works, throw out what doesn't work and be brave enough to embrace new ways of thinking and experiment with it.
[29:36]
Vasco
Yeah, absolutely. Being brave enough, of course, requires us to set the stage right. Like, it's not enough for the coach to be brave enough. The team and the manager need to be brave enough, just like in the story that you shared. So what are some tips and experiences you could share with us to help people really feel that they can themselves be brave enough?
[30:02]
Erwin Fervaille
One of the biggest thing is that basically me as a coach, I always try to be an example, but this I Mean you cannot teach people or coach people and saying you have to do this and not do it doing it yourself. So for example, I had a team and the company and they one day they decided to get rid of all management, one time management layer. They, they, they stopped using it. So all the managers were let off in a nice way by the way. And then one morning there was this stand up with the team and the team was like, okay, we do this, this, this. And one team member said, yeah, I need to take a day off. And I was like, yeah, okay, go take a day off. Yeah, but I have to ask my manager for that to permission. This is a grown up person my age. It was like, I have to ask my manager for permission. And I was like, what the f. No, you're, you're, you can decide by yourself. Talk with your team members. If they say, hey, go then go. And if you have enough spare days, three days, there's nothing holding your back in doing so. And, and this is something that you constantly have to show people like, don't be afraid of that. And I think we also have to change within companies. You have to change a little bit. This, this way of thinking that everything is by rules and guidelines and you only have 23 days to. I'm not sure how it's in your country, but here we have like 21, 22 free days per year difference limit per company change. Also those systems let people take off when they need it and make the work interesting and then you don't need those spare days anymore. I know there are companies in the world who actually do this. They say, hey, if you need a day off, take a day off. But be back. Because we have really cool stuff we're working on and people actually, they shorten their holidays and come back to actually work on really cool products. And so they don't need all those little guideline rules. They were made up almost 100 years ago in the industrial age. We had all those rules. We needed to give people exactly the days they can take a day off to the spare days. We actually had to tell people you have to come in at 9 and leave at 5 or whatever it is, or all those rules. And we slowly have to get rid of those things. Hybrid work is now the thing.
[32:30]
Vasco
Yeah, wherever possible. So be careful. Everybody out there, remember you still need to follow the law. But I do agree with you in the sense that we need to be the example. Right? Like if the example that we project as leaders is that we must follow rules, then of course we need to expect that teams will behave that way as well. If the example we project is that we need to adhere to the rules, but when we need to get out of go beyond the rules, we need to get agreement and then we can do it, then that's also an example for the teams. Another example that comes to mind is as agile coaches, Scrum masters, if we are always the ones having the answer right, like whenever people ask us something, we come up with the answer and always have an answer, then we're not encouraging people to think for themselves. And I think these are just a few examples of those behaviors that we need to bring to the teams that we support. Now, there's one topic we haven't touched yet, Erwin, and I know this is a topic that is of very much interest to our audience, which is, all right, so let's say that we do have the teams doing their Scrum or Kanban or Less or whatever they're doing, but they're doing it well. They're not necessarily perfect, but they're doing it well. Now we have the problem of an organization. There are many of these teams. So I guess one of the questions that I'm curious, does your book address this actually, is it possible to create a simple, adaptable way for teams to scale agile without falling into a bureaucracy nightmare?
[34:15]
Erwin Fervaille
Well, I'm going to ask a different question in return, if I may. Why do companies need to scale? Sometimes it feels to me like it's a sort of. It's the goal in itself. We need to scale. We need to. Everything needs to be connected. We have to be bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger. And my first question at companies is, why are you going to scale? I'm not talking about adopting Safe or the ideas of less or any other framework. It's not about that. But why do you want to scale? And sometimes people think, well, we have to do it because it's agile and we need to be agile. And I'm like, no, no, that's not the thing you scale because you have maybe have a few teams that work on one product and you need to work together. Then is that scaling? I don't know. It's just working together in a more efficient way. So my question is, basically, what is actually scaling for a company? Is that everybody needs to do Scrum. No, I can give you a nice metaphor, a really nice idea. This is from something called Management 3.0. I'm not sure if you're aware of that thinking, but there's a really nice metaphor thinking in it that I really like see an organization as a city. And you know, every city is a little different if you can look at worldwide, well, even more differences. But if you look in one country, every city has its own sort of unique character and there are no. Their own unique culture. You could say, and if you start living in a city, then you have to abide by that culture. Basically you can say, the mayor will say, hey, welcome in our city. This is our flag, this is our color, this is our football club. And this is how we live together and this is how we talk and do stuff. And then you have the rules basically enforced, simply said by the police, to say, hey, if you put your garbage out on Tuesday, that's not allowed, it's on Monday. If you drive with your car, this is the maximum speed limit. And all those things, those are the rules, but that's it. And then you start living in that city. And it's not so that the mayor will call you every morning and ask you, okay, hey, nice. Good morning. What are you going to wear today? How you're going to go to work? What are you going to do today? How are you going to do that? And no, that's up to you. And as long as you stay within the culture of the city, the company, and if you stay within the rules, the boundaries, the guidelines of the city or company, then you can do your things. And you know, in every city has different sort of industry. You have people who actually like to work in a sort of, well, maybe scrum, agile, iterative way. You have parts that maybe are financial that need a more. So glue by the book, all the rules. You have the creative part that actually does. We don't care, we just make art. And all this together is how a city works. This is the dynamics of a city. Same goes for a company. So you cannot use one way of working for an entire company. It doesn't work. You need different kinds of working, different kinds of mindsets in different kinds of areas.
[37:24]
Vasco
And then you need to glue it all together, of course. And that brings the question, okay, but can we do it without bureaucracy?
[37:31]
Erwin Fervaille
Yeah, and that's the biggest question. Can we do without bureaucracy? Again, see what is needed. If the cultural district needs to talk with the financial district, they will find a way to communicate to each other. And maybe you have to help it a little bit, but you don't need a new way of working for that. You don't need a new model to actually have those two ways of working to be able to work together. You just have to find a way.
[37:56]
Vasco
I guess one of the things we could say is that we need to be agile about adopting Agile. Right. It might be that certain things need to change over time and that's okay. We need to work with the system. It might be a change in one team or it might be a change in the coordination mechanisms with multiple teams. It might be a change in rules because of some financial or otherwise stated outside in type of regulation. And I guess what you're saying is we need to constantly be understanding what's working, what's not working, and then being ready to adapt, of course, together with the teams. Right? Not for the teams, but together with the teams, but being ready to adapt. Just like in cities, we are constantly adapting to changes in construction or streets change or whatever.
[38:48]
Erwin Fervaille
Exactly. I think basically it's the essence of being agile is to deal with it. You could say we don't do Agile. We do something that's known as we have to deal with it.
[39:03]
Vasco
It's just not a sexy name though, Erwin, we have to deal with it might not be a good, good product name for a process.
[39:11]
Erwin Fervaille
Yeah, no, but basically if you think about it, if you say to people, you have to be agile, you have to go to be agile. Basically what you tell people is like, hey, deal with it.
[39:22]
Vasco
Yes, learn and change.
[39:25]
Erwin Fervaille
See what happens if you don't know, try something. If it fails, well, learn from it and move along the way. And this is basically dealing with it. The basic idea of the Agile manifesto, for instance, basically there is no Agile manifesto. There is the manifesto for Agile software development. People always seem to forget that. It also said that we make software, we find ways in doing so. And basically that's it. We find ways in doing so.
[39:54]
Vasco
We're constantly learning. Exactly.
[39:56]
Erwin Fervaille
Learning. And we test. No, it doesn't work, it tests differently. We program this language, doesn't work, we to add something else. And this is essence of Agile software development. This is where the idea, the entire idea for Agile came from. And we turned it, and that's also in my book, we turned it into a sort of commercial framework selling consultancy thing. I don't know how you want to call it.
[40:21]
Vasco
Well, okay, so that, that would be a whole nother episode because of course, let's not forget that Agile was not the, the first industrial trend to start a consulting trend. We're not going to be the last. We were not the first starting a certification system. In fact, project management started that much earlier and others started before project management. So that would be a whole other discussion of how do we make Agile more adaptive? How do we grow as a community? It's a very important discussion which I hope we will continue in May in the Global Agile Summit. Hope to see you there as well Erwin, as well as our listeners. And before we go though, Erwin, I mean you opened up a lot of questions, ideas, inspiring thoughts that we can all read in Erwin's book. The link is in the show notes. All the have to be agile, so check it out. It's available almost everywhere I guess we could say so that's definitely a book recommended for all of you out there. But if people want to get in touch Erwin, and maybe, you know, have a conversation with you, learn more about the thoughts and ideas you share in the book. Where could they go?
[41:34]
Erwin Fervaille
Where could they go? I always say I'm really easily googleable, so if you just google my name you will probably combined with something Agile Scrum, say whatever you will find me. Otherwise it'll be a LinkedIn. Yeah, how can they reach Mervey? That's basically my name.
[41:54]
Vasco
And if you google and we'll put the link to LinkedIn page on the show notes. So everybody out there, why not ask follow up questions. Maybe you have a thought that you want to explore further with Erwin, don't hesitate to get in touch and contact him on LinkedIn. Erwin, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.
[42:16]
Erwin Fervaille
You're very much welcome. Thank you that I was able to be here. So thank you very much.
[42:23]
Vasco
Hey friend, thank you for staying here. Is all you need to know about the Global Agile Summit. If you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from Agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged, especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzframe words and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day, then 19th and 20th the conference day. And Talinestone is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leaders in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Adsic, who's taking an unconventional look at product growth with his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, for example, Sig Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with a contract negotiation? How agile is that? But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on, for example AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms, and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile Business track where we will talk about, for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract. Literally. I mean, I already told you about Svendit's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now, whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators, and Agile Developer for the builders making Agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the Scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who just like you, want to grow, want to share and want to learn by challenging the ideas that don't work anymore. At the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the full program and grab your ticket now@globalagilesummit.com I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May. I'll see you there.