← Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
BONUS: Captain David Marquet’s Guide to Becoming Your Own Best Coach
00:42:17
BONUS: Captain David Marquet’s Guide to Becoming Your Own Best Coach In this BONUS episode, we dive deep into Captain Marquet, renowned for transforming the USS Santa Fe from the worst-performing submarine to the best in the fleet, shares...
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- [00:04]
A
Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question.
- [00:07]
B
What if, for the price of a.
- [00:09]
A
Fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership. And it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership. That's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.
- [01:12]
B
Hello everybody. Welcome to this very special bonus episode with a guest that has been here before. And I have the pleasure to introduce to you again, Captain David Marquet.
- [01:24]
C
Welcome to the show.
- [01:25]
B
I should say welcome back to the show.
- [01:27]
C
Oh, thank you so much, Vasco, for having me on the show. And welcome all listeners and attendees.
- [01:34]
B
Absolutely. So Captain David Marquet is a former US Navy submarine commander who revolutionized leadership by empowering his crew to become leaders themselves. And if you haven't read the book, do read the book. There's a wonderful anecdote about Captain David Marquet asking someone, I don't know the exact title to basically the equivalent of put the ship in fourth gear. And the answer was, sir, the ship has no fourth gear, sir.
- [02:04]
C
Exactly. Yeah. Made a big mistake.
- [02:07]
B
And I think that was such a wonderful story to explain what later became intent based leadership model and the different aspects that make us or have the potential to make us great leaders, as in your case, transform the USS Santa Fe from the worst performing submarine to the best in the fleet. And today, Captain David Marquette inspires organizations worldwide to cultivate leaders at every level. But you have just written a new book. The book is called How Great Leaders Reframe to make better Decisions. We'll explore what that means because there's a lot of depth on that subtitle and also the title, of course. Please help us understand, David, what started, what triggered the need to write this book?
- [03:00]
C
Yeah, everything comes from the submarine. So what happened on the submarine is I learned from that experience that what I really needed was people to think, not just comply, not just do what they were told. And I'd always been a fan of thinking, not just for me, but for the whole team. But it's sort of thinking with a small T. It's like, yeah, I really want you to do your job. And if you can think, great. And so the first step on the submarine after this happened was I realized that when you start giving people orders, you give them a pass on thinking. And so my commitment was to stop giving people orders. And instead of me leaning into the team and always making things happen, the team leaned into me. And so the sense of the bias for action as well as the thinking and the initiative came from them. And it happened with this word, intent. They would come to me and say, hey, Captain, here's what I intend to do. I intend to submerge the ship. I intend to start the reactor. And so now I was like the goalie on a soccer team, where if a decision got through the whole team and came to me as a shot on goal, I would stop it. But I wanted the team to stop, you know, make the decision far from the goal, as far as possible from the goal. In other words, as close to the front line as possible. So we were very. We were very successful at doing that, and things got a lot better. But every once in a while, an officer would come to me and say, well, here's what I intend to do. And if he was the engineer, then it would be good for the engineering department, but maybe not so great for the submarine as a whole. And it would if the engineer, for example. The engineer came and wanted to shut down some switchboards to do a periodic cleaning. But I knew that the weapons officer needed the switchboards to handle torpedoes in the torpedo room. Wasn't a good plan. And I was never a fan of this, what we call Socratic questioning, which is like, well, if I ask enough questions, I'll bring you the student to my enlightened position. There was always an arrogance in that, which I found extremely annoying. So I asked different questions. I would say things like, hey, sit here. One day I said, hey, sit in my chair. I went to get a cup of coffee, came back, and I said, so, what do you think? And now the words coming out of his mouth were like he was the submarine captain, not like he was the engineer. And there was a lot it was. He was talking as if he weren't himself and representing his position. And it was a lot better in my mind. And sometimes I would ask questions. One of my favorite questions I started with doing this with myself is I would Ask myself, what would my six month from now self want me to do today? So if you have a problem and like your today self just wants to solve the problem and move on because you're so wrapped up and well I have this, that all these things in.
- [06:14]
B
A hurry on the pressure, hurry, I.
- [06:16]
C
Got time pressure, all this kind of stuff. But if you say well in six months we're looking back on this moment, I really wish I just solved the problem once and for all, really got to the root cause and fixed the structural problems that are causing this outcome to happen. And your six month, it turns out your future self is more like your ideal self. Your future, your today self. We call it the immersed self. That's what psychologists said. I paired up with Mike Gillespie, a PhD in psychologist. The your today self is the immersed self. You're captured by, oh I got to pay rent, I have this bill. Oh I got to respond to this email. Oh I got to do baba. And so there's all these competing interests. And when you say, well what would your future self want? And you can go way out to the end of your life, you say when I'm 80, what would I want to do now? It's more like your ideal self. You don't think, oh, all those like all those immediacy things fade away. And you, you really think, okay, what are my values? What do I want? What do I really want with my life? And those are the things that kind of shine for up and those are the things that are for present and salient in your mind when you make the decision as opposed to today. I have to make all these compromises and trade offs. And this is what Jeff Bezos did when he had to make a decision to leave a great job on Wall street in 1994. He saw the Internet was growing at several thousand percent per year. He's like, well this is going to be big. And he had an idea to buy books, sell books on the Internet. And he went to his boss and his boss said, well that's a great idea for someone who doesn't already have a job. And so he said, why don't you go think about it. So he went home that weekend and he was living in New York and describes kind of how he's walking around thinking about it. And he said, When I'm 80, what am I going to regret more? Am I going to regret trying this idea and failing or not trying the idea? And he decided I'm going to really regret not trying. So he had his bonus coming up he was living in New York, he had to make rent, all this kind of stuff. He had the immediacy of all that. But when you thought about it in terms of the 80 year old, that kind of fell away. And what was really important. The other thing that happens when you think about it from the vantage point of your future self is you're now looking back on the idea. It's like the idea has already happened, the decision has already happened. You're looking back on the decision. And when you think about it from that perspective, your brain thinks about it like regret. What did I miss? What could have been in my life? Versus when you're here and you're looking forward, you think about it as scary change, like everything's fine now, I'm still alive, so what's the problem? Why, why do you need to change something? And we find that there's studies behind this and my experience on the submarine, and we find that people make better decisions more in line with what they really want in life. When they think, when they, when they become their future self. Now people will say, oh, I consider the future when I make a decision, which is good. How's this going to impact my future? But it's not quite the same as actually being your future self.
- [10:00]
B
So if, if I understand you correctly, you gave two examples of kind of put ourselves in the future looking back. So we are looking at not what might be the consequences, but rather in the future, when I look back, what do I think about the decision? Not what were the consequences, but rather how do I feel? Does it reflect my identity in this case, the two examples, and maybe in the submarine it might be something else. What if I was the captain? What decision would I make? So are these kind of concrete, specific examples of the title of the book in the end, which is the distancing process?
- [10:39]
C
Yeah. So distancing means. It means psychological distancing. Basically. The problem with your decision making calculus isn't you don't have enough information, isn't gathering more market data. The problem is your internal, your egoic biases that just come from the fact that you view the decision from inside your own head. There's three we call the three B's of better decision making. Be someone else, be somewhere else, be sometime else. So we're talking about be some time else. Now look for this is really important at a very practical level for scrum masters when it comes to running retrospectives. Retrospectives are a great time for people to, since they're viewing it from me. Oh, I wrote the Code I made the decision to three weeks ago when we decided what to work on from the backlog, I, along with the team, with input from the team, I made the decision what we're going to work on. I wrote the code, I framed it that way, I put the button in that position. So it's a perfect time for people to get defensive. Yeah, and there's a nice mantra that I know some agilists use when they started a retrospective, which is supposed to mitigate people's tendency to get defensive during these retrospectives because of course, you don't get anything done. Now let's suppose if, if everyone's trying to say, well, you know, we did the best we could with the time and the resource, we have to put caveats like that because we're so we know not only do we get defensive, but we know other people. So we have talk around the problem. Well, so here's the thing. So if you say, hey, let's talk about what we could have done better on this retrospective, that's immersing you right now in you, and it's activating this defensive thing. If you say something like, hey, I want you to imagine that a team in Singapore is going to work on the same kind of project next month. It'll be someone else them to know. So now you're doing all three. One, you're not talking about you anymore, you're talking, you're helping some other team. Number two is it's in the future. So we're not. We're using the past to learn, but the focus is how can we make the future better? And number three is I made it in Singapore, which if you're in Finland or in Nice, France, then, you know, that's a long way away. And this is really interesting too. Being physically separated improves decision making. It has the same impact as that temporal separation, or thinking about it from the position of some. But yes, that's why we say these are all linked in your heads. Long ago, far away. We don't say in a galaxy long ago right next to us, we say in a galaxy long ago, far away. Why? Because in our brain all these things are connected. So long ago, far away. There was a really interesting study where they gave people a complicated optimization problem. And so it was like, choose the best car based on the following criteria. They were like six different cars and six different kinds of criteria. And the test group, the control group, they didn't prime them, but when the people, when asked, they said, well, where did you imagine you were making this Purchase. And the people said, well, like down the street and the dealer. And so the study was taking place in Buffalo, New York. And then for the test group, they said, I want you to imagine that you're making this decision in Portland, a place 3,000 miles removed from where they were. And for some reason those people, just because they imagine being far away making this decision that they may, they were able to see through the chatter and all the distracting numbers and just see the big picture. And they made better decisions than the people who thought I was just going down the street.
- [15:12]
B
This sounds very much, and I might be completely wrong here, but as I hear you describe it, this sounds very much as kind of a trigger to engage system two, like Kahnemat describes in thinking fast, thinking slow and stepping away from the system 1 immediacy or immersed self as you called it. So is that what we are trying to do? Kind of giving people concrete tools and approaches that allows them to really go into the system two thinking, which is pondered and reflective and considers other aspects rather than the decision making. I must make the decision now. System one type approach.
- [15:51]
C
Yes, that's exactly one way to think about it. And we love and we leverage off of Kahneman's work. And one of the things that happens, one of the things Kahneman said was I've done my whole life I've been studying this. I understand all these biases that come from the, the a, the system one just sort of these immediate decisions. But, but even understanding system two, there still seem to be biases. And he said, despite giving my life to this, while I can recognize the situations, I'm really no better at mitigating these biases. This mitigates those biases because when you're not you, you simply see things different. All those, you have this accumulated weight of all your decisions. Like, oh, not just decisions, but your image, how you think about yourself and you want to be consistent with, with something you did previously or the way you imagine that you are. I'm a good person, I'm a smart person, I'm a talent, talented at playing tennis, whatever it happens to be. And then therefore you need to make decisions that support and encourage that. And, and here's the pernicious part. Your brain as it takes input from the environment will curate the input. It doesn't. Well, in extreme cases it will actually block things and it will make up things. But in our day to day living, even though we don't realize this, it's always choosing, pay attention to that, ignore that, pay attention to that, ignore that, pay attention to that, ignore that. And what it pays attention to are all things that prove you're right and ignore is all the things that prove you wrong. So this is really important when it comes to us as investors or managing our own investments. Like you'll remember, oh yeah, I remember that, you know, I remember I bought in video back in whatever. You won't remember the stocks that you, that you bought and didn't do anything. You simply. So when you think back, you'll say, oh, I must be a good investor because I remember I bought Nvidia and Amazon and whatever and they all went way up. You won't remember all the other stuff that happened that didn't go anywhere or went down or that, oh yeah, I bought Nvidia at 100, but then I sold it at 120 and it went on to 1800 and split 10 for one. So your brain is always trying to convince you that you're a good person and the decisions you made were right.
- [18:25]
B
And that's actually, I think, one of the powerful aspects of this process of distancing. Right. Because when we distance ourselves from our immediate existence, we are maybe not guaranteed, but at least helped to think about what we would have done in a different condition. And you use a different time if I was someone else or if I was somewhere else.
- [18:49]
C
Right.
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B
So with that process, that process of distancing, we gain perspective, which you mentioned in the book. But also we gain almost, it's almost like a boost in the ability to process and consider information. If this is so obvious and we have so many studies in psychology already showing us this in your insight and also from your experience, because you are a world famous leader as well, what keeps us tethered to not going through this process of distancing so that we can gain that boost in the quality of decisions we make.
- [19:26]
C
Yeah. So here's the deal. We, since we experience the world from our cells, we naturally say, I had eggs for breakfast, someone cut me off in traffic at work. I am going to go to my annual review. So it's, I, me, it's all happening to me. It's the natural state of, of existence. We don't, we're in it. We don't, we don't say every five seconds, oh, I'm breathing. Oh, I'm.
- [20:03]
B
It's like water for fish, right?
- [20:04]
C
Yeah, it's like water for fish. And so you're just in it and you don't realize it. And you need. So it takes effort. It takes effort. So I was a physics Major. So we have like the way atoms have lower energy states. It's a lower energy state. It takes no effort to just be you. It takes effort to imagine you're not you. And so because it takes effort and we don't do it, and we don't realize that we're doing it. It's just the d. It's the default state is that we live in our own minds. And we were writing one article and someone said, well, can you give us some evidence of that? And there's some psychological studies that show if you ask people like to write in a. Like, if you look at people's journals, 99% of them will say, I did this, or I went on a date or I met this. It's all first person. But you can choose to journal as if you're not you. And it's very, very powerful. So you can do those for basic things. Journaling, like that is fine. But if you say, oh, Vasco has a decision. So if it's a decision like Vasco has a decision to make. Vasco's thinking of moving to. Needs France and how should he. Yeah, it's a lot warmer than Finland. But his. You wait 100 years, Finland will be warm anyway.
- [21:29]
B
Maybe even shorter. Sooner than that. Yes.
- [21:32]
C
Yeah. So. So what happens is being not you takes effort. And I like, for me, this is a crazy superpower. There was. So one of the stories we tell in the book are two business leaders, Gordon Moore and Andy Grove, who are running Intel. They founded it and Grove was like employee number four. And then now it's 15 years later. They were rich. They were rich and famous. They're running a great company. It had grown gangbusters out there in Silicon Valley. And Moore was famous for Moore's law. They were making memory chips. And memory chips in the early 80s now got pressure. There was pressure from the Asian manufacturers, and there was a recession in the United States in 83. And the combination resulted in intel for the first time ever, reporting a loss. And the memory chips were being pressured. But they had this little thing over here called a 4004 microprocessor that they couldn't keep in stock because every time they made a bet, IBM bought them all and put them in this thing called a personal computer. So they. And Grove talks about this, like, for a year they were debating, should we throw in? Because they didn't have the resources to basically play both games. They said, look, we're going to have to throw in on. If we throw in on microprocessors, we got to give up the memory chip. And they couldn't do it for a year because they were memory chips. Memory chips were them. All the previous decisions were about making memory chips. Our customers knew them as memory chip makers. And they were just. The identity was, we are memory chip makers. And so their brains. There was no market data missed problem. It's just that their brains simply kind of refused to conceive of the idea that giving up memory chips was the right answer. Finally, they're in a meeting, and Andy Grove says to Gordon Moore, what if we got fired and the board. Moore was the CEO and Grove was the president. So what if we got fired and the board brought in new people to run the company? What would the new people do? And immediately, Gordon Moore says, well, they would throw in on. On microprocessors.
- [23:59]
B
And that got us in.
- [24:00]
C
That's what they did. But, like, why? What. There's no. They didn't go out and study any Excel spreadsheets. They just. It. Because it's this filter. You're. Because once you're not you, all that baggage drops away. And. And. And so they can see it with fresh eyes. And it's like, well, of course. It's like looking at the situation, we look, we all know. I don't know. I have this. I don't know about you, but I look at my friends or my family and I'm like, oh, I can see how they're screwing up their lives. Oh, they really should do this. Or the way they're raising their kids. I don't know why they're letting them get away with that. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But they don't see it. Well, guess what? The same, exact same thing is true for you. Your friends can see how you're screwing up your life. So why is it that we. From the outside now, on the inside, you have things that other people don't know. You know what your values. You know what you tried to do? Oh, I tried to be on time. So you give yourself the benefit of the doubt. From the outside, I only see that you were late. But in many other situations, in the inside, I use the. My. I use these excuses like, hey, well, I'm a good person, whatever. So this is why I have to do it this way. And from the outside, you're like, yeah, that's. That's knucklehead. Why. Why are you doing that? And so basically, you become your own friend. You become your own coach. This is the key part. This is one of my.
- [25:30]
B
This is and actually that is the, the next topic that I wanted to cover because you just said something that is incredibly important. In the part two that you titled Be Someone Else, you talk about becoming a coach, talking like a coach. And you just said something that is critical, which is you become your own coach. And that actually triggered me thinking like this is so important because you can't coach anyone else until you embody that behavior, that way of approaching problems yourself. Right. Like we need to become coaches for ourselves. Right. So walk us through that second part and how those tools help us really understand and embody the role of a coach. Of course, first to ourselves, but then also apply that elsewhere when we are working with teams and peers.
- [26:18]
C
Yeah. So I get really frustrated dealing with leaders who describe the problem as everybody else. Well, I want my team to speak up. I want my team to be more proactive. I want my team to have a bias for action. And so number one is, is, is you're exempting yourself from the problem. And number two is all the, all the behavior change happens in your team. So I say, do you want your team to change? Well, yeah, I want, I want this guy to do this and this person to speak up more. I saw, yeah, I'm asking them to change. Well, what have you changed recently? What do you mean? Like, well, have you changed? No. Well, how about this? Start with changing yourself. Pick something. So this is one of the things early that we do with any kind of coaching is I say if you are, if you want people to change, I want you to change yourself. Because if you don't do that, you have no credibility, no sense asking other people because you don't know what it takes and you don't know how hard it is and you can't do it. So I want you to change something. So for us as intent based leaders, that's easy. You can, there's a whole bunch of ways you can ask questions differently. There's ways you can run meetings differently. There's ways you can, you can stop telling people what to do. You can stop solving their problem. Anyway. There's. But you have to change. It's not like, oh, someone's going to come and change me, they're going to reorgan. Now I'm going to be, I'm going to be changed. Now you have to change yourself. And so you have to. And the best way to think about what to do is to be your coach. We view in American football the quarterback is standing there on the field and he's got the team around him. And then the opposing team and you're in this, you're wearing this helmet, you really feel like you so. Or same thing in any sport, like when you're cycling a bicycle. But I mean, you position yourself in the peloton as you, you don't. But in football, it's, I think it's exaggerated because you like, you get hit. It happened to you. It feels meantime. And so like everything is, is from you. Everything, every distance. That person is four feet away from me. Buffalo was 2,000 miles from me. So the coach though, is sitting on the, on the corner. They're sitting a little bit higher. They're looking down, they see the whole field, they see 22 players. They see everything else that's happening. And you, they don't hit, you get hit, you get sacked. They don't feel it, they see it and they say, oh, that's terrible. But when the coach says you run off the field, you meet with the coach and the coaches, oh, you know, I got to get back to the guy. The coach doesn't care. It's like, no, what are we going to do next? What are we going to do next to win? What's the winning play? They care, but they don't care. They didn't feel it. And so you want to be in these moments, you want to be like your coach and then your coach is going to give you some advice. Then you run out back on the field and you do it because now you don't want to let your coach down. So for example, if you say, okay, I'm, I'm a swimmer and I want to come up with a swimming schedule for the week and I like to do an open water swim, but the water's getting colder. But I put, I say, now I become coach. And coach says, here, here's your four workouts. Four pool workouts, a nice warm pool. But one open water swim and it's going to get Finland cold. I'm living Florida now. Florida needs. But, but, but like, oh, you know, I don't really feel it, but, but when I get to the day for my open water swim, I don't maybe feel like it, but I don't want to let coach down. So there's this like, I don't want to let the other person down. It's almost like, I mean, you know how it is, hey, let's go meet for a run. You're going to show up. But if you say, oh, I'm just going to go run at 8 o' clock in the park and Then something comes up, oh, well, maybe I'll do it later. You won't. But you have an accountability partner, and your accountability partner is your coach, who just happened to be you in a different Persona. Makes it powerful in what to do, and then it makes it more powerful in doing it.
- [30:36]
B
And this is actually like when I was thinking about this, this is actually a very important process like this, taking the coaching Persona towards ourselves first. And it's also important because it changes something that actually links with one of your other books. Leadership is language. It changes the language we use. And one of the most powerful insights is that the moment we change the language, we change how we think, we change what information we consider, we change how we communicate. And I think that when you put these two together, the distancing that you are talking about in this latest book and then the leadership is language aspects that you talk about in the previous book, these two can become almost like a superpower, as you said when you were introducing the answer. And this is something that I would encourage everybody to just write an email two times from two different perspectives and see how different the second email comes out. Right. Because it really changes how we see the world immediately if we start by changing the language and using that extra superpower you just shared with us, which is taking a different perspective. Like the coach perspective.
- [31:47]
C
Exactly. And Vasco, that is that language that shifting it from I to he is having, like David is having a problem or shifting it from I can do it. Like, if you're running, there's a study that showed athletes were doing an endurance test and some of them said, I can do it, I can do it, I can do it. And some of them said, you can do it, you can do it, you can do it. And the people who said you could do it exerted more energy, felt a little bit better than the people who said, I can do it, because I can do it. Immerses yourself in the situation, whereas you can do it tends to separate yourself and you have a little bit more distance to see what's really going on. And you're just a little bit more perspective. Now, if you're running a trail in Norway and there's a big drop, I would really highly recommend staying in the moment and watching every foot place. So there's a time and a place for this. But maybe before and after, if you get to a branch in the trail, then you pause and you create this distant self to make these decisions. Yeah.
- [33:08]
B
It really starts with simple questions like instead of saying, what should we do? As A team, we can say, just like you introduced earlier in the podcast, if this were a team in Singapore a month from now, what would they do exactly?
- [33:22]
C
What would we want them to do? Exactly.
- [33:25]
B
So in the final chapter, you also introduce what I think is a crucial concept to talk about. Stopping time, creating intentional space for reflection and resetting. And I think that if you suggest this to someone, at least Scrum masters and agile coaches, they would immediately understand why this is important and the advantages that it might have. But a critical aspect of this is actually putting it into practice. How have you been able to do this yourself and help your clients and the companies that you work with to actually put this crucial concept in practice?
- [34:02]
C
Yeah, so this is super hard because once you start sliding into this, an immediate reactive, immersed self, it's really hard to then climb out. Because the immediate reactive, the system oneself isn't going to pause itself because it takes system two override to pause the system one. Oh, so you get cut off in traffic if they cut me off and blah, blah, blah, blah. And this is exactly the time when you want to say, hey, a month from now, is this going to matter? No. So who cares? That kind of thing. The, the best thing is you can, you, you have to plan the pauses, the best cases when you plan the pause ahead of time. This is why agile to me is one of the most magic things is because we don't say we're going to. We say, okay, pause, plan, go, but we scheduled the next pause. This is key. But we don't do that for a lot of other decisions that we make in life. And so we see teams making decisions on ships and airplanes and businesses where we'll say, okay, we're going to do it this way or we're going to do this, or we're going to change vendors, whatever, but we don't say okay. And in six months and in two years, whatever, we owe pot. We have a new strategy, but we don't schedule then when we announce it, what the pause will be. If people know there's going to be a pause, they will do two things. They will be easier for them to go in on execution, but they will also be thinking about and writing down the little journals all the things that are messed up that we need to change. When we get to that pause, if there's no other, if there's no pause, there's no sense in having that mindset. So this is again, one of the things I think that's really, really helpful is to schedule the pause. So here are Certain times when we know people will tend to become defensive if there's like a retrospective, if there's an evaluation, if you're going to do something publicly, if you're going to give a speech where some sort of a public, I mean I hear people sometimes say, oh, I don't want to be exposed or I don't want to make my team feel exposed. Well, what is this? This is just people interpreting for other people. A highly immersed self, like, oh, it's happening to me. I don't want to look funny dancing on stage at a company retreat, whatever it happens to be so. So it helps you. So you say, okay, I know these things are going to happen. I know these are prime candidates for anything that's under pressure, under time pressure, performance, public performance, anything where you are going to get criticized or you are going to get evaluated. It doesn't even really need to be criticism, just any kind of evaluate. These are going to be times and so you can think about ahead of time and really say, okay, a year from now you're a pilot. One of the stories in the book is a pilot's under evaluation and he ends up making some mistakes. Crashed in the plane because partly because he's not only be flying and things aren't going quite right, but he's being evaluated on top of it. And that tends to push him more and more and more and more and more into the submerged self. So we say, hey, what do I'm really, what do I really try and achieve here tomorrow? What am I going to think about today? Well, tomorrow all I really want is to land the plane safely. Today, when he's in it, what he wants is he wants to pass the evaluation. That's a different objective. So you get hijacked from what's important to this other thing and your brain will then say, oh, in order to pass the evaluation, there's no way we had four red lights. That's impossible because then if I had four red lights, I wouldn't pass the evaluation. Therefore you're blame. In this case, the brain actually blocked the pilot from seeing. He says later, I never saw the four red lights, but the other people in the other person in the cockpit did. Why? Because his brain says too horrific. And it just filtered it out.
- [38:11]
B
Yeah, and I think that there's an incredible value of you co writing this with your co author who's a psychologist, because this is a very in depth understanding of many psychological processes, but also translated into simple tools that we can take to our work. So thank you for sharing that with us, David. And before we go, of course, the book How Great Leaders Reframe to Make Better Decisions is available right now in your favorite book outlet. And if people want to know more about you and the work that you're doing, where should they go?
- [38:50]
C
Yeah, go to. There's three spots. One, my website, davidmarquet.com, two, LinkedIn is where we normally are doing our posting. And three is we have a YouTube channel called Leadership Nudges where we have a library of about 500 little short videos where we talk about just little, little tiny, little short daily, little weekly snippets, as much as you can handle for things to do. We act our way to new thinking. You want to do different things, not not. And we act your way to a new mindset. You don't mindset your way to new actions.
- [39:33]
B
That's a very powerful concept that many of us should really pay attention and practice. Indeed. Captain David Marquette, it's been a pleasure to have you again on the show. You're always welcome back. So whether you want to talk about a book or a new workshop you're hosting, just get in touch and we'll have the pleasure to have you on the show again. Thank you very much.
- [39:54]
C
Thanks and appreciate all your time, listeners.
- [39:59]
A
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- [40:59]
B
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- [41:01]
A
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- [41:49]
B
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