← Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
BONUS Conflict Is the Yellow Brick Road to Success — How Embracing Conflict Transforms Teams and Leaders With Dan Tocchini
00:36:42
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- [00:04]
A
Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question. What if, for the price of a fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership. And it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership. That's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.
- [01:12]
B
Hello, everybody. Welcome to a very special bonus episode. Joining us for this bonus episode on leadership and agility is Dan Tocchini. Hey, Dan. Welcome to the show.
- [01:25]
C
Thank you, Vasco. Looking forward to this.
- [01:27]
B
Absolutely. Me too. So Dan is a change agent and leadership catalyst who's been helping teams at, for example, ESPN and Homeboy Industries break through the human barriers to high performance. For over 35 years, Dan has guided leaders to move beyond functional to fully alive. And today we're diving into why aspects like fear, conflict and courage sit at the heart of true agility. So, Dan, your bio says you've spent over three decades. I'm a little bit behind you. Not too far, but a little bit behind you.
- [02:05]
C
So it's actually, it's actually around four decades, I think. 42 years.
- [02:09]
B
All right, well, then I stand in expectation of what stories you have to share because I'm sure you've collected many.
- [02:19]
C
You probably don't have time, but that's all right.
- [02:21]
B
Yeah, yeah, no, we're going to, we're going to be laser focused.
- [02:25]
C
For an old man, this is a dream. I get to tell stories.
- [02:27]
B
There you go. There you go. And we get to listen and learn, which is awesome. So how did you first step into this kind of transformation work? At what moment did you say, hey, this is my calling, this is what I want to do?
- [02:42]
C
Well, I, you know, I came out, I had a pretty troubling childhood. My mother was a schizophrenic and a manic depressive. Had her first psychotic break when I was about 12, so. Had two brothers and a sister. And so it was. Went through some pretty traumatic times. Learned I became the go between. Between my mother and the psychiatrist. There was a time when they were thinking about doing. Giving her a lobotomy, because that was what they did in the 60s and the early 60s. And I was able to talk my dad out of letting that happen and to give me a chance to see if I could connect with her and was able to do that and just started reading at a young age a lot. I think the first book I read was 12 years old. I read Gestalt Therapy verbatim because I was going to. They were. They were bringing some of the folks from Eslon into the hospital in Marin to debrief me and that kind of stuff. It was a pretty hairy situation and so troubled go forward. Had a tough childhood. Left home at 16. And then I was a good athlete, so tried to play some football. Broke my foot, got involved in drugs. Pretty rebellious. You know, my father said, you should play baseball. They last longer. So I played football just to piss him off, you know, I was. Just. Had a chip on my shoulder, angry. And got pretty deep into drugs at a young age and. And dealing drugs and. And just a lot of illegal stuff. And had left college. Got myself, I think, pretty deep into stuff, and then met this beautiful woman who's now my wife. Been married with. Been together for over 50 years. Been married for 47, something like that. And it really opened my eyes. I started to. I was dealing. A lot of the drugs I was dealing was with her brother, and he died in a. In a deal. And it just set me up about how I was wasting my life. And I've always been. I'm a voracious reader, right. And had all this experience with my mother and realized, you know, what I needed to do was straighten my head up. And so I. I started doing it about. I got into some. My dad is. I come from an entrepreneurial family, so I kind of reconciled with my father and had. He helped me get into the movie business. I had movie theaters and became entrepreneurial. But during that time, I really. I had a faith experience, you know, really wanted to clean up my life and build a family. I started to realize that the breaking up of my family was a big wound and I really wanted a family and so started to do a lot of work in that domain. And plus, I'm running a business, so I had multiple employees, I had multiple businesses and. And started to apply it not only at my family, but in working with, you know, the people I was working with. And as Time went on, I started consulting. I bought and sold businesses and did a lot of. A number of different things. And I started consulting and found that I had the experience that I had at a young age was helpful for other people, particularly operationally. Right. And my biggest contract, I remember it was in the early 90s, mid-90s ESPN I got, I had developed a leadership training that the director of HR from ESPN had done and she was so moved, she sent me this RFP to because they're going to restructure their finance department. And you know, I'm a one man shop. I've got a couple of people I could, you know, contract in and I went and made the pitch and there were three clients, three different consult me and two other consulting companies, McKelty, Goldsmith. Goldsmith was a big company then and, and McKinsey and I won the contract. And I won the contract because they had us come in and work with the staff and it kind of really set me, set something in place for me, realizing that I could compete. And we had re interviewed the staff and then we were supposed to write up this report about. Because they had a 75 turnover rate. And so I had interviewed the staff, all the executives around this CFO and he had just come on about a year or two before. He just retired recently. Her name is Chris Dries and brilliant, brilliant woman. And I remember that after we submit our thing and we did our day, we got our day with the team and then we submit our proposal and then we got to come in and I flew out to talk, you know, to do a face to face. And I sat down and I could see the other company's proposals and they were like that thick. And I had a three page proposal. And she says, so what do you think the problem is? And I, I was really, it was, it was a, it was a one of those, you know, crossroad moments when I. Am I going to lie to her? It's her, she's the problem. I can see from all the research I did is she's just needs to, you know, listen to her team, you know, like that. So I thought about it and I said to her, well, you know, I'd really like. This contract's a big opportunity for me at my company. But I, it's pretty simple. You're the problem. And she goes, oh really? Tell me more. I said, well look, you know, you're brilliant, there's no doubt about that. You. Are you aware that a lot of the team out there kind of a nickname for you. And she Goes, oh, what's that? I said, hatchet lady. And she laughed.
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B
And I said, oh, she had the sense of humor. That's not a bad.
- [08:49]
C
No, it's good. And I said, look, you know, these guys come from the top schools in the nation. You're hiring all these guys from these top business schools. And they didn't. There's a lot of legacy systems. They want to transform and change and improve your operations, but it's like you don't have a lot of time for them. And when they talk to you, I don't think you realize your impact when you communicate in the power differential. And I said, you know, so they just get up and leave. You know, they basically say, I'm done. I don't want to deal with it. And she said, do you have any ideas about how I can improve? And I said, yeah, I can coach you. And so, you know, took me on, did some work with her. It turned around really quickly. She went from a 75% turnover rate down to like a 15% over a period of six months. Then they. She hired me to do some negotiating work with her International division. They were just working into the international. That was the division that wasn't making money at the time. And we had good results there. And I stayed with ESPN for eight years. They referred me over to Disney, and Disney referred me to. The gal at Disney referred me to somebody over at Interstate Battery. And pretty soon I'm.
- [10:00]
B
So one of the things from this story is your ability to connect with the situation and also with the person. When you think about that ability that you developed over the years, like, how do you see others? And for example, us grandmasters who need to do a lot of work with leaders. That's a majority of our work. How can we start learning that?
- [10:23]
C
You know, it's one of the. I think people you've got to be willing to be vulnerable. That's the bottom line. That's the superpower. You know, for me, I didn't want to bullshit this gal because I knew if I got the job and I lied about it, then I'd be trying to fulfill something I didn't believe was really the problem. You know, I didn't. I would be solving something I didn't believe was really the problem. And the other thing is, I listened really closely when she talked. I mean, that's the first thing I. I wanted to connect with her. I could tell she was under pressure. She was fairly new in the position. I think it was her second or third year, and she was kind of beside herself about how this could be happening. She seemed to be in good faith. So I think listening is a big deal. And listening. When I say listening, I wasn't just listening to her. I was listening to what I was making up about what she was saying. And that enabled me to ask a lot of questions, to understand fully what she was saying, which helped me frame that when I. I didn't just come in and say, it's you, but I could, you know, there was some rapport. I knew she was. Wanted to understand what was on. And she said to me, I don't even understand. You're hired. She said, I don't understand what they're talking about. I understand what you're talking about. And I was in. But I think just the vulnerability, being honest, being willing to lose the account to get it right, you know, like I'd rather have it on, on an honest basis where I'm. She knows what I'm thinking, what I'm aiming at. And we're shoulder to shoulder, not head to head.
- [12:04]
B
Yeah, that's actually a great point because very often we are, meaning us, grandmasters, technical leaders, team leaders, we are in positions where we need to make a call. We need to decide to please somebody in power and get to play the next move or displease somebody in power and risk not being able to play the next move.
- [12:28]
C
Yeah.
- [12:30]
B
And you said, you know, you need to be vulnerable, be ready to accept whatever comes because it might not go your way. But how do you prepare yourself for that? Because it's not easy, especially for people who depend on their employment or their client for their livelihood.
- [12:48]
C
Well, that's a big question, Pasco. I think you prepare yourself by not lying to yourself. You know, just, you know, I told this gal, hey, look, are you ready to be offended? Because this may be offensive, what I have to say, and I. Because I know that I'm thinking that. So I just shared with her what I was thinking. But I think that goes along, you know, I really think coming out of. I've been clean for 40 something years, but to get clean, to get from where I was to where I could actually work and integrate into society required some real honest honesty, truth telling, and also be open to other people. Truth telling. And I went through a whole, you know, all 12 steps. And one of the steps was extremely powerful, which is making it. They're all powerful, but they build up to, you know, but the craziest thing is making amends. And when you go make amends to somebody, you've Got it. You're going to reconcile. You, you really got to hear what impact you had on them. Even if you didn't intend that. What, what was the impact of your negligence or, you know, of my negligence, of my dishonesty. And to be able to hear that and receive it and not defend it and not, not tell myself, well, they don't understand me, but just kind of let it sit and wake me up. And I think that has feedback is really valuable, real time, you know, valuable feedback. Like I want to hear my clients, I want to hear the people I work with. And, you know, I've gotten myself in trouble with teams before by not listening or by assuming I knew where they were, you know, because it's not like you do it once and it's over. If you're not aware of how easy it is for whatever your particular strategies are to avoid pain. And we all have them. If you're not aware of them, then you can't catch them when they come up.
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B
In fact, that's a great segue to this concept that you often talk about. The mantra, conflict is the yellow brick road to success. Can you unpack that?
- [15:08]
C
Right on. Look, what you're not willing to face will eventually defeat you. So when people are in conflict, there's one of two things are going to happen. They're either going to try to avoid the conflict and maintain some sense of comfort, or they're going to realize that what stake. What's at stake, and they're going to face into the con. They're going to find a way to understand the conflict. The, you know the old saying, the stoic saying, the obstacle is the way. So to under. To really find the way in the obstacle, one must hug the cactus. One must pull the problem close and understand it from as objective a place as possible and sift through it. Because if I really understand the problem, what opens up is openings. What happens is you discover openings and most people listen for outcomes. I listen for openings. They're distinct.
- [16:15]
B
Can you, can you illustrate?
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C
So let's say, okay, yeah, I got a good one. I used to work with sales teams quite a bit. And if you work with sales teams, you get familiar with making commitments, promises, quotas. I'm going to sell this many this week, I'm going to make this many calls. Etc. Now once you make the, the commitment, when I'm talking to salesperson and I want to listen for an opening. So let me give you an example. So a guy comes in, he says, I'll never forget this. I was Working with some car sales. And, and this guy comes in and says, these guys are really, this guy's really upset. He doesn't like the price of the car and he thinks we're ripping him off. And I said, okay, let's go talk to him. So I sit down and the guy goes, I can't stand. I, I, I, you know, I want to buy this car, but I feel like you guys are ripping me off. I said, okay, I, I can hear that. I, I can understand why you're angry. No kidding. If you think we're ripping you off, you, I'd be angry too, right? So immediately he goes, what do you mean? I go, well, look, if, think about this. You're going to act congruently with the way you think the world is. And if you think we're trying to rip you off, well, you're going to be suspicious. You're going to try to find things where we're lying to you. So tell me if you can, where do you think we're lying? And he went through it and I said, if I show you the, I'll show you, I'll show you the documentation, I'll show you everything we got. And you know, we are here to make money, right? So I've got to make some money on the car. But if I show you everything, then will you be willing to negotiate a decent profit for us as well so we can keep our doors open? And the guys like looking at me because of course I would. And so I brought out all the paperwork. I probably showed him the trunk money. I show, I mean, all kinds of stuff. And he, and, and I made 17% on the car. He was fine on 17%. I let him choose it. That's more than the average at the dealership at the time. So, you know, the, that's an example. And there are, you know, and the guy I was working with was a partner with Grant Cardone, and that's what they were doing. They were, they were interrupting the, the car sales, the, you know, how car sales were being done. And this guy had worked with Grant and went off on his own and started out and had hired me to help him intervene. Open up. How to get, how do you get a dealer? How do you get people's attention? You know, and first you have to sell the dealership, then you have to sell the clients, you know, the, the people who come in. And a lot of that starts with just telling the truth.
- [19:08]
B
And if you can't, it's interesting why.
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C
You shouldn't be doing It.
- [19:11]
B
And that in that story, you also do. Did that. That is, I think, really powerful, but also very interesting from the perspective of listening to openings, as you said, which basically you leaned into the conflict first. Acknowledgement.
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C
That's right.
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B
Right. Like it's. It's there. So let's. Let's not hide it. You know, if. If. If I thought I was being ripped off, I would be pissed too.
- [19:35]
C
Yeah. And now that's an opening. Right. I don't have to worry about selling him in the car. I want to explore the opening because that created a trust enough for the guy so we could step by step. And then the outcome came out of the opening. So just getting. Most people, when something comes up that could risk, like you might. You might not get what you want, we try to go around it instead of invite it. Invite it. Be okay with not getting what you want. What you want if that's really what needs to happen. Because it'll come somewhere else. I. It's hard.
- [20:11]
B
Is that also what you mean by generative conflict?
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C
Generative, yeah. Yes. Generative conflict. I want. So the conflict is designed to generate a deeper relationship. If you're married and you have a working relationship, you'll probably find that the breakdowns in the. In the relationship should deepen intimacy. The same thing with your team or with a client multiple times. We have messed up with clients. And because we've authentically faced into it, I'd say 90% of the time, we deepen the relationship. And the contracts either go on or they come back. But people will continue to roll up their sleeves and work with you because they get your shoulder to shoulder, and you too, make mistakes and you're owning them, and you're gonna, you know, you're gonna be better the next time. Right? So.
- [21:01]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And this generative conflict is about creating the opportunity to grow something out of the conflict. Right. Like in, you know, in. In. In a partnership or a marriage. It's about deepening the emotional intimacy, as you just said. But of course, at work, it might be for many other reasons. But what are some of the ways in which you have found that it is effective to lean into that conflict, to use its energy to create a better relationship with the teams that we lead and the leaders that lead us?
- [21:38]
C
So that's a good question. What are some of the ways is your. I. Well, the first way is to listen. Second. But I'm. When I'm listening to myself, I notice when I'm afraid of losing something and I need to suspend my investment in the outcome. That's what I mean by outcomes. Detach from the outcome. Get committed to understanding the opening that's in front of you and just explore that, because that'll deepen trust. If somebody sees you're standing next to them, looking at what they're looking at, understanding how they feel about it and exploring with them from their perspective, it immediately builds trust. And you'll know better. You'll know, like, if, if I see that somebody's not going to be well served by doing what I'd like them to do, well, then it's not good to have them do it. Because the long. In the long run, they're just going to back up on you and they're going to be resentful and that's going to be bad word of mouth in the market, you know, And I've done that. I've. I've worn that T shirt. And that's not something. It just. It takes ten times as much energy to get over a bad report as it does to just deal with it honestly in the first place. Yeah.
- [22:53]
B
And to deal with it honestly. It's about listening, connecting with the person by detaching from the outcome. Because if you, if you're interested in an outcome, then you can't connect with the person.
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C
That's right. You're connecting with the person.
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B
They might not be aligned. Right. Like, the outcome might not be aligned. One of the other aspects that you talk about is these leaders that, that face you call the team drama. Can you describe that and what patterns do you notice the most happening out there regarding this concept that you define as team drama?
- [23:28]
C
Well, drama usually happens because people are siloed and they get siloed because they don't trust. When departments silo, it's because they don't want to share information because they don't trust the other, what the other department's going to do with the information. So they only share the information they think is going to serve what they want to get done without jeopardizing their position or their role on the team. So there's all kinds of drama that comes up to distract from what people don't want you to see. Whenever there's drama, it's because people don't want you to see something. And the dramas are, you know, if you think about it, you know, young kids do this all the time. You know, Vice, if they, if they can create a drama, you're not like, if, if you catch them doing something and they get upset and they throw a tantrum, pretty soon you're dealing with the tantrum, not what they did. Right. So it's the same things in, in adults. They're going to create something to distract you from what they don't want to see. So usually if there's drama, I just want to understand the thinking behind it. And I, and I'm doing two things. I want to, I want to know what the results are like, what, what is it they're committed to causing? What. How much of what they're committed to causing are they producing and what's the story in between the two. Now, the way you find. So when you do that, you'll find that usually if I ask somebody what they're committed to, they're usually upset because it's not happening, but they're blaming external circumstances or somebody else or history, you know, and they've their vision, their aim is to get off the hook, not have it turn out. And, and that's. That takes. This is not like, I can't give you five steps. It requires the willingness to understand the distinctions because the problem is never the problem. The problem is how you think about the problem. So I got the idea is to get back into the thinking, which is to understand the la. The conversation the person's in that's justifying the current results that they have. And the drama is about. They don't think they can go any further. They've done their best. You know, you could, I can riddle any, Any leader knows a million stories that tell you this person's stuck and they're not. They have no intention on getting off it.
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B
Yeah. And, and it might be like unwittingly blocking themselves. Of course.
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C
That's right. They're going to believe their story and they're going to.
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B
That's why they are stuck.
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C
That's right. That's right. They're going to defend their limitations and that becomes their inheritance. I actually tell them that. I go, if you keep defending what didn't work, you're going to continue to experience more of what you say you don't want. Right?
- [26:30]
B
Yeah, that's a great phrase. In your work, you also talk about restructuring for agility. What do you mean by that then?
- [26:40]
C
It's a mindset. You want to be able to structure your, your governance and your, your team in a way that people, It's. You want to be able to move dynamically with the situations you face. And if you're rigidly structured hierarchical, hierarchically, and people are more about their positions than what they're aiming at, then there you've got to slow things down and have people talk, realize that it's, it's like, I'll give you, I guess the best way is to tell a story. So I have, I do this leadership academy and in the leadership academy we talk about excellence and, and structuring. You know, basically dynamic being dynamic being able to flow with, with what goes on. And I take them out. It's, it's a, it's a 60 day process. Three weekends they were in person three weekends we give them homework, they coach people in between. And then the second time they come out, the second weekend I take them to dinner to a restaurant here in Boise. It's rated in the top 25 restaurants in the country. And it's food quality is fantastic. It's not high end, it's, but it's just unbelievable. It's a machine. And I haven't sit and notice I haven't come in and sit before we eat, do anything. I just said we just watch the operation. And every time inevitably they'll say, wow, that's the general manager. And the general manager is doing everything. You know, if he has to, he's operating, you can see he's working between the kitchen and the front of the house, the back of the house. But you know what, he's walking down, he's talking to people. If a table needs to be bust, he'll move shit off the table. He's, he's, he's a team member, he's flowing and. But when he gives an order, you watch people move. Like he says, would you go get that? Bang. They go get it. They really. And I've talked to, and I interview him. Like, what do you like? And these are kids in college here in Boise. They, I go to that restaurant the last three years, same kids working there, very little turnover. And when I talk to them, they love working with this general manager because, and they, they, they rise up to do whatever he says. But he never, you never seen, I've never seen him, you know, use his positional authority to move people. They, they enjoy working with them. And he, I've seen him reprimand people, I've seen him train people, but never in a threatening way. More like, hey, that's not working, you know. And you watch his team and it's amazing. They're all like that from the bus.
- [29:18]
B
Let's, let's break that down. So what are the aspects that make this specific general manager so able to flow?
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C
One, one is, I've watched him, he grounds his team before that restaurant Opens, they meet, they have a conversation. There's, there's. And it's not just him talking. They're all talking about what they need to do. I noticed he opens up because I've, he's a friend of mine. I go in and I really want to know what he's doing. And he, he'll open his meetings with, just catching up with people. And then, okay, here's where we're going. And they eat together. And he's explaining, and they're explaining the dishes and they're back and forth. They're giving feedback to the cook, to the chefs. And the chefs are listening and giving feedback about what they like. I mean, it's amazing to watch them. And then when they're done, they, they go over their duties, they talk about who's running which section and, and it's like there's. Everybody wants to do it.
- [30:15]
B
Well, no wonder. I mean, if he starts connecting with people right off the bat, everybody's going to feel at home.
- [30:21]
C
Yeah, he's very open handed. It doesn't waste words. He, he gets right to the point. No, that won't work. I don't like that. Tell me why you want to do that. I've seen him do that. Tell me why you want to do that. Because I don't get it. And if he gets it, fine. If he doesn't get it, he goes, no, I'm not going to do that. We're not doing that tonight. Right. Like that kind of thing. It's, it's one of those things. It's a way of being with people. When you structure something, your way of being either brings the structure alive and then if you, if you try to give the structure credit, if you try to make the structure, the. It's not going to solve the problem. It's only going to organize it and so you can see it better. You then need to, Your way of being needs to be bigger than the structure. And I don't know, it's very, I've watched if people get dogmatic, they're just on the structure. If they're, if they're committed to what the structure is designed to accomplish, they'll alter the structure in. Right in motion in order to have.
- [31:21]
B
It work in the service of the goal. That's right, yeah. So, Dan, and how about you? I mean, you've been doing this for so many years. What keeps you inspired and keeps you doing this work after all these years?
- [31:35]
C
People. I love working with people and I love working with people to accomplish something. I love A challenge, a big challenge. And if I to define what the outcome will look like and then to work with people to get that done. To me it's akin to family, you know, it's that kind of connection. And people love to accomplish things they didn't think they could do. And to me that's exciting, you know. Yeah.
- [32:01]
B
It's funny because I use the exact same words when people tell me, ask me, well, what do you do? Of course I could give them all the technical details, but I usually just say I help people do things that not even they thought were possible.
- [32:14]
C
Right on. I usually start with we turn leadership into leadership. What does that mean?
- [32:21]
B
I'm not even going to blip that just so that people listen to it.
- [32:26]
C
Then it's on our website. It's on our website. If you go to our website.
- [32:30]
B
I'll put the link to the website in the show notes for sure. Dan, we're getting close to the end. But before we go, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing?
- [32:40]
C
Take Newground.com is our website. We have two public trainings on there. We do, we do two training, two leadership type trainings. One of them is called the Revenant Process. It's a five, four day intensive, extremely intense and that goes into the mindset of thinking, the mindset of leadership and really works pretty deep into people's lives. The second one, and our clients send their leaders often and then we have people from the general public who come. We usually take between 30 and 40 people for that. Then the second thing is we have the Intrepid, which is the academy for effective leadership, which is what I talked about when I went to the restaurant. And we basically work with people on causing results through people. And the key skill there is coaching which goes into listening, which we talked about before, and deeply listening and knowing how to speak and ask make requests, powerful requests to move people forward. We do that and that's on the website. But the rest of it's our services which are consulting services. I have a pretty good sized team. We do everything from governance and, and, and boards, you know, structuring boards to leadership development, strategic implementations, mergers, acquisitions, turnarounds, that kind of stuff.
- [33:58]
B
And we'll put the link to all of those in the show notes and of course everybody go there. Take newground.com check out the offers and why not send a few questions Dan's way. Maybe he has some tips for to share with you just like he shared with us today. Dan, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.
- [34:18]
C
Thanks Fesco. Really appreciate it.
- [34:25]
A
All right, I hope you liked this episode, but before you hit next episode, here's the deal.
- [34:31]
B
This podcast is powered by people like you.
- [34:34]
A
The members who wanted more more than just inspiration. They wanted real tools and real connection to people who are practicing Agile. Every day we're talking access to over 700 hours of agile gold, CTO level strategy talks, Summit keynotes, live workshops, E courses, Deep Dive interviews, books, and if you're into no establishment, we got the pioneers of no Estimates in those Deep Dive interviews as well. Agile Business Intelligence, creating product visions, coaching your product owner courses, you name it. You'll get invites to monthly live Q&As with agile pioneers and practitioners, plus a private Slack community which is free of.
- [35:25]
B
All of that AI slop you see every.
- [35:28]
A
And of course without the flame wars. It's a community of practitioners that want to learn and thrive together. It's the best place to connect with community and learn together. So if this podcast has helped you before, imagine what you will get from this podcast membership. So head on over to scrummastertoolbox.org for and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the details@scrummastertoolbox.org membership because listening is great, it's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community Slack.
- [36:18]
B
We really hope you liked our show. And if you did, why not rate this podcast on Stitcher or itunes? Share this podcast and let other Scrum masters know about this valuable resource for their work. Remember that sharing is caring.