Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast (BONUS): Consulting is Different—How Consulting Contracts Work Against Agile Development

Guests: Jakob Wolman & Wilko Nienhaus

Host: Vasco Duarte

Date: October 10, 2025

Episode Overview

In this special bonus episode, Vasco Duarte hosts Jakob Wolman, an experienced engineering leader and article contributor to the Global Agile Summit book, and Wilko Nienhaus, CTO of a Tallinn-based consulting company. The discussion centers on how software consulting is fundamentally different from in-house product development, with a particular focus on incentive structures, project ownership, stakeholder dynamics, feedback cycles, and contract mechanics—especially the ways “classic” consulting contracts often undermine agile ideals. The episode is rich in stories, practical observations, and candid reflections from two experts who’ve lived the challenges of both worlds.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Shoemaker’s Children” Effect (03:07–05:10)

• Jakob shares a story about the irony of consulting: consultants are great at helping clients optimize processes but often neglect their own inefficiencies.
  • Example: Digital agencies may talk a good game, yet their own websites reveal neglected practices.
  • “It's a case of cobbler's shoes, right? Like we help clients as consultants, but in the end we don't do enough of helping ourselves...” —Vasco (04:55)
• Wilko echoes this, noting that consulting agencies rarely prioritize their own infrastructure due to client demands.

2. Stronger Walls: Stakeholder-Developer Separation (05:35–08:07)

• Wilko: Consulting engagements create an even more pronounced separation between the people requesting software and those delivering it—a “procurement mindset.”
  • Clients tend to provide long lists and disappear until it's time to receive deliverables, often expecting perfection with little ongoing involvement.
• Jakob: “It's two different entities, but it's two different incentives.”
  • Consultants are paid by the hour, incentivized toward more billable time; clients want business value as quickly and cheaply as possible.

3. Conflicting Incentive Models (08:07–11:13)

• Wilko: “It's almost as if the clients are actually paying us to be slow because our incentive is to spend more time on achieving what the client wants… It's not what we internally want, but it is still fairly easy to see it that way.” (08:47)
  • The structure of standard consulting contracts often rewards more hours worked, not better outcomes.
• Jakob: While most consultancies want to deliver quality, unless you deliberately fix the incentive misalignment (via contracts or collaboration), the system undermines agile effectiveness.

4. The Illusion of Requirements: “Deliver Exactly What I Asked For!” (11:13–15:31)

• Vasco: Consulting exacerbates the “I already know what I want” fallacy. Specs are treated as gospel, with change requests leading to blame and additional cost.
  • “In Agile we very often say people will always know what they don't want, but first they need to see it, but they never know what they want.” (12:53)
• Jakob: Most clients lack deep technical awareness. Non-functional requirements and quality attributes become forgotten, and consultants must fill the gap as advisors.
  • “If I find a product manager that comes and says we're going to do this because I say so ... that to me is a red flag immediately.” (14:35)

5. Budgeting Cycles Breed Waterfall Behavior (15:36–18:09)

• Wilko: Annual budgeting processes force clients to push every conceivable feature into the initial scope, incentivizing over-specification and bloat.
  • “Everybody now wants to basically get everything they can possibly think of into the spec. Because there's only one budgeting process.” (16:02)
• Jakob: This is a classic waterfall dynamic re-emerging due to organizational silos and contract structures, despite the body of agile knowledge available.

6. Ownership, Continuity, and Short-Term Mindset (18:09–21:48)

• Vasco: In-house engineers have long-term code ownership, whereas consultants have less incentive to ensure future maintainability.
• Jakob: Skilled engineers want to do quality work. If forced repeatedly to cut corners, they become numb and indifferent.
  • “If you don't succeed in deliberate collaboration with the customer ... you just say, we're in it for the short term, just fix this thing, get it out there.” (19:53)

7. Feedback Cycles: The Heart of Agility (23:42–26:04)

• Wilko: Longer feedback cycles (“big-bang” releases) reinforce waterfall. True agility correlates with shortening the loop between delivery and feedback.
  • In consulting, real-world feedback for developers can take too long; this can lead to either unnecessary overengineering or blindly following specs.
  • “The longer the feedback cycle, the more we are pushed towards a waterfall way of working. The shorter the feedback cycle, the faster we move into a more agile way of working.” —Vasco (23:53)

8. Success Story: Iterative Delivery in Consulting (26:04–29:24)

• Wilko recounts a transformative moment: convincing a client to define a “go-live” for a new e-commerce site after a single two-week sprint.
  • They focused on the smallest, most valuable slice: one real customer making one order—cutting scope dramatically, which improved clarity.
  • Surprising findings emerged, like the realization that internal sales staff had no incentive to shift orders online.
  • “Once you change the dynamics, let's release in two weeks...the mindset of people completely changes.” —Vasco (29:28)

9. The AI Opportunity (30:46–31:14)

• Jakob: New AI tooling supports iterative prototyping and early feedback, which can help break old waterfall patterns by making progress more visible, faster.

10. Maintainability & Quality: Non-Negotiable Practices (32:03–36:45)

• Jakob: “We are the experts. You are paying us for building this because you trust that we are the experts. It simply shouldn't be a choice.” (32:09)
  • Infrastructure, testing, and maintainability must be included “by default”—not as optional extras.
  • Some consultancies (e.g., those using XP strictly) succeed by making their high standards a contractual and cultural non-negotiable.
• Wilko: Clients may resist practices like automated testing due to cost concerns, but demonstrating how these save time and money is crucial.
  • Example: Automated tests let developers quickly verify changes instead of repeatedly clicking through UIs (“...even without comprehensive coverage, you can actually speed up by having good tests.” —Wilko, 35:08)
• Jakob: The industry’s “race to the bottom” sometimes leads consultancies to underbid, promising the moon, then cutting corners—which harms everyone in the long run.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It's a case of cobbler's shoes, right? Like we help clients as consultants, but in the end we don't do enough of helping ourselves...” —Vasco Duarte (04:55)
• “Clients are actually paying us to be slow because our incentive is to spend more time ... It's not what we internally really want, but it is still fairly easy to see it that way.” —Wilko Nienhaus (08:47)
• “We all want to deliver good work... but we're not incentivized to be more effective.” —Jakob Wolman (10:10)
• “In Agile we very often say people will always know what they don't want, but first they need to see it, but they never know what they want.” —Vasco Duarte (12:53)
• “Everybody now wants to basically get everything they can possibly think of into the spec. Because there's only one budgeting process.” —Wilko Nienhaus (16:02)
• “The best consultancy and customer collaborations ... have some kind of iterative approach—not only with a stakeholder at the customer, but also with the customer's customer.” —Jakob Wolman (24:33)
• “When you change the dynamic to ‘let's release in two weeks,’ then the mindset of people completely changes.” —Vasco Duarte (29:28)
• “Most often I just simply think it shouldn't be a choice. Like we have to be very firm on this is how we work.” —Jakob Wolman (32:03)
• “In terms of ownership, people express more pride and care when they control the team as a stable unit... Engineers want to do a great job, but eventually you just numb down when it doesn't really matter.” —Wilko Nienhaus (22:10)

Important Timestamps

• 03:07 – “Shoemaker’s children” metaphor; consultants’ internal flaws
• 05:35 – Procurement mindset in consulting vs. product companies
• 08:24 – Incentive misalignment explained
• 12:53 – The fallacy of “knowing what you want” in specs
• 15:36 – Budgets drive bloated specs (waterfall legacy)
• 19:08 – Ownership and continuity: team motivation differences
• 23:53 – Feedback cycles: key to agility
• 26:04 – Real-life iterative delivery story
• 32:03 – Maintainability and quality: making it non-negotiable
• 35:08 – Automated testing & efficiency in consulting
• 39:14 – Book recommendations for agile consulting

Resources & Further Reading

• Jakob's recommendation: The Secrets of Consulting by Jerry Weinberg
  • “I think it's the best book on how to be a good consultant, a good advisor, and how to kind of help your clients in the best way.” —Jakob Wolman (37:18)
• Wilko's recommendation: Real World Agility by Nick Brown
  • Focuses on data and statistical approaches to agile—especially helpful for making sense of progress and breakdowns in consulting contexts.
• Both recommend connecting via LinkedIn (see show notes).

Overall Tone & Takeaways

This episode is a refreshingly candid and pragmatic exploration of the systemic challenges in agile consulting. The guests’ tone is thoughtful, humble, and grounded in hard-won experience—balancing realism with a clear-eyed view of what healthy, effective consulting can look like. Listeners are left with valuable strategies, from contractual reframing to hands-on stories, and a reminder that mutual incentives, rapid feedback, and stubborn respect for quality are keystones of successful agile consulting.