Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches
Episode: BONUS Escaping the Agile Doom Loop With Pete Oliver-Krueger and "Agile Mike" Dougherty
Release Date: March 12, 2025

Introduction

In this special bonus episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Jasko engages in a deep dive with two esteemed guests, Pete Oliver-Krueger and Michael "Agile Mike" Dougherty. Both are co-authors of the book Shift from Product to People and bring a wealth of experience in Agile coaching and leadership. The focus of their discussion centers on identifying and escaping the "Agile Doom Loop," a common pitfall where Agile practices become stagnant and demotivating.

Understanding the Agile Doom Loop

Michael Dougherty begins by elucidating the concept of the Agile Doom Loop, describing it as a state where teams feel trapped in a continuous cycle of unproductive routines without meaningful progress. He states:

"When change doesn't happen and there is nothing that seems to go anywhere, that's when you know you're in that doom loop."
[03:16]

Key indicators of the Doom Loop include:

• Stagnation: Teams feel stuck in a repetitive cycle without improvement.
• Lack of Leadership Support: Leadership often dismisses teams' impediments, leaving them to fend for themselves.
• Demotivation: Continuous pressure without visible progress leads to decreased morale and fear of career repercussions.

Pete Oliver-Krueger complements this by sharing his observations from organizational settings:

"Leadership comes in and says not good enough... they can't do anything about these impediments."
[05:00]

He highlights how teams, despite adhering to Agile practices, fail to achieve desired outcomes due to inadequate support and recognition from leadership.

Identifying Early Signs of the Doom Loop

Jasko probes further into early warning signs that a team might be sliding into the Doom Loop. Pete outlines diagnostic questions he employs:

1. What Does Leadership Want?

   • Often, teams struggle to articulate leadership's true objectives beyond surface-level directives like "deliver the product by a certain date."

2. Evidence of Improvement:

   • Teams frequently lack concrete metrics to demonstrate progress or the effectiveness of implemented changes.

Jasko summarizes this as teams being stuck in a "continuous deliver more stories" mindset without understanding underlying issues or strategic directions.

The PAGES Framework: Bridging Teams and Leadership

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the PAGES framework, a strategic approach devised by Pete and Michael to facilitate meaningful communication between Agile teams and leadership.

Pete explains:

"We're looking at what are the problems we're trying to leave behind, what are the actions we're taking to get to our goals, and what evidence are we collecting in order to get there."
[12:45]

The framework emphasizes:

• Problem Identification: Clearly defining and prioritizing issues that hinder progress.
• Action Planning: Developing targeted actions to address these problems.
• Evidence Collection: Gathering metrics to track improvements and validate solutions.

Michael adds that the framework acts as a "translator," enabling teams to present their work in the language that leadership understands, thereby fostering better alignment and support.

"Leadership just has to look at it and they're like, okay, yeah, you're good, or we need to change."
[14:11]

Actionable Tips to Escape the Doom Loop

Towards the end of the episode, Pete shares practical advice for listeners facing Agile stagnation:

1. Prioritize Problems:

   • Focus on solving one significant issue at a time to ensure measurable progress.

   "Think about what problem do you want to see go away and don't introduce anything unless it's going to directly affect that problem."
   [19:38]

2. Align with Leadership Priorities:

   • Ensure that the problems you address are ones that leadership cares about to garner necessary support.

3. Build Trust Through Small Wins:

   • Start with achievable goals to build credibility and trust within the team.

   "Pick one and keep it small... it's going to likely just fall apart and go in the background and be forgotten."
   [24:26]

Michael emphasizes the importance of storytelling and future-oriented thinking to inspire and motivate teams:

"Have good stories to give... bring those stories to let them know that you've seen things like this before."
[22:34]

Conclusion and Call to Action

The episode wraps up with Jasko highlighting the ongoing Global Agile Summit, encouraging listeners to attend for deeper insights and networking opportunities. Pete and Michael provide their contact information, inviting listeners to connect on LinkedIn and explore more of their work.

Key Takeaways

• Agile Doom Loop: A state of stagnation where Agile practices fail to drive meaningful progress due to lack of leadership support and continuous unproductive cycles.
• PAGES Framework: A strategic tool to bridge communication gaps between Agile teams and leadership by focusing on problem identification, action planning, and evidence collection.
• Actionable Strategies: Prioritize and align problem-solving efforts with leadership's priorities, start with small wins to build trust, and utilize storytelling to motivate and inspire teams.

Notable Quotes

• Michael Dougherty:

  "When change doesn't happen and there is nothing that seems to go anywhere, that's when you know you're in that doom loop."
  [03:16]

• Pete Oliver-Krueger:

  "Leadership comes in and says not good enough... they can't do anything about these impediments."
  [05:00]

• Pete Oliver-Krueger:

  "Think about what problem do you want to see go away and don't introduce anything unless it's going to directly affect that problem."
  [19:38]

• Michael Dougherty:

  "Have good stories to give... bring those stories to let them know that you've seen things like this before."
  [22:34]

Further Resources

• Book: Shift from Product to People by Pete Oliver-Krueger and Michael Dougherty
• Contact:
  • Michael Dougherty: Find him as "Agile Mike Dougherty" on LinkedIn.
  • Pete Oliver-Krueger: Search for "Pete Oliver Kruger" on LinkedIn or visit shiftingpeople.com.
• Global Agile Summit: Visit globalagilesummit.com for details on the event in Tallinn, Estonia.

This episode provides invaluable insights for Agile practitioners seeking to overcome stagnation and foster a more dynamic, responsive Agile environment. By implementing the PAGES framework and focusing on strategic problem-solving, teams can break free from the Doom Loop and achieve sustained improvement and success.