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Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
BONUS Maria Chec Explores the Divide Between Agile Leaders and Practitioners
00:40:14
BONUS: Maria Chec Explores the Divide Between Agile Leaders and Practitioners In this BONUS episode, we explore Agile leadership with Maria Chec, author and host of Agile State of Mind. . We explore the roots of this divide, discuss practical...
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- [00:07]
Vasco
Have you ever wondered what it really.
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Unknown Host
Takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at.
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Vasco
The end of this episode.
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Unknown Host
So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon.
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Vasco
Hello everybody. Welcome to one more bonus episode and thank you for being here with us. We have a special guest, a guest who also has her own podcast and YouTube channel, Maria Scheck. Hey Maria, welcome to the show.
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Maria Scheck
Hey Vasco, I'm glad to be here. Lovely to meet you online today.
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Vasco
Absolutely. And I have seen you before in one of the summits we organized a while back, but at that time we didn't talk because somebody else was interviewing you. So I'm really happy to get to talk to you because I'm really impressed and appreciative of the work that you have been doing for our community. So let me tell you a little bit about Maria. She's a seasoned Agile leader, a pro Kanban trainer, and the creator of the Agile State of Mind. You definitely want to check that out. So check out the link in the show notes. She has over a decade of experience and specializes in transforming teams with safe OKRs and process optimization, achieving remarkable productivity gains. Maria's mission is empowering teams to thrive through collaboration and adaptability, which are key aspects of agility. Of course. She also has an amazing substack. You also want to check that out. The link is also in the show notes and in that substack she talked about Miros or Miros, I don't know how to pronounce that name correctly. Miros Agile Survey where she highlights divide she noticed in that survey or in the results of that survey. I won't spoil the suspense here. Maria can tell us immediately. So tell us a little bit more about what you saw in that survey and what was that divide that you referred to in your article.
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Maria Scheck
Sure, yeah. I stumbled upon the survey the end of last year, and I saw that they actually surveyed 1200 agile practitioners, and not only practitioners, practitioners and leaders. And the interesting thing that resonated with me was that the responses were divided and we could see what agile leaders think and what agile practitioners think about the same topics and questions. And the divide was just really big. It was amazing to see how, for example, you ask if agile is living up to its original values, and you would get totally different responses from practitioners, the people that live and work in the companies, and different responses from leaders. So, for example, just to give a short example, like processes and tools overshadow individuals in their organization. And the practitioners would say 69%, yes, they overshadow. So it's actually the opposite of agile. Right? It's what agile was, the counter response to that problem. And 43 leaders think so only. So it's really a big difference. And the same about documentation is more important than delivering the final product. And 58% of practitioners say yes, and only 39% of leaders. And then those are just a couple of examples. And what mostly resonated with me were the responses about psychological safety, the trust that leaders put in the teams, and how the practitioners really live it. And that was such a big divide that I could. I directly started writing an article about it because that's also what I see a lot in the companies I work with.
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Vasco
Well, yeah, although I do find it tempting to kind of start imagining or even speculating as to why that might be there. I think from an empirical perspective, it suits us to be curious about why it is there. But by looking at the data. So did the survey highlight any other data points, Maria, that would help you understand what are maybe some of the different perspectives. Leaders and practitioners have some other difference other than just that evaluation. Was there like any hint as to what is the reality as seen from those two different sides?
- [05:46]
Maria Scheck
I think mostly what they highlighted was that, you know, they focused a lot on the agile practices and frameworks. And that was. And usually. And when my thinking about it is, if you look at. And I say it's like you blame kind of the framework. So, you know, you have this opinion about the framework, but who usually. And then I thought about my company, like in my companies I worked with, who is enforcing those frameworks? It's not agile coming. Like there's no agile ghost coming and saying you do this. It's usually the leaders. So that's why I really think that what I see from my experience is when we see people saying frameworks are too complex, too Rigid. That was in the survey. Like, the practitioners feel pressured to comply with agile practices and they don't seem to add value. And then that you can see that the company prioritizes processes over achieving really the goals and team collaboration. And then you think this is such a divide that you see usually because some people just like, oh, I heard about this safe thing, let's do it, let's implement safe. So you take somebody from outside sometimes, sometimes from inside, they come, they do this. The leadership is happy because they achieved something new, but then the people that really live it and have to work, they see the biggest problems. And when you have those people, really, sometimes I even see that. That's why I went farther and talked about to psychological safety and trust. Can I really admit that something that the leadership made me do is not working for me? Will I be the only one admitting it? And then you go into, like, you stop talking about the processes and you start talking about the psychological safety, the collaboration between the leadership and the people. And then you see like there is something going on here.
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Vasco
Actually, that's a very good point. So two aspects. One, frameworks are usually brought by leadership, but it is the people doing the work, the practitioners, who actually make them happen in practice. I'm sure you've heard this, I've heard this often that, hey, we have too many meetings, this SCRUM thing, there's too many meetings, or this save thing is too heavy or, or whatever the reason is. And one of the things that came to mind was, okay, maybe the disconnect is not that the framework is right or wrong, because in the end, no framework is always 100% right, but rather that the framework is being implemented without input, without the participation, and without the continuous improvement mindset from the practitioners. Could that be. Is that what you see in the people you talk to in the clients you work with?
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Maria Scheck
Definitely. You frame it really well. So, yeah, what I see is that both things that you say, first of all, it is being done without real engagement from the bottom up. And sometimes even if you read team topologies and you consider how, you know the Conway law, that in the end we, the patterns that we have reflect on, on the systems that we build and the other way around. And you see that sometimes something that in the leadership mind, it makes total sense. But when you look at how teams collaborate because they work on the same systems, it doesn't make sense for them because that's not the way they need to collaborate and they build the systems. So that's on one thing, on one hand. And on the other hand is what you said as well, we don't do this feedback loops because people also, you know, people are getting very tired of this big transformations and corporate changes and making new structures. So I also see sometimes that the leadership does this big change. People are already tired of another change, so they are a bit afraid to even do the feedback loop. In retrospect, on like, does it really work? Because they are like, okay, so you said you are done with the change, so we will stop changing, let's just do what we do. And then it's and people. And then you are stuck. And then there are those people that talk loudly about how they like the change and then who will. You really need a lot of courage and a lot of psychological safety to be able to go and say, well, I know that some people like this, but I really don't think this works for us. And this is very difficult for people to do. So that's why I thought about this as like, Agile here is not really responsible for your ugly framework. You are and you should be the one taking the responsibility for it.
- [11:19]
Vasco
So I agree with that. And also I would add that all frameworks will be ugly. I mean, some will be useful, but they all will be ugly because they can't apply in 100% of the situations. And I remember way back when when we started with Agile adoption and there wasn't a clear winner in terms of the framework wars, if you will. There was a lot of responsibility put on people to implement Agile in their organization. Sure, you had Scrum, but hey, Scrum is a one team thing. If you have two teams, you already have to bring in your ability to innovate and think through how do we coordinate multiple team work.
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Unknown Guest
Right.
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Vasco
And then of course Les and Nexus and SAFE came along and kind of gave an answer to that, a much needed answer, by the way. We don't all need to agree on the exact answer, but there was a need for an answer there. And one of the things that I worry about, and I don't know if the survey revealed anything about this, one of the things that I worry about is this growing mindset, especially in leadership. The ones buying the transformation, they're not necessarily doing it, but they're buying it. And I fear that we get into this idea that you can just buy the framework from the outside and install it in the organization kind of this install the framework mindset. And that's not how people work.
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Unknown Guest
Right?
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Vasco
Like, I mean it's right there in the manifesto. We are learning and Sharing the things we're learning about how to deliver software in better ways. I wonder if there's anything in the survey and something you can share from your experience regarding that. How to combat, how to overcome this idea that you can just install a framework.
- [12:58]
Maria Scheck
The survey doesn't mention that directly but they really, they just show the problems people have. So for example that it's too rigid, it's too complex. We have to adjust too much to the framework post to adjust apply the framework to our needs. So that is as a problem. But yeah, I agree that you know we kind of have still this I call it magical thinking of oh, you know, I will just buy this off the shelf solution and it will solve all my problems because that other company we, we did it in that other company. So we will just implement it in this company as well. Not irrelevant of the context. And, and we, and you know, it's the same like when you think about estimations is like my favorite, favorite example. Like we keep on giving those estimations, they keep on being wrong and we keep on thinking okay, the next time we start this project we probably just highlight more risks and this way we will have all the estimations perfect right? And we will just keep on me finding the risk like who we already know that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different result makes us a bit stronger stupid. And, and, and we keep on doing that. And I think that's the same thing about the frameworks. I don't say they are bad. I think we don't have to reinvent the wheel every time we need to scale up or scale down a company or create a new product because you know, things happen and we constantly change but we just need to make it, tailor made it like customize it to our needs. Maybe we don't need the whole thing. Maybe we just need the PI planning from save. Or maybe you just need the roles because the roles are really like. I really like for example the idea of the rte, how it's implemented later. It's a problem but I really believe in those guru roles that can help you a lot and I'm talking a lot about this recently. It's. I have this bias for collaboration. I think we can do it better. I think those glue rows, however you call them, you can be an RTE release trained engineer or an agile coach or a tpm, a technical project manager, whatever you call them. But if you have this person that can help you and really another part in me when I have this disagreement is we, when you look at the Nature, it's changing constantly. Nothing stays the same. But somehow we think that in our companies we have to have everything the same forever. It's just we are so afraid of change. And change should be just everyday life. Right. It changes because we have new people, we have different cultures, we have different people coming together to work. So I think I totally went off track from your question, but I think it's just so much so important to have this in mind.
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Vasco
Yeah. So coming back to some of the things that you said from the survey. The framework is too rigid, the framework is too complex. We have to change too much to adapt to the framework instead of adapting the framework to us. And that kind of hints, especially because of that divide that you mentioned in the article between the leaders and the practitioner, that kind of hints that we really need to bring those together.
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Unknown Guest
Right.
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Vasco
Like, you know, practitioners and leaders need to talk more about how they are implementing those frameworks and perhaps customize or change or whatever that might be. And I really loved your suggestion of the Gemba Walks.
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Unknown Guest
Right.
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Vasco
Like one of the things you say in the article is, hey, let's bring the leaders to the place where the work gets done. That's the original meaning of Gemba Walks, to reconnect with that process. What are some actionable steps you think that that could work to get that interaction, to get that connection going between leaders and practitioners again?
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Maria Scheck
Yeah, exactly. I really believe, you know, when you read, I really appreciate the book from Jurgen Apollo, management 3.0 and management for Happiness. There are so many tools for the, for the management, for the leaders to use. And one of them, which is not actually his, it's, it's from Lean and Toyota, is the Gemba walk and being where the value is created. And I think that's that, that's for me the fundamental step, like I can't imagine being a leader and not having any clue who are the people that work for me, how they are organized, are they happy, are they seeing some meaning in the work they do? Do they consider their work has any impact? So those are the. And then, you know, this directly tell takes me to the project Aristotle that Google made and they talk about they, you know, who has more teams than Google. So they did this huge survey on that and it really shows that trust and psychological safety are very important. And how do you do that? Like, you need to show your faith. People need to know you. And I love it when all the managers tell that their door is always open, but then they close it and they are somewhere else. And you Never know even where the door is that is open. I can't find the door. Not to mention that if it's open or not. So it's. For me, this is the fundamental thing, be there and know what's going on. And the second one is, I also notice sometimes we just lack a bigger mission, some meaning, you know, like, why are we even doing this? What change does it bring to the world? Why should I care about what I do right? And this is also the, the work and the responsibility of the leadership to tell us we have some goals, we have some mission shared. I remember when I joined my taxi, which now is called FreeNow, it's a taxi hailing, ride hailing app in Europe. And the CEO of that time, he shared this vision of, in the end, it's about having the, that you constantly use a car. You don't just park your car and have it sit for eight hours when you work. It took you to work, but then it goes on and keeps on riding. So you don't have. So you can actually like change the cities and not have so many parking lots because you don't need them because the cars are constantly being used and you have only then the number of cars you need. That was inspiring. I wanted to work for a taxi app. Like, who would care about a taxi app? But when you tell me about the future that we want to be part of, you totally change the way I look at my work. And I feel like I'm building something for the future. And this is also the responsibility of the leadership. And I would love to see more of that inspiration and feeling of belonging that I belong to something that creates a better world in the end. Right? And we can do it with everything.
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Vasco
Yes, yes we can. And talking about creating a better world, one of the things that I guess we could say Agile has brought about this is the vision of a potentially better way of developing software first and maybe even later doing any kind of creative or knowledge work. And one of the surprising events, now we're moving off the survey, but one of the surprising events that happened in the end of 2024 was the merger between PMI and the Agile Alliance. Now, PMI does a lot of great things, right, like there's nothing wrong with what they are doing, but when you think about what Agile was created to do and what it stands for, I find it very surprising that PMI would find that it's important for them to acquire or merge with the Agile Alliance. And I find it quite shocking frankly to think that the Agile Alliance Management or leadership would even agree to that because the missions they have in the world are quite different.
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Unknown Guest
Right.
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Vasco
Like the PMI maybe is the mission of making project management the most common work coordination and execution role out there in the world. I mean, it's right there in the name, right? Project Management Institute. While Agile is about finding better ways, at least that's what is written in the manifesto, finding better ways to work, including not using project management. So I'm interested to hear your thoughts, Maria, because you're also a thought leader and someone who has a voice and a lot of influence in the community. And I think we as a community need to learn and we learn by looking at what is happening and reflecting on it.
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Unknown Guest
Right.
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Vasco
What are your thoughts about this merger between the PMI and Agile Alliance?
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Maria Scheck
Yeah, so it can cause different feelings, I imagine, because you think precisely what you said. It's like a circle. We started with project management, we thought we found better ways, and now we are closing the circle and we are saying, well, back to what we had. But I usually think about, you know, the glasses half full and there is a bright side of life. And I'm thinking, does it mean that PMI really saw that Agile is a way to go and they need to. That makes sense to adapt this mindset. In the end, Agile is a mindset, it's not a framework. Right. That's what we usually forget. And then also on the Agile side, we are in a crisis. We know that Agile is dead, it's the end of Scrum and so on, and we read about it every day and maybe they thought, why not partner and make what is the most common better? So I think, as I said, I look at it with anticipation and hopefulness, but it's for all of us to think about it and see what can we do to make this work. I think sometimes we think things are happening and they are passing us by, but we, as the Agile leaders, we are participating in this change. We are, you know, party there like we, we are the, the players and we can shape the future. So for me, that is really exciting. And I'm thinking about this because I always say I have bias for collaboration and I really love to add those collaboration pieces to, to the work of even the most waterfall place. So even if your processes are very rigid and you think in the project way and you have all that language that we spoke briefly before of very rigidness, and there's a process and the human is not being part of it, you can start adding those collaboration, you can add those Glue rolls that will help people break the silos and foster better connections. And I think that's how we should look at it and think, okay, the war is over. Which is a very good way to put it, right? Oh, suddenly we don't have to hate on projects, we can just embrace it and help them introduce the mental mindset. So I think it's all for us to decide what we want to do with it.
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Vasco
That's a very good perspective because it is after all, really up to us how we see how things are happening. When I think about it, I look to agile leaders like yourself and others and I'm expecting guidance, direction, ideas, or even just questions that help us as a community reflect and going forward, and specifically when it comes to project management as the, let's call it management strategy or management software, if you will, the operating system of how we deliver software, I find there are incredibly large gaps. Now, I am not as hopeful as you are, but I'm standing back and waiting to see how the PMI adapts to the fact that Agile is really the, the, I would say, dominant perspective in software development at the moment. And that of course no doubt creates some threats for the business that the PMI is part of and has helped to create. And I'm wondering if we can find something within that, let's call it shared understanding between the PMI and the Agile alliance, if we can find something that can be better.
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Unknown Guest
Right?
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Vasco
Like as you said, let's be hopeful that it is possible. But I also want to get us as a community to reflect on, okay, but what have we learned that we now need to start implementing or putting into practice, whether it is through writing books or talking at conferences or podcast episodes like this one. And when I look at the questions that come to my mind, they are more in the domain of, okay, so we already know Conway's Law is really important. Project management does not address Conway's Law. The opposite. It totally ignores it because it's a temporary endeavor. Conway's Law talks about a long term, unavoidable dynamic in organizations. Project management can be used to do change projects, but project management does not have any opinion on what changes should be implemented.
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Unknown Guest
Right?
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Vasco
Agile does. Agile has very clear opinions on what changes should be implemented, for example, focusing on collaboration, just like you like to focus on Maria. So I am a bit skeptic. I'm hopeful, but cautiously hopeful on that progress because I think that we, as a community, as a software development and agile community, we really need to take ownership of the work that we do because it is so important for our societies.
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Unknown Guest
Right?
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Vasco
Like, I mean, in many countries in Europe right now, there are hugely expensive software projects, whether it is in healthcare or taxation or whatever it is, that are taking a lot of funds away from building schools, hiring nurses, building hospitals and so on. So I think it is also, for me, it's also kind of an important point in history that is challenging us as a wider software community to really take ownership of what software development should look like in the future so that we can still continue to build our societies further and better without being so dependent on incredibly ineffective approaches like we have seen in the past in software projects.
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Maria Scheck
That's so interesting and thank you for inspiring. I think what I said about that mission and how we consider we belong and we have meaning in what we do and see that our work has impact. That's precisely what you said. Why don't we, why don't we reduce waste in what we do for like governmental, governmental companies, right? Enterprises that we need the software too, for the healthcare and for the banks and for everything that we do. And then how do we make sure that we don't spend so much money and effort in vain because we made a huge mistake and we only realized a year after we invested so much money as opposed to doing iterative deliveries and make sure that we can actually iterate over what we do? So I agree. But there is one thing I miss in our conversation, and that's the AI. And especially given that I just woke up today and learned that Senior President Trump has given 500 billions to the three companies to work on AI. So artificial intelligence is a thing. And I think that's also partially why this merger happened now of BMI and Digital alliance, not any other moment, because we have a third player and that's for us also to shape and that's a huge unknown. So this is also for us to think about. Really Agile approach could be so much better in this because we need to experiment. We have no clue what that means for us in the future. Like, how will our life be in two years? It's not now talking about like we thought right before. It's like, oh, in 10 years, in 20 years, where do you see yourself in 20 years? Like, I don't know now I have no clue if we would be using anything from what we use today. In two years there might be some new, new softwares. And like now we. Everybody uses ChatGPT already. You know, I talk to anyone from different industries because usually for us it's also the Fact that in tech we are usually in an avant garde to use all the new techy cool gadgets. This has been used across the industries.
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Vasco
So yeah, one could even argue that it's being used more outside software development because we're all afraid it will take our jobs away.
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Maria Scheck
It can be true. And you know, and we have also our ethical approach. Like we are very aware that we shouldn't put too much like private personal data into it and people from outside, you know, we don't even realize what it can have. You know, I was thinking recently because we are doing so much of this cybersecurity and you know, phishing, all the threads that come with technology, but there are people who just live their life and have no clue about that and then they can be targeted in so many ways because they put, you know, oh, I'll put my CV with all, everything that I have, my contact, my telephone, my social media profiles and they just put it directly there without thinking about it. So I think we, yeah, this, this is a big, big revolution. And this is also something that for me to, is in the Agile. We, we should start talking about it, how we use it, how we take advantage of it, how we use it as an assistant, as a alter ego or whatever you want to use it. But it's time for us to share how we use it as opposed to what you say like, oh I will not use it or I will just like I will pretend I never use it. I just got smarter overnight and my English got so much better in writing. That's just, you know, my voice changed magically. Exactly. So I think that is, maybe that's how we are making this alliance of Agile alliance and BMI to also face this new reality.
- [33:35]
Vasco
Well, fingers crossed. I hope the people at the top of that organization today are thinking about the same questions and how to keep the spirit that Agile brought to industry. Finding better ways by doing it and sharing how we do it so that others may learn as well. Maria, we're getting close to the end, but before you go, if listeners want to dive deeper into this topic, the MiroAgile survey and potential consequences, but also the work that you do, where should they go?
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Maria Scheck
So you can find me on LinkedIn mariacheck and it's easy to find. I have this, I'm from Poland, but my last name is not so much Polish that people you know, usually say. It's, it looks like, like your password to wi Fi. It's not my, my last name is very easy. So LinkedIn you can find me. Also on Soupstack there's also Maria Check and you can see me on YouTube. Agile State of Mind really appreciate the view shape and also the comments and the conversation because in the end we are here, at least I'm here to have conversations to improve the ways of working to solve problems that we see and not just implement, as you said before, like a framework, because it's there and we have to do it. So I'm very happy to continue the conversation.
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Vasco
Absolutely. Everybody check those out. The links will be in the show notes of course, and why not ask a few follow up questions from Maria. Maria, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.
- [35:21]
Maria Scheck
Thank you for having me.
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Unknown Host
Hey friend, thank you for staying here.
- [35:27]
Vasco
Is all you need to know about.
- [35:29]
Unknown Host
The Global Agile Summit if you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from Agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged. Especially when conversations revolve around the same.
- [35:50]
Vasco
Old frameworks, the same old buzzwords and theories.
- [35:53]
Unknown Host
We don't feel that energy anymore.
- [35:55]
Vasco
Well, the Global Agile Summit is a.
- [35:58]
Unknown Host
Different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen In Tallinn, Estonia, May 18th. That's the workshop day. Then 19th and 20th, the conference day.
- [36:21]
Vasco
And Tallinn, Estonia is one of the.
- [36:23]
Unknown Host
Most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leaders in software and agile. For example, Clean Quentin Keith, the person.
- [36:52]
Vasco
Who wrote literally wrote the book on.
- [36:55]
Unknown Host
Game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Adsic, who's taking.
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Vasco
An unconventional look at at product growth.
- [37:19]
Unknown Host
With his Lizard Optimization keynote. Other speakers include, for example, Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with the contract negotiation? How Agile is that, but there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on for example AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms, and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile Business track where we will talk about, for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract.
- [38:34]
Vasco
Literally.
- [38:35]
Unknown Host
I mean, I already told you about Svendeet's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile Business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile Product for product managers, product owners and innovators and Agile Developer for the builders making Agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who just like you, want to grow, want to share and want to learn by challenging the ideas that don't work anymore at the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the free full program and grab your ticket now@globalagilesummit.com I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May.
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Vasco
I'll see you there.