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BONUS NVC, Walking Towards Conflict with Love | Maria Arpa and Bob Marshall
00:52:08
BONUS: NVC, Walking Towards Conflict with Love With Maria Arpa and Bob Marshall In this BONUS episode, we explore , a powerful tool that has changed how many people work and relate to family, friends, and colleagues. , and who studied directly under...
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- [00:07]
Host
Have you ever wondered what it really takes to make Agile work well? At the Global Agile Summit, we're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action. Whether you're a leader, a product innovator, a developer, you'll hear practical insights from those who've done it. They'll be telling their own stories from the stage. I'll tell you more about this at the end of this episode. So stay back and listen to the full detailed description of what we have in store for you at the Global Agile Summit. But if you can't wait, you can go right now to globalagilesummit.com and check out our full schedule for now onto the episode. But I'll see you at the end of this episode with more details on the Global Agile Summit. Talk to you soon.
- [01:04]
Interviewer
Hello everybody. Welcome to a very special bonus episode. We have with us two guests. First, Maria Arpa, which will or who will be talking to us about her own work with nonviolent communication and tools that she herself has developed over the years related to the topic of nonviolent communication. And Maria, welcome to the show.
- [01:30]
Maria Arpa
Hello. How amazing to be back with you. It was such a good conversation last time, so thank you.
- [01:37]
Interviewer
Absolutely. It was definitely a pleasure and we're happy to have you back. And joining me for this interview is also an old friend. I haven't talked with Bob for a long time. Bob is an NVC advocate and practitioner and also publishes an NVC related. Well, not just nvc, but he publishes a lot about NVC in his blog. The link is in the show notes. Welcome, Bob.
- [02:03]
Bob
Hi there. Happy to be talking with you again after such a long time.
- [02:07]
Interviewer
Absolutely. So Maria, let's do the intro bit to start us off. I would love to start by asking you how would you like to introduce yourself and the work that you do to our audience in the context of this conversation?
- [02:25]
Maria Arpa
Oh, that's really difficult because, you know, every time I start to write down, you know, a title, you know, and a facilitator media, a trainer, you know. And recently I had some business cards printed and I started writing these things, I thought, oh, this is terrible, this sounds really awful. So in the end I just wrote my name and underneath I wrote Walking towards conflict with love.
- [02:52]
Interviewer
Oh wow, that's such an amazing byline. Also very much in context of the conversation we're having today. So definitely looking forward to explore that phrase with you in this episode. How about you, Bob? How would you introduce yourself to Our audience.
- [03:12]
Bob
Well, I'm a bit more prosaic these days. I just simply describe myself as an organizational psychotherapist.
- [03:20]
Interviewer
And when we were prepping, you talked about the concept of shared consciousness. Was that the term you used?
- [03:26]
Bob
Yeah, I said collective consciousness or collective psyche. I work with the collective psyche of organizations.
- [03:35]
Interviewer
That's such a wonderful concept when you think about it in the context of nonviolent communication. I'm sure we will explore that because in this episode we're exploring nvc. So nonviolent communication, that's the term we will probably be using a lot. NVC and its applications. So, Maria, let's start with you. For the listeners who might be new to nonviolent communication, what is NVC really about and why does it matter?
- [04:03]
Maria Arpa
So let's start by saying that NVC nonviolent communication is a communications tool, a practice. So it has a practical application and a spiritual application in communicating being in community with ourself and others. And it is the work of Dr. Marshall Rosenberg. And Marshall Rosenberg studied under Carl Rogers, who is the author or designer of the Person Centered Therapy model. And what I believe is that Marshall understood the paradigm shift that we need to make that takes us to a different realm. That's very hard for us when all we know is the mainstream and what I call domination culture way of system of being in the world.
- [05:03]
Interviewer
Can you open that up a little bit more? Like what do you mean by domination culture? And why do you think it is in contrast with nvc?
- [05:14]
Maria Arpa
So one way or another, I mean, clearly you could talk to lots of conspiracy theorists who would say it's deliberate. And then other people would say it's just come about. But there is a mainstream way that we are together in the west mostly, but all over the world I see examples of it that's based on hierarchy, punishment, order and obedience to rules. I mean, there's lots more I could say. And on a continuum of domination culture, at one end, when we look at the. The. The real kind of what's the words I'm looking for the outcomes of domination culture, you'll end up with a few people who become very rich and have a lot of power and a lot of people who become powerless. And at the worst end of it, we can see the devastation of slavery and colonization. And then as you go along that continuum, even the most privileged people can be punished by domination culture because at any time they could be excluded or cancelled or vilified. So we're all wounded from domination culture. It's just the degree to which our privilege or the things that we're exposed to can create cushions.
- [06:57]
Interviewer
One of the things that is really interesting about the nonviolent communication as I understand it, and I'm not an expert, Right. I'm a student and let's call it a beginner practitioner. Even though I have started many years ago, I think there's still a lot to learn. When you think about nonviolent communication, what is that perspective that it offers that helps us to first understand that there is this domination culture and then second to actually step out of it in a way that becomes productive and let's contextualize this becomes productive in our day to day interactions with the people that we interact with. Let's focus on that type of context for now.
- [07:42]
Maria Arpa
Yeah. So within the domination culture society, often the things that we're doing around mental health, around our education systems are all designed to help people to be compliant, to become nice dead people doing what they're told, managing their behaviour so as to avoid shame, humiliation or punishment. And often the motivation within a domination culture system is fear. Guilt or shame is what motivates us to behave in a non violent communication system which non violent communication is a tool. Right. That comes from the philosophy of non violence. So the starting point is a different philosophy and what that says, I mean there are some really easy ways, never give your power away to another human being to tell you whether you are a good or bad person. You know, that's, that's the number one thing. Secondly, that we want people to be independent, rational thinkers able to internally motivate themselves, to make choices from our own internal inner compass in which we believe that all people have the potential to manifest love.
- [09:19]
Interviewer
So I'm sure that. Okay, so I should introduce that. Bob, you talked about this collective consciousness and you call yourself an organizational psychotherapist.
- [09:32]
Bob
That's correct. Yes, that's what I say.
- [09:35]
Interviewer
So I'm sure you have a perspective on what Maria just shared, specifically on this contrast, if we could call it from the philosophy behind nonviolent communication and the domination culture as Maria calls it. How do you see it in your work?
- [09:53]
Bob
Yes. Well, even though MVC has lots of applications outside the world of work, particularly, you know, in relationships within the family and friends and local communities. I major in my use of NBC in the workplace and in the conversations I have with people in offices, or not so much in offices these days. But in any case, I guess the domination culture that Maria was talking about, it's exemplified by command and control, which is the manifestation of theory Y Theory X, which is people have to be beaten with sticks to get any work out of them.
- [10:43]
Host
Should I call emergency services?
- [10:47]
Bob
Whereas NVC is much more theory Y friendly, which is people work because they enjoy working.
- [11:01]
Interviewer
So what you're trying to relate, if I understand you correctly, is that there's two contrasting perspectives that are similar to what Maria just described. But you see them at work. You use the theory X and theory Y. We'll put a link to that in the show notes as well. But specifically in your practice of nvc, how have you seen that as a practical tool for you within the context of work? And then we can explore that, because I think Maria also has some great contribution to bring us about how this can be applied at work. But in your work, Bob, how do you see that being helpful in the work that you do with this collective consciousness that our organizations.
- [11:45]
Bob
Well, it kind of stretches again across the spectrum. One end of the spectrum being NVC is a great tool for helping people relate to each other better, particularly in the context of the discussions, the group discussions that we have in organizational psychotherapy. I try and model, as any therapist would, interactions based on nvc, amongst other things. Rogers is also a hero of mine and more on a more theoretical basis. I'd be very interested actually to hear what Maria has to say about NVC and the role of needs in nvc. Because one of the kind of core focus of my work with an organization, whichever organization might be at the time, is to help them understand what they need as an organization and where they're at with getting those needs met. Most of the time they're very unaware of what they need collectively. And so I help them express themselves and realize, come to understand what their needs are. And then that's kind of a starting place to kick off the therapy in more general sense.
- [13:09]
Interviewer
Maria, what are your thoughts on this concept of applying NVC and NVC's ideas not only in a conversation or relationship, but also towards organizations as collective entities, as Bob calls it.
- [13:26]
Maria Arpa
Yeah, thank you. So, yeah, so sort of picking up on Bob's talk about needs, you know, so one part of Marshall's model is the use of needs based theory. Now, Marshall Rosenberg is not the owner of needs based theory. I mean, you could do a degree on it. You could write a thesis on needs based theory. And people may be familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, or Manfred Max Neef, who was the Chilean economist. There are lots of people who've referred to needs based theory and, you know, manipulated it to fit whatever they're doing. But in nvc, Marshall's proposition is that we have universal needs. So at the very basic level, the need for air, the need for food, rest, you know, know very basic physical needs, moving up to things like creativity, adventure, stimulation, variety, wholeness, and then other needs around sort of community needs like recognition and community and communication and honesty and fairness and equality. So there are an abundance of needs. And what we try to distinguish is the need and the strategy I'm using to meet the need. And so as a really simple example, you have a need for air, I have a need for air. Bob, you have a need for air. We all have a need for air and we only have one strategy, to breathe. Breathing is the only strategy that we have. So we don't have many arguments over breathing. Think. Do you have any arguments do you have in a week over breathing? Very few. None.
- [15:34]
Interviewer
Except you have a teenager who complains about you breathing too loudly. But that's perhaps another conversation.
- [15:40]
Maria Arpa
Ah, but that's not about, that's still not about the strategy. They're not denying you the strategy to breathe. That's nuanced. However, if I take a need for fairness or respect, how many ways are there to meet that need? And what if you believe you're meeting your need for fairness using whatever strategy you're using? And I believe that that is impacting on my need for respect. We have a collision in strategies. And so the only argument we can ever be having is over strategies. And once I've understood that at a heart level, at an empathic level, at a soul level, it makes navigation of how we want to move forward much easier because we understand the key principles of what we're arguing over. I am never going to tell you that you should not have your need for respect met or your need for fairness, because I too have that need. And that's how we can empathize with each other. But we can have really high quality conversations about the strategies we're choosing and how that might impact on other needs for yourself and the people around you.
- [17:10]
Interviewer
So when you mentioned this differentiation of the need from the strategy, I immediately relate that to if we don't agree on the goal. So in this case that would be the need. All we can do is argue about the strategy on how to reach that goal because we're kind of stuck in the details, the mechanics of applying certain things get to what we ultimately want to reach. If I understand you correctly, one of the things you're asking us to consider when for example, there's either a latent or obvious conflict in a meeting would be to take a pause, perhaps, and try to understand what are we trying to achieve and relate only what we are trying to achieve, not the strategy. And maybe through that we can elicit empathy and then maybe the other person can do the same. And then we can then start talking productively about what might be different possible strategies to get that achieved. Right. Is that perhaps one way to tackle this?
- [18:13]
Maria Arpa
Yes, that's one way. Definitely. One way to tackle it is don't try to strategize until you understand all the needs on the table and that we can have empathy for each other's needs. Because if you look at, if I go into organizations, you know, the needs for someone who is, you know, on the factory floor are going to be very different from the needs of someone sort of further up the food chain in the organization or even across that. You know, some people are going to work and the. The way they lead their life or their unhealed wounds or their traumas or whatever it is, means that they constantly live in survival mode, even when they have more than they need. So they're coming to work to meet needs to pay the mortgage for security and safety and putting food on the table. And that's very different to somebody who comes to work to meet needs for accomplishment and recognition and variety and stimulation. And so we have to be able to see each other in this way because the kinds of conversations we're going to have are going to differ. I'm going to see the world very differently to you. Different things are at stake for me.
- [19:44]
Interviewer
So I'm curious about. Of course you've studied a lot of these topics, not just nvc, but many other topics related to psychology. You've created your own dialogue roadmap, which we link in the show notes. But I'm interested in your origin story. Maria, how did you come to know about nvc? How did you come to meet Marshall Rosenberg? What attracted you as a person to this way of seeing the world?
- [20:16]
Maria Arpa
So, I mean, it's a very interesting and sort of almost amusing story looking back at it, because my son was at primary school. I was busy running my advertising agency. You know, I had big high heels and a big brick mobile phone and a handbag, you know, and I was stomping around the place and, you know, having escaped poverty, of course. And I used to go stand in the playground to pick my son up from school. And there was the father of my son's friend, and he would talk to me about stuff that was completely over My, I mean, completely over my head. And to be honest, I was just humoring the conversation. And then one day he said, oh, and this person I've been telling you about is coming to London and you know, you really ought to come and see him and you can buy a ticket. And I arrogantly bought a ticket with no intention of ever going. And somehow on the morning of the event, I don't know what it was, but I just went. It was a one day Marshall Rosenberg in East London giving a talk. And I was completely and utterly captivated by. You know, I've always been, I've always been out there and I've always challenged the system in ways I've always got myself in trouble. You know, I've always had lots of shame around being sort of a big mouth, you know, lots, you know, and suddenly this man in a day answered all the questions I'd never been able to get answered through therapy, through, you know, other volunteering work that I was doing, through my, the qualifications I got in counseling. None of those questions were ever answered. And suddenly this man asked questions. Anyway, I came home and I grabbed my children and I sat them down and I said, my parenting's been all wrong. You know, they're like seven or, you know, six and eight or something like that. My parenting's been all wrong and I've just, you know, seen the light and you know, and all the rest of it. And they looked at me as if I was completely mental and, and I think, you know, I'm never gonna like, tell you off again. And I just completely got this wrong. And, and, and then it took me about five years from that moment to really integrate this stuff. And then in 2005, Marshall was running what he called the special session. And this was for people interested in social change who either had roles in which they had influence or were already involved in social change, to come out to Switzerland for 15 days and live the process. And we had 22 people. No, sorry, we had 50 something people from 22 countries gather in a mountain lodge in Switzerland with only a cable car from us to the village. That ended at 4pm and there we were, stuck together for 15 days, living this process. And to say it was revolutionary for me was, you know, would be an understatement. I went in 15 days from rejecting, resisting, you know, desperate to want this stuff, every being in my body, not wanting to be here, couldn't do that level of intimacy with people. And in 15 days at the other side, understanding that this was it. And so I Asked Marshall Rosenberg a question. I said, who are the people that are going to take this forward? Like. Like, you know, he's. He was already in his 70s then, or approaching 70s. Who. Who's going to take this forward? And. And he said, the people that are going to take this forward will have the right balance of compassionate understanding and political savvy. And I just went, that's me. I've got that. And what I see in the world of NBC is buckets and buckets of compassionate understanding and perhaps a lack of political savvy. And that's a bit of a generalization, because I can point you to people who really get this in the world and are doing marvelous things and who I've learned from, but that was the big thing. So then I decided I was taking this forward. And then in 2007, I ran a conference to which we invited Marshall and we hosted concentration camp survivors and a business that had bought the site of the former concentration camp. And we invited them into dialogue. And at the same time, I think I might have mentioned this, I was doing the gang work in my local area and. And working with lots of violent crime. And it was only after I did that, around 2010, I started to see the usefulness of what I was doing and started to see where Marshall's work and my own theories were sort of diverging, if you like.
- [26:05]
Interviewer
I mean, first of all, amazing story, both in terms of the funny twist, but also the depth and the impact that it had on you. And of course, also the people around you. And in our little corner, I don't know how Bob sees this, so he will say it himself in a second. But in our little corner of the business world, the stakes are not that high. Right. We're not talking about people wanting to murder each other, maybe only metaphorically and through email.
- [26:35]
Maria Arpa
Hi.
- [26:37]
Interviewer
But only through email, nothing else. Or maybe Twitter for some people. But I do see the importance of understanding the perspective change, which is that, okay, we're not here to try to create what I would call a power struggle set of rules, Right? Because we end up creating that. And I have to mentioned an episode we have with Michel Foucault in our archive, where we dissect, if you will. Sorry, Michel Pock, where we dissect Michel Foucault's Discipline and Punish book, which is a great example of that domination culture that you talk about. And what I see from what you just shared is another example of how this perspective can help us step back from. From that. You call it domination culture. I would call it this power struggle way of relating, right? Like, if I win, you, you lose. If you win, I lose type of mentality. But how about you, Bob? What were your thoughts on this?
- [27:45]
Bob
My motivation, at least for, well, almost my entire career, I guess, has been to help people have a more pleasant, joyful life at work. We all spend. Well, those of us who have jobs spend eight or nine hours a day, five days a week in a work context. And most people who have that experience have a dismal experience. They don't enjoy themselves at all or hardly at all. And very early in my career, I saw that that was the case in a number of companies that I was working with. And it upset me. It made me feel that we could all, as a human being, as a species, we could all be doing so much better. And so that's been my motivation ever since. And NBC fits nicely, dovetails nicely into that ambition.
- [28:51]
Interviewer
One of the things that. I'm curious, Bob, and I know you've written and talked about that before, but give us kind of the skinny on this, this idea of applying NVC to the collective entity, right? Because an organization is a collective entity. I mean, anyone, any organization that has more than two people is already a collective entity, right? So how do you see that NVC in that context of applying those ideas, those concepts, when, let's say the other actor in the work that you're doing isn't one person or a group of individuals, but it's actually a group of individuals plus what they are together, right? The team or a department or an organization.
- [29:33]
Bob
Well, the current principles, the philosophy of MVC runs through many threads. Just one example, perhaps, is. Maria mentioned it a little bit earlier. Fear, obligation, guilt and shame. These are the four levers, the four horsemen of the work apocalypse. And most organizations run themselves using fear, obligation, guilt and shame to get people to do things. That metaphorical stick that I mentioned earlier, the theory X stick. So mvc, in my conversations with the collective entity that is an organization, cautions me not to use those tools to get them to do things. You'll see a typical consultant using some variation of fear, obligation, guilt or shame to get their clients to adopt new behaviors, particularly those behaviors recommended by their consultant. I don't do that anymore. I used to do that, like 20 or 30 years ago. That was my. When I. When I actually was a consultant and wore a consulting hat. You know, just an example of how you could use fear. It's like, well, if you don't do this, and coming closer to home, if you don't adopt Agile, you will be much less profitable. People in, in your peer group will look at you as an idiot and, and other forms of fear to get. In those days it was individuals, but in these days it's more not using fear to motivate organizations to change.
- [31:28]
Interviewer
Absolutely. And Maria, you've started developing your own thoughts and ideas, as you pointed out in what you just said a minute ago, beyond what NVC was as you understood it at the time. And you developed what you call, I think, the dialogue roadmap. Correct. So can you talk about what you saw was either being misunderstood or missing in the way NVC was being applied that you felt the need to kind of express through the dialogue roadmap?
- [31:56]
Maria Arpa
Yeah. So I think there are two things for me and the most simple one is that if you worked with Marshall Rosenberg, you know, if you watched him demoing or doing the work, one of the things he would say is tell me what the problem is in 40 words or less. And I found that rather restrictive so because I think there isn't a culture in the world that doesn't have traditions in storytelling. And so people need to be able to tell their stories. And it might take more than 40 words, it might take several minutes, it might take longer than that. But if you don't let people empty out as long as it takes them to empty out, they're suppressing. And if they're suppressing, it's going to leak out somewhere. So that's the first thing is always making sure that there's been what I call an emptying out process for someone that they have literally reached the end of everything that they're carrying and been able to put words to it. It doesn't have to make sense because what I do is I help people make sense out of their nonsense sense. But they need to be able to get it all out. But the second thing that I found difficult is when Marshall created the model, my understanding is that he didn't create a model of observation, feeling, need, request, and that we would speak like that. That was supposed to be the internal model that would help us to get out of the domination culture habits, the power struggles, the language of power and control, or command and control. We need a way to practice something that gets us out of that. So for example, when I first discovered the needs based theory, I pretty much glued a sheet of neat, a needs sheet to me. And every time I was having the usual thoughts, the you know, who's to blame, I'm to blame, there to blame, who's wrong and all the rest of it. I would literally force myself to look at the needs sheet and try to convert that thinking into needs. And then, I mean, I'm also a Reiki master, so also work with energy and then try to get the energy of the needs into my cells, every cell in my body, because don't forget, your body is a community of cells. So. So that I can actually model something, like physically model something. And so the dialogue roadmap was people need to be able to talk to each other and we need to understand the pattern of a conversation and get out of the debate model. And so the dialogue roadmap is a way of getting out of the debate model into dialogue with a sort of how to. And so the NVC is like part of the engine behind it.
- [35:24]
Interviewer
I want to kind of probe a little bit more because you made a contrast between what a conversation is and what the debate model is. And I want to explore that specifically because in my own experience, what happens in organizations where we are active every day is actually a pattern of a conversation that happens over multiple events, multiple encounters, and of course these days over multiple zoom calls, black messages, emails, et cetera. But it's something that lives through time. And if we don't have that context of what is a conversation, why it matters, and why it's important to look at the conversations that are happening, then we can't act on it. We're still subjects being influenced by it, if nothing else, reacting to it. But we don't know what it is. So help us out understand what this conversation and debate model are and how they are contrasting.
- [36:23]
Maria Arpa
So the way I talk about it is people have conversations. So conversation is the umbrella heading. And because of the way that we have prized, put a high prize on things like academia and science and theology and the law, we've erred towards the debate model of conversation. And the debate model of conversation is about one argument prevailing over all others. And, you know, while that may be a good thing in controlled conditions in a science laboratory or, you know, trying to take apart a theory or whatever, or on the sports field, it's a terrible idea for when we want to meet as humans and have a conversation, because that is the. That's part of the imprint of a domination culture society is it uses the debate model of conversation where when you're talking, all I'm thinking about is how I'm going to respond to either overpower you or to protect myself from fear, humiliation, guilt and shame. So. So I realized that this other way of Having a conversation is called a dialogue. But I couldn't find how to have a dialogue and then how to have a dialogue when you've been totally indoctrinated in debate. Now debate gets even worse because what we were subjected to at school was the most toxic form of debate, which is debate plus enforcement. So debate plus enforcement creates so many wounds in us, and we don't have places to even understand that we're being wounded or places to heal from those wounds. And so what we do is we just keep replicating it and replicating it. So most of what's going on is debate plus enforcement. And we. And I think I heard Bob say there was something that really spoke to me when you said you want people to have a better life at work or a better life anyway. And I believe as humans, we can do better. And for many people, this information just hasn't been shared with them. So we come into the world and we go through this debate plus enforcement model and we're, we're literally programmed to believe it's the only way. And what I'm saying is there is actually a whole nother paradigm where we can be human together first. So. So I mean, obviously the dialog roadmap has a set of, of tools, but it is about states of being. It's not about, I'm using words to demonstrate that I'm in a state of receiving so I can listen to you. I'm using words to demonstrate that I am in the state of empathy. I am using words to demonstrate that I want to give you a gift in the form of some feedback. So it's all about giving, receiving, dancing together, and building relationship before taking actions. And one of the most wonderful things is connection before correction, connection before correction. And part of what I heard you say is that we react to things. You say something and I fire something off. You see, because I believe that as a result of continuous and imposed domination culture, I believe we're actually all living in shock. I think that we have not had enough time to process and we're doing things too quickly. So we've become masters of taking care of the business end of things, you know, getting the job done, multitasking, running multiple projects, goals, deadlines and all. We're masters of that, speeding things up with technology. But what we haven't paid attention to is that our emotions cannot keep up with that. And so we're all backed up, we are all constipated and there aren't the place. What I do is, you know, a lot of my Work is just slowing things down. You know, I heard someone say the other day, oh, but you don't understand. You know, I go at 100 miles an hour. And my response was, think about everything that you missed in the scenery that you would see if you were going.
- [41:29]
Interviewer
At 20 miles an hour or even walking.
- [41:33]
Maria Arpa
Oh, yeah, or walking. But yeah.
- [41:35]
Interviewer
Bob, what's your thoughts? What are your thoughts on this question of organizing our work around conversations versus debate?
- [41:49]
Bob
While Maria was just talking, I was.
- [41:51]
Maria Arpa
Thinking.
- [41:55]
Bob
It'S about needs getting ignored in most organizations. You know, it's not that we have shared needs and we debate about the strategies for getting those needs met or even have. It would be nice to have humane conversations about the strategies, various strategies to get those needs met. But in most. Well, let's not be too general. In many organizations, needs fall by the wayside. They're not even considered, let alone brought up and discussed openly. In some organizations and in some cultures around the world, it's, I guess America is a typical example. It's shaming to even suggest that you have needs or that people have needs. So part of what I do is invite participants to maybe for the first time think that. And when I talk to senior managers and executives to have them think perhaps for the first time, that their employees have needs and is there some value to themselves and to their business in recognizing those needs and doing something about them?
- [43:26]
Interviewer
That's a great question for us to end on. Before we go, though, I do want to ask both of you, what's one resource that you can recommend for people that want to understand NVC and the dialogue roadmap further? Maria, let's start with you.
- [43:43]
Maria Arpa
Well, I mean, the book, Marshall's book, Nonviolent Communication, A Language for Life. I mean, I think it's sold multimillion copies in many languages. But that is, you know, that's the go to. That's the first go to. And if people are interested, just come and talk to me. Mariarper.com just come and talk to me.
- [44:08]
Interviewer
Absolutely. We'll put the link to those two in the show notes. And you heard it. Everybody reach out to Maria. How about Bob? Bob, what's one resource that you have for those of us listening perhaps curious to explore this idea further?
- [44:26]
Bob
There's the. My blog, which has been going for like 15 years now. Almost every blog post, and there's something like 1500 blog posts there now. Almost every blog post has a raft of citations of other blog posts or articles or quite often books that relate to this subject amongst many others. Talking about Marsha Rosenberg's books, I find his book the Surprising Purpose of Anger very educative. A lot of people struggle with anger and frustration, particularly in the workplace, and don't really understand where that's coming from, why.
- [45:10]
Interviewer
And we end up thinking we need to express it in a way that others get to hear it, and we often forget to hear it ourselves.
- [45:18]
Bob
Yeah, yeah. And finally, and mentioned on my blog, in many cases, in many posts, is the books on organizational psychotherapy that I've written. So I've written three books on the subject. So if anybody is really at all interested in what organizational psychotherapy actually is, then there's a bunch of resources internally in the form of books that they can take a look at.
- [45:48]
Interviewer
Absolutely.
- [45:49]
Maria Arpa
Well, I just love to add one thing, if that's okay, because, you know, we've spoken a lot about MVC and how it helps and. And what it is and what the differences are. And one of the things that often happens when people hit resistance is they think they haven't got time for all of this. And one of the things that I really want to share is that when I introduce this work, and I'm pretty sure it will be the same for Bob, we get more done with less resource once we've been through the tunnel.
- [46:24]
Bob
Yeah, it's like taking the rocks out of the river, to use a lean analogy.
- [46:29]
Maria Arpa
Yeah, there we go.
- [46:31]
Interviewer
Well, both of you, thank you very much for being here, sharing all that wisdom and stories and tips with us. It's been a pleasure. It's nvc, and working with people is a core aspect of what we do in any organization. But of course, even more in organizations where people relating to each other is the essential interaction that is needed to create value. And of course, all knowledge work is like that. There are no machines working for us. We do need to get together and work together to reach common objectives. So thank you, Maria. Thank you, Bob, for being here and for being so generous with your time and your knowledge.
- [47:13]
Maria Arpa
Thank you.
- [47:15]
Bob
Thank you. Spin of Joy.
- [47:18]
Host
Hey, friend. Thank you for staying here.
- [47:21]
Interviewer
Is all you need to know about.
- [47:23]
Host
The Global Agile Summit. If you've ever suffered or know people who are suffering from Agile fatigue, this event is for you. Agile Fatigue is that feeling that settles in when we can't really see a light at the end of the tunnel. We get discouraged, especially when conversations revolve around the same old frameworks, the same old buzzwords and theories. We don't feel that energy anymore. Well, the Global Agile Summit is a different kind of event. We're bringing you real life first person stories of Agile succeeding out there in the real world that will inspire you to take action and transform the way you work. The Global Agile Summit will happen in Tallinn, Estonia May 18th. That's the workshop day. Then 19th and 20th, the conference day. And Tallinn, Estonia is one of the most innovative tech hubs in Europe. The Global Agile Summit is hosted together with Latitude 59, which is kind of a citywide celebration of software startups and groundbreaking ideas. And we'll have a shared ticket for you to attend those events as well. So who will be speaking? Well, we've got an incredible lineup of thought leaders in software and agile. For example, Clinton Keith, the person who wrote literally wrote the book on game development with Scrum and is busy bringing Agile to the world of game development. You must check his session. The very famous and well known Jurgen Apello, author of Management 3.0, will be talking and exploring about AI's impact on leadership. We also have Goiko Adsic, who's taking an unconventional look at the product growth with his Lizard optimization tool keynote. Other speakers include, for example Sven Dietz, who's challenging everything we know about software development by ditching, literally ditching contracts and estimates. Can you imagine his teams deliver software before their competitors are even done with a contract negotiation? How agile is that? But there's more. We'll cover engineering practices in our developer track with talks on, for example AI assisted test driven development, developing products in minutes with a different approach to how we develop, configure, deploy platforms, and much more. We also have a product track where we cover cutting edge ideas around product discovery, delighting customers with product product delight frameworks. We'll have a talk about that. And we also have an Agile business track where we will talk about, for example Open strategy, a very agile approach to managing organizations and delivering software faster to clients faster than you can even write a contract. Literally. I mean, I already told you about Svendit's story is amazing. It definitely is a must see. I'm sure you'll be inspired and get a lot of ideas for your own software projects and software delivery. Now, whether you're a business leader, a product innovator or a developer, you'll definitely find value in our three focused tracks. That's Agile business for those working with businesses and organizations, Agile products for product managers, product owners and innovators, and Agile developer for the builders making agile work in practice. The coders, the testers, the designers, the producers, the Scrum masters, you name it. If you join, you will meet over 200 agile professionals from all over the world. People who, just like you, want to grow, want to share, and want to learn. By challenging the ideas that don't work anymore at the Global Agile Summit, you'll get new connections, fresh ideas, and the energy to take your own Agile to the next level. And who knows, maybe even find your next career opportunity. So don't miss out. Check out the full program and grab your ticket now at Global Agile Summit. Summit. Com. I'm really looking forward to seeing you all in Tallinn, Estonia in May.
- [51:56]
Interviewer
I'll see you there.