← Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
BONUS Product Delight - How to make your product stand out with emotional connection With Nesrine Changuel
00:40:28
BONUS: Nesrine Changuel shares how to create product delight through emotional connection! In this BONUS episode we explore the book by ' In this conversation, we explore Nesrine's journey from research to product management, share lessons from her...
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- [00:04]
A
Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question.
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B
What if for the price of a.
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A
Fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership. And it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership. That's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.
- [01:12]
B
Hello everybody, welcome to a very special bonus episode from France joins us, a previous guest and right now also officially a book author, Nesrin Shangel. Hey Nesrin, welcome back.
- [01:27]
C
Hi Vasco.
- [01:29]
B
So Nesrin is a product coach, a trainer and an author with experience at Google, Spotify, Partnership, Me and Microsoft. She holds a PhD from Bell Labs and UCLA and she blends research and practice to guide teams in building emotionally resonant products. She's based in Paris and she teaches and speaks globally on human centered design. She's here today to talk about her latest book. It's called Product how to make your product stand out with emotional connection. Nesrin, thank you for being here and we're really pleased to have you back. Tell us a little bit more. Why did you decide to start the writing of a book project? Because as you know right now, and I knew already then, it's not an easy project.
- [02:21]
C
It is definitely not. But thanks for bringing the question. Let me maybe give you the journey and then we will understand how I landed writing the book throughout the journey because there is a story behind that. So as you mentioned, I've been in product for most of my career, but I've been also building product in very mature and very, let's say big companies. And my very first product I started building was part of Skype. I was based back then in Sweden and I was coming from research, so I was coming from this like a very, let's say deep research time. And I was bringing with me that of course like a knowledge from research, like making sure that I need to understand the problem, I need to make sure that we understand what's needed to be built, trying to put that in practice into the product. So that was my first pivot. Like I was pivoting from research into product management. But I quickly realized that there is something that is quite intense while building skills Skype and more particularly at Skype. Because Skype is not just a product that just work or that just function. It's also something that we build emotion with it. Like at that time when I moved to Skype, it happens that I also left my country or my home country. So I was using personally Skype to make that connection with friends and family, et cetera. So it was very clear that Skype is not just that communication tool, but it was iconic with its blue with ringtones with emojis. So it was clear that it's not just for making calls, but also to make you feel connected, relaxed and, but also like a part of it. So and then I moved, as you said at Spotify, and I realized that of course like the emotional part is even more important in there. But you know what, when I moved to Google Meet, so right after Spotify moved to Google Meet, I became what my title job was called, Delight pm. That was for me the very first time that I started to put the name Delight into the product word. Even if I was already trying to build Delight into Spotify and Skype, I did not have the title like Delight pm. Before my Google Meet job at Google Meet, I started to realize that of course Google Meet had to work and function properly in the best condition, but we wanted users to feel positive emotion while using Google Meet. And I've been building Google Meet for about four years. And then during that time I was also evangelizing and talking a lot about that topic on stages and conferences until I realized that hey, this topic resonates so well with the audience. People are reaching out, they want to learn more. So I decided to start writing about it. So I wrote some blogs, some I gave some talks about it. But then I realized it's something much bigger that deserve much more than giving talks and workshops. So I started writing the book and now I have a quite big and full book ready not only with how to build the light, but also fill of filled with stories. So what makes this book quite unique? I call it also, yes, Product Delight, but it's also Product Stories because it's full of my stories. Building Skype, Spotify, Google Meet, Google Chrome. And they also inserted stories from other companies who managed to successfully integrate Delight into their products.
- [06:13]
B
So let's explore that a little bit more. For those interested, you can visit our website and check out the previous episodes where we explored the product Delight grid and so on. But there are a lot of people listening to us right now that didn't listen to that episode. So give us kind of the overview. What does Delight look like in practice? Maybe with one of those stories and how do we know we've achieved it?
- [06:37]
C
Yes. So I think I've been an engineer before, being a researcher or whatever. So we understand as engineers, and most engineers understand that it's extremely important to build something that works, like from a functional perspective. It has to work like if you're doing a video call tool, I mean, the video call has to work. If you're doing a streaming audio streaming product, then you have to stream audio. And engineers are really, really good at making perfect things perfectly functioning. The Delight is about creating two dimension and combining these two dimensions altogether. It's about creating products that function well, but also that help with the emotional connection. So let me explain. The best to explain that is let's use Spotify. As an example. I use Spotify in addition to being a PM at Spotify. Of course, I use Spotify personally. And it happens that I sometimes want to use Spotify because I want to listen to music, but also sometimes I put Spotify because I feel lonely, I want to feel less lonely, I want to feel productive, because also sometimes it helps me writing in a more effective way. So we as users, we do have two kind of needs. There is the functional needs. I call it like the functional motivators. What motivates me to use a product from a functional perspective. And there are also emotional motivators or emotional needs. And if you only focus on the functional motivators, you will create product that function, but they will not create that emotional connection. If you take into consideration the emotional motivators in addition to the functional motivators, you create perfect products that connect with users emotionally. So that's the concept of Delight. It's about combining and figuring out what are the emotional needs and functional needs and implement that into your product.
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B
So I remember many years ago I used to work at Nokia just before the iPhone came out and Android started to be popular. Which is an interesting point, kind of an inflection point, because it really brought a completely different type of people to what we now call smartphones, which, by the way, was a term that Nokia used way before Apple ever thought about publishing an iPhone or producing an iPhone. But I remember 2007 distinctly because I had two camps of people in my friend group like there was this group of people that said Nokia is the best, it will always be the best because it's technically the best. The industrial design is great, they have the best cameras, whatever. Let's not forget that when the iPhone had a really crappy camera, Nokia was publishing 40 megapixel cameras, which is right now even. Not all top end phones have that kind of camera right now. But then there was the other kind of friend in that distinction, that spectrum of perspectives. And the other kind of friend was that yeah, but it just works, right? And it just works. It's kind of a code word for something else than the technology itself. Right. So we have this very technology centric group of people in my friend group that, that really loved the technology and wanted things to be whatever, top end, super developed, whatever that might be, whether it's camera or algorithms or whatever. And then you had these other people that just wanted something that felt good. They said it just works. But isn't that also kind of a way for us to know that there's a connection that goes beyond the actual technology being offered?
- [10:18]
C
Absolutely. I usually consider a few pillars related to creating delights. And some of those pillars are going beyond expectation and anticipating needs. So these are extremely important pillars when it comes to creating delightful product. Let me explain. So in your case, the fact that users are saying it just works is somehow a little bit higher than expectation because people are so used to go settings and change, like sometimes debugging and restarting. The fact that it just works seamlessly and effortlessly is something that is beyond expectation and that creates what we call positive surprise. I mean if we go into the theory of delight, delight is a combination of two emotions. It's the combination of surprise and joy. So if your product is creating a positive surprise, let's say the fact that is working seamlessly, effortlessly, without any effort, then that that creates a positive surprise and create delight into users life. So that's exceeding expectation. The other pillar which I consider extremely important as well is going let's say anticipating needs. Like sometime we go and search for what are users needs. But this might be a little bit late because if you already figured out the needs from users, that's a little bit late. However, if you manage to anticipate that by talking to users, by knowing exactly what their behavior is, then you can anticipate those needs and bring them into the product to create what the positive surprise. Let me take a very good let's say Microsoft Edge for example. I use Microsoft Edge. I didn't use Microsoft Edge so much before, let's say certain time. But recently I discovered a feature called shopping, used to be called coupon. The reason why I love this feature and I'm talking about it today is because if you're, let's say searching for an item and I was very recently searching for a coffee machine and I reached the level where I have to pay, when I was about to pay for that machine, the edge suggested a coupon. I didn't even ask for it. You see, like it suggests, hey, what if you try this coupon and see if that will reduce the price for you? And bingo, yes, it just reduced 15% of the price I was already about to pay. So for me this is somehow exceeding expectation, but also anticipating needs that I was not even aware that I wanted a coupon. So similar to what? Of course, like you brought the example of Nokia, but there are plenty of examples nowadays that we remember them because they created those peak moments or these moments of surprise or positive surprise that creates and hardens the connection and the emotional connection with the product.
- [13:23]
B
So when you talk about delight in the book, you actually talk about this. Segmenting users by motivators. I really like that. So before we go on to the follow up question, because I do have a follow up question, unpack that for us. When you talk about product light and segmenting users by motivators, what are you talking about? Exactly.
- [13:42]
C
Yes. So of course for every product we're building from scratch, the very, very first step we need to do is knowing our users, who are our users. And there are different types of segmenting, our Personas or our users. There is the segmentation that is based on the who. And for example, you try to understand whether they are male, female, young, elder, etc. And there is a second type of segmentation that is more based on behavior which relate to the what, meaning that what do they use the product for, when do they use the product, do they use it in the morning, in the afternoon, which feature within the product do they use, etc. By the way, the behavioral segmentation is already much better than the demographic segmentation I just mentioned earlier. The third type of segmentation, which for me beat them all, and it's the most interesting one, is the motivational segmentation which is very much related to the why why certain users use the product. And surprisingly, and I love this exercise because I've done it multiple times, surprisingly, we can discover that users are using your product for different reasons. I mean, we tend to think that users are using the product for the same reason. But remember the example of Spotify? People sometimes go to Spotify for searching for a specific song. Others might go to Spotify to get inspired, like inspire me, give me something I never heard before and I hope it will match my taste. And sometimes people go to Spotify because for nostalgia reason or they want to change their mood. I mean, they are feeling excited or sad or they want to feel less lonely. So it's extremely important to list those motivators. I mean, by talking to your users you will identify what are these different type of motivators. And of course you need to identify the functional motivators and the emotional motivator. And that's extremely important because when you list them down, then you will start building features that are 100% aligned with what users want, not aligned with who are the users or what the users are doing. It's aligned with what users really want from your product. And that's the theory behind motivational segmentation.
- [16:10]
B
So I remember one other product framework that I'd seen, a similar approach. It's called Jobs to be Done. It was built by a group of people among which Clayton Christensen, who wrote one of the most important books ever in product development called the Innovator's Dilemma. For those of you who want to know more, there's a few episodes on the podcast about that as well. But he talks about the triggers. He doesn't call it motivators necessarily, although he's talking about why are people using or buying your product, but he calls it triggers. When you think about the segmentation of users by motivators, emotional and functional, and the idea of triggers by the Jobs to be Done framework, what is the difference? Do you see a contrast there or do you see that these are aligned? What's your thoughts?
- [16:56]
C
There's no contrast. I mean, to be honest, it's quite aligned. And I'm a big fan of the Job to be done framework. I think it's one of the very early framework that I started using in my PM career. And that's also what made me think the way thinking today, like from a. From a motivational aspect and by the way, the Job to be Done framework. What I love about it is that it distinguish between emotional like personal emotional motivators, but also the social emotional motivators. Let me explain. Personal emotional motivators is what user want to feel while using the product. Social emotional motivators is what user want to feel or what user want others to feel about them while using the Product. Just think about you using a product not only to satisfy your personal emotion, but also to feel good or to feel cool in front of others. Like some people buy Rolex, of course for their self satisfaction, but also for social proof or to prove something within the society and the community. So also the same for Spotify, by the way, we've been applying these concepts quite some time because some people use Spotify, of course for their emotion, but also to feel part of something, to be part of a community. And that's why features like Spotify Jam or like Listening in a Room Together or Collaborative Playlist exist, because we want people or users to feel part of something. So these are the concept of job to be done. And as I mentioned, the delight concept is aligned with that. What I brought in addition to the job to be done, and it's very well described in the book, is how now to convert those, let's say I call them motivators into real features that delight. Because the job to be done is the basics, it's the foundation, it's the theory, let's say. But some people just get stuck there and they don't know how to use those triggers or motivators to turn them into real product features that connect that delight and that create positive emotions.
- [19:07]
B
I'm glad that you mentioned the social aspect of these motivators because of course we are now in the age of social media, which has become for many the most addictive activity. I mean, we hear about all kinds of impacts. Some are good, some are not so good from using digital social media. I myself, for example, I'm going through a detox period, as I like to call it, which is I'm not using social media on purpose so as not to be influenced by what it shouts at me all the time. But also one thing that I realized is that even the people who are aware of the power of the different features that are added to social media, I'll just take one example, like Instagram reels as an example. This is a product that people have told me that they start looking at it and 15 minutes later they realize they haven't produced anything, they haven't learned anything, but they just spent 15 minutes scrolling through a bunch of Instagram reels. So we also have this problem, which is that if you really target those triggers, you might do it for good, to create something that is useful and instructive and valuable for the people who use the product. Or you also might create some addictive product features that in the end leave you and leave us feeling empty. But they are great for the product producers. They sell more ads. So how do you then navigate that line between using the product, the framework that you've created, which is a very powerful framework but requires a lot of responsibility and try to stay away from that line of creating addiction for the benefit of some large gray corporation that just wants to squeeze money out of its users.
- [21:04]
C
Thank you for bringing this question. It's a really, really interesting one. And I've got this discussion by the way with Marty Kagan when he was reviewing my book and he brought that point as well because they're really interesting one and we had that discussion and for me it's extremely important to distinguish between delight and addiction. By the way, there is absolutely no connection between the two. Let me explain. Building for the Light is about creating products that are aligned with users value. It's about in line with what people really want themselves to feel. They want to feel themselves to feel a better version of themselves. They want to feel proud, they want to feel relaxed. However, if the product is making you feel the opposite, like frustrated about your behavior or unhappy and you want to go through a detox, then that's definitely not your value. And I will explain this through. I think the best example is let's take Wrapped for example. Wrapped the, you know the the end of year retrospective that is generated by Spotify and you see what you've been listening to throughout the year is one of the most successful campaign and every other company and any other product is trying to copy Wrapped because they've seen the huge success of Wrapped. But why not every product is succeeding to make it successful as Spotify. The reason is because it depends on what value are you reflecting to the users out of this retrospective. For example, let me give you let's say you've been watching videos and I'm telling you hey Vasco, You've been watching 15 Hours video this week. How would you feel if I'm giving you this retrospective?
- [22:59]
B
Yeah, either I really need those videos for some reason or it's been just wasted time that I didn't spend with my family.
- [23:07]
C
You might be reflective as you are doing now. So you probably Did I learn anything out of this video? Was it productive or not? However, if I tell you, hey Vasco, you've been learning three, four skills this week. You ramped up on these two three topics and now you're knowledgeable about them. There's a huge difference between giving you this raw data. You've been watching 15 hours or 20 hours video versus hey you, I seen you watching 3 TEDx this this week and I feel you're getting better into public speaking or into communication or whatever topic you've been watching. So that's for me to explain that if the product is aligned with what you value, then you create this positive relaxed emotion. However, if I'm giving you information that that is not aligned with your value, then it's probably toward the addiction and in that case we need to avoid. So please keep in mind that Delight is about creating products that create positive emotion that is 100% aligned with users value. It's not about making the money. Of course we want to make money for the business, but you can get that money if you create the product that make users feel the best version of themselves.
- [24:28]
B
So I hear you and of course I'm tempted to be a little bit more provocative and ask you, have you stopped using Instagram lately?
- [24:37]
C
I mean, honestly, I don't use Instagram, maybe because I'm getting older or whatever, but I do use for example LinkedIn heavily. And the reason why I use LinkedIn is not for the addictive part, but for the productive part. I feel like I'm getting better more, I feel more productive. I feel also connected to the world around me and the community that is around me. And also I feel a better version of myself while I'm part of LinkedIn. However, I can force myself to stop watching these reels, for example, because I have this awareness that hey, this is going against my values and I can stop. I understand not every people can stop. We don't necessarily have the same maturity and we don't have the same age. And it could be a trap. And it's unfortunate that we surf on those traps and we make money for things that are not ethic. So Delight is all about being aligned with users value and not creating trends and addiction.
- [25:49]
B
So you define or you place let's say the Product Delight framework within this wider piece of work that started many years ago called Human Centered Design. How do you think Product Delight connects to the principles of Human Centered Design?
- [26:08]
C
Let's be transparent and honest. When it comes to emotional connection, it's not a new topic. It's a topic that had been widely covered mainly in two areas. First, design. There are plenty of books and I love these books. One of them is called Emotional Design. The other one is Designing for Emotion. It's about how can we create emotional design. And the other area that is heavily invested into Emotion Connection is marketing. I mean the best marketing campaign are those who surf into on emotions and create the emotional ads. I mean, those are the ads we remember. That's why Coca Cola's ads are so viral, et cetera. However, what I realized before writing this book is that talking about emotional connection is not that common within business and product words. And that was a problem for me because what this creates is a gap. You have designers talking about human design and emotional connection. You have marketers on the other end talking about emotional connection. And what happens in between is that, that people are just having no idea what you're talking about. And that creates a mismatch and miscommunication and a gap into creating those standout products. So that was one of the reasons why I wanted to bring this topic into this middle layer and make people talk the same language. Now your question is about this human centric design, and I'm putting that, by the way, I'm talking a lot about that in one of my chapter as the lighter or the light enhancer. It's about making product feel as if it was done by a human being. And I'm going to give you a great example here. When I worked at Google Meet, actually happens that I work at Google Meet, right when Pandemic hit Europe, the exact same period I was joining Google Meet was not a very ideal period of my life. I mean, nobody loved that period. But for me, from a productivity perspective, it was very important because we have been working on a super concrete challenge which is how can we make people feel good while having remote meetings? And instead of comparing Google Meet to Zoom or Teams or whatever other tool, do you know what we were comparing Google Meet to?
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B
No, what were you.
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C
We were always comparing Google Meet to. How would it be better if we were all in the same room and having this meeting all together in the same room? Why? Because this raises the bar. This is what's the perfect example of having meeting. It's the same room. And we started listing what's missing. If you're having a remote call, what's missing? What are you missing compared to having this meeting in a room? And that's what I call humanization. Like how can you make your product feel as close as possible to a human version of the product? And I was the other day talking with Andy, the head of product at Dyson, and he told me something very similar that I loved. So Andy told me that at Dyson they don't compare their vacuum cleaner to competitor, they compare their vacuum cleaner to what if you hire a real person to clean your house? How would it be better if you hire versus the Dyson vacuum cleaner. And of course it's very similar to the Google Meet example. But I loved when he said, hey, we got inspired from that comparison and we introduced like recommendation because if you hire someone, you will probably ask that person to start with a certain room or to clean in a certain way. So they added this recommendation into their dyes and robots so that it make you feel a little bit closer to as if you're hiring someone and you're asking that person and giving the recommendations. So humanization into product is not necessarily related to design because the design, the humanization in design is how the surface of the design may look friendly. The humanization in product is how you build the feature in a way that it feel as if you're interacting with a real human. Just ask yourself this question, how would it be better if the product was a real human? How would it react better?
- [30:30]
B
Okay, so I'm really excited to ask the next question exactly because of what you just said, because of course AI is all the rage now and AI isn't human. But how do you think AI will influence product delight in the future both in terms of features like including AI in the product, but as well as in helping with the design process?
- [30:52]
C
Yes, actually what I want to highlight every time I'm asked about AI, AI is a tool. And as every tool we're using can be used in a good way or could be used in a bad way and it is extremely possible to use AI in a very good way to make your product feel more human and more empathetic and more emotionally engaging. So let me give you an example. I been using ChatGPT for a long time now. Every as everyone any listeners and sometimes it gives me crap. I mean the answer are not necessarily great. However, what I feel good sometimes is the way I'm getting these answers. The fact that there is an apologize there is like oh sorry, thank you for giving the me these extra details or let me try. I mean that make me feel as if I'm working with a assistant sometime. I mean sometimes I have this feeling that hey, I'm working less lonely. Especially now that I left Google and I really needed this support. I feel like my chatgpt is like someone who's working beside me and next to me and supporting me. So you see, I'm giving this example to say that it's not necessarily always about the function. Of course the functional result is has to be good but the way the result is delivered could be empathetic, can be full of Positive emotion that create and trigger good emotion. So again, AI, I think it's going into the good direction. The only advice I usually give is that how can we use AI in order to trigger and identify those emotional motivators and honor them in a good way, not put them on the side.
- [32:40]
B
Now I have an inspiration question. A lot of people listening to us are in those teams that are developing the products. They could be testers, UX designers, product managers, but also developers. Developer experience has become quite a big topic to the point of. And now also with AI, we start to see a lot more talking about how do we make developers live easier, more productive, less bugs, faster development, whatever that is when you think about the customer being developers. So product developers, how do you look at delight in that context?
- [33:21]
C
Yes, I've got this question many times on stage and I love it because sometimes there's this mistake where people think about delight as something for B2C product or like customer facing product. Hey, I mean then nowadays the good news is that we see very large company including like B2B companies investing into making users life easier and faster and better. For example, I've been interviewing companies like Atlassian who's building like a JIRA and they are heavily investing into making jira having better interface, making users feel better emotion while using the product. And the other surprise I can share with you is that I also get chance to interview companies like GitHub while writing the book and I was positively surprised that company like GitHub that their main users are developers and engineers is heavily investing into delight. And by the way, company like GitHub have even invented a metric called doof where D stands for delight in order to measure the level of delight of the engineers or the users who are using their products. So that's just to make it clear that delight is not only for B2C product, it's almost for all products. And my answer is the following. If the user of your product are human being, I mean if the product is used by a human being, whether business, consumer, engineers, they deserve their emotions to be honored. So I usually don't distinguish between B2B or B2C or hardware or wherever I say like B2H which is business to human. And in that case we need to identify the emotion and we need to make sure that we are solving for those emotions though so that the engineers or whoever using the product is feeling good about that. By the way, I want to share one extra example because I was interviewing a facilitator, a workshop facilitator and she was mentioning Miro, for example, as a tool that she was in love with. She was using quite a lot and she said, of course Miro is a great remote tool that make you like a better make your workshop in a much more effective way, but also a tool that makes you feel a better facilitator or a better leader. And that's a dimension that is related to the emotion. That is definitely not an accident. It's something that has been addressed with a target. Yeah, absolutely.
- [36:05]
B
And Mural or Miro are great examples of tools that have started from that idea. Just like when you were working at Google Meet, right? Like how can we make this feel in the case of those tools? Actually even better than working around the whiteboard because I mean the collective editing features, the anonymization of voting and all of those things are things that facilitators know very well and are extremely hard to replicate even in person. So in those regards, those tools have even become better than in person facilitation. Now, for all of you listening to us, the book is Product how to make your product stand out with emotional connection. It's now available in all your favorite bookshops as we publish this Nazreen, if people want to not just read the book but also get in touch with you, maybe even learn more about the work that you're doing, where should they go?
- [37:00]
C
Yes, so they can find me of course on LinkedIn. As I mentioned, I love being there. I also publish weekly blog posts about the Light. So I share stories, products, contact stories, interviews. I'm available on Substack. They can find me there as well. There's a website called nesrin shangel.com they can reach out. There is a contact form if they want to reach out. I would love of course people to give me feedback about the book. The book is just published, it's available on Amazon and I would love to hear stories. So usually I ask people if they relate with the topic to give me their stories, share their stories of delight, how they managed to implement that into their product. I also can coach toward that topic. I give workshops on how to implement delightful product within organizations. So can feel free to reach out to me and I'm happy to take that conversation.
- [37:59]
B
Absolutely. Nesrin, thank you very much for being with us and for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.
- [38:05]
C
Thank you. Vesto.
- [38:10]
A
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- [40:00]
B
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