BONUS Solution-Focused Coaching for Agile Teams With Ralph and Veronika

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches
Episode: BONUS Solution-Focused Coaching for Agile Teams With Ralf and Veronika
Host: Vasco Duarte
Release Date: May 26, 2025

---

Introduction to Solution-Focused Coaching

In this bonus episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte engages in an enlightening conversation with Ralf Mierka and Veronika Jungvirth, the co-authors of Solution Focused Coaching for Agile Teams. The discussion centers around the principles and practical applications of solution-focused coaching within agile environments, offering valuable insights for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches seeking to enhance their coaching methodologies.

Understanding Solution-Focused Coaching

Veronika begins by demystifying solution-focused coaching, contrasting it with traditional problem-solving approaches commonly used in retrospectives and root cause analyses.

Veronika Jungvirth [02:47]:
"Solution focus focuses on the goal itself. So the word solution focus is a bit irritating maybe because we are not talking about how can we solve something? First we talk about what do we want to achieve... we immediately go into the future and try to find out and to be clear about what do we want to achieve and how can we get there from where we are at the moment."

This approach emphasizes defining and pursuing desired outcomes rather than delving into the origins of problems, thereby fostering a forward-thinking mindset.

Solution-Focused vs. Problem-Solving Approaches

Vasco raises a critical point about the necessity of understanding root causes in engineering contexts, prompting Ralf to elaborate on the distinction between complicated and complex problems.

Ralf Mierka [04:40]:
"In engineering problems are in the sphere of the Cynefin model, there are complicated problems... in a complex world, whenever we have humans involved, we immediately come into a complex world. There it is basically impossible to go through and find all the causes and all the root causes..."

Ralf explains that in complex scenarios, especially those involving human interactions, seeking exhaustive root cause analyses can be impractical. Instead, solution-focused coaching advocates for defining future goals and collaboratively working towards them without getting bogged down by past issues.

Origins and History of Solution-Focused Coaching

Veronika provides a historical backdrop, tracing solution-focused coaching to the work of Steve de Shazer and Insoo Kimberg in family therapy during the 1970s and 1980s.

Veronika Jungvirth [07:30]:
"Steve Deshazer and Insoo Kimberg were two therapists... they found out some clients were likely to give away the problem very quickly and go with the therapist into the better future... there were several attitudes and principles that helped getting rid of the problem and going into the world of searching for a solution."

This therapeutic lineage underscores the adaptability of solution-focused principles beyond individual therapy into team and organizational coaching.

Application in Agile Teams

The conversation delves into how solution-focused coaching can be seamlessly integrated into agile teams, contrasting it with traditional agile practices that often prioritize problem-solving.

Ralf Mierka [10:32]:
"We talk with those that want to stay more in the past... instead we immediately go into the future and try to find out and to be clear about what do we want to achieve and how can we get there from where we are at the moment."

By shifting the focus to desired outcomes, teams can navigate complexities more effectively, fostering alignment and shared vision.

Key Concepts: Not Knowing Position and Everyone is an Expert

Two foundational concepts of solution-focused coaching are explored: the "not knowing position" and the belief that "everyone is an expert in their situation."

Veronika Jungvirth [14:38]:
"The not knowing position reminds us that what the one guy is talking about is not the same story that I have in my mind... we should ask questions like, 'Tell me more about your goal,' instead of assuming we know the solution."

Ralf Mierka [23:12]:
"Everyone grows continuously anyway... to look in which pockets do I want to learn more... set according actions."

These principles advocate for humility and curiosity in coaching, empowering team members to take ownership of their challenges and solutions.

Practical Examples and Case Studies

Ralf shares compelling anecdotes illustrating the effectiveness of solution-focused coaching. In one instance, he describes transforming a team's skepticism about Scrum into enthusiasm by helping them envision a successful implementation.

Ralf Mierka [17:01]:
"The guy was opposing Scrum. How could he just describe the perfect Scrum team...? He was then suddenly beaming and happy... he became the grandmaster of the team."

Such stories highlight how focusing on solutions can unlock hidden potential and foster a more collaborative and motivated team environment.

The Miracle Question

A significant portion of the discussion is dedicated to the "miracle question," a technique pioneered by Insoo Kimberg to help clients envision their desired future.

Veronika Jungvirth [28:52]:
"Imagine we are working good together here... what would be a very small first sign that tells you that there must have been a miracle during the night."

Ralf provides a practical application of this concept in a team setting, demonstrating how it can inspire teams to achieve beyond their perceived limitations.

Ralf Mierka [31:04]:
"We spent half an hour building up on ideas... the rest of the team chipped in and convinced their architect that it is possible to show something at their fair."

The miracle question serves as a powerful tool to shift perspectives from constraints to possibilities.

Encouraging Scrum Masters to Embrace Solution-Focused Coaching

Veronika and Ralf offer guidance to Scrum Masters on adopting a solution-focused mindset, emphasizing the importance of fostering autonomy and ownership within teams.

Veronika Jungvirth [33:37]:
"Trust that everyone is expert in their own situation... practice your questioning skills... allow others to fix their problems themselves."

Ralf Mierka [34:33]:
"Decide when to fix and when to give room... support the organization to grow so that the agile coach can leave at some stage."

This approach not only accelerates the change process but also ensures that improvements are sustainable and driven by the team itself.

Practical Questions to Implement

Towards the end of the episode, Ralf and Veronika share actionable questions that listeners can incorporate into their standups or retrospectives to foster a solution-focused environment.

Veronika Jungvirth [37:56]:
"What do we want to achieve? What are we here for?"

Ralf Mierka [38:24]:
"What works already? What can we take on our journey?... On a scale of 0 to 10, how confident are you?"

These questions are designed to stimulate constructive dialogue and align the team towards common goals.

Resources and Further Information

Listeners interested in delving deeper into solution-focused coaching can explore the following resources:

• Book: Solution Focused Coaching for Agile Teams, a guide to collaborative leadership by Ralf Mierka and Veronika Jungvirth.
• Website: Sindvohl Minos Fuehren Ponkom (Note: Currently being redesigned)
• LinkedIn & Xing: Connect with Ralf and Veronika for more insights and networking opportunities.
• Conference: Solution Focused World Conference in Belgium.

Conclusion

This episode underscores the transformative potential of solution-focused coaching in agile settings. By prioritizing goals over problems and empowering team members as experts of their own experiences, Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches can drive meaningful and lasting improvements within their teams.

Notable Quotes:

• Veronika Jungvirth [02:47]:
  "We immediately go into the future and try to find out and to be clear about what do we want to achieve and how can we get there."

• Ralf Mierka [04:40]:
  "In a complex world, it's basically impossible to find all the causes and root causes... instead, we define what we want to have in the future."

• Veronika Jungvirth [14:38]:
  "The not knowing position reminds us that what the one guy is talking about is not the same story that I have in my mind."

• Ralf Mierka [17:01]:
  "He was then suddenly beaming and happy... he became the grandmaster of the team."

• Veronika Jungvirth [28:52]:
  "The miracle question needs people to go into the world of the miracle, into the world of better, into the world of having already reached the goal."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the podcast episode, providing actionable insights and practical examples for Agile practitioners eager to implement solution-focused coaching in their workflows.

Transcript

[Vasco]

Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question. What if, for the price of a fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame warfree and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's the Scrum Master Toolbox membership. And it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership. That's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.

[Host]

Hello everybody. Welcome to one more bonus episode. And for this bonus episode we have a tag team. Ralf Mierka and Veronika Jungvirth. Hello there. Hello.

[Ralf Mierka]

Hi Vasco.

[Host]

I hope I pronounced your names correctly.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

Perfect.

[Host]

Ralph is an agile coach, a trainer, and also the co author of the book that is our topic for today's episode, Solution Focused Coaching for Agile Teams. Ralph helps teams thrive through solution focused coaching. With a background in engineering and leadership, he bridges structure and empathy with the goal to spark real change. Veronika, who's also the co author of the same book, is also a coach, a consultant and a facilitator. She blends solution focused coaching with leadership development and her work empowers individuals and teams to navigate complexity with clarity, meaning and lasting impact. And I'm really happy to have Ralph and Veronika with us for this episode because we're going to tackle a topic that I think doesn't get enough airtime in our agile community. That is of course, solution focused coaching. And they wrote a book specifically focusing on agile teams. So maybe. Veronika, let's start with you. For those new to the idea. What is this solution focused coaching? How would you explain it specifically to people who've heard a lot about problem solving, root cause analysis, you know, going through problems in retrospectives. What is this solution focused coaching?

[Veronika Jungvirth]

This is exactly it. Thank you very much Vasco, for the invitation and for your question. Solution focus focuses on the goal itself. So the word solution focus is a bit irritating maybe because we are not talking about the how can we solve something? First we talk about and we focus on what do we want to achieve. So the solution is more the goal than the way. And we focus on the future, on this, what we want to achieve, rather than on the problem that what is not working, what do we want to get rid of? These are all things that belong to the problem and not to the state of the goal. And the solution focus is a brief communication system. So we try briefly get to there where we want to be. And we can get there very quickly because we do not waste time on finding out why is something not like we want it to be and who is guilty for what we have now. And you know, all these things. Instead of that, we immediately go into the future and try to find out and to be clear about what do we want to achieve and how can we get there from where we are at the moment.

[Host]

So the follow up question, of course, and I'm sure our listeners are asking this question, maybe even walking in the street and asking this question out loud directly, wait a minute. But in engineering, you can't solve problems without knowing the root cause. Ralph, I'm sure you have an answer to that question.

[Ralf Mierka]

That was also on my tongue. Yeah, in engineering and engineering problems are in the speak of the Cynefin model, there are complicated problems. In complicated problems, you have a clear cause and effect relationship. In that case, you can go backwards and try to figure out what is the root cause for the effect. Now, in a complex world that's a bit different, whenever we have humans involved, we immediately come into a complex world. There it is basically impossible to go through and find all the causes and all the root causes in that case. Now, because it would mean you'd have to relive the life of everyone in their interaction as well, which you can't. So in that way, because it's impossible to do, we do a major shift by not trying even and say, okay, what do we want to have instead of. And of course we don't want to just fix things superficially. We build into the goal, what do we want to have. So the goal could be that something should never occur again, because that's most of the time, the reasons why we try to find a root cause so that we find the real source of all our problems. But then building that into the future picture makes it possible. And we do use retrospectives because we want to see what needs to be changed. Now, in retrospectives, normally you look back what didn't work well and then you try to find out what's new. Now what didn't work well. Means you want to have something instead, which is again, a future, a better future, a preferred future in solution focused speak and then we turn and we identify and define all this. So we have these two things all in the future rather than in the past.

[Host]

So if I understand both of you correctly, what we're talking about is a shift from accepting and working as if everything has a cause and effect into we don't always know the cause and effect relationship or chain, but we can always envision what we want and deliberately work towards that goal.

[Ralf Mierka]

Well summarized indeed.

[Host]

Now, of course, solution focused coaching is a much bigger thing. It has a lot of other things attached to it. For those of us who don't know what is the origin of solution focused coaching, give us a brief intro to the history of this approach, just so that we know a little bit of what are the mental models that come with this approach.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

Very, very Steve Deshazer and INSO Kimberg were two therapists who worked in family therapy in the 70s and 80s and 1970s, of course, in 1980s and they worked in Milwaukee in America where they had their institute, their BFTC pre Family therapy center where they worked with families and they had a one way mirror when they worked. So one of the therapists worked with the client and other therapists were sitting behind the one way mirror watching what happens. And they found out that there were some clients who were likely to give away the problem very quickly and go with the therapist into the, into the, in the. Into the better future, what you want to reach. And others were not able to let go the problems. But they started again and again and again to talk about the problem no matter what the therapist asked and they found it interesting. So I think many of the listeners here know exactly. It's where you have teams with the ones and the others in their teams, the ones that are very likely to go into the future and the others that say no, we have to fix the problem in the team, not in the technical world, in the communication, etc. And what they found out was that there were several attitudes and principles that helped getting rid of the problem and going into the world of searching for a solution. And they tried to use these principles and techniques and attitudes with those clients who first had problems with letting go of their problems and then they were it was easier for them to go into the world of solutions and to find them.

[Host]

I'm thinking how that might look like in, let's say a practical relationship within a working team, an engineering team. Right. So you talked to us, Veronika about where did it come from? Like this brief family therapy center. And some of the groups focused on the problem, wanted to discuss the problem, maybe dig deeper into the problem. Others wanted to just move on and kind of focus on the solution. How does this contrast manifest and how do you tackle it when it comes to engineering teams?

[Ralf Mierka]

So the thing is that we talk with those that want to stay more in the past, what they try to preserve and keep. I mean, one thing that we know from the solution focus things and also work of contractivists and so on is that change always happens anyway. We cannot prevent change. It's actually a hard job. So what we try to do then is to look where positive change happened before, what they can use from their past to bring into the future. And we correlated with those that already go into the future and we help to identify a common future both want to achieve. Now, that needs to be done with a lot of respect because it's pretty annoying that someone says you shouldn't talk about that. Yeah, so that's, you know, of course, what is it you want to add? What is it you want to warn us about? How might it look different if you know, and we try to move into the positive or into the desired future, into the preferred future so that we know where to go. The interesting thing with a lot of teams is most of the time they know they don't want to be there where they are, but they can't agree on where they want to go. And now if you imagine that a team is not aligned and where they want to go, they all go in different directions. Now imagine this. So you have a team that runs in all different directions. Now that's not helpful if we want to achieve something together. So we need to find a way to keep them together. And one thing that we know nowadays is from solution focus background research is that the solution focus approach is equally good as any other coaching approach in the sense of they have a similar number of people that fall back into old behaviors. However, that is done much quicker because the brief in the solution focus brings us quicker to positive working or possibly one solution.

[Host]

Like what do you mean by it happens quicker?

[Ralf Mierka]

So Veronica mentioned it's a brief therapy or it comes from brief therapy. Now, in solution focus, since we do not do a lot of problem analysis, instead we do future analysis, we save time. Now, some could think by saving this time, we're less helpful in the solution focus approach now. And there are studies that show this is not the case. Solution focus is equally helpful than any other Approach, but in a shorter period of time. That fits very well to the agile learning principles. We want to learn quick, fail fast, achieve something fast through a learning cycle. And that's. It's also one of the things that brought us together, me from the engineering background, Veronica from the coaching background, that we saw that these two could merge so well because they're both on similar principles of learning and approaching things through experimentation.

[Host]

These are all familiar words that I like to hear, right, like learning quickly, experimentation, trying out things. These all sound appealing, at least in my work. I try to apply those. In the book. You also talk about this very interesting concept, this not knowing position. I want to explore that a little bit more because for some people, especially those that are more analytically minded, it might be even difficult to imagine a future when they don't know what the problem is all about. So can you explain that shortly and maybe give an example of how you apply this not knowing position in coaching yourselves?

[Veronika Jungvirth]

If we see or hear something, it reminds us on something that we have already experienced earlier. So if someone comes to you, Vasco, and says, I have problem in my teams because there is one guy who is talking all the time and does not listen to the others, and so on and so on, I'm sure you have several stories in your mind where you say, oh yes, I know what you mean, I totally understand and have an idea how you can fix it, right? So the not knowing position wants to remind us that what the one guy is talking about is not the same story that I have in my mind. It's only a reminder. So what I have to offer for fixing the problem is something that worked in my story that is in my mind and does not necessarily work in the other person's story and problem. So.

[Host]

So what you're saying is if a team or a coach from another team comes to you, hey, this thing is happening in my team. We immediately think, oh, I've seen this in this other company where I worked at, so it must be the same problem. But what you're saying is that we shouldn't assume it's the same story. You called it story, right?

[Veronika Jungvirth]

Absolutely, absolutely. Instead, we should ask questions. We should ask, tell me more about the problem. How can I help you? Tell me more about your goal. Of course I see Ralph's face. I'm sorry, I made a mistake. Of course we do not ask them about more about the problem. We ask, what do you want to achieve? How can I help you? What do you wish from me? If you would get a good Tip from me a good idea how you can solve your problem. How would it help you? What difference would it make for you? All these questions we ask can help to clarify what the other person really needs or wants or how we can help each other more or less to get the problem fixed.

[Ralf Mierka]

So let me give you a story, a small one. I worked for a client that was in Switzerland and there was a guy that complained, gram is rubbish. And all this agile, we shouldn't do this, and so on and so on. And obviously it could have been that you get into a resistance position yourself, you know, how can he be so negative about all this change and so on. Instead I asked him, okay, so how would you like to have it differently? What do you see that we don't see? What is it you want to preserve? And this guy came up with loads of answers, positive answers, and we had a bit of back and forth and I said afterwards, you know what you described to me, you described a real good working Scrum team. And he was astonished because he was opposing Scrum. How could he just describe the perfect Scrum team? I said, see, the thing is, what's done here, that's not the way that should probably Scrum be. And the way you described it, that was far more the goal than everyone else seemed to imagine here. And he was then suddenly beaming and happy and so on. So finally someone understood him and was not saying, oh, you know, shut up and so on. And the funny thing with this particular guy, a few weeks later he became this grandmaster of the team because he was the most engaged and interested person of quite a few people that I met there.

[Host]

This is a very common story I've heard before. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

[Ralf Mierka]

Yeah, no, it's okay.

[Host]

Yeah, I was just going to say that we very often look at that, oh, Scrum will never work here as a resistance, a reaction to. And what you just described is that it often isn't a resistance or a reaction. It is the wanting of something better. And if we focus from the coaching side, if we focus on solutions, so solution focused coaching, we can harness that energy because that person has ideas. And as you said in that story, they may even want to take responsibility to get those ideas implemented.

[Ralf Mierka]

And to me, this is one of the stories not knowing, because I could have completely reacted differently now. And I've seen people that oppose Scrum many times before and solutions could have been from get rid of him in the team or do whatever, but then it was about listening, attentiveness, asking questions. We have so Many moments where we ask so what is it? And careful, not knowing does not mean that we play dumb. If someone asks us a straight question, what is one plus one? Then we wouldn't ask coaching question, we would say it's two. Because that is not about your mental model and my mental model. Unless you discuss with a mathematician and this is in group theory and we're just nevermind, you know. So 1 and 1 is not always 2. It could be also 1 and 0. Yeah, the binary systems, but that's more for fun, you know. Most of the time we know exactly what this straight question is about, but it's an opinion question. If it's a what should I do? Question, of course you know, we can always answer and I would do, but what you should do we have no idea because we cannot overlook or oversee all the possible outcomes that a hint or a tip could have on your life.

[Host]

That brings me to another question, which is another concept that you talk about in the book. This idea of everyone is an expert in their situation. So how does solution focused coaching bring that to life? That concept that everyone is an expert in their situation.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

These two concepts, the not knowing position, and everyone is expert for their own situation, these concepts fit together perfectly and they need each other. So the story that Ralph just told is exactly something that works here as well. Because if I think people resist change, people don't want to do scrum because they don't understand, etc. Etc. Then I follow my own mind and not the concept of everyone is expert. If I would follow the concept everyone is expert for their own situation, I would ask questions. Questions like those Ralph mentioned earlier. What do you see what we don't see yet? What want you to. What did you say? What do you want to achieve? Right, to prevent was the word I was looking for, etc. So if we accept that everyone is an expert for their own situation, it cannot be that I know better what you need than you yourself. I think every one of us would agree to that. Nobody knows better what I need than myself. And if anyone tries to tell me they know better what I need, I can get a bit grumpy, of course, and I think I have the right to be grumpy in that situation. So this is something of respect and of cooperation to accept that everyone knows themselves better than I do. If there is something like I think resistant or there is someone argumenting against my ideas, then it's always a good idea to ask questions, to be interested in what is on their people mind.

[Ralf Mierka]

So one thing for example, when I come and I'm asked as an agile coach to support a team, very often it starts kind of by participating in the daily standup. Now, agile coaches see daily standups and they are such a huge variety. Some run longer than 15 minutes, some run less than seven minutes. And you think some, everyone says the three questions and answers to it. In some standups, hardly anyone says something, and so on and so on. So you have a multitude of different ways of doing it. Now, obviously as an agile coach, you couldn't come in and say this is the right way to do it. No. So one thing I do often is after stand up, I ask the team, on a scale of 0 to 5 with your fingers behind your back, rate me how useful was the stand up today to you and the team? And the people then rated and say two, three or whatever number. And then I asked, so what went well today in the stand up that you give it the number of fingers that you showed for everyone so they learn what they think was helpful in the stand up. And then the second round I ask, and suppose tomorrow you would give it one finger more. What would be different? And then the team tells me what they do different. And whatever comes is, is the answer that this team needs because they are expert. Now if it runs longer than 15 minutes and they say we need 17 in this team because we are 13 team members, then maybe that might be the right thing to do. Yeah. And if they say we need to talk more about this and less about the other stuff, that's good too. What I found is that about three times I asked this question, three days, and they adjust their standard rather quickly so it fits to their needs because they're expert of their situation.

[Host]

So one of the things that I hear you say when you're describing everyone being an expert in their situation is also this concept that they need to do the changes in the end, right? They need to make it happen. And if we go in and say we are the experts, then of course they're not motivated to and they might not even know how. But if we start from what they already think is working and thinking things they would like to try, then they will for sure change it because it's them saying, hey, I would like to try this. So it's almost like, I don't know, like speeding up the change process, right?

[Ralf Mierka]

Yeah, absolutely. And the thing, what we observe very often is agile coaches are kind of an energy source for some change because they give so much. But when the agile coaches leave, this energy is gone. And then the company falls back into old behavior. I mean, some change sticks, some new change emerges, but very often without the agile coach, the change is going back, slides back. And I think this can be prevented by not being the source of change energy. We are guidance, we're helpers, but we shouldn't take the burden and we shouldn't take the responsibility for the change in the way that we lead it all the time by pulling the wagon.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

I think people are not ready to change anything if they have the feeling that another person says, you're doing wrong all the time. Because then I am resistant, of course, because how does this guy know what I'm doing right or wrong? All my life here in this company, and I think it's not so much about transformating or changing as such. It's more about adjusting in small steps. It's more about finding out what is already good, what can we do as we do it already. And there are always many, many things that are already good. I'm very sure that is so. And there are always some small little things that we can adjust to go a bit further. And people know what they can adjust to get further into the right direction.

[Host]

Or at least they have an idea of what they want to adjust. Right. It may or may not work, but once they have an idea, allowing them to express that idea in practice will also keep them motivated. And one of the things that I have found in my own experience is that when people want to change something themselves, they own up when it doesn't work. But if we tell people what to change and then it doesn't work, then I'll say, oh, it's your fault.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

Of course.

[Ralf Mierka]

That's exactly part of this. Everyone is expert of their own situation.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

And you know what they are. Right?

[Host]

Of course. Right. That's the tragedy and of course also the simple beauty of how things work in in the world of humans. Right. I do want to ask you two other questions and I realize we're running out of time here, so let's start with the miracle question first. Let's give people an understanding of what is this concept? Maybe you can introduce where this miracle question concept in solution focused coaching came from.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

Yes, I can. It is a question that Insoo Kimberg came up with when one of her clients came to the therapy lesson a session. And Insoo asked, how can I help you? And the client answered, oh, I can be only helped by a miracle. Nothing else than a miracle can help. And Insoo used the word of her client, miracle, and formulated the next question. By using this miracle. And she said, imagine we are working good together here and you go home afterwards and doing whatever you have to do in the afternoon and you come home in the evening and you do your rituals you do every day in the evenings. And today you go to bed very early and you sleep really, really good because you had an exhausting day somehow. And you sleep so well that you do not recognize that there is happening a miracle during the night that solves all the problems you came here with when you wake up the next morning. Tomorrow, what would be a very small first sign sign that tells you that there must have been a miracle during the night. So this is the miracle question itself and it needs many, many other questions. What? How would you react on the miracle? And who else would recognize that there has been a miracle during the night? And how would these people react? And so on and so on and so on. So tell me about the day after the miracle. So if you use the miracle question, it needs a bit of time so people can go with you into the world of the miracle, into the world of better, into the world of having already reached the goal and to find out what is different there in this world. What exactly do we want to achieve?

[Ralf Mierka]

It wasn't exactly the miracle question, but I remember a situation. Team coaching actually was scrum training together with the team coaching part. And the team, they had to do a software product and there was a fair coming up and they already thought, we're never going to deliver anything to the fair, we can't show anything. I said to them, suppose for some reason, whatever happens, I don't know, but for some reasons you are able to show something at this fair. I know it's a bit far fetched, but just go with me, you can't show something at this fair. And then I left the break and I said, so what could be a very small thing you could show at the fair and what else? And what else? So I used a similar concept and a miracle question to bring them into the situation that they could imagine to show their software to fair. And we spent there probably half an hour or longer and we build up on ideas they had and said, and at the end I said, okay, now that was all in a hypothetical world, so let's bring it back to reality. What do you think of all that we worked on, you are able to show at the fair? There was this one guy, the architect, he said, yeah, in reality we can't show anything. And I was like, oh no. So we were saying, but then again, the rest of the team chipped in and said, no, no, hang on. Of all the ideas we can do this, this and this. And they convinced their architect that it is possible and they can show something at their fair. And that was one of those really brilliant moments of magic. Kind of a miracle.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because people are motivated and they are energized by thinking of what could be. And then sometimes, maybe not all the time, but sometimes they can actually put that into practice. Which then leads me to the next question. Very often in Agile and people who've studied Lean or tried to practice Lean software development were very often trained to fix things, fix problems. So how do you think we can help Scrum Masters step out of this instinct to fix and instead step into the role of the person who holds space for solutions to emerge?

[Veronika Jungvirth]

I think one sentence we use very often in our trainings is let the them work. Don't work by yourself on the problems of others, otherwise you would get headaches sometimes maybe. So what you need is trust that everyone is expert in their own situation. What you need is have questions ready whenever you think you know what others need and stay in the not knowing position and practice your questioning skills. I think if you have good questioning skills, it's easier for you to fix a certain thing named the room where other people can fix their problems themselves.

[Ralf Mierka]

I also think it is a matter of your personal goal and you need to, as grandmaster and leader, you need to think about what are my goals at the moment? Do I want to help the teams to develop further so they can fix the issues themselves or do I want to be a fixer, someone that gets pride because you achieved something yourself now, if you like this, and we are trained from school onwards to do this, you know, we give answers, we fix things, we help and so on by really getting our hands dirty? Of course, that's one part of the job. And then find the pocket where you can do this.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

Yeah, and it's a hard one because then you ask yourself, am I in the right role now? How much fixing do I want to do and how much room giving roomkeeping do I want to do for others? And what does the role need I'm in.

[Ralf Mierka]

And then Scrum Masters, to me, they are often internal in a company. They are part of the company system now for some of the problems, I think it's valid that they fix it and do it because the team is building software at the same time. So you know, it's, it's a balance and you need to decide when to do the one or the other as agile coaches be even more careful about doing this because otherwise you get sucked into the system far too quickly. Because in, in my world, an agile coach is there to support the organization to grow so that the agile coach can leave at some stage and, and move on.

[Host]

And I guess you meant it implicitly. But everything that you said about scrum masters and agile coaches is also applicable to leaders. A leader cannot grow themselves if they need to fix everything for the team. I mean they can make the team grow by fixing whatever is wrong for the team, but then they can't grow themselves. And very often as leaders we need to recognize that in order for the team to grow, I need to grow too. Otherwise I'm just keeping the team where they are because they are being limited by my ability to fix whatever they are dealing with. But if I help the teams take ownership and responsibility for figuring out where they want to go next and then I support them, then I can actually get a lot more done, right?

[Ralf Mierka]

Absolutely. I mean everyone grows continuously anyway. So we similar to we can't prevent change, we can't prevent growth because we learn every day. But then to look in which pockets do I want to learn more, you know, and what, as you said, what is my aim in my style of leadership? That's something to be clear about and then set according actions.

[Host]

I have one, one last question. You're here as solution focused coaching practitioners, so if you would have to give our listeners a question that they could take into the next standup or the next retro to bring more that solution focused thinking and acting to their work, what could be. One question. Let's start with Veronika.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

Okay, one question that I would add is what do we want to achieve? What are we here for? What we want to get? What would you want to achieve? What is our goal and why? So I think this is one question. I would add going out of the problem zone, going into the goal zone and talk about this and analyze the goal we want to achieve together. And you Ralph?

[Ralf Mierka]

There are still two questions in my mind. One is what works already? What can we take on our journey? What's in our package that we can build up on? So for example, the scale question on a scale of 0 to 10 where 10 means we achieved our goal and 0 is the opposite. Where do we stand at the moment and how come we are already at the value that we are instead of zero? So we can build up on that and then at the end of any decision making meeting, let it be a retro A planning meeting, even reviews is the confidence scale question on a scale of 0 to 10, where 10 means you're totally confident that we will do what we decided to do and zero is the opposite. How confident are you? Maybe add the question on and what would make you more confident? We found that changes so much at the end because people can give last uncertainties and you can address the little things towards the end and that leads to a higher possibility of achieving the outcome.

[Host]

Those are great questions to spark conversations and maybe just having that also in the coffee break, right? Like, huh, I wonder what it would look like if we had solved that problem. Right. I really like that. Right. Because in a coffee break you're not trying to perform like there's no boss around. You're just there, relaxed as a human being and we can free our minds and start thinking about what a better world would look like. So for both of you and for your company, if people want to find out more about you and the work that you've been doing, where can they go?

[Ralf Mierka]

I mean, in the very first instance, they can have a look at our book, Solution Focused Coaching for Agile Teams, a guide to collaborative leadership. That's where they can read a lot about what we, what we try to say. And then we have the company website, Sindvohl Minos Fuehren Ponkom in German with the UE umlaut, where you see the portfolio of what we offer. Actually, we're in the process of redoing the website, so that will be an interesting project and yeah, and come to Vienna or also to the HR Coach Camp Austria, which is in German only, so maybe not as much for your.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

Listeners and of course get in touch. You find us on LinkedIn, on Xing and other platforms and we are happy to get in contact and yeah, have.

[Ralf Mierka]

A chat and if you're very much interested in Solution focus, not just in the application to Agile and so on, but general solution focus. There is the Solution Focused World Conference coming up in Belgium and you will see us there as well.

[Host]

All right, and we'll put the link to all of those in the show notes everybody, so make sure you check it out. We do have a lot of German speakers listening to the show, so I'm sure there's a lot of people who will get in touch and talk to you and maybe ask a few more follow up questions. This episode only starts the conversation, right? The conversation needs to continue. Thank you very much, Veronika Ralf, for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[Ralf Mierka]

Thank you very much, Vasco.

[Veronika Jungvirth]

Thank you, Vasco.

[Vasco]

All right, I hope you liked this episode, but before you hit next episode, here's the deal. This podcast is powered by people like you, the members who wanted more than just inspiration. They wanted real tools and real connection to people who are practicing agile. Every day we're talking access to over 700 hours of agile gold, CTO level strategy talks, Summit keynotes, live workshops, E courses, Deep Dive interviews, books, and if you're into no estimates, we got pioneers of no estimates in those Deep Dive interviews as well. Agile, Business Intelligence, creating product visions, coaching your product owner courses, you name it. You'll get invites to monthly live Q&As with agile pioneers and practitioners, plus a private Slack community which is free of all of that AI slop you see everywhere. And of course, without the flame wars. It's a community of practitioners that want to learn and thrive together. It's the best place to connect with community and learn together. So if this podcast has helped you before, imagine what you will get from this podcast membership. So head on over to scrummastertoolbox.org and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the [e-mail] membership because listening is great, it's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community. Slack.

[Host]

We really hope you liked our show. And if you did, why not rate this podcast on Stitcher or itunes? Share this podcast and let other Scrum masters know about this valuable resource for their work. Remember that sharing is caring.