Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast

BONUS: The Evolution of Agile – From Project Management to Adaptive Intelligence | Mario Aiello

Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Mario Aiello
Date: October 18, 2025

Overview

This bonus episode explores the evolution of Agile practices through the firsthand experiences of Mario Aiello, a seasoned veteran whose career spans from early project management at Sun Microsystems to modern adaptive intelligence and Agile coaching. Mario shares stories from his decades of work in VUCA environments, highlighting the progression from early iterative approaches to the pitfalls of methodology commercialization, and ultimately advocates for a context-driven, value-and-principles-based approach to Agile.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Days: Moving from Project Management to Iterative Approaches

• Mario’s Origins:
  • Started in traditional project management at Sun Microsystems around 1999-2001.
  • Frustrations with “pushing madness,” fear of change, and the hero culture around project success.
  • Influenced by early exposure to Extreme Programming (XP) and iterative concepts in Silicon Valley.
• First "Agile" Steps:
  • Mario:

    "I called it a simple agile... work on the most important thing, right? Work on one thing at a time, most important first and finish it and then move on to the next one and get feedback." ([03:26])

  • Emphasis on basic feedback loops, prioritization, and teamwork—before "Agile" was a common term.
  • Tried to "agilize" Prince2 by renaming "stages" as "iterations" and making them as short as possible. ([04:15])

2. Early Skepticism and the Shift Away from Traditional Project Management

• Project Management Shortcomings:
  • Vasco and Mario share skepticism of early Agile, rooted in years of project management.
  • Mario on traditional PM:

    "I became a wishful liar...manipulate reports...if they were bullshit, basically. I knew it was bullshit, I was giving bullshit." ([05:51])

  • Embraced change as an alternative to unsustainable, stressful PM environments.

3. Agile's Trajectory: From Values to Methodology Commercialization

• Early Agile Movement:
  • Mario credits the Agile Manifesto for developers "speaking from the heart" and putting "the truth right in front of you". ([07:58])
• Downsides of Commercialization and Methodology Craze:
  • Shift from core values/principles to mechanisms and metrics.
  • Mario:

    "The general focus drifted...from values and principles...to mechanisms and metrics." ([08:20])

• Values & Principles vs. Metrics & Mechanisms:
  • Advocates for using values as a guide ("gap analysis" between current and desired state), not as a prescribed process.
  • Mario:

    "It's not a methodology, that is not metrics...you're trying to make sense of what those new ways of working mean..." ([10:18])

4. Making Agile Contextual and Purposeful

• Avoiding Blind Fidelity to Frameworks:
  • Frameworks (Scrum, XP, SAFe, LeSS, Kanban) are not "sacrosanct".
  • Mario:

    "The methodologies are not sacrosanct...you can use it the way you want." ([13:05])

  • Promotes adaptation and sensemaking over rigid adherence.
• Agile as a Journey, Not a Noun:
  • Criticism of "being Agile" vs. "achieving agility." ([11:50])
  • Emphasis on fitness for purpose, context, practice, and improvement.
  • Mario:

    "If there's a why, why do I want Agile? ...what's my context?" ([15:04])

5. Adaptive Intelligence and Learning from Failure

• Adaptive Intelligence:
  • Approach is "probe, learn, adapt": experiment, observe outcomes, iterate ("plan, do, inspect"). ([15:21])
  • Encourages creating custom approaches rather than off-the-shelf methodologies.
• Learning from Failure:
  • Mario has "failed more often than I've won" ([16:55]).
  • Tales of trying and failing to introduce Agile in command-and-control cultures.
  • Lessons: Context is paramount; culture must be acknowledged, if not changed; start where people are.
• Systems Thinking:

  • Realized the importance of addressing the entire delivery system—"idea to cash" ([23:30]).

  • Reorganized workspaces and teams around value streams, not silos.

    "Everybody in that value stream, in that subsystem, if you want, is responsible for value in different ways in different contexts." ([23:33])

6. Evolving as an Agile Coach

• Coach, Not Command:
  • Mario draws from sports coaching:

    "What you do when you coach is basically understand … where they're going, and try to help them make sense..." ([27:13])

  • Coaching is about probing context, facilitating micro-changes, and quick feedback loops rather than teaching prescriptive process.

• Adaptive, Not Prescriptive:

  "Agile for me is not prescriptive...Agile is adaptive." ([31:37])

7. Debate on Certification

• Certifications: Pros & Cons
  • Mario admits to holding certifications, but mostly used them for networking and as a probe into methodologies ([32:06]).
  • Critiques the value of certifications that don't require real-world practice:

    "How many times have you burned your fingers? ...Because that teaches you." ([37:31])

  • Only once experienced a certification process (Kanban, with David Anderson) that involved practical demonstration and defense ([34:17]).
  • Worries about the prevalence of superficial credentialing ("badges on LinkedIn") over demonstrated competence.
  • Suggests a minimum threshold of real experience (e.g., 200-300 sprints) before certification has value.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Agile and Project Management Culture:

  “I became a wishful liar...manipulate reports...if they were bullshit, basically. I knew it was bullshit, I was giving bullshit.”
  —Mario Aiello ([05:51])

• On Methodology Commercialization:

  "The general focus drifted...from values and principles...to mechanisms and metrics."
  —Mario Aiello ([08:20])

• On Adapting, Not Prescribing:

  “The methodologies are not sacrosanct...you can use it the way you want.”
  —Mario Aiello ([13:05])

• On Learning from Failure:

  "I failed more often than I’ve won."
  —Mario Aiello ([16:55])

• On the Systemic View:

  “Everybody in that value stream, in that subsystem, if you want, is responsible for value in different ways in different contexts.”
  —Mario Aiello ([23:33])

• On Certificates and Learning:

  “How many times have you burned your fingers? ...Because that teaches you.”
  —Mario Aiello ([37:31]) “How can you give somebody about a certification and it [they have] never had done a sprint in his life?”
  —Mario Aiello ([38:35])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Origin Story & Early Agile ([01:27]–[05:02])
• Skepticism & Failures of Project Management ([05:02]–[06:42])
• Agile’s Journey – Values vs. Commercialization ([07:22]–[11:01])
• Principles & Values vs. Practices & Metrics ([09:18]–[12:37])
• Agile as Contextual and Adaptive ([14:58]–[16:54])
• Failures & Learning in Practice ([16:54]–[21:02])
• Systems Thinking & Organizational Change ([21:02]–[26:26])
• Personal Evolution as a Coach ([26:26]–[31:40])
• Certification Debate ([31:40]–[39:40])

Further Information

• Mario Aiello on LinkedIn: Mario Aiello
• Mario's Blog: Agile Ways
• Substack: Adaptive Ways (link in show notes)

Takeaways

• Beware of Processes Becoming Dogma: Agile’s roots are in values and responding to change, not rigid frameworks.
• Context is King: Every organization, team, and environment requires its own adaptation of Agile principles.
• Certifications Matter Less Than Lived Experience: Real transformation comes from continuous learning, failure, and adaptation—not just badges.
• Agile as Adaptive Intelligence: Probe, learn, adapt. Stay focused on outcomes and improvement, not mere compliance.

For more on Mario’s work and adaptive intelligence, check the show notes for links to his resources.