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Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
BONUS Toyota's Real Secret Isn't the Tools — It's the Attitude Towards Learning That Changes Everything With Katie Anderson
00:34:02
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- [00:02]
A
Hello, everyone. Quick heads up before we start today's episode. The Global Agile Summit is happening on May 4th. Yes, May 4th. And even with a big blowout Star wars party, you have to join. It will be online and it's like always free to attend. We have four tracks this year that I'm really excited about and I think you will too. Stick around to the end of the episode to know what they are. If you want to check it out already now you can check it out at bit ly globalagile 26. That's the numerals 2 and 6 at the end. So one more time, that's bit ly globalagile 2, 6, all one word, all lowercase. And 2 and 6 are the numerals 2 and 6. So stick around till the end of the episode and I'll tell you what's in store. But for now, on to today's episode. Hello, everybody. Welcome to a bonus episode of Agile in construction or in industry. Manufacturing industry, that is, or in so many other places. Today with us we have Katie Anderson. Hey, Katie, welcome to the show.
- [01:21]
B
Thanks, Vasco. Looking forward to the conversation.
- [01:23]
A
Absolutely. So Katie joins us to explore why the real secret behind Toyota's success isn't the tools that we all talk about. It's the unwavering commitment to learning. Discover in today's episode how leaders can escape the doer trap. We'll talk more about that in a minute. Break the telling habit and build cultures where reflection, curiosity and capability drive sustainable results, stronger people and extraordinary organizational performance. So now to our guest, Katie. Katie, you've said in your book the only secret to Toyota is its attitude towards learning. It's not about the tools. Okay, tell us, what does that mindset look like in practice?
- [02:17]
B
Well, first let me back up, even say how I came to have that quote in the first place. So I moved to Japan over 11 years ago, was a continuous improvement operational excellence practitioner and then consultant. And I had the great privilege to get to know Toyota leader Asao Yoshino. He'd worked at Toyota for 40 years. And I, like probably most of your listeners are curious on like what drives Toyota's success? Like we're all trying to emulate what Toyota's done, you know, from a process side, from a result side, from a culture side. And so my, I was talking with him many times, what was the secret? Why is Toyota so successful? And he kept saying, there's no secret, there's no secret. And then one day he did say to me earlier in our conversation and I had my Pen out. I was just scribbling our notes away. And this is before I even knew I was going to write a book. I was literally just going and spending time with this Toyota leader because he kept inviting me down and as you do jump on the Shinkansen and from Tokyo to Nagoya and take advantage of that. But he said the only secret of Toyota is its attitude towards learning. And it was kind of an offhand comment. He was trying to understand why I kept driving to this question, like what's going on? What's going on? And his follow up line was really powerful too. He said something like this is in the book Learning to lead, leading to learn. We don't even notice and we take it for granted. And I think what's so how this relates to what we're all trying to do in organizations is it's so easy to take or it's not easy, it's easier to take the tools, try and apply them and improve process. And that's great, we totally should be doing that. But we get stuck in this repeat of like fixing the same problem year after year or it's very project based and not leading to sort of organizational transformation and a new way that we're doing work. And the secret sauce is really the fundamental part which is the quality of people development. And that goes along with the quality of how we're developing people to learn, contribute to problem solve, to innovate. It's that system which underlies the system of process improvement and operational excellence where the tools come in that lead to then the results. And so we tend to miss that more, that less visible layer. And so so much of how agile and lean and DevOps kind of brought over, we tend to focus on the tools more and which are great, we totally need the tools, but without the attitude towards learning that underlie them, they're only not going to so far, it's not going to sustain.
- [04:48]
A
So in the agile community we have this. Well, which is an actual anthropological observation. We often talk about this cargo cult, right? Like the idea that these islands in the Pacific they saw the Americans come in during the second World War and there was prosperity and new things when the Americans were there. And then the Americans left and then they started building planes out of old trees and mimicking the landing strips, imagining that everything would come with it. And I think that a little bit this fetish with tools is a little bit like cargo culting. Toyota, I remember when the machine that changed the world came out and the American auto industry was all into lean and they were all trying to get these tools, literally the tools from Toyota and apply them in their own factories. And of course that was a misunderstanding because the tools are only the visible output of that culture that is underneath. Right. So how do you help today, Katie? How do you help leaders shift their organization from this cargo cult tool obsession to more like a learning driven transformation?
- [06:06]
B
Yeah, and I actually talked with Jim Womack, who was one of the authors of the Machine that Changed the World on my podcast, Chain of Learning last year. So some of your listeners might want to go over and listen to him talk about that. It's a two part episode, I forget the exact number, but just Google Chain of Learning, Jim Womack and we talked about why has Lean failed. And that is exactly one of the failure points that he talked about too, as that, you know, we did end up focusing more on the tools and not as much on the people development, but he also talked about some other greater systemic things too. So really interesting. But I, you know, I see that we, how do I, like how do we, how do we overcome that? And, and that's sort of part of my mission is how do we get back to the human side of it, you know, in the learning and the aspects too. Like, so we need the tools, but if we have just a few handful of experts come in applying the tools, doing the improvement work, things are not going to sustain because we haven't created organizational capability or the systems to sustain them. And that's really, really, really critical too. So if we can be on constant whack a mole with process improvement, that's fine, but not really fine. I mean, we're just going to be in this vicious cycle of doing more projects, doing, doing, doing, rather than actually trul the organizational culture where people have tools and the knowledge and the authority to actually apply them as well. And so I've been talking a lot. I'm actually in process of writing my next book, which is answering some of that question, which. So my first book, Learning to Lead, Leading to Learn, created the picture of how did Toyota create its culture, the leadership behaviors, mindset, all of that from a real life experience. So that's sort of the North Star. But it's like I work with organizations and leaders around the world, like, okay, so how do we do that? And to me it really comes down to how do we move from more of command based leadership to influence based leadership and how do we create the systems that enable all of that learning to happen. And of course we need to pair that with our tools and the technical and functional expertise we've developed. So it's not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but I feel like we've underdeveloped those people. Influence system skills to really create, create the sustainable organizational change. And so it's moving from leader as the person with all the answers to the leader as enabler, problem solving and application of the tools the leader still needs to do. What I talk about in the book, which there's three key roles of a leader, a functional leader, an operational leader, which is to set the direction and develop yourself. So we need to have clarity on where we need to go, what are those goals that we need to achieve. But then it's not about the leader doing it all, it's about how do we create the systems and the capability within your people to move towards that. And that requires all of us to sort of change and get out of what I call the doer trap, which I've already teed me up for. So the combination of breaking the telling habit and getting out of the doer trap is the most fundamental shift that whether you're in a functional leadership role or a change practitioner role as well, we have to figure out how do we still be an expert with technical knowledge, but enable capability across the organization.
- [09:19]
A
So before we go any further, mentioned the three responsibilities of the operational leader, but we didn't hear all of them because the connection cut a little bit. Can you repeat that again?
- [09:30]
B
Yes. So the key role of a leader, and I call this leading to learn. So if we want to create this learning organization that Toyota is all about, it's simple. And this came out of an offhand comment that Mr. Yoshino made. Even before I'd moved to Japan and started spending time with him, he was talking on stage with John Shook about their role together as leader and direct a report. And it's about leaders need to set the direction. So like what's the target or the goal that needs to be achieved? Two, provide support. So create the capability and the conditions for people to be successful. So system structures, behaviors, and three, develop yourself. So set direction, provide support, develop yourself. Because we have to get out of this habit of control, of being the leader who's doing it all to shift to more of enabling and not always always telling your answer, but holding the space for others to develop their answer as well. And so those are the big shifts that we really have to be making. And it's sort of simple in concept, but really quite challenging. That ties back to the only secret the Toyota's attitude towards Learning. And of course they want the results, but it's that underlying people development and learning structure that gets them there.
- [10:46]
A
So one of the things that you also talk about is this breaking the telling habit. Would you say that the doer trap and breaking the telling habit are kind of two sides of the same coin? Because you also talk about moving from providing answers to more developing thinking. And this is also very interesting for me because we've interviewed David Marquette here on the show as well, and that's one of his really strong points, right? Like he calls it intent leadership is this idea that the person you're leading knows what needs to be done. Your role is just to validate that there's no gaps or blind spots or whatever and ask questions if you feel there are, because you might still not be right about that. Is that what you mean with the breaking the telling habit?
- [11:38]
B
Absolutely. And Marquette's, you know, that's intent based leadership is 100% aligned with this concept of set direction, provide support and develop yourself. So it's leading to learn mindset. So it is regardless of industry. Right. That's what good leadership is about. Where do we need to go and the conditions to enable people to get there. And you know, the doer trap is something I've been talking about more recently. And it plus break the telling habit are very linked. So break the telling habit is something I noticed in myself. And that, you know, it's. So we're used to being the one with all the answers, like the great ideas, we want to jump in, we want to help people solve a problem or fix thing, or we're used to being the one, you know, the. The one who comes in. And so the telling habits, when we're giving our answer instead of holding space for someone else to develop their answer or develop their capabilities, really, when we're telling our ideas, giving our suggestions, interrupting that sort of that interaction. And it is directly tied to what I call the doer trap as well. And that's when we're stepping in and doing things or owning things that aren't ours to own. So I have some different archetypes of that. Like the fire, you know, the. Sorry, the hero who's like the, you know, the firefighter, the one who comes in and saves the day, you know, we're jumping from fire to fire and it kind of feels good. The rescuer. And this is where a lot of the telling habit comes in as well. The rescuer doesn't like to see people struggle. And so you give them your ideas or suggestions really soon. And don't give them the space to struggle just a little bit to come up with their own ideas. And there's the magician working behind the scenes and pretending like you're not actually doing the work, but you're really shaping it without other people's input. And then the pair of hands, like, you're just jumping in and like getting it done because it feels easier or it's too. You don't have enough time to like, tell people, just got to jump in and do it.
- [13:32]
A
I'll just do it.
- [13:34]
B
Yeah, yeah, I'll just do it. It feels so much easier. Right. And so that could show up as the telling habit, but it's really just. I'm going to jump in and just do it. I don't have time to show you, or it's not getting done. And I'm not going to deal with this management issue. I'm just going to just do it myself. And then the surrogate le, which is this is more for a, you know, more of a. The, the practitioner type of role, like the person who should truly be owning and being the. The team or the work or the executive either isn't, you know, for whatever reason, isn't bought in or isn't showing up. And so you play that role, but you're not. It's not actually yours to own. And then so when you move on to another project or another department, it sort of fades away. So they're totally related. But one the break the telling habits, you coming in and giving all your ideas suggestions and sort of taking over that responsibility. And then the doer trap is actually taking on the ownership of things that are not yours to truly own. So there's different manifestations of that.
- [14:27]
A
The cool thing about these two concepts, the doer trap and breaking the telling habit, is the contrast to what you emphasize, which is that the true source of sustainable competitive advantage is learning. Right? Yes. And this is, for me, one of the critical insights is this idea that. But we've always been thinking that if we just knew what to do, we would get it done and everything would be fine. But what we are discovering, and I'm sure in many other industries, but for sure in the software industry, is that actually, as the complexity of the tasks increases, what we need to do is to set direction and enable people to find the way there. Because the complexity of the task is far beyond what I would call a single brain could fathom. And we need to start harnessing the power of what I call the hive mind. Right. Like the brain the collective brain of the team and ultimately the organization. What do you think about that?
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B
Oh, for sure. I mean the, you know, the thing is I always make the analogy of like, you know, if my kids ask me the answer to their math problem, there really is just one right answer to the math problem. But I'm still like skipping out on their opportunity to learn. They're going to keep coming back to me and asking. I'm not developing the capability. Things are even more extreme in our complex work environments where there isn't just one right answer, there's not a clear path forward. And we really need to be setting up these experiments and experiments fundamentally based on an attitude towards learning. Right. And we're going to. What's our hypothesis? Let's test something. Let's try it. And we need to learn from the failure. We need to expect failure. We don't want catastrophic failure. We want these micro failures. Right. And how are we learning our way forward through the failures towards success? And that is really that attitude towards learning that plan, do study, adjust, cycle, that's just like on constant motion. And how do we grab the best thinking of all the team members on how to do that? So it's not just one person coming and saying this is the answer, but how collectively are we building upon both the human intellect and also now the AI intellect collaboratively to get to the best next answer, the best next solution?
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A
Because in the end, the AI intellect is just the collective intellect of the human race as documented in text. So it's not going to be very different.
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B
Yeah, yeah, right.
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A
And another concept that, I mean, it's a concept that I've always liked since I read it about in the book by Jeffrey Leiker, the Toyota Way, is this idea that organizations are not machines, which is a very common pattern of thinking that many leaders have in their mind. Right. Like that you just need to put the right processes and then people will do the right thing. But that, that organizations are actually this living entities. Jeffrey Leiker calls it a socio technical system, meaning that it's not only the technical parts that can be analyzed by decomposition or reductionist thinking and then made better, but you also have the social part, so the interaction of the people and how they come together and then generate something more powerful. And how do you tackle that aspect when you talk to leaders? Because especially in industries that are much more hardware focused and I mean I see this a lot also in the software industry, but how do you get them to understand that this learning aspect is not just about learning? What is the Best process. It's about learning how everything works better together. Like this experimental thinking that you were just talking about is not just related to the practices or techniques or processes. It's also about the right people in the right place at the right time. And that's a dynamic problem for us to solve in an organization.
- [18:26]
B
Yes, 100%. And I love this phrase socio technical and I use it often as well. So we have like the technical problems, opportunities, tools to use to like you know, on, on that, on that, you know, truly that technical side, but the social element in organizations and hopefully for a long time that include human beings. Right. And so there are, you know, there's the formal org structure and there's the informal influence structure. Right. How things actually get done. There are the, you know, the ways of like human beings can actually block the way things get done if they're not really bought in or understand why, you know, what's important for them or for their team. And so being able to navigate these human dynamics and bring people along collectively towards a shared goal is, is so important for leaders. Again, this is that difference between control based leadership and influence based leadership. Yeah, you can do like say we're doing this and you must and you might get some compliance but you're really not going to get the best out of your people. And it's through bringing them along through these influence, through these human, the social skills side that will really allow us to pair then those technical interventions and tools together to have the best outcome.
- [19:46]
A
Yeah. And for me, what has been very hard to convey, I mean I just had a conversation on Substack last week about this, what's been very hard to convey is this idea that you can't make a team better by just adding better processes and also better from whose perspective? Because a team is like a prism, it has different facets, it doesn't look the same from different people's point of view. And also it has a collective behavior or systemic behavior which cannot be understood by the analysis of the parts. So whenever we work on the process, we're always by definition always sub optimizing if we don't take into account how the whole system works. So how do you get leaders to step out from this idea that it's the technique or the process and start to think about how does the system above the techniques that and the processes behave?
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B
Well, I think that's one of our really important roles as change leaders is how do we help leaders see things from different perspectives and actually see that whole system. It's Very easy to get sort of tunnel vision focused on a specific process. But like, we need to look even more broadly at, you know, the whole system. What are the reward structures in our organization that are driving behavior? You know, how are, you know, what's our people development? Like, what are the skills that people actually have to function within that system? You know, what all of these elements. So the more we can help leaders understand what problem they're really trying to solve in the influence that other factors have that's not directly the process or the work function. So what are the real outcomes we need for the organization? And then sort of expanding the lens of how we look at and define what the problem is in the organization and the factors that influence it. So it's like, how can you, and I'm speaking to listeners, how can you have a broader sense of system lens then make visible those system influences to the leaders that you're working with? Because sometimes it's so easy when you're responsible for certain results, to get that myopic focus in a certain area. So how can you help widen that lens of what they're seeing?
- [22:01]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So very often my answer to that question would be, okay, we can't start with the leader, right? Like, we have to start with ourselves. If we can't see the systemic consequences of process choices, then we can't help others see it either, 100%.
- [22:18]
B
So that goes back to what are our skills? What are our influence in social system thinking skills that then we can leverage? Even if you don't own the outcome, your job is an influencer as a change leader to help the leaders you work with see things. So again, the develop yourself aspect of still applies to all of us listening. Everything starts with us and our ability and then our ability to shape and influence change whether or not we own it. And there's so many other factors on whether or not it's successful, but it's like, what can you do and how can you keep growing your skills? And that's really the whole purpose of the book that I'm writing right now is like, how do you develop these skills? And how do you create more visibility for yourself on the places that you could potentially be growing to then pair with your technical skills to really, really create these sustainable organizations, get results through learning in people.
- [23:12]
A
Okay, now I want to focus on something that definitely for our listeners will be a very familiar concept, which is retrospectives or as they call it in Toyota, Hansei, or reflection. And that's very often overlooked in modern organizations, even in Software where retrospective should be common practice by now, thanks to Agile by the way. How can leaders learn about the power of reflection and treat it as a disciplined practice rather than a luxury?
- [23:48]
B
Right. Well, it's spot on what you said. And the word hansei is a Japanese word that means reflection or actually self reflection. So it really comes from the deep self reflection of what happened, what did I do and what happened as a result of that. My experience in both working internally in complex organizations and helping leaders is that we tend to think of like a, any events of retrospective or you know, a postmortem. It's like it's, it's sort of a check the box kind of thing. And we're like, oh, what worked? What didn't work? Okay, let's move on. It's at a very surface level. Hansei is something much deeper. It goes into like that this attitude towards learning of like what did we expect to happen? You know, what were our assumptions under that? What were our beliefs? What were the behaviors that drove this? It is much deeper and much more, you know, I guess getting to that true root cause rather than sort of this check the box. Oh, what did we like, what we didn't like, wouldn't move on. And we live in a world of doing right. So this is not only the doer trap but we are in, we reward doing action like movement. You know, it feels like the pause to take to reflect doesn't feel productive. Right. And it actually is the most productive part because that's where the reflection and that pause is where the thing happens. It's a study and then adjust part of the plan, do study, adjust, cycle. And my experience is like we just, even if it's on our calendar, we're like, oh, all this doing and all these things have come up just God, we have all these meetings, we're just, we're going to cut that out or even our own personal reflection time because the doing part feels more productive. And so, so the way I work with leaders is twofold. Mr. Yoshino says this too. Like Toyota is very looking out and scheduling reflection time periodically, like big scale reflection as well as small scale reflection. And they stick to it. And he believes that that is part of their success. And this attitude towards learning is they really, really value that. And by valuing they do it. And so how can we make sure that we actually first plan out scheduled reflection time periodically through a cycle of change or a project or just on your weekly monthly calendar? And then how do you do that? And sometimes that can Feel overwhelming because we're like, God, we have this list of so much to do. But even starting with like 10 minutes or how can you break that? You know, how can you break it down in a smaller chunk and then have longer reflection at more appropriate, you know, sort of keep milestones during a project or an initiative. But the HANSEI is more than just a checkbox, and it's more than. And it's where the true learning happens. So we have to get better at it. We have to.
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A
Not only that, but I think that we need to take it further. You already mentioned a very old practice. You call it the Plan, Do, Study, Act. I always knew it as the PDCA or Plan Do, Check act that I read about from Deming. And one of the things that I've been trying to bring into my own practice and of course also with clients, is this idea that everything is reflection, right? Like doing is the result of reflection, rather than reflection being what comes after doing. So we use this concept of experimental execution, right? Like where. Where we start by the reflection, we don't start by the action. The action is a not natural consequence of having done the reflection, right? And this kind of leads into this idea that the A3 thinking or A3 report practice from Toyota also builds, which is this idea of understanding the system deeply and then acting on it and measuring it and learning from it. So it kind of builds everything into one, right? So how do you help organizations kind of leave this PDSA Plan Do, Study, act cycle?
- [27:50]
B
Great. So a few comments before we get into that. So actually Deming. So he started off as Plan, Do, Check, act, and over sort of later in his career, he moved to Plan, Do, Study, Adjust. He thought it more accurately reflected what really should be going on. Toyota still uses DCA because that's what was taught in the 1960s, in the 50s and 60s to them. So that's what Mr. Yoshino uses as well. And spot on with what you said, Vasco. I actually advocate that we call it Study Adjust, Plan Do. Like, why does acronyms need to start with P? Because it's a continuous cycle and we always forget the essay, the Study Adjust or the Check act, right? So if we can remember that the doing as you said is the result of the studying, maybe it'll help remind us. So be Adjust, Plan Do. And that's one of the very things that it's like, how do, how do. Well, Another thing that Mr. Yoshino will talk about at Toyota is that. But the PDCA or PDSA cycle is. That is the foundation of all a lot of their tools and their processes. So there's local PDCA happening on the daily basis at the front line. Like that's their, like micro Kaizen. Then there is the PDCA that's happening in an A3 report. That tool supports it. Like, how are we doing those cycles? And even Hoshi and Conry, which is their process of strategy deployment, is on a macro PDCA cycle for the year or for the five years. And then the more micro, excuse me, more micro cycles throughout. So it's that same thing. How can we bring that mindset in and frame everything as an experiment? So that's the reflection. And then what do we expect to happen? And then do what actually happens and then what do we need to keep adjusting? If we can keep bringing in that mindset of experimentation and remember that the study is the most important part, we are going to get better at the attitude towards learning.
- [29:41]
A
Yeah, absolutely. The attitude towards learning really is tied to that cycle. So I love how you wrapped it up there. All right, Katie, thank you very much for being with us. We're getting close to the end, but before we do so let me just talk about. The book is Leading to Learn.
- [29:59]
B
Learning to Lead. Learning to Learn.
- [30:01]
A
Yeah. Okay, so we'll put the link in the show notes to make sure that everybody goes and and finds that book. But if people want to find out about you, Katie, and the work that you're doing, where should they go?
- [30:14]
B
Well, of course, come in, connect with me on LinkedIn. KBJ Anderson is my handle there. Also, my website is kbjanderson.com that's my all my initials, KBJA. And come listen to my podcast Chain of Learning as well. I have had Mr. Yoshino on there, as well as many other thought leaders like Jim Womack and others in this space. So if you want to hear from them directly, Chain of Learning is a great continuation of some of the conversation that we've had here. Vasco. So to hearing listeners reflections and how they're applying learning in their own personal development and the change that they're leading in their organizations.
- [30:51]
A
Absolutely. Everybody reach out on LinkedIn and share your stories about your own chain of learning. Kate, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.
- [31:05]
B
Thanks, Oscar. I appreciate it. It's been great.
- [31:10]
A
Hi there, friends. Thanks for sticking around till the end of the episode. So let me tell you what's coming on May 4th. We're running the Global Agile Summit. It will be online and I want you there. This year we have four tracks and each one is built around real conversations with practitioners. No slides, no keynote theater, just honest interviews with people doing the work, just like you. The first track is AI in Organizations where practitioners show what actually works. No hype, just AI that makes your Monday better. Happy Monday everybody. And then we have the people track honest conversations about putting humans at the center of how we work and keeping them there. And third is Agile in Construction. And yes, I really mean brick and mortar construction. Lean and agile. Actual job sites, Field leaders removing waste. Teams transforming how buildings get built. Stay tuned for what I think will be a super track on Agile in construction. And the fourth track is Agile in Gaming. How game studios ship without burning out Agile Inside the Creative Pressure Cooker over the years We've had more than 12,000 participants since 2000 2017, the time of the first summit organized with the podcast, and this year we're making it easier than ever to join. You can register for free and get access to the summit sessions live during the event week. That's May 4th to May 6th. Or you can grab the Practitioner Pass and get immediate access to last year's keynotes from Jurgen Apelo, Gojko Adi and Mirete Kangas right now, even before the Summit starts. So grab your Practitioner Pass and start learning today. Head on over to bitly globalagile 26. That's 2, 6. The numerals 2 and 6 sign up and I'll see you on May 4th. And one more time, here we go. Bit ly globalagile 26. All lowercase, all one word and 26. That's the numeral 2 and the numeral 6. I'll see you on the conference floor.