Podcast Summary: “Why the Spotify Model Didn’t Work (Even at Spotify)”

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Date: March 16, 2026
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guests: Marcus Hammarberg & Tore Fjaertoft

Episode Overview

In this special bonus episode, Vasco Duarte discusses with Marcus Hammarberg and Tore Fjaertoft the persistent challenges organizations face when trying to install popular agile frameworks like “the Spotify Model.” Drawing from personal experience—including both guests' time at Spotify—the conversation explores why copying models doesn’t deliver results, how real improvement is rooted in a dynamic, product-like approach to ways of working, and what “better” actually means in practice. The discussion is both practical and philosophical, touching on anti-patterns, organizational psychology, and the vital shift from output to outcome.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Frustration of Model Copying

• Initial Connection
  • Marcus and Tore recount meeting and immediately connecting over similar frustrations: organizations yearn for “silver bullet” frameworks, hoping to fix deep-rooted issues simply by installing a famous model (03:00).
• Silver Bullet Mentality
  • Organizations often believe that “just execute according to the manual and then things will be great,” skipping the essential work of understanding and tailoring to their own context (05:00–06:37).

Notable Quote:

"You see the way you operate as a product in and of itself."
—Tore Fjaertoft (05:10)

2. Copying Without Adopting—What It Looks Like

• Offloading Thinking
  • Blind adherence to frameworks outsources critical thinking to “the process,” much like people now offload thought to AI (07:37–09:12).
  • The illusion that compliance equals improvement, while actual reflection—are we better?—is lost.

Notable Quote:

"It becomes more about following the framework than understanding the problem you’re trying to solve."
—Marcus Hammarberg (07:37)

3. The “Compliance Over Questioning” Trap

• Symptoms of Framework Failure
  • Organizations often jump from problem (silos, slow delivery, quality) to solution (imported framework) without defining what “better” means or how to measure improvement (09:44–13:45).
  • People start “focusing on compliance rather than being pragmatic,” overlooking whether their way of working truly serves the organizational goals.

Notable Quote:

"They're not necessarily questioning whether the way they're working is a part of that or not, because obviously, they're following the manual. So that cannot be a factor."
—Tore Fjaertoft (13:38)

4. Defining “Better”: Output vs. Outcome

• The Need for Direction
  • Many organizations lack a concrete definition of “better” and default to implementation or compliance (11:43).
  • The real shift is moving from measuring output (did we follow the process?) to outcome (did we achieve the intended business or user impact?).
• Experimentation over Blueprint
  • Success comes from running incremental experiments—testing, learning, and evolving—rather than expecting a static model to fit all (16:07–18:43).

Notable Quote:

"The big shift here in thinking is to move from output to outcome."
—Marcus Hammarberg (15:14)

5. Ways of Working as a Product

• Continuous Evolution
  • The most effective teams treat their processes as products—never finished, always evolving based on feedback and changing needs (20:37–24:43).
  • This “product mindset” means shipping changes to the process, collecting feedback, measuring satisfaction and outcomes, and adjusting.

Notable Quote:

"You need to start where you are ... sometimes you just do the MVP and then you see, okay, this part works. This part didn't work. Excellent. Then we try this instead."
—Tore Fjaertoft (18:43)

• Spotify’s Real Secret
  • Externally, “the Spotify model” was adopted widely—but inside Spotify, the model was always evolving and never treated as sacred text (23:44–24:43).

6. The Double Focus: Process & Business Impact

• For People & for Business
  • Improving the way of working isn’t just about happy teams—it must serve real business outcomes too (26:28–27:32).
  • The hypothesis: happy, empowered teams can drive better business results, but the two should always be measured together.

Notable Quote:

"Our hypothesis is that they always go hand in hand, obviously."
—Tore Fjaertoft (27:27)

7. Lessons from Lean & Manufacturing

• Empowerment + Alignment
  • Drawing on examples from manufacturing, Marcus explains how local empowerment must go hand-in-hand with alignment toward common goals (29:50–32:58).
  • Success comes from combining local metrics (individual/team performance) and overarching metrics (business outcomes).

Notable Quote:

"Empowerment ... has to be countered or weighed up with alignment to enable collaboration."
—Marcus Hammarberg (31:40)

8. Bringing It Back to Software: Experimentation as Norm

• Creative Work Needs Creative Solutions
  • Unlike manufacturing, software teams must repeatedly solve novel problems. The “ways of working as a product” mindset translates into supporting safe-to-fail experiments, rapid feedback, and iterating on both products and processes (33:09–37:21).

Notable Quote:

"At the very least, we should see, are people even using this feature?"
—Marcus Hammarberg (37:21)

9. The Importance of Communication & Why

• Clarity at Every Level
  • Every person on the team should know what they’re working on and most importantly: why (37:32–39:01).
  • Leaders need to communicate the “why” clearly, creating space for empowered decision-making.

Notable Quote:

"Every single day, everyone ... should be able to articulate what they would be working on today, obviously, but also why."
—Tore Fjaertoft (37:39)

Concluding Thoughts

• Marcus and Tore are working to crystallize this dynamic approach to organizational improvement—including publishing their learnings and models for feedback. They invite listeners to reach out and share experiences (39:29–41:37).
• The episode closes with a strong call to practitioners: don’t expect models to be your salvation. Instead, make your process a living product, iterate relentlessly, tie changes to real business outcomes, and always clarify the why behind your actions.

Timestamps for Major Segments

• The Model-Copying Problem: 03:00–07:37
• Compliance vs. Outcomes: 09:44–13:45
• Defining “Better” & Pragmatism: 15:14–20:37
• Ways of Working as Product (Spotify lesson): 20:37–24:43
• Empowerment/Alignment in Lean: 29:50–32:58
• Software: Experimentation, Not Replication: 33:09–37:21
• Articulating the Why (Leadership’s Role): 37:32–39:01
• Call for Feedback on Their Approach: 39:29–41:37

Memorable Quotes

• "You see the way you operate as a product in and of itself." —Tore Fjaertoft (05:10)
• "It becomes more about following the framework than understanding the problem you’re trying to solve." —Marcus Hammarberg (07:37)
• "The big shift here in thinking is to move from output to outcome." —Marcus Hammarberg (15:14)
• "Our hypothesis is that they always go hand in hand, obviously." —Tore Fjaertoft (27:27)
• "Empowerment ... has to be countered or weighed up with alignment to enable collaboration." —Marcus Hammarberg (31:40)
• "Every single day, everyone ... should be able to articulate what they would be working on today, obviously, but also why." —Tore Fjaertoft (37:39)

Takeaways for Agile Practitioners

• Don’t install frameworks expecting transformation; treat your way of working as a product and evolve it over time.
• Define clear outcomes, not just outputs or compliance to process.
• Real learning and change start where you are, with what you can measure and improve today.
• Empowerment must always be balanced with alignment to organizational purpose.
• Communication about “the why” is essential at every level—in teams and in leadership.

For more on Marcus and Tore’s work or to contribute to their evolving approach, connect with them on LinkedIn.