Podcast Summary: Breaking Down The Clan Mentality In Agile Teams | Mariano Gontchar

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Mariano Gontchar (Agile Coach, Scrum Master)
Air Date: September 2, 2025

Main Theme of the Episode

This episode focuses on the challenge of "clan mentality" within agile teams—where subgroups (often along backend and frontend lines) fall into destructive silos, eroding trust and collaboration. Mariano Gontchar shares a candid story of facing this challenge early in his Scrum Master career, explores what triggers these divisions, and discusses practical retrospectives and leadership mindsets that can help break down walls and foster a true collaborative spirit.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Book Inspirations and Leadership Models

• Book Highlight: Turn the Ship Around! by David Marquet
  • Mariano explains how the shift from a "leader-follower" model to a "leader-leader" model (as espoused in the book) greatly influenced his view of team leadership.
  • Quote (Mariano, 02:35):

    "You need to give the responsibility to the people... when you start to give more responsibility to the crew, be a leader-leader, right, the crew start to be… I don’t know what to say but ground on yourself. Right. And that is great for me."

• Importance of pushing responsibility and decision-making down to the team, versus being the single authority or problem-solver.

2. Applying the Leader-Leader Model as Scrum Master

• Mariano recounts switching from solving developers’ problems to asking them questions, pushing them to find solutions:
  • Quote (Mariano, 04:36):

    “Instead of giving them the answer, I asked: What opinion do you have? What do you think is the best solution for that?”

  • Recognizes discomfort among team members when first given autonomy (“you don’t like it, obviously there is people that like it and don’t like it, the power...” 05:28)
  • Change is gradual and takes patience.

3. The Breakdown: Story of a Team Torn by Clan Mentality

[06:42] Mariano tells the story:

• Team was technically skilled and motivated, but divided into backend vs. frontend 'clans’.

• Root Problem: Lack of trust

  • Quote (Mariano, 07:17):

    “The team have divided into clans, the backend and the front end… It's like… they don't trust between them. If something happened in API, frontend say the problem is the backend and the backend say the same.”

• This division led to:

  • Increased finger-pointing and blame ("Finger pointing, right?" – Vasco, 08:12)
  • Rising lead times and bug count ("The lead time increase, right? The number of bugs increase." – Mariano, 08:41)
  • Nobody owning the problem – each side blamed the other ("It's not my problem, it's their problem anyway." – Vasco, 09:41)

• Challenge for Scrum Master:

  • Traditional retrospectives failed; the team wouldn’t openly acknowledge the problem.
  • “If you say you have a problem, not the way to be a great Scrum master... you need to facilitate the conversation, not create the conversation.” (Mariano, 08:42)

4. Breaking the Silence: Retrospective on Fear

[10:03] Mariano’s approach:

• Ran a retrospective centered on anonymous fears:
  • Prompted team to write down their biggest fears (e.g. fear of code criticism, fear of being seen as incompetent for asking help).
  • Revealed the Product Owner (PO) as a source of fear—PO acting as a boss, being too involved technically, and evaluating team members.
    • Quote (Mariano, 11:53):

      “He say how to solve a needed and evaluate the performance of the team members. Because the PO, it's a PO but feel like a boss…”

5. Intervention: Empowering Teams & Handling Difficult POs

• Mariano worked to empower the team and foster collaboration across the frontend-backend “clans”:

  • Encouraged more team-only interactions (e.g., daily scrums without PO presence).
  • Communicated with the PO to reduce interference, but faced resistance; PO continued “boss-like” behaviors.
  • Quote (Mariano, 12:07):

    “First, empower the team or try to say okay with the PO. But first we need to talk about the team. Because if there are two clans in the same team, it's not responsibility to PO, it's the responsibility to the team...”

• Key realization:

  • Sometimes, not all interventions work, especially with misaligned Product Owners or entrenched dysfunctions.

6. Lessons Learned & Reflections

• Sometimes, you can do everything right and still not “fix” the team:
  • Quote (Mariano, 13:44):

    “It was not a good situation with that experience. But it’s happened, not all that you think that you do finish good or you can resolve it.”

• Importance of not blaming oneself as Scrum Master when results aren’t perfect.
• Recognizing when a PO is a mismatch for a team and being willing to say so.
  • Quote (Vasco, 13:35):

    “Sometimes you just need to say, hey, sorry, but this PO can’t work with this team. Maybe they’re good with another team, but not with this one.”

• Acknowledging that failure is part of the learning journey for Scrum Masters.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-----------|-------| | 02:35 | Mariano | "You need to give the responsibility to the people... when you start to give more responsibility to the crew, be a leader-leader, right, the crew start to be… I don’t know what to say but ground on yourself. Right. And that is great for me." | | 04:36 | Mariano | "Instead of giving them the answer, I asked: What opinion do you have? What do you think is the best solution for that?" | | 07:17 | Mariano | "The team have divided into clans, the backend and the front end… they don't trust between them." | | 08:41 | Mariano | "The lead time increase, right? The number of bugs increase. We started to get some signals, but nobody believed that there is a problem." | | 11:53 | Mariano | "He say how to solve a needed and evaluate the performance of the team members. Because the PO, it's a PO but feel like a boss." | | 13:44 | Mariano | "It was not a good situation with that experience. But it’s happened, not all that you think that you do finish good or you can resolve it." | | 13:35 | Vasco | "Sometimes you just need to say, hey, sorry, but this PO can’t work with this team..." |

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:35] – Switch from leader-follower to leader-leader model in agile teams
• [04:36] – Changing Scrum Master behavior: Asking questions instead of giving answers
• [06:42] – Introduction to the clan problem: Team splits and loss of trust
• [08:41] – Observable consequences: Long lead times, bugs, blame games
• [10:03] – Retrospective exercise: Fears and hidden triggers for mistrust
• [11:53] – PO over-reach: PO as boss and its negative impact
• [13:44] – Real-world outcomes: When not all interventions succeed

Conclusion

This episode dives deep into one of the most common—and most pernicious—dynamics in agile teams: the emergence of informal subgroups or "clans" that erode trust, collaboration, and ultimately performance. Mariano Gontchar's real-world example illustrates how such issues manifest and the limits of what Scrum Masters can do, especially when organizational structures or roles (like an overbearing PO) reinforce negative behaviors. The episode’s candid, patient tone is a reminder that, while frameworks and books are foundational, the human element is messy—and sometimes, even best efforts may not yield a perfect resolution.