Breaking Down The Clan Mentality In Agile Teams | Mariano Gontchar

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Breaking Down The Clan Mentality In Agile Teams | Mariano Gontchar

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Mariano Gontchar (Agile Coach, Scrum Master)
Air Date: September 2, 2025

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Main Theme of the Episode

This episode focuses on the challenge of "clan mentality" within agile teams—where subgroups (often along backend and frontend lines) fall into destructive silos, eroding trust and collaboration. Mariano Gontchar shares a candid story of facing this challenge early in his Scrum Master career, explores what triggers these divisions, and discusses practical retrospectives and leadership mindsets that can help break down walls and foster a true collaborative spirit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Book Inspirations and Leadership Models

• Book Highlight: Turn the Ship Around! by David Marquet
  • Mariano explains how the shift from a "leader-follower" model to a "leader-leader" model (as espoused in the book) greatly influenced his view of team leadership.
  • Quote (Mariano, 02:35):

    "You need to give the responsibility to the people... when you start to give more responsibility to the crew, be a leader-leader, right, the crew start to be… I don’t know what to say but ground on yourself. Right. And that is great for me."

• Importance of pushing responsibility and decision-making down to the team, versus being the single authority or problem-solver.

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2. Applying the Leader-Leader Model as Scrum Master

• Mariano recounts switching from solving developers’ problems to asking them questions, pushing them to find solutions:
  • Quote (Mariano, 04:36):

    “Instead of giving them the answer, I asked: What opinion do you have? What do you think is the best solution for that?”

  • Recognizes discomfort among team members when first given autonomy (“you don’t like it, obviously there is people that like it and don’t like it, the power...” 05:28)
  • Change is gradual and takes patience.

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3. The Breakdown: Story of a Team Torn by Clan Mentality

[06:42] Mariano tells the story:

• Team was technically skilled and motivated, but divided into backend vs. frontend 'clans’.

• Root Problem: Lack of trust

  • Quote (Mariano, 07:17):

    “The team have divided into clans, the backend and the front end… It's like… they don't trust between them. If something happened in API, frontend say the problem is the backend and the backend say the same.”

• This division led to:

  • Increased finger-pointing and blame ("Finger pointing, right?" – Vasco, 08:12)
  • Rising lead times and bug count ("The lead time increase, right? The number of bugs increase." – Mariano, 08:41)
  • Nobody owning the problem – each side blamed the other ("It's not my problem, it's their problem anyway." – Vasco, 09:41)

• Challenge for Scrum Master:

  • Traditional retrospectives failed; the team wouldn’t openly acknowledge the problem.
  • “If you say you have a problem, not the way to be a great Scrum master... you need to facilitate the conversation, not create the conversation.” (Mariano, 08:42)

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4. Breaking the Silence: Retrospective on Fear

[10:03] Mariano’s approach:

• Ran a retrospective centered on anonymous fears:
  • Prompted team to write down their biggest fears (e.g. fear of code criticism, fear of being seen as incompetent for asking help).
  • Revealed the Product Owner (PO) as a source of fear—PO acting as a boss, being too involved technically, and evaluating team members.
    • Quote (Mariano, 11:53):

      “He say how to solve a needed and evaluate the performance of the team members. Because the PO, it's a PO but feel like a boss…”

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5. Intervention: Empowering Teams & Handling Difficult POs

• Mariano worked to empower the team and foster collaboration across the frontend-backend “clans”:

  • Encouraged more team-only interactions (e.g., daily scrums without PO presence).
  • Communicated with the PO to reduce interference, but faced resistance; PO continued “boss-like” behaviors.
  • Quote (Mariano, 12:07):

    “First, empower the team or try to say okay with the PO. But first we need to talk about the team. Because if there are two clans in the same team, it's not responsibility to PO, it's the responsibility to the team...”

• Key realization:

  • Sometimes, not all interventions work, especially with misaligned Product Owners or entrenched dysfunctions.

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6. Lessons Learned & Reflections

• Sometimes, you can do everything right and still not “fix” the team:
  • Quote (Mariano, 13:44):

    “It was not a good situation with that experience. But it’s happened, not all that you think that you do finish good or you can resolve it.”

• Importance of not blaming oneself as Scrum Master when results aren’t perfect.
• Recognizing when a PO is a mismatch for a team and being willing to say so.
  • Quote (Vasco, 13:35):

    “Sometimes you just need to say, hey, sorry, but this PO can’t work with this team. Maybe they’re good with another team, but not with this one.”

• Acknowledging that failure is part of the learning journey for Scrum Masters.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-----------|-------| | 02:35 | Mariano | "You need to give the responsibility to the people... when you start to give more responsibility to the crew, be a leader-leader, right, the crew start to be… I don’t know what to say but ground on yourself. Right. And that is great for me." | | 04:36 | Mariano | "Instead of giving them the answer, I asked: What opinion do you have? What do you think is the best solution for that?" | | 07:17 | Mariano | "The team have divided into clans, the backend and the front end… they don't trust between them." | | 08:41 | Mariano | "The lead time increase, right? The number of bugs increase. We started to get some signals, but nobody believed that there is a problem." | | 11:53 | Mariano | "He say how to solve a needed and evaluate the performance of the team members. Because the PO, it's a PO but feel like a boss." | | 13:44 | Mariano | "It was not a good situation with that experience. But it’s happened, not all that you think that you do finish good or you can resolve it." | | 13:35 | Vasco | "Sometimes you just need to say, hey, sorry, but this PO can’t work with this team..." |

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:35] – Switch from leader-follower to leader-leader model in agile teams
• [04:36] – Changing Scrum Master behavior: Asking questions instead of giving answers
• [06:42] – Introduction to the clan problem: Team splits and loss of trust
• [08:41] – Observable consequences: Long lead times, bugs, blame games
• [10:03] – Retrospective exercise: Fears and hidden triggers for mistrust
• [11:53] – PO over-reach: PO as boss and its negative impact
• [13:44] – Real-world outcomes: When not all interventions succeed

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Conclusion

This episode dives deep into one of the most common—and most pernicious—dynamics in agile teams: the emergence of informal subgroups or "clans" that erode trust, collaboration, and ultimately performance. Mariano Gontchar's real-world example illustrates how such issues manifest and the limits of what Scrum Masters can do, especially when organizational structures or roles (like an overbearing PO) reinforce negative behaviors. The episode’s candid, patient tone is a reminder that, while frameworks and books are foundational, the human element is messy—and sometimes, even best efforts may not yield a perfect resolution.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question. What if for the price of a fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership. And it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership. That's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.

[B]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our team Tuesday and this week joining us is Mariano Gonciar. Hey Mariano, welcome back.

[C]

Hello, how are you?

[B]

So Mariano, on Tuesday we talk about teams and how sometimes they become their own worst enemies. But before we dive into that, share with us what's the book that most inspired you in your career as a Scrum Master?

[A]

Wow.

[C]

It's different, right? I. I don't know. I read a lot of books in my life or papers. Right. I don't know about Jelly Metallurgy, different Scum Guide and the project manager too. But there is one in particular to change the way I think Turn the ship around by David Market book is fascinating. I don't know if you know that, but it's about a US Navy commander who takes command nuclear submarine with this motivate crew. I don't know that about that. No, absolutely.

[B]

We've had David on the show to talk about the book so. And the book gets recommended so I'm interested what made that book so impactful for you, Mariano?

[C]

Well, because I understand that the markets shift from a leader follower model to a leader leader model. That is the difference I want to like I talked to you in the first episode the people the leader or the Scrum Master they to empathize with the team in that reaction you need to give the responsibility to the people. In that book they show that when he is a boss that is a commander was give the orders the crew. That's not okay. And then when we started to be more responsibility to the crew, be a leader. Leader. Right. The crew start to be. I don't know what to say but ground on yourself. Right. And that is great for me. Obviously I can recommend many other books. One of the most famous books about scam Scam the Art of Doing Twice I'm Working Half the Time by Jeff Sunderland. I don't know, I have a cliche with Sunderland. I like it, I like it many papers and I like it crochet with Sunderland. Sorry.

[B]

Okay. But coming back to the Turn the Ship around book, you talk about the difference between the leader leader model, which is what Marquet introduces in the book, and the more traditional leader follower model. When you think about your role as a Scrum Master, what is one lesson that you took from the book that really helped you understand the power of the leader leader model?

[C]

Well, I remember a time during my stay as a Scrum master in my beginning in telecom group where I had a very complex attend developer team. But they always expect me or the PO to give them the solution with that problem, right? Every time technical obstacle came up they will come and ask that they should do market mindset. I started to change my approach. Instead of giving them the answer, I asked question like what opinion do you have? What do you think is the best solution for that? Obviously there is people in the team told me I don't know. You tell me that they need it or do tell me how I resolve it. It's weird because I give you the power and you don't need it or you feel that you don't need it. That is weird for me. The people tell me that and say really? I give you the opportunity to create and you don't like it. Obviously there is people that like it and don't like it, the power. But you continuous try to give them and say it's like when you are a child and you are crowing around the years. Well, this is the same. Well, little by little I saw how they transform.

[B]

It's a time and it's also about patience, right? Like things don't happen immediately. All right. But Tuesday is also the story of a team. Mariano, tell us that story. The story of a team that you know through these little interactions or behaviors actually created a huge problem for themselves.

[C]

Okay, well, can I say an example? Right. I found a team that was working creating series happy and the team made of very competent developer. Right? But they was a fundamental problem holding them back. A lack of truth. Right? The team.

[B]

What was the problem? Sorry, can you repeat? What was the problem that was holding them back?

[C]

Of true, the people have lack of truth. Lack of truth or Trust.

[B]

Lack of trust. Now I understand.

[C]

Okay, now sorry, in my English they have this problem, lack of trust. The team have divided into clans, the backend and the front end. It's similar in many teams that happen clans in a team.

[B]

So what you're describing is that these clans didn't trust each other.

[C]

Yeah, obviously it's like. It's like that. Yes. They don't like it. I don't trust between them. If something happened in API frontend say the problem is the backend and the backend say the same.

[B]

Yeah, Finger pointing, right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So how did you help them? Like okay, the problem is quite clear, right? Like once you start seeing it, you go like okay, this is not going to work. So how did you help them?

[C]

I feel it, I feel it. But I can't show you because if you are. If I create a retrospective, we started to talk. Nothing, nobody say nothing and say it's okay.

[B]

They couldn't see the problem.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And this is difficult because you need you. If you say you and you have a problem, not the way to be a great Scrum master for me, for example, you need to facilitate the conversation, not create the conversation and say that is the problem. The solution is that you need to create an ambient or situation that the people understand. What is the real problem then? Well, I continued because the important self destructive behavior led to an increase in lead time. We started with a lead time increase, right? The number of bugs increase. We started to get some signals, but nobody believed that there is a problem.

[B]

And also probably they said it's not my problem, it's their problem anyway.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So lead time grows, bugs grow, but it's not my problem, it's their problem.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

The leak is in your side of the boat.

[C]

Exactly, exactly. Or the problem is you don't understand what our problem or so how did you.

[B]

How did you help them see the problem?

[C]

But it's complicated to understand in that time. I create a retrospective, like another retrospective too. And I say, okay, don't put with this the problem in that sprint. Put with this your fear, your fear or most important fear. Anonymous. In a sticky note the things come up like fear of my code being criticized or fear of asking for help because I be seeing a less competent. Right. They feel that not good. And say, obviously we talk in this retrospective who criticize your work or who say that you are not competent because you don't understand anything or something and say all the people try to say po. It's weird, but the PO have some technical knowledge. And was completely involved in definition. That is about things. Right. He say how to solve a needed and evaluate the performance of the team members. Because the po, it's a PO but feel like a boss. Right. That is weird. But it's happening in the real life that PO feel like a boss.

[B]

So that was the trigger of the fear was the POS attitude.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So were you able to change something about it? Did they talk to the po like what happened next?

[C]

Well, first empower the team or try to say okay, okay with the po. But first we need to talk about the team. Because if there are two clans in the same team, it's not responsibility to po, it's the responsibility to the team and say okay, front end, back end. Try to work together. Try to create. If you. The problem is Bill create a specific situation that don't. Don't invite the po. Try to the daily. Don't get the PO every day, for example. Or whatever. And yeah, obviously we. I try to talk with the po. Many pos. Understand? Or this po. It was particular because continuous creating. He's a leader, he's a boss. He have the all these people in her sector. It was difficult because I need to all the time working with the po trying to create a specific situation with the team. It was difficult. It was non good situation with that experience. But it's happened not all that you think that you do finish good or you can resolve it.

[B]

And sometimes you just need to say, hey, sorry, but this PO can't work with this team.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Maybe they're good with another team, but not with this one.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

And that's an important realization because sometimes you just can't solve it.

[C]

Then I have to try to an experience that doesn't work and it's happened. Don't feel bad. Obviously I feel bad in this time always because I can resolve. It's my first. My first or second job in Scrum Master. Say I am not good being a Scrum master. Maybe, but I understand that it's not the important thing. You try to do all the things that you feel. Yes. You try to feel better the team, the poor. But maybe it doesn't happen. There is people that don't like the agile or maybe don't like it.

[B]

Maybe they don't even like the PO role. I mean, that's also a possibility.

[C]

Yes, but maybe don't understand. Don't want to understand.

[B]

Mariano, thank you very much for sharing that story with us.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

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[B]

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