Breaking Down the Wall Between Product and Engineering | Vasco Duarte

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches
Episode Summary: Breaking Down the Wall Between Product and Engineering
Host: Vasco Duarte
Release Date: December 24, 2024

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Breaking Down the Wall Between Product and Engineering," Vasco Duarte delves into the persistent challenges that hinder seamless collaboration between product management and engineering teams within organizations. Despite advancements in Agile methodologies, Vasco highlights that invisible barriers continue to impede the flow of innovation and effective product development.

The Persistent Wall Between Product and Engineering

Vasco opens the discussion by drawing an analogy to the divisive topic of pineapple on pizza, illustrating the widespread yet often overlooked issue of siloed teams. He states:

“In 2025, we're still building walls. And I don't mean the physical kind, but the invisible ones that are just as damaging to our organizations.”
[00:27]

He underscores that these barriers are not merely organizational nuisances but fundamental obstacles that compromise the Agile framework's effectiveness.

The Impact of Silos on Agile Practices

Highlighting the core of Agile’s success—collaborative effort—Vasco points out that when product managers and engineers operate in isolation, the entire product lifecycle suffers. He explains:

“One side of that wall is writing requirements and the other side is trying to write code for those requirements. But it's not working too well because they're not collaborating so much.”
[04:30]

This lack of collaboration leads to misaligned goals, inefficient workflows, and ultimately, products that fail to meet customer needs effectively.

Real-Life Success Stories

To illustrate the potential of dismantling these walls, Vasco shares two compelling case studies from his clients:

1. Experiments-Only Team:

   • Approach: Vasco describes a Finnish client where an "experiments-only" team was established.
   • Implementation: The team focused on real product experiments driven by clear goals. Engineering built the necessary infrastructure while product management defined and guided these experiments.
   • Outcome: This collaboration fostered a rapid feedback loop between ideas and market responses, enabling the team to swiftly iterate and refine their offerings.

   “The team was working from a goal. They built the engineering team, that is built the infrastructure that was needed and the product, helped the team know what infrastructure was necessary and then guided the team by defining together experiments that they tried out on a fast pace in the market.”
   [10:15]

2. Radical Planning Transformation:

   • Approach: At another client, after a transformative three-day workshop led by Vasco, the organization revamped its product decision-making process.
   • Implementation: They shifted to a bottom-up planning approach aligned with top-down strategic goals, fostering direct collaboration between product and engineering teams.
   • Outcome: This new methodology enabled the company to generate innovative ideas swiftly and adapt quickly when experiments didn't yield expected results, emphasizing a strong feedback loop to identify impactful solutions.

   “This company was able to come up with crazy good ideas that they tried very quickly. And they were also very quick at adapting when those ideas didn't work.”
   [17:45]

Emerging Trends and Future Directions

Vasco highlights emerging trends that signify a shift towards integrated leadership structures:

• CTPO Role (Chief Technical and Product Officer):
  An innovative company in Berlin has merged technical and product leadership into a single role, effectively removing the divide between product and engineering. Vasco remarks:

  “They call it the CTPO or Chief Technical and Product Officer. And we actually have an episode with them. So check out the interview and the link is in the show notes... they've taken the wall between product and engineering and turned it into what I would call like a large living room where everybody's working on the product together.”
  [21:30]

This integrated leadership model fosters a collaborative environment where both product and engineering professionals work towards common objectives, enhancing creativity and efficiency.

Vasco's Wish for 2025

Concluding the episode, Vasco shares his aspiration for the Agile community:

“Let's stop building walls and start building common rooms for product and engineering. Let's recognize that product and engineering are a little bit like coffee and milk. Sure they're different, but together they make something special.”
[24:10]

He emphasizes that the synergy between product and engineering is no longer a luxury but a necessity for organizations aiming to lead and innovate in the competitive landscape of 2025.

Call to Action

Vasco invites listeners to witness and participate in this transformative journey by attending the upcoming Global Agile Summit 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. He reiterates the importance of community and shared knowledge in advancing Agile practices:

“The companies that figure out how to bring product and engineering together are going to be the ones leading the pack in 2025 and they're going to be the ones where we see innovation flow and have a real impact on the business.”
[26:00]

Conclusion

This episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast serves as a compelling call to action for Agile practitioners to bridge the gap between product management and engineering. By sharing real-life success stories and highlighting emerging collaborative trends, Vasco Duarte provides actionable insights aimed at fostering a more integrated and effective Agile environment. Listeners are encouraged to embrace collaborative leadership models and participate in community events like the Global Agile Summit to stay at the forefront of Agile innovation.

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Notable Quotes:

• Vasco Duarte:
  “In 2025, we're still building walls. And I don't mean the physical kind, but the invisible ones that are just as damaging to our organizations.”
  [00:27]

• Vasco Duarte:
  “One side of that wall is writing requirements and the other side is trying to write code for those requirements. But it's not working too well because they're not collaborating so much.”
  [04:30]

• Vasco Duarte:
  “The team was working from a goal... defining together experiments that they tried out on a fast pace in the market.”
  [10:15]

• Vasco Duarte:
  “This company was able to come up with crazy good ideas that they tried very quickly. And they were also very quick at adapting when those ideas didn't work.”
  [17:45]

• Vasco Duarte:
  “They call it the CTPO or Chief Technical and Product Officer... they've taken the wall between product and engineering and turned it into what I would call like a large living room where everybody's working on the product together.”
  [21:30]

• Vasco Duarte:
  “Let's stop building walls and start building common rooms for product and engineering... together they make something special.”
  [24:10]

• Vasco Duarte:
  “The companies that figure out how to bring product and engineering together are going to be the ones leading the pack in 2025...”
  [26:00]

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Join the Conversation:
To explore more about breaking down silos in Agile teams and to connect with like-minded professionals, consider attending the Global Agile Summit 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. Secure your spot early to take advantage of discounted rates and be part of shaping the future of Agile.

For more insights and actionable Agile strategies, subscribe to the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast on Stitcher or iTunes and share with your Agile community.

Transcript

[Vasco Duarte]

Hey, how are you doing? I'm Vasco Duarte, your host on the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. And I've got some exciting news. So right now, as I record this, I'm holding in my hand the signed contract for our very first Global Agile Summit. We're all in and I couldn't wait to share this news with you. So mark your calendars. May 18th, 20th of 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. We're gonna have a transformative experience. We're putting together an event that is all about real life agile. It's not theory or buzzwords. It's practitioners sharing what's working, what's making an impact, and how they've overcome challenges that you too will have to face, or maybe even facing. Right now, we're bringing together the best stories in Agile. From product leaders to engineering wizards to business visionaries, these will be stories that will inspire you to action. This isn't just another conference. It's a chance to connect with the people that are shaping the future of Agile. And here's the best part. Right now, we're in our super early bird phase. And that means you can grab tickets at just 25% of the final price. Look, that's not just half off, it's half off of the half off. It's an incredible deal for our dedicated community members, just like you listening to this right now. So at the summit, day one will be all about hands on workshops. And days two and three, we'll dive into leadership, product strategy, coding, testing, and everything that makes Agile thrive in organizations. Right now remember, these are all first person, real life stories. Now whether you're a leader, a developer, or part of a consulting company, this event is built to take your Agile game to the next level. So don't wait. Go to globalagilesummit.com and grab your ticket. Today, let's all make 2025 the year agile truly transforms your teams, your business and our industry. I'll see you all in Tallinn. And Remember, go to globalagilesummit.com and get your super early bird ticket right now. It only be available until the agenda is announced, so don't wait. Grab it right now. Right now that that's out of the way, onto the episode. Hi everybody. Welcome back to my five wishes for 2025 series. I'm Vasco and today we're talking about something that's about as popular as pineapple on pizza. And of course, that's the wall between product and engineering teams. You know what's funny? In 2025, we're still building walls. And I don't mean the physical kind, but the invisible ones that are just as damaging to our organizations. One of my guests in an upcoming season says product management is broken. I mean, check it out. It's a great episode. And you know what? He might be onto something. Let me tell you a quick story from the Scrum world. Many of you will remember when we had to fight to get back to get, pardon me, the product owner accepted as part of the team. It's like we had convinced that the pilot should actually be in the airplane. It's crazy, right? But here's the thing that was just the beginning. The tip of the proverbial iceberg. The product owner or product engineering division was like trying to fix a leaky boat by patching only one hole. You need to look at the bigger picture. And you know, that picture isn't very pretty at the moment. And it isn't getting any prettier in the organizations that are not adopting Agile either. Think about what's happening with AI right now. The engineering teams are working with this, what might be a goldmine of technical possibilities while product folks have their fingers on the pulse of what customers actually need. But they're not working together. I mean, one of them is, one side of that wall is writing requirements and the other side is trying to write code for those requirements. But it's not working too well because they're not collaborating so much. And this is like having the ingredients and the recipe in separate rooms. How are you supposed to cook something amazing last Christmas? And no, this is not a George Michael song. Last Christmas I went, I talked about the importance of product experimentation. But here's what I've learned since then. When we try to have product experimentation without having product and engineering in the same room, it's like trying to clap with one hand. Let me share two real life stories that show what's possible when we break down these walls between product and engineering. At one of my clients we created what we called an experiments only team. They were skeptical as a Finnish person at a small talk convention, but it worked. This was not the kind of mad scientist kind of experiments, of course, but it was like real product focused experiments. The team was working from a goal. They built the engineering team, that is built the infrastructure that was needed and the product, helped the team know what infrastructure was necessary and then guided the team by defining together experiments that they tried out on a fast pace in the market. They built a really tight feedback loop between idea and feedback from the market. At another client, they did something even more radical. After I hosted a three day workshop with them, they decided to completely change the way they managed their product decisions. Even I was surprised when they did that. Like I wasn't expecting that they would do that. But for them it was clear what to do for the next planning cycle. They started to do the planning bottom up against a set of top down strategic goals that the company had set up for that year. And this bottom up planning was only possible because product and engineering were now working together instead of the product people getting maybe a set of initiatives that they had to cascade towards engineering. OKRs. Oh, sorry. Seems that I have caught some sort of virus here. Yeah, the cascading doesn't really work, does it? And because of that, this company was able to come up with crazy good ideas that they tried very quickly. And they were also very quick at adapting when those ideas didn't work. And I mean, let's face it, many of the ideas we have don't actually work in practice. So when we get that feedback loop working really quickly, we're able to help companies find the value, as I call it, right? Like find what really has an impact. That's why we need like this client did the bottom up planning against the set of top down strategic goals. And this is why I'm so excited about what's happening with a company that I know of in Berlin. Right. And I think it shows a trend of what might be coming in this company. They combine their technical and product leadership into one role. They call it the CTPO or Chief Technical and Product Officer. And we actually have an episode with them. So check out the interview and the link is in the show notes and it's like they've taken the wall between product and engineering and turned it into what I would call like a large living room where everybody's working on the product together. And this is course because now they share a leader. Product and engineering have the same leader. So here's my wish for 2025. Let's stop building walls and start building common rooms for product and engineering. Let's recognize that product and engineering are a little bit like coffee and milk. Sure they're different, but you know, together they make something special. And yes, I know that some of you like to drink your coffee black or your tea without milk, but work with me on the metaph, you know what I mean? The companies that figure out how to bring product and engineering together are going to be the ones leading the pack in 2025 and they're going to be the ones where we see innovation flow and have a real impact on the business. Because that's really the goal, right? To have a real impact on the business through satisfying customer needs to making customers happy to use our products. So remember, the best products aren't built by product or engineering. And I see a lot of posts on LinkedIn arguing for one or the other. They're built by product and engineering working together. And that's not just a nice to have anymore, it's a must have for survival in today's world. So check out the episode with that Chief Technical and Product Officer in Berlin. The link is in the show notes because it shows us a glimpse of what the future could look like if we take these ideas that Agile is all about further than where they are today. Now if you want to see this in action, you can join us at the Global Agile Summit 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. We'll be featuring real life stories that show how this is already happening today and it's not only possible, but it's having a huge impact. We'll be featuring real life stories with real organizations that are doing this flow based and product and engineering based delivery already today. These were the first two wishes of this week, right? Flow based and product and engineering working together. Those are the first two wishes. And if you're listening to this during the Christmas season we have a gift for you. Our Super Early Bird ticket is now available and it gives you a 75% discount on the final price for the summit. So don't miss it. Check out the Super Early Bird and the introduction video@the globalagilesummit.com I'll see you in Tallinn and Merry Christmas. Until next time. Keep breaking those walls down. And remember, if someone tells you, oh no, no, no, this is how it's always been done, that's probably a good sign. It needs to change. Merry Christmas. We really hope you liked our show and if you did, why not rate this podcast on Stitcher or itunes. Share this podcast and let other Scrum masters know about this valuable resource for their work. Remember that sharing is caring.