Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches
Episode: Bridging the Gap Between Agile Teams and Leadership | Josh Anderson
Host: Pasco Duarte
Release Date: February 18, 2025

Introduction

In this episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Pasco Duarte welcomes Josh Anderson, a seasoned technology leader, podcaster, and author. Josh brings over two decades of experience in technology leadership, product innovation, and operational excellence. Together, they delve into the intricate dynamics between Agile teams and organizational leadership, uncovering the challenges and strategies for effective collaboration.

The Core Challenge: Alignment Between Agile Teams and Leadership

Josh Anderson kicks off the discussion by highlighting a fundamental issue: the misalignment between leadership and Scrum leaders. He emphasizes that “the leadership and the scrum leaders are out of sync” (03:19). This misalignment often manifests when teams refer to "the business" as a separate entity, creating a disconnect. Josh asserts, “You are part of the business” (04:00), urging Agile leaders to bridge this divide by fostering a shared understanding of the business's core objectives.

Understanding the Business of the Business

Josh stresses the importance of Agile leaders and their teams fully comprehending how the business generates value. “How do we make money? How do our customers find the products that we build, ship, and sell?” (04:20) he asks, pointing out that an overemphasis on Agile processes can sometimes obscure the ultimate goal of delivering customer value. He advises Agile leaders to partner with the broader organization to deepen their understanding of what truly adds value for customers.

Communication Barriers and Language Differences

Pasco Duarte brings up the critical role of language in bridging gaps, referencing Wheel’s Law: “All communication fails except by accident.” (08:20). Josh agrees, noting that “there's a lot of agile mumbo jumbo” (06:25) that may not resonate with executive teams. He recommends using common terminology that resonates across the organization to ensure clear and effective communication.

Strategies for Effective Communication

Josh offers practical advice for Agile leaders to enhance communication:

1. Simplify Language: Avoid jargon and speak in terms that leadership understands.
2. Clarify and Iterate: Be prepared to explain concepts multiple times. “Assume you need to say that thing seven times before it actually gets fully consumed” (09:41).
3. Experiment with Communication Methods: If standard meetings aren’t effective, consider informal settings like lunch discussions to convey messages differently (17:40).

Cultivating Patience and Supporting Change

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the necessity of patience—both with oneself and others—during the Agile transformation process. Josh shares his personal journey of learning to be patient, recognizing that “humans don't work like that” (15:49) when it comes to changing habits and processes. He underscores the importance of supporting team members as they navigate the change curve, allowing them to shed old habits and embrace new ones at their own pace.

Leadership Laboratory: A Framework for Continuous Improvement

Pasco Duarte introduces the concept of a "Leadership Laboratory" from Josh's Substack post, which serves as a metaphor for treating leadership development as an ongoing experimental process. Josh explains, “Whenever you're trying to introduce something new to any group of people, you should assume you need to say that thing seven times before it actually gets fully consumed” (09:41). This approach encourages continuous experimentation and adaptation, fostering a culture where both product and process improvements are seamlessly integrated.

Turning Negative Experiences into Growth Opportunities

Josh Anderson discusses his approach to handling less-than-ideal leadership experiences. Instead of succumbing to frustration, he advocates for “creating a database in my mind of things to never do” (18:20). This proactive strategy allows him to identify and eliminate counterproductive behaviors, paving the way for becoming the leader he aspires to be. He shares, “If you can prove something isn't true, then you kind of prove the other side that it is true” (18:20), highlighting how negative examples can inform positive leadership practices.

Resource Highlight: "Turn the Ship Around"

When asked about impactful resources, Josh recommends 《Turn the Ship Around》 by L. David Marquet. He praises the book for its practical approach to leadership transformation, especially in transitioning from a rigid hierarchy to empowering leaders at all levels. Josh notes, “There were real world examples of how they address that problem” (32:24), making it a valuable tool for Agile leaders seeking actionable insights.

Conclusion and Further Resources

As the episode wraps up, Josh encourages listeners to engage with his work through his newsletter, "Leadership Lighthouse," and his podcast, Metacast with Josh Anderson and Bob Galen. He emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and experimentation in both leadership and Agile practices.

Pasco Duarte closes the episode by inviting listeners to connect with Josh via his website kazi.io for coaching and consulting services, reinforcing the episode's theme of ongoing collaboration and growth.

Notable Quotes

• Josh Anderson (03:19): “The leadership and the scrum leaders are out of sync.”
• Josh Anderson (04:00): “You are part of the business.”
• Josh Anderson (06:25): “There's a lot of agile mumbo jumbo.”
• Josh Anderson (09:41): “Assume you need to say that thing seven times before it actually gets fully consumed.”
• Josh Anderson (15:49): “Humans don't work like that.”
• Josh Anderson (18:20): “If you can prove something isn't true, then you kind of prove the other side that it is true.”
• Josh Anderson (32:24): “There were real world examples of how they address that problem.”

Further Resources

• Josh Anderson's Newsletter: Leadership Lighthouse
• Podcast: Metacast with Josh Anderson and Bob Galen
• Book Recommendation: Turn the Ship Around by L. David Marquet

This episode offers invaluable insights into the symbiotic relationship between Agile teams and leadership, emphasizing communication, patience, and continuous improvement. Whether you're a Scrum Master, Agile Coach, or organizational leader, Josh Anderson's experiences and strategies provide a roadmap for bridging gaps and fostering a cohesive, high-performing Agile environment.