Building Trust Between Teams and Product Owners During A Challenging Rewrite Project | Ville Reijonen

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches

Episode: Building Trust Between Teams and Product Owners During A Challenging Rewrite Project | Ville Reijonen
Release Date: January 20, 2025
Host: Vasco Duarte, Agile Coach, Certified Scrum Master, Certified Product Owner

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte engages in an insightful conversation with Ville Reijonen, a seasoned agilist and pattern enthusiast from Finland. Ville brings a wealth of experience as a freelance coach, co-author of two books on distributed machine control system patterns and Scrum patterns, and a passionate advocate for Agile methodologies. Together, they delve into a real-world failure story, exploring the dynamics between teams and product owners during a challenging system renewal project.

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Guest Introduction: Ville Reijonen

Vasco begins by introducing Ville, highlighting his extensive background in Agile practices and his knack for identifying and applying patterns in various projects. Ville's journey to becoming a Scrum Master is both personal and professional, shaped by the economic challenges of the 2008 financial crisis and his transition from academia to the tech industry.

Ville Reijonen:
"That's a path anyway, but sometimes you get a title, but it's a learning path anyways." [02:54]

Ville recounts his early career struggles, moving from a researcher role at a university to a more hands-on position in software methodologies. His ability to adapt and take on the Scrum Master role emerged organically as he facilitated tooling, guidelines, and documentation for a remote team based in India.

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The Failure Story: A Challenging System Renewal Project

Ville shares a poignant story from his experience as a Scrum Master during a system renewal project that ultimately faced significant challenges.

The Setup: Ville was assigned to a system renewal project, inherently a complex and high-stakes endeavor, especially given the existing system's extensive functionalities. The project's failure was exacerbated by the dynamics between the team and the product owner.

Key Issues:

1. Difficult Product Owner: The product owner was highly opinionated, rarely open to feedback, and maintained a rigid stance on their decisions.

   Ville Reijonen:
   "He had really strong opinions and was following those ones. And that end up being case where there was no victory condition really." [08:22]

2. Team Resistance: A faction of the team openly refused to work with the product owner, creating a toxic environment that hindered collaboration.

   Ville Reijonen:
   "There are quite a few people who were unwilling to work with this product owner." [07:11]

3. Big Bang Release: The project culminated in a large-scale, big bang release—a high-risk approach that left little room for iterative feedback and adjustments.

   Vasco Duarte:
   "System renewals are problematic, period." [08:26]

As a result, the launch was disastrous, leading to a loss of approximately 20% of customers due to system inadequacies that surfaced post-deployment.

Ville Reijonen:
"There was the big bang really which came the big wave of feedback. [...] the product owner still didn't listen." [09:24]

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Analyzing the Failure

Vasco and Ville dissect the multifaceted reasons behind the project's downfall, emphasizing the interplay between leadership, team dynamics, and project management methodologies.

Contributing Factors:

• Rigid Leadership: The product owner's unwillingness to adapt or incorporate team feedback stifled innovation and responsiveness.

  Ville Reijonen:
  "Even when the team members told this person that this, this is not something I would like to have as a customer, the product owner still didn't listen." [09:24]

• Lack of Incremental Feedback: The decision to proceed with a big bang release prevented the team from identifying and addressing issues in a timely manner.

• Team Morale and Trust: The refusal of some team members to collaborate with the product owner eroded trust and diminished overall team cohesion.

Vasco Duarte:
"Can we at least get some beta customers? [...] create this image of the actual consequence of the problems." [12:03]

Vasco suggests strategies such as involving beta customers or "antagonistic testers" to create constructive tension, driving the product owner to reconsider and engage more collaboratively.

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Lessons Learned

Despite the project's failure, Ville extracts valuable lessons about the Scrum Master role and managing challenging team dynamics.

1. Recognize Unwinnable Battles: It's crucial to identify when certain conflicts or challenges are beyond resolution, allowing Scrum Masters to redirect their energy towards more impactful areas.

   Ville Reijonen:
   "Sometimes you cannot save people from themselves. Some people are sometimes in wrong role." [10:39]

2. Focus on Impactful Actions: Instead of expending energy on issues that yield minimal change, prioritize efforts that can drive significant improvements within the team and project.

3. Facilitate Open Communication: Encourage dialogues that allow team members to express concerns and provide feedback, fostering an environment of trust and collaboration.

4. Adapt Leadership Strategies: When faced with a stubborn product owner, Scrum Masters might need to employ creative approaches to influence and guide them towards more Agile practices.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with gratitude between Vasco and Ville, acknowledging the depth of Ville's shared experience. Ville's narrative serves as a cautionary tale for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches, highlighting the complexities of team dynamics and the pivotal role of effective leadership. Through this honest exploration of failure, listeners are encouraged to glean insights that can prevent similar pitfalls in their Agile journeys.

Vasco Duarte:
"Sometimes product owners are just in a world of their own. They don't listen to anyone and therefore end up with system renewal projects that end up crashing." [14:27]

Ville and Vasco emphasize the importance of resilience, adaptability, and continuous learning in the face of challenges, reinforcing the essence of Agile storytelling from the trenches.

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Key Takeaways

• Effective Communication: Essential for bridging gaps between teams and product owners, ensuring that feedback is heard and acted upon.

• Leadership Flexibility: Agile leaders must be adaptable, willing to pivot strategies when faced with resistance or unproductive dynamics.

• Incremental Feedback Loops: Implementing iterative releases can mitigate risks associated with large-scale deployments, allowing for timely adjustments based on user feedback.

• Empowering the Scrum Master Role: Recognizing when to push for change and when to conserve energy for more impactful initiatives is vital for maintaining team morale and project success.

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For Agile professionals seeking deeper insights and real-life experiences, this episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast offers invaluable lessons on navigating complex team dynamics and leadership challenges.

Transcript

[Vasco Duarte]

Hey, how are you doing? I'm Vasco Duarte, your host on the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. And I've got some exciting news. So right now, as I record this, I'm holding in my hand the signed contract for our very first Global Agile Summit. We're all in and I couldn't wait to share this news with you. So mark your calendars. May 18th, 20th of 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. We're gonna have a transformative experience. We're putting together an event that is all about real life agile. It's not theory or buzzwords, it's practitioners sharing what's working, what's making an impact, and how they've overcome challenges that you too will have to face, or maybe even facing. Right now, we're bringing together the best stories in Agile. From product leaders to engineering wizards to business visionaries, these will be stories that will inspire you to action. This isn't just another conference. It's a chance to connect with the people that are shaping the future of Agile. And here's the best part. Right now we're in our super early bird phase and that means you can grab tickets at just 25% of the final price. Look, that's not just half off, it's half off of the half off. It's an incredible deal for our dedicated community members, just like you listening to this right now. So at the summit, day one will be all about hands on workshops. And days two and three, we'll dive into leadership, product strategy, coding, testing, and everything that makes Agile thrive in organizations. Right now remember, these are all first person, real life stories. Now whether you're a leader, a developer or part of a consulting company, this event is built to take your Agile game to the next level. So don't wait. Go to globalagilesummit.com and grab your ticket. Today, let's all make 2025 the year agile truly transforms your teams, your business and our industry. I'll see you all in Tallinn. And Remember, go to globalagilesummit.com and get your super early bird ticket right now. It only be available until the agenda is announced, so don't wait. Grab it right now. Right now that that's out of the way, onto the episode. Hello everybody. Welcome to one more week of the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. And this week, joining us from Finland, in fact, a neighborhood near where I live, is Ville Rayonen. Hey Wille, welcome to the show.

[Ville Rayonen]

Glad to join you.

[Vasco Duarte]

Absolutely. So Ville is a seasoned agilist and pattern enthusiast. He's co Authored two books, one on distributed machine control system patterns and another on Scrum patterns. Very apropos for this podcast, I'm sure we're going to talk about patterns for sure. I'm a big pattern fan as well and he's continually discovering patterns everywhere he looks. Currently he empowers individuals and teams as a freelance coach by creating focus and understanding Ville. That was a short intro. Tell us a little bit more about yourself and how did you end up becoming a Scrum Master?

[Ville Rayonen]

That's a while back actually becoming a Scrum Master. It's a path anyway, but sometimes you get a title, but it's a learning path anyways. So 2008 there was the financial crisis, at least here in Finland. And then my girlfriend, nowadays a wife, just lost her job and was searching for a new one and just got one from other city. And just before the door of opportunity closed and then we were traveling back and forth for half an year. I was like, okay, I think I have to move that it doesn't work otherwise. So. And at that time I was working as a researcher at university and I was doing software methodologies, courses and software and etc. And I was kind of what's the marketable skill I have that I could get a job in this market? Okay, it was quite hot that I'm still Linux in phone. Mobile phones was quite good market opportunity also and I knew Linux quite well that point, so that that was my way in. It was not my first job because that was joke. It's kind of ah, you are going to have the first job, a real job after being the university. I've been working it before my university career, so that was not the first time. So I kind of knew what it is and so, so I got a job in this area and I landed in this kind of case where we had a remote team from India working with some local people who were more senior. And I ended up kind of doing a lot of things around not actually implementing anything but tooling, creating help, helping guidelines, documentation, everything to kind of get the team forward. And that kind of came to Scrum mastering role quite fast. So, and that's kind of always in a remote setting. You kind of always burn one person to keep this remote team working. So I ended up being that guy.

[Vasco Duarte]

In that I would argue that there's always one person doing it in teams that work very well. It's probably different people at different times, but there's always one person trying to keep the whole picture together of course. And as we do as Scrum Masters try to keep the whole picture together. We sometimes also blunder our way into problems and failures. And of course today here on the podcast is Fail Monday. So we want to explore that question, Ville, the question of failure. Not because we like to dwell on failure, but rather because the stories are informative and we can take away from that lessons learned that all of us can apply before we need to make the same mistake. So Ville first, let's go through the story. Tell us the story first. We'll dive into the takeaways later. But what was that story of failure you have to share with us, Ville.

[Ville Rayonen]

So while back still being bit younger, Scrum Master, there was a system renewal project which itself is kind of failure mode. The smell of failure mode. If you have a system renewal, there's. There's always legitimate reasons for it, but most of them are not. You just want to renew something and. Well, in this case there was this person who there's quite a few people who were unwilling to work with this product owner. And this person was.

[Vasco Duarte]

How did that reveal itself? Like how did you assess that? Oh, there's people who don't want to work with this.

[Ville Rayonen]

They don't want to. They says absolutely said that they are not going to work with this person.

[Vasco Duarte]

Okay, that was obvious then.

[Ville Rayonen]

That was obvious. I was like, okay, so it cannot be that bad. I was thinking I'm kind of guy who can manage and discuss and be in relations with people. I'm kind of joyful person usually and try to be that to other people and kind of get great discussion. So what came out is this was highly opinionated product owner and this person really didn't ever listen anybody. He had really strong opinions and was following those ones. And that end up being case where there was no victory condition really. The product owner had the suitable amount of power which the product owner should have. But this case, that was also failure mode. So we had this system renewal which means that usually it's big bang release, always because you cannot. There's existing system which has lot of functions.

[Vasco Duarte]

That's a pattern or one would call it an anti pattern. Right?

[Ville Rayonen]

Yeah. And so the launch came and a storm of complaints came with the launch. And to my memory, something about 20% of customers were lost because of the system how it was at the launch. So the high opinions were creating quite a lot of distrust.

[Vasco Duarte]

What do you think created that dynamic? Okay, so system renewals are problematic, period. Right. Like there's very little upside on a system renewal. There's always the hope. But there's very little upside in reality. So of course that makes it already difficult. But in this case we have a team that wasn't necessarily very happy to work with the poor that I'm sure that made communication and even agreements very difficult. What else was contributing to this system renewal failure in your mind?

[Ville Rayonen]

So I think that was the biggest because you couldn't learn on the way anyway. The big bang was the big bang really which came the big wave of feedback. The people who said they are not going to work with this person, they didn't work with this person person. So the team was people who were willing to work with this person. So that. That was not so much the case. But. But even when the team members told this person that this, this is not something I would like to be have as a customer, the. The product owner still didn't listen. So what my learning is that sometimes you cannot save people from themselves. Some people are sometimes in wrong role. It just you cannot make them fit the role. So. And that's kind of further thing is kind of like when you have two if. When you can select choose the fights which you can fight and you can win. So if you spend a lot of energy in some fight you are going to lose anyways, you waste a lot of energy. So if there's something else which has bigger impact, spend the energy on that one. Yeah.

[Vasco Duarte]

So I guess one way to describe this project from your perspective is that this was a fight I could not win.

[Ville Rayonen]

Yeah.

[Vasco Duarte]

So how do you handle that though Wille? Because that can be extremely frustrating and demotivating. So what did you learn about yourself and about the Scrum Master role when we find ourselves in this kind of situation?

[Ville Rayonen]

I was trying and trying to the end. That was my job. I was trying until the end. And after the launch when we get the feedback, I was prepared in that sense that we were able to fix some of the stuff for the next day. But it still was too late.

[Vasco Duarte]

So when I think about this story, if let's I'm imagining that I'm there in that particular case. And I've been in enough system renewal projects to know how that feels. And what I'm thinking is that as a Scrum Master, I'm thinking okay, so we want to go live with this system. And people have insisted for whatever reason and the reasons in the end don't really matter, have insisted that this be a big bank release. Can we at least get some beta customers? Can we get some customers in this case?

[Ville Rayonen]

But the amount of beta customers was not significant. Enough and didn't make enough noise for this product owner to change their opinion.

[Vasco Duarte]

And that's one of the things that I would also think about is can we get some. I would call them antagonistic testers. So there are some testers who are just impressively good at finding problems and they are equally impressively good at describing the consequence of the problem. Right? Because sometimes testers are really good at finding problems, but they describe the problems as an engineering problem rather than a customer facing problem. So I would look for people within the organization that are able to create this image of the actual consequence of the problems and so that as a mitigating factor, right? Like try to create this. I called it antagonistic because the idea is that you really want to create tension in a collaborative way, right? Good tension, not bad tension, but you want to create tension because that's what drives thinking. Because when we create tension, then the PO has to think and they have to argument for keeping a problem in the system rather than just saying we won't fix it. Right? Like that there needs to be that need to create a conversation or even a discussion and if necessary, even a constructive argument about it. How do you see that? Like if you were able to go back and replay that story again, what were some of the strategies that you might have used in that project?

[Ville Rayonen]

I think I tried to have that one. So that's a sad story in that sense that all I tried, everything I tried, nothing really stick. So I tried to create a conversation like as a user, what the proto users, what they are telling, all that kind of discussion. But in this case, the opinions were so high valued for this person that they didn't really listen to anybody else. And that was the learning case that even I was talking with different people, what I could still try, what was something I could still, how I could make a small impact so it wouldn't be so bad. And that was the sad part. Nothing stick.

[Vasco Duarte]

And maybe that's a set of patterns we can look into and publish. But sometimes it is true that sometimes product owners are just in a world of their own. They don't listen to anyone and therefore end up with system renewal projects that end up crashing. All right, Ville, There was no. How do you call it? There was no happy ending to this story, but still a very informative story. So thank you for sharing that, Ville.

[Ville Rayonen]

No problem. Thank you.

[Vasco Duarte]

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