Business Analyst to Product Owner—More Than a Title Change | Joelle Tegwen

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches Episode: Business Analyst to Product Owner—More Than a Title Change | Joel Tekven
Release Date: July 18, 2025
Host: Vasco Duarte, Agile Coach, Certified Scrum Master, Certified Product Owner
Guest: Joel Tekven

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte welcomes Joel Tekven to discuss a critical transition within Agile teams: moving from a Business Analyst (BA) role to a Product Owner (PO) role. Joel shares his experiences, highlights common pitfalls, and offers practical strategies to ensure a successful transformation beyond just a title change.

Identifying the Anti-Pattern: BA to PO Transition

[01:21 - 02:34]

The conversation kicks off with Vasco introducing the topic of the day: the often problematic transition from Business Analyst to Product Owner. Joel identifies a prevalent anti-pattern in Agile teams:

“I think the worst product owner anti pattern I see is a BA who got a role change, a title change, and now they're a product owner. Except they don't know how to be a product owner.” ([01:50])

Joel emphasizes that merely changing titles without equipping individuals with the necessary skills and mindset leads to ineffective product ownership. Organizations sometimes mistakenly assume that a BA’s analytical skills seamlessly translate to the broader responsibilities of a PO, which isn't always the case.

Common Behavioral Shifts and Challenges

[02:34 - 05:41]

Vasco prompts Joel to delve deeper into the specific behaviors that hinder BAs transitioning into POs. Joel elaborates on the differences between the two roles:

“One of the biggest ones is that they really see themselves as a scribe and not a visionary.” ([03:29])

Joel points out that former BAs often focus heavily on managing tools like Jira, writing user stories, and handling administrative tasks. However, they may lack the visionary aspect of a PO, such as setting a product vision, understanding customer needs, and prioritizing features based on strategic metrics rather than gut feelings.

Vasco adds that this replication of the BA role within the PO context leads to overlooking critical PO responsibilities like defining the product vision and understanding the target customers. Joel agrees, highlighting the ease with which individuals revert to familiar BA habits when unsure about their new PO duties.

Strategies to Facilitate the Transition

[05:41 - 08:21]

Addressing the challenges, Vasco asks Joel about effective methods to help former BAs embrace their new roles as POs. Joel shares practical tools and techniques:

“One of the things...is to give them a format when they think about their epics and features that, starting with a hypothesis statement...” ([05:59])

By introducing structured frameworks, such as hypothesis statements, Joel helps new POs focus on defining the problems they aim to solve, formulating hypotheses for solutions, and establishing metrics to measure success. This approach encourages strategic thinking and aligns the team’s efforts with the overall product vision.

Joel also mentions the importance of elevating the conversation beyond story-level tasks to encompass higher-level strategic planning. This shift in perspective is crucial for POs to effectively guide their teams towards long-term goals.

Exemplary Product Ownership: A Case Study

[08:21 - 11:49]

To illustrate the qualities of an effective PO, Joel recounts his experience working with an outstanding Product Owner in a healthcare company:

“He really understood that vision piece of it. He understood the need to experiment and how to let that the team needed to figure out how to solve the problem.” ([08:21])

This PO excelled in setting a clear vision, fostering a culture of experimentation, and empowering the team to innovate. Joel praises his ability to remain patient and collaborative, especially when the team struggled to adapt to new methodologies:

“He had patience in letting them get to the next level... We collaborated together on it instead of him expressing that to the team.” ([09:10])

By continuously communicating the product’s North Star and focusing on customer value during sprint reviews, this PO ensured that the team remained aligned and motivated. Joel underscores the importance of such leadership in driving successful Agile transformations.

Balancing Vision and Patience

[11:12 - 12:46]

Vasco and Joel discuss the delicate balance a PO must maintain between being a visionary and exercising patience. While a clear and compelling vision is essential, it can be frustrating when the team doesn't immediately grasp or align with it. Joel explains that effective POs must persistently communicate and reinforce the vision while allowing the team the time and space to adapt:

“It's not an easy transition for them, just like it's not an easy transition for a product owner who's, you know, a retitled B.A.” ([11:49])

This balance ensures that both the PO and the team can navigate the challenges of their new dynamics without losing sight of their collective goals.

Conclusion and Further Engagement

[12:46 - End]

As the episode wraps up, Vasco encourages listeners to connect with Joel on LinkedIn for further insights. He also emphasizes the value of community learning and sharing experiences to enhance Agile practices.

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Key Takeaways

1. Role Clarity is Crucial: Transitioning from BA to PO involves more than a title change. It requires a shift from task-oriented activities to strategic vision setting.

2. Avoid Common Pitfalls: Former BAs may overly focus on administrative tasks and tool management, neglecting essential PO responsibilities like defining product vision and prioritizing based on customer value.

3. Implement Structured Frameworks: Using tools like hypothesis statements can help new POs develop a strategic mindset and align their teams with broader product goals.

4. Exemplary Leadership Inspires Teams: Effective POs demonstrate vision, patience, and collaboration, fostering an environment where teams can thrive and innovate.

5. Continuous Communication Reinforces Vision: Persistently conveying the product’s North Star and customer value ensures that the team remains aligned and motivated, even during challenging transitions.

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Notable Quotes

• “I think the worst product owner anti pattern I see is a BA who got a role change, a title change, and now they're a product owner. Except they don't know how to be a product owner.” — Joel Tekven ([01:50])

• “One of the biggest ones is that they really see themselves as a scribe and not a visionary.” — Joel Tekven ([03:29])

• “One of the things...is to give them a format when they think about their epics and features that, starting with a hypothesis statement...” — Joel Tekven ([05:59])

• “He really understood that vision piece of it. He understood the need to experiment and how to let that the team needed to figure out how to solve the problem.” — Joel Tekven ([08:21])

• “It's not an easy transition for them, just like it's not an easy transition for a product owner who's, you know, a retitled B.A.” — Joel Tekven ([11:49])

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Further Resources

For more insights and to connect with Joel Tekven, listeners are encouraged to visit his LinkedIn profile. Additionally, explore the Scrum Master Toolbox membership for access to over 700 hours of Agile content, live workshops, and a community of like-minded practitioners.

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This episode offers valuable lessons for organizations and individuals navigating the transition from Business Analyst to Product Owner. By recognizing common challenges and implementing strategic frameworks, teams can ensure that their Product Owners are not only well-titled but also well-equipped to drive product success.

Transcript

[Vasco]

Hey there Agile adventurer, just a quick question. What if for the price of a fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership. And it's your unfair advantage in the Agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership. That's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.

[Host]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our TGIF Friday and product owner episode this week with Joel Tekven. Hey Joel, welcome back.

[Joel Tekven]

Hey Vasco. Well, happy Friday.

[Host]

Happy Friday indeed. That's well said. Happy Friday everybody. So Friday is product owner episode here on the podcast and we'll talk about what great product owners act and think like in a minute. But before we go there, share with us Joelle, what might have been potentially the worst product under anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[Joel Tekven]

I think the worst product owner anti pattern I see is a BA who got a role change, a title change, and now they're a product owner. Except they don't know how to be a product owner. They don't know really what's involved in being a product owner and they're just kind of given this new sometimes the organization doesn't even really allow them to step into a true product ownership role. It's just a title change to them as opposed to actually stepping into that, that completely, that ownership piece of it.

[Host]

And one of the things that I'm reminded of when you say a BA that becomes a product owner, I've also seen other roles that become a product owner, right? Like because you know, if you adopt Scrum, quote unquote, then you need to have a product owner and then some people are just named product owners without ever being trained or understanding that. But what are some of the concrete specific behaviors that you see in that kind of transition from having a business analyst role, which has this specific focus and specific task orientation, to being a product owner role, which is significantly different? There are some things that overlap for sure, but it's also significantly different. What do you see are the common behaviors that business analysts bring with them to the product owner role that don't serve them well anymore in the proctor role.

[Joel Tekven]

So one of the biggest ones is that they really see themselves as a scribe and not a visionary. They see themselves as, you know, their job is to manage Jira and write as I want to, so that stories. And they think that's like the essence of their job is managing Jira or Rally or whatever your tool is, as opposed to setting a vision for where they want the product to go and understanding the customer and understanding the metrics that they need to in order to prioritize the work. They'll sometimes prioritize it just by a gut check, not actually going out and gathering the data and the customer sentiment. They don't have. Sometimes they don't have those kinds of skills. They're not thinking about as much like, here's the problem that we're trying to solve, here's the North Star we're going towards. They're used to somebody else setting that for them and telling them, instead of them crafting that vision and figuring out where that the team should go.

[Host]

Yeah. So it's almost like they are trying to replicate the business analyst role within the product owner role. And then they forget or perhaps aren't even trained or don't know about this. Other accountabilities for the product owner role, like setting the vision, defining the problems to solve, even defining, of course, the customers that we want to serve and so on.

[Joel Tekven]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

[Host]

When you think about.

[Joel Tekven]

It's so easy to fall into. It's easy for them to fall into that, that habit because that's what they've been doing for, you know, that's a strong muscle for them. And so it's, you know, when you're in this new space, it's easy and natural to fall back on what's comfortable, especially if you're not so sure, certain about what you're supposed to be doing. Because like you said, often they're not even trained.

[Host]

Yeah. And when you think about people that you've worked with in this position, then what have you learned about being able to help them to get beyond that and actually start perhaps understanding better and ultimately acting more like a po.

[Joel Tekven]

So one of the things, there's a few tools I've got. One of them is to give them a format when they think about their epics and features that, starting with a hypothesis statement, you know, so what's the problem that you're trying to solve and what's your hypothesis about how you're going to try to solve that and what metrics are you going to use to know whether or not you solved it? How do you know if you're on or off track? And sometimes you know, so they get this very kind of canned format of the user story. But if you can get them up out of weeds and give them a little structure at that higher level, it can start helping them shift their way of thinking about it and shifting how they, their understanding about it that their, that their job is up, higher up the, higher up the chain. And I don't think like Scrum doesn't have or even like much of the culture around Scrum. They focus a lot at the story level when they're talking about it out in industry instead of talking about those higher, bigger levels. So when I can bring their vision, when I can bring their mind up that their epics or features aren't like just one line, sentences or a laundry list of teams that they need to deal with, but instead of getting them to step back, I find that that really helps. That really helps them.

[Host]

Absolutely. And I really like that practical idea of starting with some templates that helps them to think about different questions because we need to make it very practical, especially if they haven't had any training because you can't easily replicate the two day training in a couple of hours of coaching and interaction. Right. So starting with a concrete tool can really help to get that, that process of thinking differently moving forward. But of course there are some great product owners out there as well. Joelle. So share with us the best potentially product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

[Joel Tekven]

So this was a Scrum master that I was, this was a product owner that I was working with at a medical company and they were part of a healthcare company. And he was really trying to set a team into a new way. He understood that vision piece of it. He understood the need to experiment and how to let that the team needed to figure out how to solve the problem. He really had all of that so deeply ingrained and in how he approached everything about what he did. He happened to be a big fan of the large scale Scrum format, which talks a lot about those kinds of things. That was a really good fit for him. And so we had this team of very skilled people who hadn't been working in this way and helped guide them like, okay, here's what we're trying to accomplish. Let's figure out what we need to do in order to get there. And he had patience in letting them get to the next level and. Or he, if he was frustrated, he'd sent that to me, not to them. You know, he really kept that frustration when they weren't going the way he wanted them to. We collaborated together on it instead of him expressing that to the team as they were working through how to operate in this new way, learning new technical skills, learning how to work on a cross functional, collaborative team. He really had all of those pieces down. He knew what the customer value was that he was driving towards and he talked about that in every single of Sprint review. Here's where we're trying to go. Here's our North Star, here's the progress that we made and let's talk about where we think we should go next.

[Host]

That ability to embody the vision and also to be patient with the team coming towards that vision, I think it's so valuable because it's kind of a double edged sword. Right. Because when you know the vision, that's a very important piece of the proctunal role. But it can feel very frustrating and demotivating when the others don't see the vision. So it's not enough to be a visionary. You also need to be patient in communicating and repeating and repeating and repeating that vision. Because not everybody gets there at the same time. Right?

[Joel Tekven]

Yes. And also if they're used to, you know, being heads down and being told what to do and, you know, being, you know, handed these little bits of work and not thinking about the vision, that's a really big shift for the team to. They also need to lift their head up and start looking at that North Star. And that's a whole new way of thinking about their world. And it's not an easy transition for them, just like it's not an easy transition for a product owner who's, you know, a retitled B.A.

[Host]

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, that was a great story, Joel. Thank you very much for sharing that with us. We're getting close to the end, but before we go, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing?

[Joel Tekven]

The best place to find me is on LinkedIn.

[Host]

All right.

[Joel Tekven]

I don't do the other social media platforms.

[Host]

Absolutely. We'll put the link on the show notes so that all of you can go and ask a follow up question, interact with Joelle, maybe share your story and share the parts of the episodes we did this week that most helped you. Why not? We learn as a community and therefore it's great to share what we learn from each other. Joel, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[Joel Tekven]

Thank you so much for having me. Vasco. It's an honor.

[Vasco]

All right, I hope you liked this episode, but before you hit next episode, here's the deal. This podcast is powered by people like you, the members who wanted more than just inspiration. They wanted real tools and real connection to people who are practicing agile. Every day we're talking access to over 700 hours of agile gold, CTO level strategy talks, Summit keynotes, live workshops, E courses, Deep Dive interviews, books, and if you're into no Estimates, we got the pioneers of no Estimates in those Deep Dive interviews as well. Agile Business Intelligence, creating Product Visions, coaching, your product owner courses, you name it. You'll get invites to monthly live Q&As with agile pioneers and practitioners, plus a private Slack community which is free of all of that AI slop you see everywhere. And of course without the flame wars. It's a community of practitioners that want to learn and thrive together. It's the best place to connect with community and learn together. So if this podcast has helped you before, imagine what you will get from this podcast membership. So head on over to scrummastertoolbox.org membership and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the [e-mail] membership because listening is great, it's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community.

[Joel Tekven]

Slack.

[Vasco]

We really hope you liked our show.

[Host]

And if you did, why not rate.

[Vasco]

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