Podcast Summary: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast

Episode: Coaching Product Owners to Be the Voice of the Customer | Steve Martin
Air Date: January 2, 2026
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Steve Martin (Agile Mastery Show, Agile Coach)

Overview

This episode dives into one of the most pivotal and sometimes misunderstood Agile roles: the Product Owner. Vasco Duarte and Steve Martin explore common anti-patterns, actionable coaching techniques, and share stories celebrating outstanding product ownership. The conversation is rich with practical advice for Scrum Masters, Agile coaches, product owners, and anyone striving to put the "customer" at the heart of Scrum.

Key Discussion Points

1. Common Product Owner Anti-Patterns

• Lack of Training and Coaching
  Steve observes that many product owners struggle simply due to not understanding their role properly:

  “Most of the time it is really like I say, lack of training, lack of coaching.” — Steve [03:44]

• Wrong Backgrounds
  Steve recounts seeing product owners who are really commercial or project managers “dressed up as POs,” often lacking focus on the customer.

  “I’ve worked with commercial managers that are dressed up as POs... project managers make really good product owners, by the way.” — Steve [02:00]

• Spread Too Thin
  Product owners responsible for multiple teams often lack time for meaningful engagement with each team and customer.
• Voice of Management, Not the Customer
  A critical anti-pattern is when POs act as mouthpieces for senior management, losing touch with end users:

  “Product owners who are basically the voice of senior management rather than being the voice of the customer.” — Steve [02:46]
  Explained succinctly by Vasco:
  “We call those proxies.” — Vasco [03:07]

2. Coaching Product Owners Out of Anti-Patterns

• Education and Resources
  Begin with foundational training:

  • Henrik Kniberg’s Product Owner video (YouTube, link promised in show notes)

    “That video is perfect... it’s still relevant today.” — Steve [04:33]

  • “Product Ownership” by Geoff Watts (book)
  • Formal courses (CSPO, ICAgile PO)

    “Two days and you learn everything that you need to learn in the role.” — Steve [05:20]

• Support from Scrum Masters and Team Leaders
  Emphasizes the need for a leadership coalition within teams:

  “Within the team there is leadership... roles of technical lead, Scrum Master and Product Owner can play a vital role... by working together.” — Steve [05:41] “Forming that relationship between those three and working together, setting out time in the week and just focusing on the customer...” — Steve [05:53]

3. Defining Great Product Ownership: A Success Story

• Profile of an Outstanding Product Owner—Rob Guard

  • Deep user focus:

    "He was absolutely obsessed with the user, his focus and everything that he did was around what is the problem, what is the pain point our users are having." — Steve [07:03]

  • Regular customer engagement:

    "He would have workshops with [customers] regularly to understand what pain points they were suffering and just be, literally be the voice of the customer." — Steve [07:38]

  • Driving innovation within engineering:

    "He would be pushing them, challenging them and trying to help them become more innovative." — Steve [08:00]

  • Telling the customer's story:

    "Real product ownership is about telling a story and being able to help the team to really empathize and understand what the pain is like for [the user], what the problem is happening for them so that they can then start thinking like the customer.” — Steve [09:13]

  • Impact: Helped teams continually place themselves in the users’ shoes, making better software.

  Vasco sums up:

  "The role of the [product owner] really is to help the team empathize with the user, the customer of the product." — Vasco [09:53]

4. Steve’s Resources and Community

• YouTube Channel: The Agile Mastery Show
• Online Community: The Agile Mastery Club (envisioned as a niche alternative to LinkedIn for Agile professionals)
• Mentorship: One-to-one and group programs available via his channels.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Anti-Patterns:
  "Product owners being spread across multiple teams, having very, very little time to focus on the team, focus on the customer." — Steve [02:43]
• Coaching:
  "If they have that willingness... we meet them where they are and help them to understand what good looks like..." — Steve [03:50]
• Leadership:
  "There is leadership... the roles of technical lead, Scrum Master and Product Owner can play a vital role in the leadership and the structure of the team..." — Steve [05:41]
• On Great Product Owners:
  "He was absolutely obsessed with the user... everything that he did was around what is the problem, what is the pain point that our users are having." — Steve [07:03] "Real product ownership is about telling a story and being able to help the team to really empathize and understand what the pain is like for them..." — Steve [09:13]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:00] Anti-patterns in Product Ownership
• [03:44] How to Coach Product Owners; Key Resources and Training
• [05:41] The Importance of Team Leadership Triad (Tech Lead, Scrum Master, Product Owner)
• [06:45] Case Study: A Great Product Owner in Action (Rob Guard)
• [09:53] Helping Teams Empathize with the User
• [10:13] Steve Martin’s Community & Resources

Tone and Language

Practical, supportive, and candid—Steve Martin shares lessons from the trenches, offering both compassion for struggling product owners and inspiration through personal anecdotes. Vasco’s facilitation is upbeat, conversational, and focused on drawing actionable wisdom for listeners.

Takeaways

• True product ownership means championing the customer's perspective at every step.
• Many product owner issues stem from lack of training and clarity around their role.
• Scrum Masters and tech leads must partner with product owners to focus team energy on solving real user problems.
• The best product owners are storytellers who enable empathy within the team.

For links to resources mentioned, check the show notes for the episode.