B (4:27)

By the way, love the way you describe the context and what is happening. One of the things we talked about it yesterday, actually one of the things that can happen sometimes is that teams get into this state of learned helplessness. Right. Like for example, when a manager comes to you. And this is especially true if we're talking about people who are starting their career or in the beginning of their career who are much more deferring to authority at that point. Although generations change and it might not be exactly like that in your case. So when I hear you describe this story, my experience expectation is that this is probably younger people that are maybe in the beginning or early stages of their career for whom the organization's authority is very important. Is that so? Is that how you see it?

C (5:21)

I would say that is accurate in terms of like how long some of these people have been in the organization. Like half the team has only been in the organization for like six months or less and the other half of the team has been there for longer. So it's more about like how long they've been in the org versus like their actual age.

B (5:41)

Okay. Because the other thing that comes to mind if we think about this is when we defer to authority. And I'm now thinking about as a team member, when we defer to authority, we are implicitly accepting that there's a better way of doing things. But, and this is the dangerous part, when we do that and it's not our way, we, we are also deferring to authority the responsibility of the success of that way of working. Right. Like so as a team member, if I, let's just use this as an example. If I listen to the project manager who tells me this is how you estimate and then I estimate the way the project manager tells me, I'm also implicitly saying it's not my problem, I'm just going to do what you're telling me. Oh, and by the way, if it fails, I can point the finger at you and say this is how you told me to do it. This is a very comfortable position for the team though not be blue eyed about this. It's very comfortable to be in the position where you can just say, hey, I did what you told me. Because the other person has no defense against that. They can just tell, oh, but you forgot this, or maybe this part needs to be different, whatever. And that cycle just repeats over and over again. And then the team stands back and says, oh, but it's not my fault, you told me how to do it. So do you feel that the team might be getting into this kind of dynamic or do you see something else happening?

C (7:06)

Yeah, I mean I haven't really considered that. So now I'm starting to reflect on that and I'm taking a pause and I'm thinking about it and I'm thinking that could be true. So I mean, I guess I would.

B (7:24)

Have to.

C (7:27)

Discover a little bit more about what's going on, maybe try to delve into what's truly driving this behavior and why they're doing it. So I'm starting to think about this stuff now. So that's an interesting idea.

B (7:44)

So if you think that this might be a possibility, a couple of experiments that you could run to try to assess is this really that way would be to just ask, hey, how do you. And now talking to the team, how do you think we should do it? Because if the answer that comes, well, we were told to do it this way. It can be either submissiveness or that position of comfort. Right. It's not my problem, just I'm just typing here, you know, just tell me what to do. Like this, just tell me what to do. Pattern is quite self destructive because obviously the best you can do is then know what keys to press. And software development is really not about the typing. Right. Like in Newsflash, if people think that software development is about the typing, AI is coming for your job. Right. Like software development is about generating ideas, it's about building off on each other's ideas and creating something much bigger than the original request might have even intimated as possible. Right. So it might be good to have conversations with the team members about, hey, what if we tried, hey, have we tried this? Just kind of creating the idea of possibility and then seeing how the team reacts. Because if the team is constantly stepping back, it might be out of fear or out of comfort. Both of these are perfectly possible. But when you think about this idea of maybe having this type of conversation experiments with the team, how does it feel for you, Alex?

C (9:13)

Yeah, I mean, I think you're sparking in me an idea that I could try a small experiment maybe. And the small experiment I think I would try is to perhaps ask some open ended questions in our next retrospective, which is next week by the way. In the next retrospective I could actually design a retrospective around asking those kinds of open ended questions about what the team thinks they are empowered to do versus what management is asking them to do. I think that would be an interesting experiment to try. I like my experiments to be small and I like them to be safe and I like them to be just good enough for now. They don't have to be like good experiments. So I think I could probably do that in our team retrospective.

B (10:05)

Yeah, absolutely. That sounds like a great idea. And perhaps one thought to potentially seed conversation ideas for you is to try to assess where are the different team members? Right. Like just mental notes as to which team members are leaning into the conversation that you're starting, which team members are stepping back and then also trying to figure out post retrospective in the power hierarchies that are within the team, where are those different team members? Because let's not forget, and this is something for us to always have in mind as coaches and scrum masters, is that there is a power structure inside the team that has importance and influence over everything the team as a system does. And assessing not only the individual reactions, but also the power structure. Reactions to certain ideas can be very insightful, not necessarily because they give us solutions, because they might not, but also to understand where might be kind of angles to continue the conversation after the retrospective.

C (11:14)

Yeah, that's definitely sparked another experimental idea in my brain about like maybe I facilitate a session where we use something like delegation cards or decision making cards, where we have conversations about decision making authority in the team in the organization. I think that could be a really interesting and safe way to talk about those kinds of topics.

B (11:40)

Awesome. That's the goal of these type of conversations. Just generate ideas for experiments because we don't need to get stuck. We can always try something else. Yep.

C (11:50)

And I just always make sure that my experiments are small, safe, and good enough for now.

B (11:55)

And good enough for now. That's a great way to put it. Thank you for having that conversation with us, Alex.

C (12:01)

My pleasure.

A (12:05)

All right, I hope you liked this episode, but before you hit next episode, here's the deal. This podcast is powered by people like you, the members who wanted more than just inspiration. They wanted real tools and real connection to people who are practicing Agile. Every day we're talking access to over 700 hours of agile gold, CTO level strategy talks, Summit keynotes, live workshops, E courses, Deep Dive interviews, books, and if you're into no estimates, we got pioneers of no estimates in those Deep Dive interviews as well. Agile Business Intelligence, creating product visions, coaching, your product owner courses, you name it. You'll get invites to monthly live Q&As with agile pioneers and practitioners, plus a private Slack community which is free of all of that AI slop you see everywhere. And of course, without the flame wars. It's a community of practitioners that want to learn and thrive together. It's the best place to connect with community and learn together. So if this podcast has helped you before, imagine what you will get from this podcast membership. So head on over to scrummaster toolbox.org membership and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the details@scrummastertoolbox.org membership because listening is great. It's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community.

B (13:55)

Slack we really hope you liked our show. And if you did, why not rate this podcast on Stitcher or itunes? Share this podcast and let other Scrum masters know about this valuable resource for their work. Remember that sharing is caring.