Summary5 min read

Podcast Summary

Demonstrating Your Value When the Market Questions Agile Roles

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Natalia Curusi
Release Date: December 17, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Vasco Duarte and guest Natalia Curusi tackle a pressing challenge for Agile practitioners: how to prove the value of Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches in a market that is increasingly skeptical of Agile roles, particularly amidst layoffs and the rise of AI. Natalia shares her first-hand perspective on shrinking opportunities for Agile professionals, and together they explore strategies for adapting, thriving, and communicating value in uncertain times.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shrinking Demand for Agile Roles

[01:45–03:49] Natalia expresses concern over a decreasing demand for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches, observing widespread layoffs and market skepticism, especially post-COVID and with the acceleration of AI adoption.
- Quote:
  
  “We have seen a decrease in the demand for agility on the market in general. ... My challenge is how we fit ourselves as Scrum Masters, as coaches, into that kind of AI era.”
  — Natalia Curusi [01:45]
[03:49–05:15] Vasco and Natalia discuss whether the decline is specific to agility or if it reflects broader contractions in the software industry.
- Quote:
  
  “Are we seeing that there is less demand for agility ... or are we experiencing an overall lower demand of all software-related roles?”
  — Vasco Duarte [04:12]

2. Perceptions and Business Decisions Affecting Agile Roles

[05:15–06:26] Natalia describes seeing Scrum Masters as the first to be let go, with their work often blended with other roles (tester + Scrum Master, BA + Scrum Master), indicating businesses see Scrum Mastery as expendable rather than essential.
- Quote:
  
  “They usually let go Scrum Masters and they go into the blending of the role … It’s not enough to be a Scrum Master anymore.”
  — Natalia Curusi [05:35]
[06:26–08:03] Vasco points out that decision-makers often reduce headcount based on who seems least essential to product delivery (i.e., those not directly coding, designing, or testing). He highlights how value is measured in accounting terms rather than long-term team health.
- Quote:
  
  “When you are the head of a department and you think, okay, what can I do so that I have the least disruption possible short-term, the answer is very easy. The people who don't code, don't design ...”
  — Vasco Duarte [07:20]

3. The Intangible Value of Scrum Masters

[08:03–10:48] Both agree that the unique, catalyst or glue value of Scrum Masters—improving team collaboration, facilitating communication, and enabling continuous improvement—is difficult to quantify, and its loss is often only felt months later.
- Quote:
  
  “As you pointed to, we all need to have the answer to that question, right? ... What value are we bringing to the teams and the organizations that we work with?”
  — Vasco Duarte [09:18]
- Quote:
  
  “The biggest value … is to let the team and organization in a better state than they find it … to put in place the continuous improvement that is sustainable and scalable.”
  — Natalia Curusi [09:50]
[10:48–12:58] Vasco and Natalia discuss the situational, adaptable nature of Scrum Mastery—always shifting between facilitation, coaching, teaching, and supporting, according to the team's evolving needs.
- Quote:
  
  “A Scrum Master probably is a very situational role … you need to approach the team to see what this team actually needs.”
  — Natalia Curusi [11:42]

4. The Cost of Context-Switching and the Value of Continuity

[12:58–14:26] Vasco warns that replacing Scrum Masters disrupts team dynamics, resetting the progress teams make toward high performance—drawing analogies to sports and the Tuckman Model (norming, storming, performing).
- Quote:
  
  “When you change Scrum Masters, it's like going back to square zero … it's like thinking about a performing team, whether it is a ballet or football … If you change the context all the time, you are contributing to the team going back to square zero.”
  — Vasco Duarte [13:45]

5. Making Value Visible with Metrics

[14:26–15:54] Natalia stresses the need to demonstrate value with tangible metrics (predictability, release frequency, team wellbeing) since qualitative benefits are hard to communicate to non-Agile stakeholders.
- Quote:
  
  “Sometimes we need to put some metrics and … businesses … they understand numbers. … If you don’t have any kind of metrics for your work … you probably will be the first person to go out of organization.”
  — Natalia Curusi [14:39]
She highlights the risk of being perceived as an “agile evangelist” rather than a practical contributor if value isn’t clearly articulated.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Market Contraction:

“I have seen on the market … it's not enough to be a Scrum Master anymore … You need to be a BA plus Scrum Master.”
— Natalia Curusi [05:39]
On Difficult Choices:

“Most of the work that the teams do is really doing the work to get the product out the door … So the key question is—what value are we bringing as Scrum Masters?”
— Vasco Duarte [07:43]
On the Nature of the Role:

“A Scrum Master need to put on the coach, then to put a head of teacher, then to put a head of facilitator … and sometimes this happens several times per day.”
— Natalia Curusi [12:01]
On Demonstrating Value:

“As long as you cannot bring something practical to the organization, you probably will be the first person to go out of organization.”
— Natalia Curusi [15:37]

Important Timestamps

01:45 – Natalia introduces the core challenge of Agile role value and relevance.
05:15–06:26 – Trending practice of blending and eliminating Scrum Master roles.
09:48 – Natalia articulates her view of Agile coaches' real value.
11:42 – The adaptability and situational leadership required of Scrum Masters.
13:45 – Impact of changing Scrum Masters on team performance.
14:39 – The need to use quantitative metrics to communicate value.

Takeaways for Agile Practitioners

Be Ready to Articulate Concrete Value:
Identify and communicate how your work improves measurable outcomes (predictability, release cadence, morale).
Adopt Flexibility:
The ideal Scrum Master adapts to team and organizational needs daily—be prepared to shift hats as facilitator, coach, teacher, or mentor.
Collect and Share Metrics:
While qualitative improvements are vital, business leaders understand numbers—track and report on metrics that matter to your stakeholders.
Emphasize Long-term Impact:
Highlight how consistent Agile leadership prevents regression to lower-performing team states.
Stay Attuned to Market Trends:
Be aware of the growing expectation that Scrum Masters bring additional skills and be proactive in upskilling where needed.

Closing

Vasco and Natalia remind listeners that in times of skepticism and change, demonstrating the practical, situational value of Agile roles is more important than ever. The episode ends with a teaser for the next discussion focused on measuring success for Scrum Masters.

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Transcript21 lines

[00:04]
A
Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question. What if for the price of a fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership and it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership, that's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast. Hello everybody. Welcome to our Wednesday question. This week we have with us Natalia Kurusi. Hey Natalia, welcome back.
[01:19]
B
Hello Asco.
[01:21]
A
So Natalia, on Wednesdays we explore a coaching challenge that we have and we do this because we need to practice coaching. And listening to a coaching conversation is one way to practice, but also because you have a topic in mind that you want to discuss and share with the community. So what is the challenging topic you have in mind for us this week, Natalia?
[01:46]
B
Yeah Vasco, actually my challenging topic probably this is very common to many agile coaches and Scrum Masters now in the market. So we have seen a decrease in the demand of agility on the market in general. It could be related to market bull versions after Covid situation or it could be related race of AI. So now my challenge is how we feed ourselves as Scrum Masters, as coaches, into that kind of AI era, into that kind of AI trend and how much of AI we can use in our day by day coaching and Scrum mastering. That's one thing and another thing, how we demonstrate to the market, to the business that our skill set is still valuable, that there should not be the Scrum Masters that should go first from the company when the layoffs happens. So that's, that's kind of my biggest challenge now to explore and I probably don't have an answer for that right now.
[02:51]
A
And I think that we are as a society and as a community of practitioners also discovering the answers to those questions. So let's explore the topic a little bit. So you're talking about maybe there's less demand, maybe there's an Impact of AI. Like which of this would you like to tackle first? Because I think that they will. Either of this would take us in different directions.
[03:14]
B
Yeah, maybe let's start with the demand. Maybe let's see what is the reason why on the market now we see a decrease in the demand and to the agility in general. It could lead to AI or it could lead to something else. But I think I see many of my friends and good professionals that they are out of a job right now and they are like open for opportunities. Not in Europe, not here in a park. There is not a lot of opportunities for agility right now. I hope that the market will return back. But yeah, the situation, it is like it is.
[03:50]
A
So I think this is a very important question and there's a risk that we remain stuck in our current situation and forget the context of where we are. Right. Like we had a very large expansion of the software industry ever since the 1990s. There was yes, the big.com bubble burst in 2000 or around that 98, 2000, 2001. But other than that it's been expanding constantly. And the question that I have in mind is are we seeing that there is less demand for agility, which is a valid potential reality, or are we seeing that there is overall a contraction in the software specific industry which is where agility is the strongest and therefore also affecting people that have, let's call them agile roles. Although you and I and most of our listeners know that they are just software roles that were developed by us, the practitioners with experience understanding that we needed a different approach. But so let's call them match our roles for now. So the key question for me is are we stuck in a lower demand of agility in the software world or are we actually experiencing an overall contraction, an overall lower demand of all software related roles? What's your experience, Natalia?
[05:16]
B
I just think that this is a little bit of both. Like for three years I'm already in Australia. I have seen the market in Australia. Not sure what is happening in Europe right now, but here in Australia that's a little bit of both. So there are a lot of layoffs in the software and first persons that are asked to go Visa coaches and Scrum Masters, to be honest, because I think there is a perception from the market or from the businesses that these kind of roles doesn't bring a lot of value. I think so they bring the least of value. Like they are ready to give like highly technical persons like developers and testers, but they usually let go Scrum Masters and they go into the blending of the role. So they can ask tester to combine the role of tester plus Scrum Master. I have seen on the market here a lot of these blended roles about. It's not enough to be a Scrum Master anymore or a coach anymore. You need to be a BA plus Scrum Master. You need to be a tester plus Scrum Master. So I think the business is from some reason because of a restricted budget. So because of different expectations, they expect that Scrum Master is not a dedicated role anymore. That's kind of my, my feeling.
[06:26]
A
Yeah, I see the same and I see other worrying trends. Like on top of that trend, I see another trend which is the, the people deciding who to fire are the ones that are actually not adding any value. And I'll give a very specific example. Let's say that you have a, a team lead that has risen through the ranks that has become like a department head. And they now need to, they have maybe five teams and they now need to downsize. They need to, let's say five teams, maybe one person per team, they need to fire one person per team. So five people they need to fire. And normally these things come from the top. It's not like, you know, we see these people as low performers. No, that's an excuse. Right. The idea is that the budget says, hey, you need to reduce the headcount run rate by five people. So you need to decide which of the five people. And if I'm a department head and I look at my teams and every team these days is very lean already. Like, even if you account for one Scrum Master per team, and most companies don't have one Scrum Master per team, but even if you account for that, it's still going to be testers, developers working with a product owner. Some teams have designers, others don't. So most of the work that the teams do is really doing the work to get the product out the door. So when you are the head of a department and you think, okay, what can I do so that I have the least disruption possible short term, the answer is very easy. The people who don't code, don't design.
[08:00]
B
And don't test, you get rid of Scrum Masters, right?
[08:03]
A
Well, so Scrum Masters would be the most obvious. But then instead of having two architects for the department, maybe you have only one architect. Instead of having five designers, maybe you have only three designers, right? So these are all very difficult decisions that are very often done as a mathematical or accounting challenge. Now you and I Know that when you take a catalyst role, a glue role, like you said, from a team, the problems will only appear 3, 4, 5, even a year from now, right? 3, 4, 5 months or a year from now. So it's very easy for a manager doing the mental arithmetic. What is the change I can do to satisfy my boss? And then still, I mean we all know this, that in hierarchical organizations the layers that get cut are the middle layers because those are quote unquote the ones that add less value. And this for me is a very natural situation, right? Like the banking industry went through a contraction like that a few years ago and it's quite natural that this would happen here. But, but for me there's a question you're asking that is incredibly important for us, let alone the companies that hire us, but for us, which is what value are we bringing to the teams and the organizations that we work with? And I think that as you pointed to, we all need to have the answer to that question, right? Nobody else will tell us what that is. We need to be able to answer that question. And I don't think there's a single answer to that question. So I'm curious to, to your thoughts as to when you think about the value that you bring as a catalyst, as a glue role to the organizations and teams you work with, how would you define that?
[09:49]
B
Yeah, that's interesting. So I think the best and the biggest value that a Scrum master or a coach can bring to the organization, this is to let the team and organization in a better state that they find it like to become like a catalyst to become, to put in place the continuous improvement that is sustainable and scalable. This means that that person will prepare that continuous improvement to continue when he's not in the organization. So he put this kind of change in place where the change is self sustainable. So it's self scalable, self sustainable. Unfortunately these kind of changes are not very easy to measure. So if we put some measures in place, we probably will discuss about measures as well. But I mean for businesses is very hard to, to demonstrate the value of a Scrum master because this is so qualitative, it's not quantitative.
[10:49]
A
So let me, let me think through this with you. So let's take a simple thing, right? Like a team needs organization, whatever that organization is. Like some teams need somebody to help them talk to each other. So somebody needs to create the space for developers to talk to each other and to other teams. Other teams need to have their work structured. So maybe a kanban board or daily Meetings or whatever. Other teams need help in translating what they are doing to stakeholders because they're very good technical technically, but they can't explain what they are doing to people outside that are not technical. Every team needs something different. So what do you think about that? Like the role of a Scrum Master as kind of the glue role that adapts the team to the environment around them so that the team can perform. What do you think about that?
[11:43]
B
Yeah, so I think Scrum Master probably is a very situational role. Like you say, situational. This means that the Scrum Master should be flexible and adaptable to what the team need to meet the team and the clients where they are like not to expect. Okay, but I thought that you have very kind of high degree of maturity and agility and you are not agile. That's why I'm not going to work with you or I'm going to do this training and that training because I need, I have that in my checklist and my Scrum Master checklist. I think a good Scrum Master and a good coach as well, they need to approach the team to see, okay, what this team actually needs. Because, you know, so a Scrum Master need to put in the coach, he need to put ahead of teacher, then to put ahead of facilitator, then to put a head of coach. And sometimes this happens several times per day. So you'd say, like, okay, how good my team is in that. Can they do that themselves? Do they have a theoretical knowledge? No, I'm going back into coaching. I go into back into teaching when I go into mentoring, when I go into coaching. And you are right, if the team is not very mature, you need to bring them at that state that they will be ready for coaching and then you can step out of a team. So, yeah, very situational role. Yeah.
[12:58]
A
And what you just said is so incredibly important because if you take that forward, if a Scrum Master is a situational or contextual and adaptable role because the reality of the team may change from day to day. I usually say that every time you come to work you have a different team. Maybe somebody's sick, maybe there's stakeholder pressure another day, maybe there's a new team member the other day. These are all different teams, Right? Meaning it's the same people in some cases. But the expectations, the pressure, let's say the anxiety to perform is different every day. And when you think about it, you start to realize that context is so incredibly important that when you change Scrum Masters is like going back to Square zero. Because that Scrum Master now needs to learn everything about the team, needs to create all the relationships with the team. And when you start to think about that, it's like thinking about a performing team, whether it is a ballet performing team or a football players performing team. This is a performing team. Right. They need to perform. And if you change the context all the time, you are contributing to the team going back to square zero. Right. Like this whole idea of the norming, storming, performing model by Tucker. So I think that this brings up the value of a Scrum Master. Even just continuity is value that the Scrum Master brings to the team.
[14:26]
B
Yeah. From another perspective, it's very hard to explain what we just say, the situational context to business. In all the business, sometimes they understand numbers. So that's why then I discuss about metrics and I need to discuss with metrics with the businesses. Especially when I decided to become a coach as well, enterprise agile coach. So they asked me, okay, what you can bring to the team. And sometimes we need to put some metrics and that metrics are related to predictability, for example, to, I don't know, to increase the speed of release of a number of releases per year.
[15:01]
A
But also, well being, you can pick.
[15:02]
B
Up something to demonstrate your value, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, I understand that that metrics could be gained very easy, but we still need metrics because as you say, you cannot demonstrate your value for organization if you don't have any kind of metrics for your work. And that's important. And I think for more, like many of our Scrum Masters that I have seen, they are some kind of agile evangelists. So, you know, they do the Scrum by the book and they believe in that kind of, I don't know, that kind of theoretical concepts. As long as you cannot bring something practical to the organization, you probably will be the first person to go out of organization. So I think you need, as you say, you need to demonstrate the value. You need to be able to demonstrate, demonstrate the practical value of your work.
[15:55]
A
We'll talk more about that tomorrow when we discuss success for Scrum Masters. Natalia, thank you very much for this reflection. It was very useful. Thank you.
[16:04]
B
Thank you, Vasco. See you tomorrow.
[16:11]
A
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