Podcast Summary: "Don't Scale Dysfunction—Fix the Team First"

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Karim Harbott
Date: November 6, 2025

Overview

In this "Success Thursday" episode, Vasco Duarte and guest Karim Harbott dig into fundamental ideas about measuring success for Scrum Masters and Agile coaches. The central theme is clear: Organizations should fix problems at the team level before scaling, as scaling dysfunction only amplifies issues. Drawing on Karim's experience as an Agile coach, trainer, and non-executive director, the conversation highlights actionable strategies for defining, measuring, and driving team success—eschewing vanity metrics in favor of real value.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Karim's Favorite Retrospective Format

[01:21–03:39]

• Karim admits he's "always slightly struggled with retros," especially with the more playful formats. Instead, he prefers systems modeling, which he learned about through the book Scaling Lean & Agile Development.

• Systems modeling makes visible the many interconnected elements within a team and demonstrates how a change in one area can affect others.

• Quote:

  "Modeling complex systems and trying to show how each thing impacts everything else ... I've found to be a very powerful way of identifying experiments that may or may not improve the team effectiveness over time." — Karim Harbott [02:53]

• He especially recommends causal loop diagrams to uncover systemic causes and experiment areas.

2. Karim's Facilitation Approach

[03:39–04:33]

• Karim uses a relaxed, informal style—encouraging people to stand up, shout out ideas, and engage in spontaneous dialogue.
• While mindful of personality types (balancing introverts and extroverts), he values active participation over traditional facilitation rules.
• Quote:

  "I probably break a lot of the traditional rules of facilitation because I just kind of get everyone up and we're all shouting things out ... It's kind of a much more informal about it." — Karim Harbott [03:48]

3. Defining Success for Scrum Masters & Agile Coaches

[04:33–06:45]

• Karim draws an analogy between football managers and Scrum Masters: the team's success = the manager’s (or Scrum Master’s) success.
• True success isn't about personal outputs ("number of retros" or "reports created") but rather on improving the team’s effectiveness and helping them achieve their goals.
• Quote:

  "It's about, is the team better than the team was before in whichever way we've defined better ... your measures are outside of your control. ... I enabled others to be better." — Karim Harbott [05:36]

4. Getting Organizations to Define Success

[06:45–08:38]

• Karim starts with "inquiry, not advocacy" but notes that most leaders want teams to deliver value, not just outputs.
• Effective success measures are a blend of:
  • Delivery/process effectiveness
  • Customer and internal metrics
  • Product management effectiveness
  • Team culture
• A "team balanced scorecard" can capture these multiple dimensions.
• Quote:

  "You're trying to get them out of the project and outputs mindset more into the product and outcomes mindset." — Karim Harbott [07:52]

5. Moving Beyond "Easy" Metrics

[08:38–10:32]

• Leaders often default to easy, misleading metrics (e.g., velocity, code written, bugs found). Karim suggests always linking team-level goals to organizational objectives.

• He leverages his board experience to tie strategy and team work to high-level outcomes (e.g., revenue, Net Promoter Score, customer impact).

• Quote:

  "Will delivering more story points help increase revenue? ... Could I deliver more story points without delivering more revenue or more value? Yes. Okay, so it's not story points we want. What is it?" — Karim Harbott [09:52]

• If a measure (e.g., velocity) doesn't connect to a strategic goal, it's not a true indicator of success.

6. The Dangers of Scaling Dysfunction

[10:32–11:57]

• Modern hype, such as with AI, can drive focus onto "more" rather than "better."
• Karim warns that scaling an immature or ineffective process simply multiplies the dysfunction.
• Quote:

  "When you scale, you get more of what you're doing. And if what you're doing is just not valuable, you'll get more not valuable. ... So don't scale dysfunction." — Karim Harbott [10:55]

• Memorable exchange:
  • Vasco: "I like the phrase don't scale dysfunction because you can scale it."
  • Karim: "Actually, you can scale it very easily. It's the easiest thing to scale dysfunction." [11:38–11:49]

Notable Quotes

| Time | Speaker | Quote | |--------|---------|-------| | 02:53 | Karim | "Modeling complex systems ... is a very powerful way of identifying experiments that may or may not improve the team effectiveness over time." | | 03:48 | Karim | "I probably break a lot of the traditional rules of facilitation because I just kind of get everyone up and we're all shouting things out ..." | | 05:36 | Karim | "It's about, is the team better than the team was before in whichever way we've defined better ... I enabled others to be better." | | 07:52 | Karim | "You're trying to get them out of the project and outputs mindset more into the product and outcomes mindset." | | 09:52 | Karim | "Will delivering more story points help increase revenue? ... so it's not story points we want. What is it?" | | 10:55 | Karim | "When you scale, you get more of what you're doing. And if what you're doing is just not valuable, you'll get more not valuable. ... So don't scale dysfunction." | | 11:49 | Karim | "It's the easiest thing to scale dysfunction." |

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------| | 01:21 | Karim's reflection on retrospectives and systems modeling | | 03:39 | Approaches to facilitation: causal loop diagrams, group participation | | 04:33 | How Karim defines success for Scrum Masters and Agile coaches | | 06:45 | Techniques for helping organizations define team success | | 08:38 | Converting "easy" metrics to outcome-based conversations | | 10:32 | Dangers of scaling dysfunction and AI-driven metric distortions | | 11:38 | Closing thoughts and "don't scale dysfunction" quip |

Conclusion

This episode offers rich, candid insight into the mindset of an experienced Agile leader. Karim Harbott challenges listeners to move beyond superficial measures—like lines of code or story points—and stay fiercely focused on the team’s value delivery and alignment with organizational goals. His message is a warning: If you scale a broken system, you amplify the dysfunction—so fix the team first.

The conversation is a must-listen for Scrum Masters, Agile coaches, and leaders intent on creating meaningful, impactful change within their organizations.