B (3:23)

Yeah, sure. So one of the big things that showed up as a behavior was really the frustration that you could hear and see with the team as they try to explore different requirements and understand exactly what was needed. Without the product owner being there to answer the questions on behalf of themselves or other stakeholders who are not present in these meetings with the team. The frustration really boiled to the top. So.

B (3:59)

People, they end up in circles, going around in circles and conversations with no real end game or understanding of what is the direction that we need to take without that product owner in the room.

A (4:18)

Yeah, absolutely. And I would want to highlight that one thing that you said, the frustration, because a lot of the consequences of an absent PO comes out in people's feelings. Not because they are feelings, but because they are sentiments that highlight something. Frustration is typically when you want to do something but you can't. You put effort into it, but you can't get it done. Right. It's a little bit like Sisyphus, the story of Sisyphus.

B (4:46)

Right.

A (4:47)

You push a boulder up the hill and then the boulder just comes crawling down because there's no other way.

B (4:52)

Right.

A (4:53)

Like the gravity will always be there. And when the product owner is absent, gravity will always pull us towards conflict, lack of direction, not being able to complete the work because there are open and unanswered questions. And I think that aspect that you mentioned is really important for us to keep tabs on. Right. Like what's the level of frustration here? Because obviously not all product owners will be 100% absent. Some product owners will be, I don't know, 5% absent, but it might be the critical 5%. And then frustration comes up. Right. Like, so it's important for us to recognize how it shows up, how that absence of the PO shows up in the team, so that we can recognize it even early on before it becomes a problem. Right?

B (5:41)

Yeah. It really does demoralize the team. And it doesn't help a team come together and have that strong sense of belonging and having a purpose and a direction and someone who's there to show them the way. Essentially, when they have all those questions that they definitely have, they're curious, they need to understand the details.

B (6:10)

And those questions need answered. Absolutely.

A (6:14)

All right. But there aren't only difficult product owners or anti patterns. There are also some amazing product owners out there. So, Scott, share with us, potentially the best product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

B (6:29)

Yeah, I would have to say that the one that I'm working with just now, who is the polar opposite of the one we just previously mentioned and is always present in every meeting and always makes themselves available.

B (6:48)

For team members who need them. Even outside Scrum events and you know, those ad hoc meetings, they're always.

B (6:59)

Active on the teams chat and that dev chat that we have, where.

B (7:05)

The developers are constantly chatting away and solving, asking questions, the product owner is always active in there and answering as quickly as possible so that there are no blockers. So they are fantastic in showing up.

B (7:24)

But not only that, this product owner is particularly.

B (7:30)

Good at providing.

B (7:33)

That vision and.

B (7:37)

Understanding of where we're going and providing the team with the purpose that helps drive us forward, but also very empathetic actually as well. This product owner, they care for the team and it really shows up in how they show up on a day to day basis through the conversations with them.

B (8:01)

You can feel it, you know, in the meetings they care for the team.

B (8:09)

We always have stretch goals. So they do have, you know, there is that aspect to we're pushing hard every sprint, but with the support that they have from the product owner, it really helps us achieve those.

A (8:29)

Absolutely. I want to specifically focus on one aspect of your answer, which is this idea that they are an empathetic product owner. And here empathy, in my mind at least, and you can tell me if that's true for you, in my mind means that they are able to understand when the team is suffering, when the team is thriving, and they are able to interact with the team from a perspective of wanting to help them succeed rather than feeling blamed. Because there's that difference. If a PO is not empathetic, when the team expresses a need or a lack, they may feel blamed instead, which kind of makes them withdraw even more and not want to interact with the team and then become more absent. While the empathetic PO will lean into it. If the team is missing something, the empathetic view will lean into it and figure out why and what is actually missing and how can we work around that, even though not necessarily giving the team what they are asking for, but rather understanding what they need and giving it to them. Is that how you see the role of empathy in this specific case of the product owner?

B (9:39)

Yeah, exactly. They are someone who is not on the back foot and on the defense when perhaps challenged or they see something that is perhaps not what they were expecting from the team, but they're rather more curious as to how they, you know, what's shown up, why has this happened and how can I help in thinking about it more from the perspective of the team member rather than Thinking, well, we set out to achieve this and you said you would do this and we've not managed it. And being on that sort of back foot, being defensive about it, they're really more curious for the person and how, what are the steps we need to take to achieve what we hope. So, yeah, that's the empathetic product owner.

A (10:35)

Absolutely. I really like that aspect of the role of empathy here because when we think about product owner, we often think about their. Their expertise. Right. Like how well they understand the customer, the market, the product, et cetera. But in here it shows how a personal ability, because skill is. Empathy is a skill that we can develop. Right. Of course it can be innate, but we can develop it further. But it shows how a personal ability can transform the role of the PO and can really help the team. Because sometimes, and this has happened many times in my career, I don't know if you recognize something like this from your past, because sometimes the team is the best technical expert, of course, but also domain expert, like product expert. They understand the product better than the product owner. And the product owner brings other abilities like thinking about business cases and markets and messaging and packaging and all of that. Right. But when there's empathy, the product owner can lean into the team and the team's requests and create something that is better than any of them could do separately. Right. Than the PO or the team could do on their own without the other.

B (11:51)

Yeah, they have great trust and hand in hand with that empathy. Trust is probably another thing. They trust the team and their expertise, and with that trust, it really allows, gives the team empowerment. So they use their own initiative.

B (12:13)

Take on things and push boundaries. So.

B (12:18)

If the product owners are having a conversation, for example, with one of the team members, it might get technical. And the product owner, perhaps it goes above their level of understanding. But what I've heard them say on numerous occasions is, okay, sounds good, I trust you. Go for it. And that really shows, you know, the.

B (12:41)

Level of trust it has in that team member. He may not understand the nuts and bolts of the solution. Perhaps it's been shared, but, you know, has the. He has the trust there. And the team are empowered to, you know, take those ideas and run with them. Absolutely.

A (12:59)

Scott, it's been a pleasure to have you here. We're getting close to the end, though. Before we go, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing? Scott?

B (13:09)

Yeah, so they can jump onto my LinkedIn.

B (13:15)

I don't know if you've got that handy. I can share that with you. You have fantastic. And yeah, get in touch. Please contact me if you want to find out more or just have a chat. That'd be amazing. I'd love to connect. Always love to chat with people around the world on Scrum and Agile and ways of working.

A (13:37)

Absolutely. And we are a community, so reach out, talk with Scott, have a conversation. There's so much we can learn from each other and that's how we grow as practitioners. A community of practitioners. Scott, thank you very much for being here, for being so generous with your time and your knowledge.

B (13:57)

You're welcome. Thanks very much for the opportunity. Vasco, it's been an absolute pleasure.

A (14:04)

All right, I hope you liked this episode, but before you hit next episode, here's the deal. This podcast is powered by people like you, the members who wanted more than just inspiration. They wanted real tools and real connection to people who are practicing Agile. Every day we're talking access to over 700 hours of agile gold, CTO level strategy talks, summit keynotes, live workshops, E courses, Deep Dive interviews, books, and if you're into no estimates, we got the pioneers of no estimates in those Deep Dive interviews as well. Agile Business Intelligence, creating product visions, coaching your product owner courses, you name it. You'll get invites to monthly live Q&As with agile pioneers and practitioners, plus a private Slack community which is free of all of that AI slop you see everywhere. And of course, without the flame wars, it's a community of practitioners that want to learn and and thrive together. It's the best place to connect with community and learn together. So if this podcast has helped you before, imagine what you will get from this podcast membership. So head on over to scrummastertoolbox.org membership and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the details@scrummastertoolbox.org membership because listening is great, it's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community. Slack.

A (15:56)

We really hope you liked our show. And if you did, why not rate this podcast on Stitcher or itunes. Share this podcast and let other Scrum masters know about this valuable resource for their work. Remember that sharing is caring.