Empathy and Availability Define Excellent Product Ownership | Scott Smith

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Empathy and Availability Define Excellent Product Ownership

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Scott Smith
Date: December 5, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Vasco Duarte sits down with Scott Smith to explore what makes both poor and excellent product owners within Agile teams. They dive into anti-patterns—focusing especially on absent product owners—then contrast this with the positive impact of empathetic and highly available product owners. The conversation emphasizes practical behaviors, emotional impact on teams, and tangible advice for Agile practitioners seeking to foster healthier, more productive team dynamics.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The "Absent Product Owner" Anti-Pattern

[01:41] - [06:10]

• Description:
  Scott recounts experiences with product owners who failed to participate in Scrum events (e.g., Sprint Planning, Review, Retro, and Daily Scrums).
• Impact on Teams:
  • Lack of vision and direction for the team.
  • Team ends up "going around in circles" ([03:59]), unable to clarify requirements or move forward confidently.
  • Heightened team frustration and demoralization due to unanswered questions and persistent blockers.
• Behavioral Consequences:
  • Team discussions become repetitive and unproductive, with no decisiveness.
  • Frustration surfaces as a "sentiment that highlights something" ([04:18]), signaling underlying dysfunction.
• Memorable Comparison:
  • Vasco likens this scenario to Sisyphus:

    "You push a boulder up the hill and then the boulder just comes crawling down because there's no other way." ([04:46])

  • The absence of a PO means teams are inevitably pulled toward conflict and lack of progress.

2. Recognizing Absenteeism Early

[04:53] - [06:14]

• Early Warning Signs:
  • Not all POs are entirely absent—some might be present 95% of the time, but missing during critical moments.
  • Paying attention to signs of frustration helps Scrum Masters intervene early.
• Team Dynamics:
  • The absence of a PO, even part-time, erodes team motivation, sense of purpose, and belonging.

3. Exemplifying Excellent Product Ownership

[06:14] - [08:29]

• Availability and Engagement:
  • Scott contrasts the poor PO with an exemplary one who is "the polar opposite"—always present in meetings and readily available outside formal events ([06:29]).
  • Responsiveness on digital channels (team chat, dev chat); swift answers to prevent blockers.
• Vision and Purpose:
  • Effective POs continuously articulate the team’s direction and purpose.
• Empathy:
  • The best POs demonstrate empathy, genuinely caring about the team's wellbeing.
  • This empathy is "felt" in daily interactions and meetings ([08:01]).
• Stretch Goals:
  • While ambitious, these POs encourage achievement by coupling high expectations with strong support.

4. Deep Dive: Empathy, Trust, and Empowerment

[08:29] - [12:41]

• Empathy Defined:
  • Vasco:

    "Empathy... means that they are able to understand when the team is suffering, when the team is thriving, and they are able to interact with the team from a perspective of wanting to help them succeed rather than feeling blamed." ([08:29])

  • Empathetic POs respond to challenges with curiosity instead of defensiveness ([09:39]), seeking solutions collaboratively.
• Building Trust:
  • Trust naturally follows empathy—great POs trust their teams’ expertise, empowering members to take initiative.
  • Scott recounts:

    "What I've heard them say on numerous occasions is, okay, sounds good, I trust you. Go for it." ([12:18])

  • Even when conversations become technical, empowered teams are given autonomy to deliver.
• Integration of Abilities:
  • Empathetic POs bridge domain knowledge gaps by relying on the team while bringing their own business insights and market awareness.

5. Closing Thoughts and Community

[12:59] - [13:57]

• Practical Advice:
  • Cultivating empathy and availability as intentional skills can transform product ownership and team performance.
• Connecting with Scott:
  • Scott invites listeners to connect on LinkedIn to continue the discussion and share knowledge within the Agile community.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On frustration from PO absence:
  "The frustration really boiled to the top... People, they end up in circles, going around in circles and conversations with no real end game or understanding of what is the direction that we need to take..."
  — Scott Smith [03:59]

• On noticing frustration:
  “Frustration is typically when you want to do something but you can't. You put effort into it, but you can't get it done. Right. It's a little bit like Sisyphus, the story of Sisyphus...”
  — Vasco Duarte [04:18]

• On the best POs:
  "They are fantastic in showing up... always makes themselves available, even outside Scrum events... always active in there and answering as quickly as possible so that there are no blockers."
  — Scott Smith [06:59]

• On empathy and curiosity:
  "They're rather more curious as to how they, you know, what's shown up, why has this happened and how can I help in thinking about it more from the perspective of the team member..."
  — Scott Smith [09:39]

• On trust and empowerment:
  “Sounds good, I trust you. Go for it.”
  — Scott Smith, quoting an exemplary PO [12:18]

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Key Takeaways for Listeners

• Absence and unavailability in a product owner is a primary source of team dysfunction, stemming both from blocked progress and emotional frustration.
• Empathy and trust are not "nice-to-haves"—they are functional skills that elevate team performance and morale.
• Intentional, day-to-day engagement from the PO, even via simple, quick interactions, makes a significant difference.
• Product owners should strive for a blend of vision-setting, availability, emotional intelligence, and the humility to empower technical experts on their teams.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:41] — Worst PO Anti-Pattern: The Absent Product Owner
• [03:23] — Impact on Team Motivation and Feelings
• [06:29] — What Excellent Product Owners Do
• [08:29] — Empathy in Product Ownership
• [11:51] — Trust and Empowerment
• [13:09] — Scott’s contact info and closing remarks

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This summary captures the heart of Vasco and Scott’s conversation and serves as a practical guide for anyone aiming to refine product ownership or support Scrum teams in their Agile journey.

Transcript

[A]

Hey there, agile adventurer, just a quick question. What if for the price of a fancy coffee or half a pizza, you could unlock over 700 hours of the best agile content on the planet? That's audio, video, E courses, books, presentations, all that you can think of. But you can also join live calls with world class practitioners and hang out in a flame war free and AI slop clean slack with the sharpest minds in the game. Oh, and yes, you get direct access to me, Vasko, your Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. No, this is not a drill. It's this Scrum Master Toolbox membership. And it's your unfair advantage in the agile world. So if you want to know more, go check out scrummastertoolbox.org membership. That's scrummastertoolbox.org Membership. And check out all the goodies we have for you. Do it now. But if you're not doing it now, let's listen to the podcast.

Hello everybody. Today is Friday. Great, Scott. We have Scott with us this week. Hey Scott, welcome back.

[B]

Thanks Vasco. Great to be here.

[A]

Absolutely. It's great to have you here on Friday. DGIF as they say. And we're going to talk product owner. We'll talk about great product owners later. But first, Scott, share with us potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[B]

Yeah, I'd have to say without a doubt the example that really jumps to mind is a product owner that I worked with who would often not attend the Scrum events. So our Sprint planning review, retro daily Scrums so was never present.

This was of course super detrimental to the team. Lack of.

You know, vision, lack of direction, lack of clarity. No one there to answer the questions that the team had and provide that.

Super critical direction that they really need. Sprint by Sprint. So that's probably the worst scenario that I can think of.

[A]

Can you give a few examples of how that surfaced? Because of course there's many ways of being absent as a product owner. In fact, the absent PO is one of the most cited anti patterns here on the podcast on Fridays. But what were the actual practical ways in which this showed up? And I don't mean necessarily, okay, they didn't show up on the daily meetings. Of course that's evident if they were absent. But also how it showed up in the team, motivation, the ability to solve problems, the team's people, the personal feelings of the people in the team. How did that absence show up when it came to teams? Their own interactions internally and maybe even potential interactions with other Teams.

[B]

Yeah, sure. So one of the big things that showed up as a behavior was really the frustration that you could hear and see with the team as they try to explore different requirements and understand exactly what was needed. Without the product owner being there to answer the questions on behalf of themselves or other stakeholders who are not present in these meetings with the team. The frustration really boiled to the top. So.

People, they end up in circles, going around in circles and conversations with no real end game or understanding of what is the direction that we need to take without that product owner in the room.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. And I would want to highlight that one thing that you said, the frustration, because a lot of the consequences of an absent PO comes out in people's feelings. Not because they are feelings, but because they are sentiments that highlight something. Frustration is typically when you want to do something but you can't. You put effort into it, but you can't get it done. Right. It's a little bit like Sisyphus, the story of Sisyphus.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You push a boulder up the hill and then the boulder just comes crawling down because there's no other way.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like the gravity will always be there. And when the product owner is absent, gravity will always pull us towards conflict, lack of direction, not being able to complete the work because there are open and unanswered questions. And I think that aspect that you mentioned is really important for us to keep tabs on. Right. Like what's the level of frustration here? Because obviously not all product owners will be 100% absent. Some product owners will be, I don't know, 5% absent, but it might be the critical 5%. And then frustration comes up. Right. Like, so it's important for us to recognize how it shows up, how that absence of the PO shows up in the team, so that we can recognize it even early on before it becomes a problem. Right?

[B]

Yeah. It really does demoralize the team. And it doesn't help a team come together and have that strong sense of belonging and having a purpose and a direction and someone who's there to show them the way. Essentially, when they have all those questions that they definitely have, they're curious, they need to understand the details.

And those questions need answered. Absolutely.

[A]

All right. But there aren't only difficult product owners or anti patterns. There are also some amazing product owners out there. So, Scott, share with us, potentially the best product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

[B]

Yeah, I would have to say that the one that I'm working with just now, who is the polar opposite of the one we just previously mentioned and is always present in every meeting and always makes themselves available.

For team members who need them. Even outside Scrum events and you know, those ad hoc meetings, they're always.

Active on the teams chat and that dev chat that we have, where.

The developers are constantly chatting away and solving, asking questions, the product owner is always active in there and answering as quickly as possible so that there are no blockers. So they are fantastic in showing up.

But not only that, this product owner is particularly.

Good at providing.

That vision and.

Understanding of where we're going and providing the team with the purpose that helps drive us forward, but also very empathetic actually as well. This product owner, they care for the team and it really shows up in how they show up on a day to day basis through the conversations with them.

You can feel it, you know, in the meetings they care for the team.

We always have stretch goals. So they do have, you know, there is that aspect to we're pushing hard every sprint, but with the support that they have from the product owner, it really helps us achieve those.

[A]

Absolutely. I want to specifically focus on one aspect of your answer, which is this idea that they are an empathetic product owner. And here empathy, in my mind at least, and you can tell me if that's true for you, in my mind means that they are able to understand when the team is suffering, when the team is thriving, and they are able to interact with the team from a perspective of wanting to help them succeed rather than feeling blamed. Because there's that difference. If a PO is not empathetic, when the team expresses a need or a lack, they may feel blamed instead, which kind of makes them withdraw even more and not want to interact with the team and then become more absent. While the empathetic PO will lean into it. If the team is missing something, the empathetic view will lean into it and figure out why and what is actually missing and how can we work around that, even though not necessarily giving the team what they are asking for, but rather understanding what they need and giving it to them. Is that how you see the role of empathy in this specific case of the product owner?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. They are someone who is not on the back foot and on the defense when perhaps challenged or they see something that is perhaps not what they were expecting from the team, but they're rather more curious as to how they, you know, what's shown up, why has this happened and how can I help in thinking about it more from the perspective of the team member rather than Thinking, well, we set out to achieve this and you said you would do this and we've not managed it. And being on that sort of back foot, being defensive about it, they're really more curious for the person and how, what are the steps we need to take to achieve what we hope. So, yeah, that's the empathetic product owner.

[A]

Absolutely. I really like that aspect of the role of empathy here because when we think about product owner, we often think about their. Their expertise. Right. Like how well they understand the customer, the market, the product, et cetera. But in here it shows how a personal ability, because skill is. Empathy is a skill that we can develop. Right. Of course it can be innate, but we can develop it further. But it shows how a personal ability can transform the role of the PO and can really help the team. Because sometimes, and this has happened many times in my career, I don't know if you recognize something like this from your past, because sometimes the team is the best technical expert, of course, but also domain expert, like product expert. They understand the product better than the product owner. And the product owner brings other abilities like thinking about business cases and markets and messaging and packaging and all of that. Right. But when there's empathy, the product owner can lean into the team and the team's requests and create something that is better than any of them could do separately. Right. Than the PO or the team could do on their own without the other.

[B]

Yeah, they have great trust and hand in hand with that empathy. Trust is probably another thing. They trust the team and their expertise, and with that trust, it really allows, gives the team empowerment. So they use their own initiative.

Take on things and push boundaries. So.

If the product owners are having a conversation, for example, with one of the team members, it might get technical. And the product owner, perhaps it goes above their level of understanding. But what I've heard them say on numerous occasions is, okay, sounds good, I trust you. Go for it. And that really shows, you know, the.

Level of trust it has in that team member. He may not understand the nuts and bolts of the solution. Perhaps it's been shared, but, you know, has the. He has the trust there. And the team are empowered to, you know, take those ideas and run with them. Absolutely.

[A]

Scott, it's been a pleasure to have you here. We're getting close to the end, though. Before we go, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing? Scott?

[B]

Yeah, so they can jump onto my LinkedIn.

I don't know if you've got that handy. I can share that with you. You have fantastic. And yeah, get in touch. Please contact me if you want to find out more or just have a chat. That'd be amazing. I'd love to connect. Always love to chat with people around the world on Scrum and Agile and ways of working.

[A]

Absolutely. And we are a community, so reach out, talk with Scott, have a conversation. There's so much we can learn from each other and that's how we grow as practitioners. A community of practitioners. Scott, thank you very much for being here, for being so generous with your time and your knowledge.

[B]

You're welcome. Thanks very much for the opportunity. Vasco, it's been an absolute pleasure.

[A]

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