Podcast Summary: Empathy and Availability Define Excellent Product Ownership

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Scott Smith
Date: December 5, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Vasco Duarte sits down with Scott Smith to explore what makes both poor and excellent product owners within Agile teams. They dive into anti-patterns—focusing especially on absent product owners—then contrast this with the positive impact of empathetic and highly available product owners. The conversation emphasizes practical behaviors, emotional impact on teams, and tangible advice for Agile practitioners seeking to foster healthier, more productive team dynamics.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The "Absent Product Owner" Anti-Pattern

[01:41] - [06:10]

• Description:
  Scott recounts experiences with product owners who failed to participate in Scrum events (e.g., Sprint Planning, Review, Retro, and Daily Scrums).
• Impact on Teams:
  • Lack of vision and direction for the team.
  • Team ends up "going around in circles" ([03:59]), unable to clarify requirements or move forward confidently.
  • Heightened team frustration and demoralization due to unanswered questions and persistent blockers.
• Behavioral Consequences:
  • Team discussions become repetitive and unproductive, with no decisiveness.
  • Frustration surfaces as a "sentiment that highlights something" ([04:18]), signaling underlying dysfunction.
• Memorable Comparison:
  • Vasco likens this scenario to Sisyphus:

    "You push a boulder up the hill and then the boulder just comes crawling down because there's no other way." ([04:46])

  • The absence of a PO means teams are inevitably pulled toward conflict and lack of progress.

2. Recognizing Absenteeism Early

[04:53] - [06:14]

• Early Warning Signs:
  • Not all POs are entirely absent—some might be present 95% of the time, but missing during critical moments.
  • Paying attention to signs of frustration helps Scrum Masters intervene early.
• Team Dynamics:
  • The absence of a PO, even part-time, erodes team motivation, sense of purpose, and belonging.

3. Exemplifying Excellent Product Ownership

[06:14] - [08:29]

• Availability and Engagement:
  • Scott contrasts the poor PO with an exemplary one who is "the polar opposite"—always present in meetings and readily available outside formal events ([06:29]).
  • Responsiveness on digital channels (team chat, dev chat); swift answers to prevent blockers.
• Vision and Purpose:
  • Effective POs continuously articulate the team’s direction and purpose.
• Empathy:
  • The best POs demonstrate empathy, genuinely caring about the team's wellbeing.
  • This empathy is "felt" in daily interactions and meetings ([08:01]).
• Stretch Goals:
  • While ambitious, these POs encourage achievement by coupling high expectations with strong support.

4. Deep Dive: Empathy, Trust, and Empowerment

[08:29] - [12:41]

• Empathy Defined:
  • Vasco:

    "Empathy... means that they are able to understand when the team is suffering, when the team is thriving, and they are able to interact with the team from a perspective of wanting to help them succeed rather than feeling blamed." ([08:29])

  • Empathetic POs respond to challenges with curiosity instead of defensiveness ([09:39]), seeking solutions collaboratively.
• Building Trust:
  • Trust naturally follows empathy—great POs trust their teams’ expertise, empowering members to take initiative.
  • Scott recounts:

    "What I've heard them say on numerous occasions is, okay, sounds good, I trust you. Go for it." ([12:18])

  • Even when conversations become technical, empowered teams are given autonomy to deliver.
• Integration of Abilities:
  • Empathetic POs bridge domain knowledge gaps by relying on the team while bringing their own business insights and market awareness.

5. Closing Thoughts and Community

[12:59] - [13:57]

• Practical Advice:
  • Cultivating empathy and availability as intentional skills can transform product ownership and team performance.
• Connecting with Scott:
  • Scott invites listeners to connect on LinkedIn to continue the discussion and share knowledge within the Agile community.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On frustration from PO absence:
  "The frustration really boiled to the top... People, they end up in circles, going around in circles and conversations with no real end game or understanding of what is the direction that we need to take..."
  — Scott Smith [03:59]

• On noticing frustration:
  “Frustration is typically when you want to do something but you can't. You put effort into it, but you can't get it done. Right. It's a little bit like Sisyphus, the story of Sisyphus...”
  — Vasco Duarte [04:18]

• On the best POs:
  "They are fantastic in showing up... always makes themselves available, even outside Scrum events... always active in there and answering as quickly as possible so that there are no blockers."
  — Scott Smith [06:59]

• On empathy and curiosity:
  "They're rather more curious as to how they, you know, what's shown up, why has this happened and how can I help in thinking about it more from the perspective of the team member..."
  — Scott Smith [09:39]

• On trust and empowerment:
  “Sounds good, I trust you. Go for it.”
  — Scott Smith, quoting an exemplary PO [12:18]

Key Takeaways for Listeners

• Absence and unavailability in a product owner is a primary source of team dysfunction, stemming both from blocked progress and emotional frustration.
• Empathy and trust are not "nice-to-haves"—they are functional skills that elevate team performance and morale.
• Intentional, day-to-day engagement from the PO, even via simple, quick interactions, makes a significant difference.
• Product owners should strive for a blend of vision-setting, availability, emotional intelligence, and the humility to empower technical experts on their teams.

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:41] — Worst PO Anti-Pattern: The Absent Product Owner
• [03:23] — Impact on Team Motivation and Feelings
• [06:29] — What Excellent Product Owners Do
• [08:29] — Empathy in Product Ownership
• [11:51] — Trust and Empowerment
• [13:09] — Scott’s contact info and closing remarks

This summary captures the heart of Vasco and Scott’s conversation and serves as a practical guide for anyone aiming to refine product ownership or support Scrum teams in their Agile journey.