From Defensive to Collaborative Product Ownership | Season Hughes

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches Episode: From Defensive to Collaborative Product Ownership | Susan Hughes Host: Vasco Duarte Release Date: February 28, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte, a seasoned Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Master, sits down with Susan Hughes, an experienced Scrum Master and Program Manager. The conversation delves deep into the dynamics of product ownership within Agile teams, exploring common pitfalls and highlighting the traits that distinguish exceptional product owners.

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Identifying Anti-Patterns in Product Ownership

Susan Hughes opens the discussion by addressing the challenges that arise when product owners fall into counterproductive behaviors, commonly referred to as "anti-patterns."

Susan Hughes [02:44]: "What might have been potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career."

Susan refrains from labeling any individual as the "worst" product owner but instead focuses on behaviors that hinder team dynamics. She recounts an incident where a product owner’s approach during backlog refinement meetings inadvertently put the development team on the defensive.

Susan Hughes [04:00]: "The way that they would ask it I could see would put the team on the defense. Like we need to do this because if we don't, this is going to break our tools...the tone of their voice...made them feel like they needed to defend or justify their work."

This defensive stance not only strains the relationship between the product owner and the development team but also stifles open communication and collaboration.

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Transitioning from Defensive to Collaborative Ownership

Recognizing the negative impact of such anti-patterns, Susan emphasizes the importance of fostering a respectful and inquisitive environment.

Susan Hughes [06:30]: "What helps for me is instead of going to people and saying, well, why are we doing this? I say help me understand."

By modeling this change in communication, the product owner can transform tense interactions into productive dialogues. Susan shares a pivotal moment from her one-on-one with the problematic product owner, where introducing the phrase "help me understand" led to immediate positive shifts in team dynamics.

Susan Hughes [07:15]: "They came in very tense, like ready to defend themselves...the tension just left their body and you could see, oh, like we want to help this person. We're on the same page."

This small yet significant adjustment not only alleviated defensiveness but also enhanced mutual respect and collaboration within the team.

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Characteristics of Exceptional Product Owners

Transitioning to the brighter side, Susan Hughes highlights the qualities that make product owners truly effective and invaluable to their teams.

1. Caring for the Team:

   Great product owners prioritize the well-being of their team members, recognizing that a motivated and supported team is crucial for success.

   Susan Hughes [09:20]: "The great product owners that I've worked with care about the people on the team and how they are feeling and what they're going through..."

2. Focus on Customers:

   They maintain a strong emphasis on understanding and advocating for the customer's needs, ensuring that the product aligns with user expectations and market demands.

   Susan Hughes [11:10]: "Great product owners have advocated for having customers in Sprint reviews...they don't see it as being beneath them to make sure that the backlog is prioritized."

3. Effective Backlog Management:

   Exceptional product owners ensure that the product backlog is well-organized, prioritized, and adaptable to change, serving as a vital tool for guiding the team's efforts.

   Susan Hughes [12:45]: "The backlog is the tool, right? The product is the outcome, the backlog is the tool. And it needs to be in shape."

Susan shares personal experiences working with outstanding product owners who embody these traits, illustrating how their commitment to team welfare, customer-centric approaches, and meticulous backlog management drive high performance and healthy work environments.

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Practical Takeaways for Scrum Masters and Product Owners

Throughout the episode, Susan Hughes offers actionable advice for both Scrum Masters and product owners aiming to enhance their collaboration and effectiveness:

• Establish Regular One-on-Ones: Maintaining open lines of communication through regular meetings can help address and rectify issues before they escalate.

• Model Respectful Communication: Simple changes in language, such as shifting from "why" to "help me understand," can significantly improve team interactions.

• Prioritize People Alongside Product: Balancing focus on product goals with genuine care for team members fosters a supportive and productive environment.

• Engage with Real Customers: Direct interaction with actual users provides invaluable insights that internal testing cannot replicate, ensuring the product truly meets market needs.

Susan Hughes [13:26]: "Three commonalities of product owners are caring about the team, the customers, and the backlog. All of them have that."

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Conclusion

In wrapping up, Susan Hughes encourages Scrum Masters and product owners to continue honing their skills and supporting each other in their Agile journeys.

Susan Hughes [14:20]: "For all of you Scrum Masters who are out there listening, thank you for your dedication to sharpening your skills...you're not alone and you're out there doing really good work."

Her heartfelt message serves as a reminder of the collective effort required to foster effective Agile teams and successful product outcomes.

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Connect with Susan Hughes

For those interested in learning more or connecting with Susan Hughes, she can be found on LinkedIn by searching her unique name or looking for her profile containing "anything nerdy."

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Stay tuned for more episodes of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, where Vasco Duarte continues to bring you actionable insights and inspiring conversations from Agile practitioners around the globe.

Transcript

[Pasco Duarte]

Hi there. Pasco Duarte here, your host. I wanted to share a story with you. You know how sometimes Agile just feels like following another checklist when like processes and frameworks feel more important than what we are trying to achieve and sometimes even like handcuffs. I was talking to a customer of the Global Agile Summit and he used a term that kind of stuck in my he said, I have Agile fatigue. And I've heard that a lot from people since then. But here's the thing, it doesn't have to be this way. So we started thinking and at the Global Agile Summit, which is happening this May, we're bringing together practitioners who've actually done that, who've broken free from this, you know, install the framework kind of mindset. We want to focus the summit on real life, first person stories of Agile all succeeding that inspire you to action. We're talking real experiences, practical solutions, and of course, amazing insights from leaders like Gojkoacic, who will be one of the keynote speakers, and Jurgen Apelo, who will be one of the keynote speakers as well. If you're ready to leave the Agile fatigue behind, just join us in Dalit. The early birth tickets are now available@the globalagilesummit.com and mark your calendar. We will have workshops on May 18th, that's a Sunday. And then the conference itself will happen on May 19th and 20th of 2025 in Tallinn, Estonia. So let's make Agile exciting again. And remember, go to agile globalagilesummit.com that is, and get your early birth ticket. Now, it will only be available until early March, so grab it now. And now onto the episode. Hello everybody. Welcome to our DGIF and product owner episode this week with Season Hughes. Hey, Susan. Welcome back.

[Susan Hughes]

Thank you. I hope you all have amazing plans for the weekend.

[Pasco Duarte]

Absolutely. And Happy Friday. As Sison just said, so product owner it is. That's what we're going to talk about today. We'll describe what great product owners look and sound like in a minute. But first, do share with us the opposite of that. What might have been potentially the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[Susan Hughes]

Okay. I'm actually not going to talk about the worst product owner that I have worked with just because it's still, I'm still working through that. There's just stuff there. Yeah. So if, if you're in a similar situation again, it's important to know that that's okay. And it's, it's okay to have been in places where you're still trying to figure it out and maybe you're feeling like a little bit hurt by things. So we're going to talk about the second, maybe worst anti pattern that I've seen from a product owner. So I just wanted to put that out there and be honest. And this was a pretty interesting situation with a product owner for an engineering team. And this came up particularly when we had our weekly backlog refinement meeting. And the intentions of this product owner were curiosity and wanting to have the output or outcome of having the backlog prioritized. Like absolutely great things for a product owner to be thinking about. But what would happen was the developers would talk about some work that they were doing or how they wanted to do the work, or they might propose some work for the backlog to say address tech debt or make process optimizations. And the way that the product owner would ask it was by saying why? Why do we need to do this? Completely valid question. And I actually wish that more product owners had this spirit of curiosity and wanting to deeply understand the work. But the way that they would ask it I could see would put the team on the defense. Like we need to do this because if we don't, this is going to break our tools or we need to do this because it's going to save us some time. Just very much the tone of their voice, I could read their body language. It just changed because the way that they were being asked about their work made them feel like they needed to defend or justify their work or maybe even that their expertise was being questioned, like not the intention. And I ended up talking to this product owner in one of our one on ones. So here's another tool. If you're not having regular one on ones with your product owner, get that on the calendar. It's a great way to see how you can support them and how they're feeling about the team. This was one of our regular one on ones. And I just said, hey, do you notice what happens when this occurs? The way that the team is being questioned? And it was something that he picked up on. And I said, here's something that's worked for me that you could try. Like when I'm coaching, I've realized I can't make people do anything, but I can offer, here's my experience and what's worked for me. You can take it or leave it or take it and make it your own. And I said, what helps for me is instead of going to people and saying, well, why are we doing this? I say help me understand. And I realize how very Lucky I got because he was willing to try this and he exactly asked it in that way. And this, what seems like a small change, was the most immediate impact I have ever seen from any change on any team. You could see that when they proposed something or described how they wanted to work and this person said, help me understand. Like they came in very tense, like ready to defend themselves and you could see that tension just leave their body and you could see, oh, like we want to help this person. We're on the same page, we're on the same team. Like they got excited to be able to explain this work that they wanted to do. And instead of defense and like an us versus them, like this is another change from the Scrum guide I really liked is it's no more development team and product owner, it's just developers product owner. We're all on one team. This was curiosity and conversation and really good discussions and backlog refinement about why we're doing this work. And everyone felt respected and got what they needed from the meeting.

[Pasco Duarte]

Yeah. And that's actually a very important part, if there's something we can contribute, is to help people feel respected, not by changing anyone, but by just as you said as an example, have that one on one conversation. Hey, have you noticed how. And then what if we would try something like. Right. Like just being present, understanding what is going on and instead of trying to change everybody or everything, we could just suggest, well, there's these other options. Right. Do they help you still? Right. Because when you're asking why, you have a good thought, good intention in mind. But how about using this instead for the same purpose.

[Susan Hughes]

Exactly. And respect and courage are two of our values in Scrum and it's being able to provide that safety to people and teams to be able to practice them. That's a big role. I think as a Scrum master is ensuring that.

[Pasco Duarte]

Absolutely. So of course this is what a anti pattern sounds like. But there are amazing product owners out there. Big shout out to all of you. It's not an easy job. So congratulations on being great product owners or even just good product owners. That's great too.

[Susan Hughes]

As long as you're a product owner who's not actively working against the team and our healthy practices like, good on you. Thank you.

[Pasco Duarte]

Absolutely. But let's go into that now season and describe what was potentially the best product owner you've ever worked with.

[Susan Hughes]

I can't pick one. Oh my gosh. I am so lucky because I have worked like I'm just seeing them in my Head swirling around so many good product owners, so many. It's. I feel incredibly grateful that the number of product owners who not even just aren't harming the team and it's kind of safety and ways of working, but who are actively contributing towards high performance and just a healthy environment far outweigh any that may be I think taking away from it for whatever reason, just from my consulting practice to being embedded in an organization as a Scrum master, right now as a program manager, I work daily with three product owners who are awesome. I will never stop being grateful for this. So I want to throw it out there. So I cannot pick one. But I can tell you the themes that I see among the great ones and I see that they care. Like, first of all, so when you're a product owner, you're in this role that is about the product and the customers and about vision and metrics and prioritizing the backlog. And what could happen is you're so focused on that product that you can lose sight of people. And the great product owners that I've worked with care about the people on the team and how they are feeling and what they're going through and if they are burned out or stressed. And thinking in particular of two product owners I used to work with, like one who actually used to be an agile coach. So it was really cool working with them because they knew what to bring out in teams or what a healthy environment could look like. And another one who we would be doing retrospectives and a team member would bring something up and they would ask like, oh, tell me more about that. I see that you're feeling this way. Like, he really encouraged the team. And this is like a bunch of really technical engineers like to talk about how you're feeling and demonstrate that. So they, they care about the people on the team and they also care very deeply about customers. Something that worries me is when I'm in an organization that I guess for lack of a better metaphor, like drinks too much of its own Kool Aid. Like any organization that is too internal focused, like, great. You're doing internal product testing. Your employees are going through the app and doing testing or quality assurance and trying to put themselves in the role of customers. Like that's not the same as actual customers using your product. And great product owners I've worked with have advocated for having customers and Sprint reviews or sometimes when that's not possible. I'm thinking of when I worked at Dolby, like they would go out to like really cool, like record companies recording Studios, movie, sound production, video game. Like, as they're making the sound for the video game, product owners would be there listening to the pain points as they're using our products. And then a practical, everyday thing is like, they're always in that backlog. Just. I know it's not as glamorous as, like, going to a famous recording studio, but it's. They don't see it as being beneath them. To make sure that the backlog is prioritized, acceptance criteria is clear that it's in a place where we can react to change. Like, kind of like they're being agile or something like that. What. What a concept. So three commonalities of product owners are caring about the team, the customers, and the backlog. All of them have that.

[Pasco Duarte]

Because at the end of the day, the backlog is the tool, right? The product is the outcome, the backlog is the tool. And it needs to be in shape. Absolutely. Susan, it's been a pleasure. A week filled with insights, but unfortunately we're getting close to the end. But before we go, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing?

[Susan Hughes]

Yeah, I would say LinkedIn is a really great place to connect. I think I'm the only Season Hughes out there, so if you look for me, I should be pretty easy to find or just look for anything nerdy on my profile and you can be sure it's me. But I just wanted to say thank you so much for having me on here. I just. I'm still completely starstruck to be on this podcast. And for all of you Scrum Masters who are out there listening, thank you for your dedication to sharpening your skills. And just know however you're feeling or whatever you're facing, you're not alone and you're out there doing really good work. So thank you to all of you.

[Pasco Duarte]

Absolutely. My thank you to all of you too, Susan. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for being here and being so generous with your time and your knowledge.

[Susan Hughes]

Thank you. Have a great weekend. Everybody ready?

[Pasco Duarte]

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