B (3:22)

Yeah, or the teams working for them, which I sometimes see as well. Well, there's a great. I mean, there are lots of great things. If you take the mantra of design thinking, we're looking at desirability, viability, feasibility. Right. So the desirability, is what we're building, going to provide value to our customers? Will they want to use it? Viability, does it provide value to the business or can the business capture some of that value? Let's put it more precisely. And feasibility, can we do it? I will also nod to Marty Kagan. Throw in usability. Are we building this in a way that's that people can figure out how to use? Those are four big risks we have. Right. So if you then ask the question, well, whose job is it to make sure what we deliver is desirable? I would say it's lots of people's job, but ultimately it's the product owner's job. How about usable designers? Okay, well, that's a developer on the scrum team. Right. So you've already got product owner and developer. How about viable product owner? Again, how about feasible? Probably some. Some technical person on the team, tech lead or a developer. So already you've got product owner, designer, tech lead, who are ultimately responsible for what we deliver. Right. And that sounds a lot like a collaboration or the product trio, as we. As they call it in the product management world. Whether you're doing delivery or you're doing discovery, you can only do that as a team. And it doesn't have to just be those three. By the way, you might want to get some testers and business analysts. Things like, this is a team sport. There are elements of are we building the right thing? There are elements of, are we building the thing right? There are elements or are we effective? But this is a team sport. It's not me do this, you do that. It's like we have to do this together. We have to design experiments and test our assumptions together. We have to deliver together, otherwise it's going to be incoherent. So once they understand that, I think it Just becomes a lot more of a. Oh, we are a product team. We are a scrum team. Our job is to deliver value. Here's my skill set. Here's your skill set.

A (5:22)

I really like that team sport analogy. And my own opinion is that we use it far too little because there's so much powerful insights in that metaphor. We all need to work together. Everybody needs to be good at what they do, but it's together that we deliver all of those aspects. And I'm curious to hear what you would call a great product owner from the perspective of that metaphor. Because this is something I sometimes struggle with. Right. Like, because at the same time we want to talk about this being a team sport, we also want to share great stories of great individuals that did great work, but it's important for us to frame it in the right context. So do you have in mind a product owner that kind of embodies, as a great product owner, still embodies that idea that software is a team sport?

B (6:14)

I have worked with some, I've worked with some wonderful product owners. It's a team sport. But your role on that team is strategic. It's direction, it's what problem are we solving and for whom, and what's our value proposition and what's the business model around it, what's the strategy around it? And how can I collaborate with this other group of awesome people to make that a reality? But I think it's, yeah, I've worked. There aren't loads of them. And the reason there aren't loads of them, I think, is because the industry misunderstands what product owners are. We hear lots of people talk about product owners versus product managers. I mean, a product owner is a product manager. You should be making those decisions. You should be strategic. You shouldn't need to go up to someone else to say, should we do this or should we do that? And so, yeah, I think the ones that focus on the customer, the ones that focus on outcomes, the ones that focus on the strategy and collaborate with the team to make that a reality, are the great product owners with whom I've worked and you know, who I've, who I've worked near and with because I've seen some that I've not worked with, but I've seen.

A (7:17)

So tell us a little bit about that. Like what do great product owners look like when you are working with them and they are exhibiting this perspective that you just shared with us?

B (7:27)

Yeah, they are. They are customer obsessed. Right. They know. And that doesn't have to be external can be an internal customer if you're serving someone intel, but they are obsessed with the purpose of the product, the why of the product, what problem are we solving and for whom? That question. And how can we deliver more value to that group of people? And I think if you start with that as the premise, in Amazon, they call that working backwards. You start with that and it's like, okay, now we're designing solutions in order to do that, whether it's design thinking, product discovery, whatever these techniques are that you would use, you start there and you bring the team along. I said the team has to be obsessed with delivering value to the customer as well. They need to know why they're doing this. Otherwise they're just like, they're just a feature factory. Just build this feature, build that feature. So they're always talking about the customer, they're always talking to the customer. They're always thinking about, how can I solve this problem for my customers, deliver more value for my customers, capture some of that value for the business and how can I get the team working with me to do that? Right. And again, this comes down to you, sort of. You touch on. We touched on David Marquette a couple of times over the week. Then you can, as a product owner, you can let the team come up with ideas because they're so aligned with what we're trying to do that they're going to have great ideas that are in alignment with delivering value to that customer segment. And so you don't have to have every great idea. You don't have to sign everything off because they know too. And so it's collaborative, but you're also leading and you're also painting that picture, that vision of, wouldn't it be great if we solve this? And I just don't see that enough, sadly.

A (9:11)

Yeah, absolutely. These are all great tips. So anyone out there who's struggling with the proctone or not being focused on the most impactful part of their work, just play this episode for them. I think this is such a great, maybe even checklist we could call it, for things to look out for and to work towards. Karim, we're getting close to the end. We really love this week with you and the stories you've shared. But before you go, where can people go if they want to interact with, you know more about what you're doing?

B (9:42)

Well, they can find me on LinkedIn. It's probably the best place. Kareem Harvard. As far as I know, nobody else on LinkedIn or in the world had that name, so I shouldn't be difficult to track down. Connect with me and we'll have a chat. If you're interested in how you create the environment in terms of culture, structure, governance, leadership and hr, and how you create the environment for agility and business agility, then they can check out my book the Six Enablers of Business Agility where I document 15 years worth of messy organizational transformation and the lessons I've learned in there. So you can go and continue continue the reading around some of those things, but just connect and let's chat.

A (10:31)

Yeah, absolutely. Do reach out and ask follow up questions, share ideas and do read the book. The link will be in the show notes to make sure that everybody can easily find it. Karim, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

B (10:46)

Thank you for having me on. I've seen your podcast going for so long and all the awesome people you've had on, so I'm delighted to be one of them now and have made us on. So thanks very much.

A (10:55)

Absolutely. Welcome to the gang. Alright, I hope you liked this episode, but before you hit next episode, here's the deal. This podcast is powered by people like you, the members who wanted more than just inspiration. They wanted real tools and real connection to people who are practicing Agile. Every day we're talking access to over 700 hours of agile Gold, CTO level Strategy talks, Summit keynotes, live workshops, E courses, Deep Dive interviews, books, and if you're into no estimates, we got the pioneers of no Estimates in those Deep Dive interviews as well. Agile Business Intelligence, creating product visions, coaching your product owner courses, you name it. You'll get invites to monthly live Q&As with agile pioneers and practitioners. Plus a private Slack community which is free of all of that AI slop you see everywhere. And of course without the flame wars. It's a community of practitioners that want to learn and throw thrive together. It's the best place to connect with community and learn together. So if this podcast has helped you before, imagine what you will get from this podcast membership. So head on over to scrummastertoolbox.org membership and join the community that's shaping the future of Agile. We have so much for you, so check out all the details@scratch scrummastertoolbox.org membership because listening is great. It's important. But doing it together, that's next level. I'll see you in the community.

B (12:49)

Slack.

A (12:51)

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