Podcast Summary: "From Spreadsheets to Discovery—Helping POs Make the Transition"

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile storytelling from the trenches
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Natalia Curusi
Date: December 19, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves deep into the complexities and evolution of the Product Owner (PO) role, focusing on real-world anti-patterns and exemplary behaviors observed by Agile Coach and Scrum Master Natalia Curusi. Through storytelling and reflection, Natalia and host Vasco Duarte explore what makes and breaks great product ownership, sharing lessons learned about stakeholder management, team alignment, communication, and the importance of coaching skills within Agile teams.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Product Owner Anti-Pattern: "Spreadsheet-PO"

[01:23–07:12]

• Story: Natalia recounts a problematic experience with a PO who was an excellent subject-matter expert but was involuntarily assigned the PO role without adequate training, clear expectations, or support.
• Main Issue: The PO continued to operate in a traditional project management mindset, working off a requirements spreadsheet prepared by a consultancy, while the Agile team progressed with user discovery, feedback, and iterative story development.
• Misalignments:
  • Parallel Tracks: The team and PO worked according to entirely different paradigms (user stories in JIRA vs. spreadsheet requirements).
  • Communication Breakdown: The PO attended reviews but did not articulate her ongoing concerns or needs until late in the process.
• Turning Point: After months, the PO requested the team map all work back to her spreadsheet, which led to significant rework and frustration on both sides.

Notable Quote:

"She brought us like a huge spreadsheet with all the requirements... The team wanted to do UI/UX, user feedback, interviews, discovery... She didn't stop us, but at the end, she wanted everything mapped back to her spreadsheet."
— Natalia Curusi ([04:13])

2. Resolving the Conflict: Managing Relationships Over Winning Battles

[06:11–07:12]

• The team chose not to escalate conflict. Instead, they prioritized maintaining a working relationship, mapped work back to the spreadsheet (even with little perceived value), and satisfied the PO’s request.
• The situation resolved itself organically when the PO eventually left the company.

Notable Quotes:

"Sometimes you need, as a Scrum Master, as a coach, you need to choose your battles. And that was a battle not to choose."
— Natalia Curusi ([06:54])

"We decided to kind of manage the relationship instead of creating a conflict."
— Vasco Duarte ([06:48])

3. Characteristics of an Outstanding Product Owner

[07:37–09:36]

• Natalia’s best PO:
  • Exceptional domain and technical knowledge
  • Excellent stakeholder management
  • Superb communication
  • Coaching ability—even coaching Natalia as a Scrum Master
  • Confident and empowered to make decisions and take risks without excessive escalation
• Career Progression: This PO was subsequently promoted multiple times, highlighting the organizational value of these attributes.

Notable Quote:

"He had all the domain knowledge, technical background... excellent stakeholder management and communication skills... coaching skills as well. At some point, he started to coach myself. That was amazing."
— Natalia Curusi ([08:04])

"He can take the courage to risk and to take the decision himself... the ability to take ownership."
— Vasco Duarte & Natalia Curusi ([09:33])

4. The Essential PO Skills: Communication and Coaching

[09:47–12:10]

• Host Reflection: Vasco emphasizes that besides domain knowledge, communication and coaching are critical skills for POs. Coaching here means guiding stakeholders to make decisions and fostering team alignment, rather than simply dictating.
• Natalia’s Perspective: These skills are not exclusive to formal coaches; anyone on the team, especially POs, benefits from coaching abilities. They help POs mediate stakeholder differences and maintain clarity.

Notable Quote:

"If I would have to design a product owner course, I would start there: the ability to communicate effectively and the ability to coach... to guide decision making processes without necessarily being the one making all of the decisions."
— Vasco Duarte ([10:41])

"You don't need to be a coach to have coaching skills. I think it's useful for any team members... but especially for the product owner because he needs to coach stakeholders, bring them on the same page."
— Natalia Curusi ([11:17])

5. The Courage to Say "No"

[12:10–13:02]

• POs sometimes have to say no to powerful stakeholders (e.g., CTOs) for the product’s best interest. Doing so effectively and diplomatically is a critical but often overlooked aspect.

Notable Quote:

"Just imagine that you need to say no to a very powerful person... you need to have courage to say no sometimes when you could be afraid to."
— Natalia Curusi ([12:27])

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On legacy documentation:

  "Before she was not working on the spreadsheet, she was still working on a spreadsheet. So that was not very pleasant."
  — Natalia Curusi ([04:50])

• On empowerment:

  "Have full empowerment and ownership and decision-making and take the risk when he need to take the risk."
  — Natalia Curusi ([09:16])

• On coaching as an essential Agile skill:

  "Coaching skills are useful for any team member... especially for the product owner because he need[s] to coach the stakeholders."
  — Natalia Curusi ([11:17])

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• [01:23] Introduction to the PO anti-pattern story
• [04:13] Key quote about the spreadsheet situation
• [06:11] How the team resolved the conflict
• [07:37] Natalia describes her most effective PO
• [09:33] Vasco and Natalia discuss ownership
• [10:41] Discussion about communication and coaching as foundational PO skills
• [12:27] Saying no with courage
• [13:33] Natalia shares how to connect with her and her community involvement

Closing

This episode highlights the spectrum of PO effectiveness, from misaligned, overburdened legacy roles to empowered, communicative, and coaching-oriented product leaders. Natalia and Vasco converge on the message that while subject matter expertise is important, it’s communication, guiding decisions, and the courage to own outcomes that define a truly great Product Owner.

For more Agile insights and to connect with Natalia Curusi, find her on LinkedIn or catch her at upcoming conferences in Australia and New Zealand.