From Waterfall to Agile—A Multi-Level Change Strategy | Pascal Papathemelis

Summary

Summary of "From Waterfall to Agile—A Multi-Level Change Strategy | Pascal Papathemelis"

Podcast Title: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Pascal Papathemelis
Release Date: July 9, 2025

In this insightful episode titled "From Waterfall to Agile—A Multi-Level Change Strategy," host Vasco Duarte engages with Pascal Papathemelis to explore the challenges and methodologies involved in transitioning an organization from traditional Waterfall processes to Agile frameworks. Throughout the conversation, Pascal shares practical strategies, personal experiences, and key lessons learned from his hands-on approach to Agile transformation.

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Introduction to Change Leadership

The episode begins with a brief introduction where Pascal emphasizes the concept of "change leadership" over "change management." He argues that effective change involves creating environments where individuals can achieve their goals rather than merely imposing directives.

Pascal Papathemelis:
"Change is a process. It's not something we can somehow design and quote unquote install in a team, an organization, or even for ourselves as individuals."
[01:23]

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Case Study: Agile Transformation in a German Railway's IT Department

Context and Initial Alignment ([01:21] – [02:14])

Pascal recounts his experience working with the IT department of a subsidiary of the German railway company. Alongside a colleague, he aimed to introduce Agile practices into an organization deeply rooted in Waterfall methodologies, characterized by heavy documentation and rigid processes.

Pascal Papathemelis:
"We had an open communication and often when we were both in a meeting, we somehow one took the more forward role... the other one was more on the background observing."
[02:14]

This dual-role strategy allowed them to balance leadership and observation, ensuring that both proactive and passive insights were integrated into the transformation process.

Assessing the Current State and Initial Workshops ([02:14] – [04:34])

The first step involved conducting an assessment of the existing processes and clarifying expectations with all stakeholders. Pascal and his colleague organized a two-day workshop to introduce Agile terminology and principles, such as visualization, push and pull, and identifying sources of waste. This foundational knowledge was crucial for fostering a shared understanding of Agile within the organization.

Pascal Papathemelis:
"We went over a two-day workshop training introducing them the Agile vocabulary... so that they can understand what are the things we are talking about."
[04:34]

Multi-Level Change Strategy ([04:34] – [10:30])

Pascal outlines a three-tiered approach to Agile transformation:

1. Management Level: Strategy to Execution

   • Clarifying Strategy: Translating high-level strategies into actionable projects and activities.
   • Prioritization Techniques: Introducing the MoSCoW method (Must do, Should do, Could do, Won’t do) to help management prioritize tasks effectively.

   Pascal Papathemelis:
   "The Moscow Principle... was quite good for them to understand and based on that make the prioritization."
   [07:00]

2. Team Preparation: Building Agile Practices

   • Creating Product Backlogs: Collaboratively developing a product backlog with the Scrum team.
   • Running Initial Sprints: Facilitating the first few sprints to establish a rhythm and demonstrate Agile benefits.

   Pascal Papathemelis:
   "We created a product backlog for them together and ran a few sprints, mainly by us being the role model of the Scrum Master."
   [06:45]

3. Role Transition: Coaching and Mentoring

   • Selecting Scrum Masters: Identifying and mentoring individuals to take on the Scrum Master role.
   • Hands-On Coaching: Providing real-time feedback and support during initial sprints to build confidence and competence.

   Pascal Papathemelis:
   "We did together a few times and then we let slowly taking more responsibility."
   [08:24]

An illustrative example includes mentoring a new Scrum Master who initially struggled with facilitating exercises. Through positive reflection and continuous support, the Scrum Master improved their facilitation skills.

Pascal Papathemelis:
"We kind of reflected on that with a positive attitude... slowly but slowly the person got better."
[08:30]

Implementing Story Points and Enhancing Team Communication ([10:30] – [11:10])

Pascal discusses the introduction of story points not just as a means of estimation but as a tool to foster deeper team discussions and understanding during backlog refinement. This approach helped the team improve their sprint planning and commitment reliability.

Pascal Papathemelis:
"Our main goal for using story points was not to estimate things beforehand, but to enforce discussion among the team members."
[09:45]

Visualization and Adaptation to Remote Work ([11:10] – [13:07])

Prior to the COVID-19 pandemic, the team was co-located, which facilitated effective communication and visualization of workflows using physical boards and Post-its. Pascal highlights how this emphasis on visualization enabled a smooth transition to remote work by digitizing their visual tools with platforms like Miro.

Pascal Papathemelis:
"We had visualized all the things in a kind of portfolio... and then we had them visually with Post-its and paper."
[12:34]

This adaptability proved crucial during the pandemic, as the team seamlessly transitioned to remote collaboration without significant disruptions.

Pascal Papathemelis:
"They were very good to keep on going, even though Pandemic changed for many other companies."
[12:50]

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Key Learnings and Reflections

Pascal reflects on the success of the Agile transformation, attributing it to the multi-level strategy that involved both management and teams, effective communication, and robust visualization practices. The ability to transition to remote work without losing momentum serves as a testament to the resilience built through Agile principles.

Pascal Papathemelis:
"The key learning from that was that it went so well that they could then very easily adapt to the COVID challenges."
[12:34]

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Conclusion

In "From Waterfall to Agile—A Multi-Level Change Strategy," Pascal Papathemelis provides a comprehensive roadmap for organizations seeking to transition from traditional Waterfall processes to Agile methodologies. His approach underscores the importance of alignment between coaches, clear communication, strategic prioritization, hands-on coaching, and effective visualization. These elements collectively foster a resilient and adaptable Agile culture capable of withstanding unforeseen challenges, such as those presented by the COVID-19 pandemic.

Listeners are equipped with actionable insights and practical techniques that can be tailored to their unique organizational contexts, making this episode a valuable resource for Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches aiming to lead successful Agile transformations.

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Notable Quotes:

• "Change is a process... creating that kind of environment." — Pascal Papathemelis [01:23]
• "We were communicating well and we could spar and give feedback to each other very well." — Pascal Papathemelis [02:14]
• "Our main goal for using story points was not to estimate things beforehand, but to enforce discussion among the team members." — Pascal Papathemelis [09:45]
• "They moved everything then to be digitally because they were good with the visuals." — Pascal Papathemelis [12:34]

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This episode serves as a detailed case study on Agile transformation, offering valuable lessons on leadership, strategy implementation, team dynamics, and adaptability. Whether you're a seasoned Scrum Master or new to Agile coaching, Pascal's experiences provide a roadmap for navigating the complexities of organizational change.

Transcript

[Vasko]

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[Pascal Papatemilis]

Hello everybody. Welcome to our Wednesday the Leading Change episode this week with Pascal Papatemilis. Hey Pascal, welcome back.

[Pascal]

Nice that you have me again.

[Pascal Papatemilis]

So Pascal, Wednesday is of course the big change day here and I like to call it change leadership rather than change management, because a lot of the work that we do is help others achieve what they need to achieve instead of telling them what to do, right? And this is all about creating that kind of environment. But change is a process. It's not something we can somehow design and quote unquote install in a team, an organization, or even for ourselves as individuals. So let's look at a concrete example. Tell us the story of a change process that you were involved with and walk us through those steps one by one as they happened. And as you go through those steps and highlight for us the tools, the tips, the tricks and the techniques you learned back then that you still apply today.

[Pascal]

Yeah, it was some years back when I was working with a colleague, we were like two coaches implementing, how you say, getting more agile and organization. And that organization was the daughter company of the German railway, their IT department. And the first thing that was very good was that me and my colleague had a very good alignment. So we were communicating well and we could spar and give feedback to each other very well. So that way we could always see the signs and react to them by the organization. We had an open communication and often when we were both in a meeting, we somehow one took the more forward role like telling and sharing the new knowledge and facilitating the meeting or what was the role of the agile coach and the other one Was perhaps more on the background observing what was going on. So that way he could like more neutral from the back see what's happening, body language, what other questions, what things might be missed so that we could become better in how we run the things. In that organization they had a very, I would say history of being more like water polish. They had heavy documentation where they would like have things that need to be taken care of and those were specified in a document and then the team needed to take care of those things. So they would make a report based on what they were doing and that would be compared to the specification. If I would say it this way, I don't remember now the exact terms that they used. It sounded to me very bureaucratic. One was a something blah, blah book and the other one was also a book in German. But I that was the only place I've heard this but it sounded.

[Pascal Papatemilis]

So they had a heavy process basically.

[Pascal]

Well it's a process, it's very simple. You get something given to you and then you need to take care of. But life is not as simple and clear because you need to find out what is the solution and you might even don't know what is the solution. If we think about Cynavin we are more operating the complex area and not in the clear area. So as those things they needed to do were new things they needed to do. They did not have a history of how to do that, they did not have best practices. So in, in that change we started with an assessment and discussion and clarifying the expectations and we were involving the management and the a clear representative of the organization, not only the IT people but also business people from that organization. And we went over a two day workshop training introducing them the Agile vocabulary. So things like visualization, push and pull the sources of waste, all those things so that they can understand what are the things we are talking about. And we actually did the change on the 2 level. So one was the more management level, clarifying of what how they could interpret a strategy into projects and activities that could take place. They had a huge list when we did that activity with them and that exercise of what are all the things they needed to do and everything needed to be done at the same time. Then of course we had to teach them and show them that you cannot do everything at the same time. And we did some other simulation exercises where they needed to do several things at the same time. And then if they would do them one after the other but fully focused then they would get better results. That way we could like introduce them the principle of flow to the management. And then we had them visualize their own process of having a starting from the idea when they start the process up to the point when the that the project would like end the process and things would be delivered. So we help them clarify what are the things they know what are the things they need and also prioritize them. A good technique for prioritizing we use there that resonated good with them was the Moscow Principle. Must do, could do, should do, will not do. So that was quite good for them to understand and based on that make the prioritization. At the same time, we worked also with the team and tried to the Scrum team that was there, visualized things and created a product backlog for them together and run a few sprints. Mainly by us being the role model of the Scrum Master and then having a product owner. That's a role we did not take. But we then asked questions so that the product owner, who was also new to that role would understand of what it means to prioritize things.

[Pascal Papatemilis]

And did you have somebody who would then take the Scrum Master role? Or how did you prepare that transition?

[Pascal]

We had a person who took the Scrum Master role. And we had like many.

[Pascal Papatemilis]

One on.

[Pascal]

One sessions with that person explaining why we did certain things. What is the purpose of the retrospective, why we choose different retrospective formats. We run about three sprints, us being the role model. And then we were doing it together with the candidate who was selected by. By the organization to be the new Scrum Master. And we did together a few times. And then we let slowly like taking more responsibility and preparing things. So I can remember one, one meeting where the person thought of a check in exercise and icebreaker that did not go on well. And then we jumped in and then the person was a bit like that did not go on well. And then we said no, next time it will be better. So and we. We. We kind of reflected on that with. With a positive attitude. So what we could do so that next time. And slowly but slowly the person got better. And yeah, so. And. And that was a clear case when. When we started using story points with them. And our main goal for using story points was not to estimate things beforehand, but to enforce based on the story point discussion discussion among the team members to increase the understanding during the refinement process what is coming to that they become better in doing the refinement this way through those discussions. And at the end they were much better in keeping the sprint plan. So what they were planning to be able to have the stories that they committed to completed during the sprint and be able to show that to the stakeholders.

[Pascal Papatemilis]

So from this story I see kind of like three layers of work here. So one was helping the management decide where they want to focus and where they want to put the effort. Then the second is kind of preparing the team for the transition to a new way of working. So creating the vocabulary, sharing with them what certain things might look like, like for example, a backlog, the refinement meeting and so on. And then kind of taking a hands on approach to how the team worked. Modeling the Scrum Master role, helping the product owner grow into that role, and then slowly kind of stepping back and letting the team, the Scrum master, the product owner take over.

[Vasko]

Is that how you would describe it?

[Pascal]

Yes. And that was actually the team we worked with before the COVID Pandemic. And then one thing we used quite heavily was because the team was co located and the management, they were all in the same building. They were very good in then communicating with each other and seeing each other. And we were telling to the po, if you want to be a good po, you need to have, have legs and use your legs to walk around and meet with the stakeholders. And we took a room, which some people were not very happy with, and one corridor. So in the room we had visualized all the things in a kind of a portfolio. If we think about flight levels, it would be the coordination level there we were visualizing all the projects and the workflow of the projects in what state they were. And also we would visualize user story maps into that room. So if the team was preparing for the refinement for next bigger things, then we would have those there. And then we had, in one corridor we had visually and visually, I mean with Post its and paper they would have their backlog and the actual sprint and how they do on that Sprint.

[Pascal Papatemilis]

Yeah, well that's a great story. Thank you for sharing that. And yeah, go ahead.

[Pascal]

I would say the key thing, the key learning from that was that it went so well that they could then very easily adapt to the COVID challenges. So they moved everything then to be digitally because they were good with the visuals. So they then had digitally the visuals on Miro or some other whiteboard and they were very good to keep on going. Even though Pandemic changed for many other companies, things were so they were very resilient in that way.

[Pascal Papatemilis]

That's a very good story that once you know how to visualize, then you can more easily transition to a remote setting because you can build bring that visualization with you. Yes, thank you for sharing that, Pascal.

[Vasko]

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[Pascal Papatemilis]

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