Growing Trust As A Product Owner, A PO Superpower | Gosia Smoleńska

Summary

Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: "Growing Trust As A Product Owner, A PO Superpower" with Gosia Smoleńska

Release Date: November 22, 2024

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte engages in a profound discussion with Gosia Smoleńska, an experienced Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Master. The conversation delves into the pivotal role of a Product Owner (PO) in fostering trust within Scrum teams, exploring both detrimental and exemplary behaviors that significantly impact team dynamics and project success.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode kicks off with Vasco Duarte welcoming listeners to the TGIF Product Owner edition, emphasizing the critical role POs play in the success of Scrum teams. Gosia Smoleńska joins the conversation to share her experiences and insights on building trust as a Product Owner.

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2. The Worst Product Owner Anti-Pattern

Gosia opens the discussion by recounting an alarming anti-pattern she encountered in her career:

Gosia Smoleńska [00:58]:
"So the product owner stays in the meeting room and he swipes the items on the wall because he thinks that estimates from the team are too small."

In this scenario, during an affinity estimation meeting for upcoming features, the PO manipulates the team's estimates without their knowledge. Despite the team providing high-level estimates, the PO alters these figures post-meeting to present inflated numbers to the business stakeholders. This deceit undermines the team's input and creates a rift between the PO and the team.

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3. Impact on Team Trust and Dynamics

The host probes deeper into the implications of such behavior:

Unknown Host [03:05]:
"And of course this is now the estimation is, if I understood you correctly, larger, longer than what the team had said it would take, right?"

Gosia confirms and elaborates on how this manipulation erodes trust:

Gosia Smoleńska [04:03]:
"For me, it's like, where is the trust? You are experts in your field and I am expert in my field and I do trust you. But you also have to trust me when I'm telling you that, for example, we have no budget for one more person."

This action not only disenfranchises the team but also places undue responsibility on the PO, distancing the team from ownership of their estimates and decisions.

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4. Handling Poor Product Owner Behavior

When confronted with the PO's actions, Gosia took proactive steps to address the issue:

Gosia Smoleńska [05:07]:
"I did challenge him on that. Like, why didn't you challenge the team?"

Despite initial resistance, Gosia persisted in challenging the PO's decisions, encouraging him to empathize with the team and recognize the importance of transparency. This approach aimed to cultivate a culture of mutual respect and open communication.

However, the situation revealed deeper insecurities and fears on the PO's part, particularly concerning budget constraints and customer relations. Gosia emphasizes the necessity of addressing such underlying issues to restore trust:

Gosia Smoleńska [07:15]:
"He was expressing the fears that, oh, customers will not give me more money anymore if we will fail."

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5. Celebrating Excellent Product Owners

Transitioning from negative experiences, Gosia shares her experiences with exemplary Product Owners who excel in building and maintaining trust within their teams:

Gosia Smoleńska [09:12]:
"...they were always open, they were always straight to the point with the team and they were always presenting the customer's voice to the team."

These POs demonstrated unwavering trust in their teams, facilitated open dialogue, and actively involved customers to provide genuine feedback. Their transparent approach ensured that the team remained aligned with both customer needs and company goals.

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6. Exemplary Practices of Top Product Owners

Gosia provides concrete examples of what made these POs exceptional:

• Involving Customers Directly:
  They invited actual customers to interact with the team, sharing both positive experiences and challenges. This direct feedback loop helped the team understand the real-world impact of their work.

  Gosia Smoleńska [11:45]:
  "He was inviting actual customers to talk to the team and tell them, 'Hey, this is what customer wants. This is what we think we will be delivering.'"

• Aligning Features with Business Goals:
  By conducting "jobs to be done" analyses, these POs ensured that features aligned with the company's vision and strategy, making informed decisions about feature prioritization.

• Transparent Reporting:
  Every quarter, the PO presented how each feature contributed financially to the company, whether through increased earnings or highlighting areas of loss. This transparency reinforced the significance of the team's work and its direct impact on the business.

  Gosia Smoleńska [12:51]:
  "Every quarter when we were closing quarter, he was presenting how our features contributed financially to the company."

These practices not only fostered trust but also empowered teams by providing clarity and purpose in their work.

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7. Conclusion and Key Takeaways

As the episode wraps up, Gosia emphasizes the importance of trust, transparency, and open communication in the role of a Product Owner. She highlights that fostering a trusting environment leads to more engaged teams, better decision-making, and ultimately, successful project outcomes.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own practices as POs, considering whether they are empowering their teams or inadvertently creating barriers to trust and collaboration.

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8. About Gosia Smoleńska

Gosia Smoleńska is an accomplished Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Master specializing in Kanban and Cultural Differences workshops. She is active on LinkedIn and welcomes connections for discussions on Agile methodologies and team dynamics.

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Key Quotes from the Episode

• Gosia Smoleńska [00:58]:
  "The product owner stayed in the meeting room and he swipes the items on the wall because he thinks that estimates from the team are too small."

• Unknown Host [03:05]:
  "And of course this is now the estimation is, if I understood you correctly, larger, longer than what the team had said it would take, right?"

• Gosia Smoleńska [04:03]:
  "Where is the trust? You are experts in your field and I am expert in my field and I do trust you."

• Gosia Smoleńska [05:07]:
  "I did challenge him on that. Like, why didn't you challenge the team?"

• Gosia Smoleńska [09:12]:
  "They were always open, they were always straight to the point with the team and they were always presenting the customer's voice to the team."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast offers valuable lessons on the significance of trust in the Product Owner role. By sharing real-world examples of both poor and outstanding PO behaviors, Gosia Smoleńska provides actionable insights for Scrum Masters and POs aiming to enhance team dynamics and project success. Whether you're grappling with trust issues within your team or striving to embody the qualities of an exceptional Product Owner, this episode serves as an essential guide to navigating and excelling in the Agile landscape.

For more enriching conversations and expert advice, subscribe to the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast and join a community dedicated to continuous improvement and Agile excellence.

Transcript

[Vasco Duart]

Hi, I'm your host, Vasco Duart. Welcome to the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast where we share tips and tricks from Scrum Masters around the world. Every day we bring you inspiring answers to important questions that all Scrum Masters.

[Unknown Host]

Face day after day. Hello everybody. Welcome to our TGIF product owner episode. This week we have with us Gosia Smolenska. Hey, Gossia. Welcome back.

[Gosia Smolenska]

Hello. On Friday.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. Happy Friday, everybody. So we talk product owners on Friday because the product owner is a critical role for the success of a Scrum team. And obviously we know that there are some awesome product owners out there, but not all are awesome. We'll talk about an awesome product owner in a minute. But first, Gorsia, share with us the worst product owner anti pattern you've witnessed in your career.

[Gosia Smolenska]

Sure. So we are in the meeting which was affinity estimation for upcoming feature because we supposed to give the high level estimation on how much it will take. Is it really necessary to do it? Maybe we should cut some scope because we, the company will not pay for it because of many reasons. So we do the affinity estimation. We go through silently estimating the items, then for po, challenging the estimates and then we end up with some high level estimates from the team for all the feature and then it's done. And product owner stays in the meeting room and he swipes the items on the wall because he thinks that estimates from the team are too small. He knows that it will not be delivered. So he didn't challenge that during the challenge part. He didn't talk about it with the team. He just said, oh, I will not show it to the business, I will make it more so what to do in this situation?

[Unknown Host]

That's quite an amazing story. So the product owner went through the whole process of doing the affinity estimation as you said, had conversations with the team about the topics, but that's it. The numbers were on the board saying, okay, this takes that much, this takes that much. And then when the team leaves the room, the PO just goes and wipes it out of the whiteboard.

[Gosia Smolenska]

Yes. And team doesn't really know that it was changed. And they will probably never know because the presentations he's showing to the business team is not there. So business gets totally different estimation than the team gate. Wow.

[Unknown Host]

And of course this is now the estimation is, if I understood you correctly, larger, longer than what the team had said it would take, right?

[Gosia Smolenska]

Yes, yes, yes. Right.

[Unknown Host]

But the team doesn't know.

[Gosia Smolenska]

Team doesn't know.

[Unknown Host]

Wow. How does the product owner then manage the relationship with the team, given that they know that they've given a different number or price to the business compared to what the team gave them, they.

[Gosia Smolenska]

Will never know because business is outside of the company. So they actually are not in the meetings. But I was there and I saw. So for me, it's like, as you said, where is the trust? Where is this trust in? You are experts in your field and I am expert in my field and I do trust you. But you also have to trust me when I'm telling you that, for example, we have no budget for one more person. Wow. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So the product owner basically disenfranchised the team. Like literally, the team could have said anything and they would have just done something else.

[Gosia Smolenska]

Exactly, exactly.

[Unknown Host]

How did you handle that? Because that must not have been easy for you.

[Gosia Smolenska]

It was not easy. I did challenge him on that. Like, why didn't you challenge the team? You had this part of challenging the team and the answer was like, oh, I know the business, I know that we have to be careful and save with the business. And then how you can actually speak with that. So what is left for you is to actually coach the product owner on how would you feel if someone did that to you? How would you feel if team would make bigger estimates and didn't tell you that? Or how would you like to hear from the team that estimates are wrong? So anything that putting him in the situation instead of a team.

[Unknown Host]

And another thing that comes to my mind is that the product owner is basically taking on all the responsibility right after that.

[Vasco Duart]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

Like you remove the team's input, bring your own input, whether it's larger or shorter, it doesn't matter in the end. But the PO is taking all of the responsibility. In fact, they are replacing the team with their own thoughts.

[Gosia Smolenska]

Exactly, exactly. And then you can always go this way and ask him. So would you really write this code if you know the estimates? Because you know, you think it's like this, so maybe you can do it.

[Unknown Host]

What did the PO say? Did you ask that question?

[Gosia Smolenska]

Yes, I did.

[Unknown Host]

What did the PO say?

[Gosia Smolenska]

He was not happy. And he said that this is a conversation for another time. But we came back to the conversation after two weeks because of some holidays and stuff like that. And I did ask this question one again. Once again. And he said that he was not aware that it. It's like when he changed it, he's taking the whole responsibility on himself. He didn't thought about this this way. He rather thought about keeping the team safe, keeping the team safe from the pressure. But from the other hand, it's like you show these numbers, you know that your team said something different. Where is you and the team? Is it like you are the father of small children and you have to always protect them or is it like you don't want to be fooled in the faces of customer?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, but of course this has, I mean, changing the estimates in the end has no impact on the relationship with the customer if the team isn't committed to the estimates. Right. Because the P.O. let's assume that the best case happens, the team does deliver in the time they thought it would deliver and that's significantly shorter than what the PO said. How's the PO going to tell to the customer that, hey, we thought it was going to cost, I don't know, 100,000, but it actually only cost 50,000. Yeah.

[Gosia Smolenska]

And it did end up with team actually delivering even shorter that than estimated. So they did deliver even, I think it was 70% of what the product owner said. And exactly there is this conversation. Are you sure it was a good job you did? Are you sure it was a good move you did? And maybe now is the time that you speak about it with the team and you speak about the insecurities that led you to do that because you know, there was again, probably some fears behind that and he expressed them. He expressed the fears that, oh, customers will not give me more money anymore if we will fail. That. So there was probably a lot of in the background, I felt that there was not really too much trust among them. So not only team members, but product owner team members, because if they would have trust, he would be open with them. Hey, I'm afraid of that. And they will be like, we already put safe score here because we know this conversation didn't happen. This happened after they delivered and it ended up with they deciding not to use story points anymore. But I think, and this is what I express, it could have been done.

[Unknown Host]

Much earlier and definitely much more respectfully rather than going behind the team's back. But not all product owners are difficult or not so good. Some are actually excellent at what they do. And that's what we want to celebrate here to end our week. Gorcia share with us the best product owner you've ever worked with. How did they work?

[Gosia Smolenska]

There are actually two names in my head when I think about the best product owner. And every time I see a product owner, I hope, oh, the person could be like this one. I know. And those were the people who had trust in the team. And wherever team was saying they did challenge that because they were not like taking everything and like, okay, I have no, no, nothing to say. They did challenge, but they were respectful with challenging the team. They were open about demands like, hey, this is what I need. Or just check this because I don't know if I want to invest in this area. I just want to know how big is that? So they were always open, they were always straight to the point with the team and they were always presenting the customer's voice to the team, like, hey, this is what customer wants. This is what we think we will be delivering. And they even did jobs to be done to understand what is the need and how does it go with the company goals. Because sometimes there are jobs to be done, but they are not really in line with the company vision and strategy. And then you need to decide where to go. They were doing customer invite the customers. So they were inviting actual customers to talk to the team and tell them, hey, your feature help us in this way. And thanks to that, we do this. I remember there was a situation that we had one customer who totally struggled. It was our internal customer. We were doing some invoicing tool and they were like, we have no idea how to do it. We lost so many times, so much time. And it was. The tool was really easy. And he sent one QA person to finance and the QA person was like, show me what you do. Show me how do you use this tool. Turns out they had no idea that they have so many features and actually everything they do manually can be automated in this tool. So I think it was great from his perspective to not only show customer to the team and show the team that, hey, we are. Your. Your tools are great, we are using them. It's perfect, we love it. But also he was showing, oh, it's not great. He was showing failure stories. We need your help. It's. It's totally bad. I don't know how to use it. It's not helping me. It's making my, my work a nightmare. And he was actually doing this breach and he was telling our team, as these are the experts who can help you, so please be clear and tell them what do you need? And also what was the great thing Every quarter when we were closing quarter, he was presenting how our features contributed financially to the company. So if there was, for example, plus 10% in earnings in the survey, he was presenting that. If it was 5% lost, he was presenting that. And it helps to keep people constantly remembering that we are doing features for people. It's not like Someone outside of the screen will be using that. It's people, actual people, human being. So it was great.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, real people will use our features. That's a great message for the product owners to be able to bring to the team and also illustrate that with customers that come in and share their experience with the team as well. That was a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that, Kosje.

[Gosia Smolenska]

Sure.

[Unknown Host]

So Kosia, we're getting close to the end, but before we go, where can people find out more about you and the work that you're doing?

[Gosia Smolenska]

I think in LinkedIn and this is the only place I use because I try to not use laptop outside of my work. So feel free to find me in LinkedIn. Feel free to drop me a message if you want to discuss any broad communication. I also do workshops from Kanban and from Cultural Differences, so I'm really happy to speak about those two topics. I love them.

[Unknown Host]

Awesome. Gosh. Absolutely. We'll put the link on the show notes so that people can go and contact you and ask follow up questions about the Kanban training or the cultural workshops. Why not everybody reach out? And Gosha, thank you very much for your generosity with your time and your knowledge.

[Gosia Smolenska]

Thank you. Thank you for having me here. It was exciting. Actually.

[Vasco Duart]

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