Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast: Agile Storytelling from the Trenches
Episode: Helping PO’s Move Beyond User Story Templates to True Customer Understanding | Anuj Ojha
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Anuj Ojha
Release Date: March 7, 2025

Introduction

In this insightful episode of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast, host Vasco Duarte engages in a profound conversation with Anuj Ojha, an experienced Agile Coach and Certified Scrum Master. The discussion centers around empowering Product Owners (POs) to transcend the conventional confines of user story templates and cultivate a deeper, more empathetic understanding of their customers.

Identifying Anti-Patterns in Product Ownership

Anuj Ojha begins by highlighting prevalent anti-patterns that hinder Product Owners from effectively fulfilling their roles:

• Overemphasis on Documentation: Anuj observes that some POs prioritize writing extensive user stories over comprehensively understanding customer needs.

  "Don't focus more on writing documents where the whole point was not to have just enough documentation, but we see that we are focusing more on writing the documents instead of understanding the problem and spending more time over it."
  [04:24]

• Lack of Discovery Mindset: POs often jump directly into backlog creation without engaging in essential discovery activities, such as identifying personas, mapping user journeys, and conducting empathy exercises.

  "Without all this, why are you jumping directly to create a user story? And firstly, who told you that the user story is a part of a scrum, though it's not."
  [03:30]

• Acting as Translators: Some POs become mere translators of customer demands into tickets, neglecting to probe deeper into the underlying problems and customer motivations.

  "They have been asked to do a certain job. Now again, understand product owners should be asked to do a job. No, no, no. Product owner should be the person who should go everywhere possible to identify what all things I need to do to get my goal achieved."
  [05:30]

Strategies to Shift PO Mindset Towards Customer Understanding

Vasco Duarte inquires about actionable strategies to help POs overcome these anti-patterns. Anuj offers several approaches:

• Asking the Right Questions: Encouraging POs to delve deeper by questioning the 'why' behind customer requests can foster a more analytical and empathetic approach.

  "Ask them or train them about certain fundamentals which because of which we have missed the outcome in a possible way."
  [05:35]

• Engaging Directly with Customers: Anuj emphasizes the importance of POs spending time with customers to observe their behaviors and gather firsthand insights.

  "We have sent our product owner to the customer's place first and stay some time with them and just observe how they are doing, what they are doing."
  [06:45]

• Collaborative Sprint Planning: Instead of merely listing tickets, POs should initiate discussions about the project's vision, past achievements, and future goals to align the team towards meaningful outcomes.

  "Stop it. Talk about why we started this project. Talk about where have we reached in the journey of the project. Talk about what we will achieve at the end of the Sprint will help us into taking the next three steps."
  [07:30]

• Categorizing Requirements: Introducing indicators such as reactive, responsive, and proactive for each requirement helps in understanding their origins and steering the product development accordingly.

  "We asked the product owner to put three indicators in front of all the requirements. Indicator 1 reactive, then responsive and then proactive."
  [08:00]

Characteristics of Effective Product Owners

Anuj shares qualities that distinguish exemplary Product Owners:

• Visionary Leadership: Effective POs articulate a clear vision and set attainable goals without micromanaging the solution space.

  "The product owner was mindful to talk about the first MVP... but let the team come in together and identify how are we going to address it."
  [09:30]

• Ownership of Problem Space: By owning the problem space and allowing the team to own the solution space, POs foster innovation and collective problem-solving.

  "I am not going to go into the solution space. I will stay in the problem space... you are the owner of the solution space and I'm the owner of the problem space."
  [10:10]

• Relationship Building: Establishing trust-based partnerships with stakeholders and customers shifts interactions from transactional to collaborative, enhancing overall product quality and customer satisfaction.

  "When you move on from a transactional relationship towards trusting partner relationship, I believe the game changes the very moment it happens."
  [11:30]

• Prioritization Skills: Utilizing frameworks like Eisenhower’s Matrix helps POs discern between urgent and important tasks, ensuring that the team focuses on what truly matters.

  "Eisenhower's metrics... what to do to the T this person was following it and in the end was very careful that we all may be wrong and in the strategy ensure to fail faster continuously."
  [10:50]

The Importance of Building Relationships

Anuj underscores that software development is fundamentally about people and their interactions. By fostering strong relationships with customers, analytics teams, and internal stakeholders, POs can better align product outcomes with customer needs.

• Trusted Partnerships Over Transactions: Building deeper connections means POs can anticipate and adapt to customer needs more effectively, leading to products that genuinely solve customer problems.

  "This is about building relationship. It's also not about digressing... trusted partners and vice versa."
  [11:00]

• Customer-Centric Approach: Understanding that software is merely a tool to achieve broader business goals helps POs and teams focus on delivering real value rather than just functional features.

  "Software is not the goal. The goal is something else like reduce costs, increase customer acquisition, lower bugs, whatever the outcome is."
  [12:00]

Conclusion and Call to Action

As the episode wraps up, Vasco invites listeners to connect with Anuj Ojha and explore further resources:

• Connect with Anuj: Listeners can find more about Anuj’s work at benzene.com and connect with him on LinkedIn as provided in the show notes.

• Global Agile Summit Promotion: Anuj briefly mentions the upcoming Global Agile Summit in Tallinn, Estonia, encouraging listeners to attend for deeper insights and networking opportunities.

"We're benzene.com, we are a team of consultants and we look forward to making a mark in this world. With our small firm, if we could make some relevant change, we'll be very helpful."
[12:37]

Vasco concludes by emphasizing the value of attending the Global Agile Summit for those experiencing Agile fatigue, promising real-life success stories and transformative insights.

Key Takeaways:

1. Beyond Templates: Product Owners should move past merely writing user stories and engage deeply with customer needs and journeys.
2. Discovery and Empathy: Engaging in discovery activities like persona development and user journey mapping is crucial for creating meaningful products.
3. Collaborative Leadership: Effective POs lead by setting visions and empowering teams to develop solutions collaboratively.
4. Relationship Building: Transitioning from transactional to trust-based relationships with customers enhances product relevance and satisfaction.
5. Continuous Learning: Attending events like the Global Agile Summit can provide fresh perspectives and solutions to common Agile challenges.

Resources:

• Anuj Ojha’s Consulting Firm: benzene.com
• Global Agile Summit: globalagilesummit.com

Stay tuned for more episodes of the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast for actionable advice and inspiring conversations to elevate your Agile practices.