Episode Overview

Podcast: Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast
Host: Vasco Duarte
Guest: Alex Sloley, Agile Coach
Date: October 24, 2025
Episode Theme:
This episode explores how Scrum Masters and Agile Coaches can coach Product Owners (POs) who inadvertently fall into the anti-pattern of treating developers like mindless robots. Through horror stories and success cases, Alex Sloley draws out how trust, communication, and the core values of Scrum can repair and elevate the PO-team relationship.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Product Owner Anti-Pattern: The Command-and-Control PO

[01:50 - 05:22]

• Alex’s Horror Story:
  Alex describes observing a PO who dominated the Sprint Planning, assigning specific tasks to each developer and dictating how the work should be completed, including technical details:

  • "The developers on the team might as well have been like mindless robots because they were being assigned all the work, told how much work they could do in a sprint, what the work was, and they were helpless, unable to resist."
    (Alex, 02:40)

• The Scrum Master in this setup was passive, making the situation worse.

• Potential causes:

  • Ex-project manager mindset
  • Previous broken trust
  • Emotional baggage or organizational trauma

• Alex’s Approach:

  1. Build trust with the PO: Took the PO out for coffee and informal chats.

  2. Frame the problem as the PO’s challenge, not the team’s:

     • "Maybe this impediment is the impediment for the product owner, not the team."
       (Alex, 03:33)

  3. Invite the PO to trust the team:

     • "Why do you have to do all this stuff? Can't you trust the team to help you out with this?"
       (Alex, 04:13)

  4. Encourage relaxation and delegation:

     • "Maybe if you let the team do some of this for you...you would have time to like, relax and chill and like, maybe have some downtime and you don't have to do everything."
       (Alex, 04:20)

2. Resolution: Shifting Trust and Responsibility

[05:22 - 07:22]

• The PO was open to the suggestion and tried stepping back, trusting the team to self-organize.

• The developers rose to the occasion, accomplishing the work effectively.

• "It was never really about a trust issue in the first place...They thought they needed to do all that stuff, but when they sat back and let the team do it, the team was pretty good at it."
  (Alex, 05:55)

• The change happened simply by reframing the roles and responsibilities, and by supporting both the PO and the team through the transition.

• Key Takeaway:
  Focus first on building trust with the PO, then extend that trust to the team, which can dramatically shift team dynamics for the better.

3. Exemplary Product Owner Case Study

[07:22 - 12:54]

• Alex’s Best PO:
  Story from 2011, in a client-services environment.

  • The client’s representative became PO with no prior Agile experience.
  • Alex, as Scrum Master, gently coached her through the Scrum process.

• Lightbulb Moment:
  At the first Sprint Review, the PO saw tangible product increments and realized quick, valuable delivery was possible.

  • "She could touch it and she could see it and she could get feedback on it, and her head exploded. She was like, oh, my gosh, I've never seen this before."
    (Alex, 08:30)

• Transformational Engagement:
  The PO became a passionate proponent of Agile, actively participating and championing the process in her organization.

• Embodiment of Scrum Values:
  The story is framed around the five Scrum values:

  1. Focus – letting the team plan and commit to Sprint work.
  2. Commitment – attending all events and engaging with developers.
  3. Openness – embracing new working methods.
  4. Respect – making space for the team to succeed.
  5. Courage – trying out a completely new way of working.

• "She evolved into a hardcore champion and demonstrated how a great product owner and a team could work together."
  (Alex, 11:23)

• Coaching Tip:
  "What tools or techniques or practices or processes can you help your product owner with that emphasizes these five values?"
  (Alex, 12:18)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• POs Are Not Villains:
  "The product owner is not the problem here...maybe this impediment is the impediment for the product owner, not the team."
  (Alex, 03:33)

• Transformative Power of Trust:
  "All I did was shift the framing for, like, how can I help the product owner and give them value and then ask them to trust?"
  (Alex, 06:41)

• On Values-Led Coaching:
  "Work the other way around. Think about the practices, the techniques and the processes that will naturally and automatically build those five values in your product owner."
  (Alex, 12:22)

• Action over Analysis:
  "We can't think our way into a new way of acting, but we can act our way into a new way of thinking."
  (Vasco, 12:54; attributing the idea to David Marquet)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:50] PO anti-pattern: Command-and-control horror story
• [03:33] Reframing the issue as a PO impediment
• [05:22] PO’s reaction and the process of building trust
• [07:22] Best PO story: New to Agile, values-based transformation
• [11:23] PO becomes an Agile champion in the organization
• [12:18] Advice for Scrum Masters: Coach POs through values-driven tools and practices
• [12:54] Reflections on changing behavior through practice

Actionable Takeaways

• For Scrum Masters/Agile Coaches:

  • Build trust first with POs; frame challenges as collaborative.
  • Encourage POs to delegate and empower teams, relieving themselves of needless burden and enabling better team performance.
  • Anchor coaching practices in the five Scrum values: commitment, focus, openness, respect, courage.

• For Product Owners:

  • Trust your teams; step back to let them self-organize and demonstrate their capability.
  • Engage actively with Scrum events and give yourself permission to learn and adapt.
  • Use early tangible outcomes (like Sprint Reviews) to anchor belief in the process.

Additional Resources Mentioned

• David Marquet’s book, "Turn the Ship Around" and his podcast episodes on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast:

  • "If you want to read another book, Marquet's book is in my top five for sure." (Alex, 13:25)

• Alex Sloley’s channels:

  • LinkedIn
  • Website
  • Book available on Amazon

Summary:
This episode is a practical guide for Scrum Masters looking to improve team dynamics through the lens of Product Owner behavior. By focusing on trust, reframing impediments, and anchoring coaching in core Scrum values, even entrenched anti-patterns can be resolved, leading to more productive and inspired teams.